Issue 12 Discussion: Hollows Zone Makeover
By
Aakan,
Posted on: 2008-03-12 09:27 in Developers' Corner
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Hollows 5-15
Faultline 15-25
Croatoa 25-35
RWZ 35-50
Four zones, each with four story arcs, three with detectives, all (soon) with hospitals. A nice streamline path from 5 to 50.
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This. Toss in Midnight Squad content at 10 and 35 to supplement, and Tuncer's a happy, happy boy.
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Forgot Striga Isle (20-29) on the list too 
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I'm not sure it's a detective. I suspect it will be like Borea in the RWZ, just missions to do.
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It's not the nature of the contact that bothers me GDon, but the idea of having repeatable missions in the Hollows of any kind.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
Unless the repeatable missions are for the higher end of The Hollows (low to mid teens) and send you to the far corner of the map (away from the Atlas gate), I have to agree with Doc Scorpion. The Hollows' regular contacts of Wincott, Julius the Troll et al will be ditched in favor of running endless repeatable missions for the quick and easy payoff.
It's funny, I was really looking forward to getting scanner missions in CoH but in hindsight I think they've actually diminished the play experience both because the missions themselves are short and utterly generic (save for foiling the bank/store robbery) and have all but replaced contact missions on virtually every PuG I get invited to.
Players will take the most expedient route if you let them and the devs have given them exactly that in short, repeatable missions. In CoV the problem doesn't seem as acute, perhaps because I both team less villainside and because the newspaper there is integrated into the contact system instead of being an adjunct to it as it is heroside.
Lose Frostfire and the Trial, never happen. They'll never throw away story arcs, not since we now can do them in flashback.
The Hollows was the prototype for self contained mission zones that directly lead to the zone designs of CoV. It was also considered an alternate and more challenging path than the KR/Steel/Skyway contacts to get to the mid teens back before the difficulty slider and auto EB/AV scaling.
As for poor baby newbies, listen buster I did the Hollows back in the days were debt was level 5, full debt in missions and the mobs near the Atlas gate were a lot worse. I ran back to that gate so many times I lost count. I simply believe that the data mining has shown a downturn in the use of that zone, possibly because if you get "stuck" there you miss out on the temp travel powers and lets face it, with temp travel powers that zone is so much friendlier to the low levels. I remember the first winter event when everybody got jingle jet backs, the skies over the hollows were full of players jetting to and fro and the Hollows was "fun".
Since in all likelihood players will still have to exit the zone to train and sell the local rez point is only useful for the "Darwin Award" style players or the ones who simply blindly or unluckily leapt over the wrong fence or turned down the wrong ally. Yes those players do get a break but so do teams who lose a member mid mission and have to wait 5 minutes for them to cross Atlas and rezone, that time will be reduced (of course your teams may simply ignore the down teammate and continue to play on, which I consider rude).
Boomtown never ever had the traffic that the Hollows had at one time. Other than the security chief mission and a few missions that send you into that zone, people simply don't go in there to play. Someday it'll get the Faultline treatment and be an interesting place to go but if nothing else it's a reminder of the devastation of the original Rikti invasion.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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Unless the repeatable missions are for the higher end of The Hollows (low to mid teens) and send you to the far corner of the map (away from the Atlas gate), I have to agree with Doc Scorpion. The Hollows' regular contacts of Wincott, Julius the Troll et al will be ditched in favor of running endless repeatable missions for the quick and easy payoff.
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But players can already do that with Radio mission in King's Row, Steel and Skyway. That is, if they realize they don't have to stay in the Hollows until level 15...
Some players will go for the easy route, as they do now, but others will still want to hang out with Frostfire, Atta and the rest.
If the Hollows spawn groups become reasonable, I might just head in there to check things out. Normally I avoid the Hollows with my lower level characters.
Thanks goodness, I hated Hollows lol it was to hard to get around.
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Unless the repeatable missions are for the higher end of The Hollows (low to mid teens) and send you to the far corner of the map (away from the Atlas gate), I have to agree with Doc Scorpion. The Hollows' regular contacts of Wincott, Julius the Troll et al will be ditched in favor of running endless repeatable missions for the quick and easy payoff.
It's funny, I was really looking forward to getting scanner missions in CoH but in hindsight I think they've actually diminished the play experience both because the missions themselves are short and utterly generic (save for foiling the bank/store robbery) and have all but replaced contact missions on virtually every PuG I get invited to.
Players will take the most expedient route if you let them and the devs have given them exactly that in short, repeatable missions. In CoV the problem doesn't seem as acute, perhaps because I both team less villainside and because the newspaper there is integrated into the contact system instead of being an adjunct to it as it is heroside.
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Actually, you level faster doing good contact missions. Especially ones with AVs or huge [censored] maps. If I start a PuG I usually try to snag a contact or two before starting it, and just run the contact until it's dry. I find people stick with the team longer that way anyway.
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Unless the repeatable missions are for the higher end of The Hollows (low to mid teens) and send you to the far corner of the map (away from the Atlas gate), I have to agree with Doc Scorpion. The Hollows' regular contacts of Wincott, Julius the Troll et al will be ditched in favor of running endless repeatable missions for the quick and easy payoff.
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But players can already do that with Radio mission in King's Row, Steel and Skyway. That is, if they realize they don't have to stay in the Hollows until level 15...
Some players will go for the easy route, as they do now, but others will still want to hang out with Frostfire, Atta and the rest.
If the Hollows spawn groups become reasonable, I might just head in there to check things out. Normally I avoid the Hollows with my lower level characters.
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Right, I'm just thinking most players will go for the easy route, not just some. Not a concern if you mostly solo, of course, but it's more problematic if you PuG.
XaoGarrent:
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Actually, you level faster doing good contact missions. Especially ones with AVs or huge [censored] maps. If I start a PuG I usually try to snag a contact or two before starting it, and just run the contact until it's dry. I find people stick with the team longer that way anyway.
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Even if that's accurate, it doesn't seem to be the perception on the teams I get invites to.
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Players will take the most expedient route if you let them and the devs have given them exactly that in short, repeatable missions. In CoV the problem doesn't seem as acute, perhaps because I both team less villainside and because the newspaper there is integrated into the contact system instead of being an adjunct to it as it is heroside.
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Actually, I just try to avoid the mission chains that send you from Zone A (where your contact is) then to Zone B, then back to the contact, then to Zone C, then back to the contact, then to Zone D... et cetera. If the contacts would allow you to call them after the first mission, and would predominantly give mission within the same zone that the contact is located in, then I'd be much much more willing to run through regular contacts.
That's why Faultline and Striga contacts tend to get a lot more patronage from heroes, and why villains tend to actually pay attention to their contacts instead of focusing on the newspaper. Inconvenience does not equal content, or challenge - it is just inconvenience.
There is no reason why, when you are willing to put yourself in harm's way at a contact's behest, they shouldn't answer their [expletive deleted] phone for you.
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(QR)
Yay! I hope they change the Cavern of Transcendence Trial as part of this change.
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PLEASE BABY JEEBAS... PLEASE!!!!!
Indig , Leader of the City of Gaymers
City of Gaymers on Guildportal.com
http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.asp...3&TabID=295104
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They need to add a GM to the zone. Maybe a giant troll named Grendel that spawns down in the gulch.
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My vote is that the trolls are being run out of their caverns by giant radioactive (can you say toxic damage) ANTS! The Ant Queen GM spawns ants mobs by the gazillions.
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
Indig 
, leader of the City of Gaymers
City of Gaymers on Guildportal.com
http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.asp...3&TabID=295104
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War Witch, Level Designer who's doing the Hollows Gameplay Makeover, wanted me to point out that the changes are to address spawns and that there are no significant art changes (like moving buildings, etc.) being done with the changes.
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Psst....pssst!
::whisper:: Tell her about the giant ants! LOL
Indig , leader of the City of Gaymers
City of Gaymers on Guildportal.com
http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.asp...3&TabID=295104
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They need to add a GM to the zone. Maybe a giant troll named Grendel that spawns down in the gulch.
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My vote is that the trolls are being run out of their caverns by giant radioactive (can you say toxic damage) ANTS! The Ant Queen GM spawns ants mobs by the gazillions.
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
Indig , leader of the City of Gaymers
[/ QUOTE ]Umm, Grendel's Gulch was named for the Troll taht Atta beat (presumeably killed) in Grendel's Gulch, the former leader of the Troll's. You can read it on the exploration badge 'Seaker of Monsters'.
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Players will take the most expedient route if you let them and the devs have given them exactly that in short, repeatable missions. In CoV the problem doesn't seem as acute, perhaps because I both team less villainside and because the newspaper there is integrated into the contact system instead of being an adjunct to it as it is heroside.
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Actually, I just try to avoid the mission chains that send you from Zone A (where your contact is) then to Zone B, then back to the contact, then to Zone C, then back to the contact, then to Zone D... et cetera. If the contacts would allow you to call them after the first mission, and would predominantly give mission within the same zone that the contact is located in, then I'd be much much more willing to run through regular contacts.
That's why Faultline and Striga contacts tend to get a lot more patronage from heroes, and why villains tend to actually pay attention to their contacts instead of focusing on the newspaper. Inconvenience does not equal content, or challenge - it is just inconvenience.
There is no reason why, when you are willing to put yourself in harm's way at a contact's behest, they shouldn't answer their [expletive deleted] phone for you.
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I don't disagree that the "go here, go there, go everywhere and no, you can't have my cell number until you've done 90% of what I offer you" contacts contribute to players doing scanner missions that are always in the same zone and require little travel time. It will be interesting to see how this affects the regular Hollows contacts, since this will only be the second "story zone" after Faultline to offer repeatable missions. I may be concerned over nothing.
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Unless the repeatable missions are for the higher end of The Hollows (low to mid teens) and send you to the far corner of the map (away from the Atlas gate), I have to agree with Doc Scorpion. The Hollows' regular contacts of Wincott, Julius the Troll et al will be ditched in favor of running endless repeatable missions for the quick and easy payoff.
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But players can already do that with Radio mission in King's Row, Steel and Skyway. That is, if they realize they don't have to stay in the Hollows until level 15...
Some players will go for the easy route, as they do now, but others will still want to hang out with Frostfire, Atta and the rest.
If the Hollows spawn groups become reasonable, I might just head in there to check things out. Normally I avoid the Hollows with my lower level characters.
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Right, I'm just thinking most players will go for the easy route, not just some. Not a concern if you mostly solo, of course, but it's more problematic if you PuG.
XaoGarrent:
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Actually, you level faster doing good contact missions. Especially ones with AVs or huge [censored] maps. If I start a PuG I usually try to snag a contact or two before starting it, and just run the contact until it's dry. I find people stick with the team longer that way anyway.
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Even if that's accurate, it doesn't seem to be the perception on the teams I get invites to.
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To the first part, yeah, that is why I tend to form my own teams in the hollows, PuGs tend to be a mess, but it helps alot if you have someone that knows what they are doing and has good leadership. Many people will take the easy route and just go kings row, but I like the hollows, I always hit the hollows and I don't think that will ever change. It's good XP and barring the unfortunate n00b team, it isn't hard to direct a team if you know the lay of the land.
As to the second part, no disagreement there, way too many PuGs I end up on tend to abuse the radio missions, which is why in a little bit I'm hopping on my lvl 40 scrapper and forming a team to run the portal corp arc in PI.
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They need to add a GM to the zone. Maybe a giant troll named Grendel that spawns down in the gulch.
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My vote is that the trolls are being run out of their caverns by giant radioactive (can you say toxic damage) ANTS! The Ant Queen GM spawns ants mobs by the gazillions.
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
Indig , leader of the City of Gaymers
[/ QUOTE ]Umm, Grendel's Gulch was named for the Troll taht Atta beat (presumeably killed) in Grendel's Gulch, the former leader of the Troll's. You can read it on the exploration badge 'Seaker of Monsters'.
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I know... I just LOVE giant ants. "Them" use to scare me as a kid. I thought it was so cool...
Indig 
, leader of the City of Gaymers
City of Gaymers on Guildportal.com
http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.asp...3&TabID=295104
After some thought, I'm a little disturbed by one thing about this, one way in which the Hollows re-vamp is taking the hero game in the wrong direction, and it's the contact with the repeatable missions.
For the whole two-plus years from issue 2, back in September of '04, until issue 8, in November of '06, heroes got into the habit of literally never leaving the Hollows from level 5 all the way to level 15 or 20. Sure, they ran out of content and were reduced to farming the same missions over and over again. And in fact, because of much hatred for Julius the Troll's story arc, mostly what they did was re-run Flux the Outcast's arc over and over and over and over again, basically doing nothing but farming Frostfire's lair, from around level 7 all the way to level 15 or more. If you were playing heroes, and wanted to do anything else and not solo it, good luck to you; all the teams were in The Hollows, farming Frostfire.
(It's one of the most cool custom maps in the whole game. And I am so sick of it, even a year and a half later, that it's not even funny.)
And the main reason that everybody did that is that there is very nearly 100% universal consensus among the players, hero side, that the non-Hollows contacts from level 5 to 15 really, really suck, and half of the 15-20 ones are no great shakes. So the great thing about adding newspaper missions was that it gave people a really viable alternative to grinding Frostfire; they could grind newspaper missions.
So if what we're doing here is making it less necessary that you go to King's Row to get your temp travel power mission by making it less painful to travel around the Hollows? And adding repeatable missions so that if you solo your way through Officer Wincott's arc at level 5 and finish Flux at level 9? Now you won't have to leave the Hollows to get more missions of your own to get to level 10 and unlock Julius the Friendly Troll? Then doesn't it look like what they're really trying to get all new players to do is to completely ignore all of the content from before issue 2? To lock all of the players into two and only two zones per 5-level range? 5-10 Hollows. 10-15 Hollows and Midnight Club. 15-20 Midnight Club and Faultline. 20-25 Faultline and Striga. 25-30 Striga and Croatoa. 30-35 Croatoa and ... what? 35-50 RWZ and Cimerora. All those other 75% of the contacts and their story lines, it feels to me like they're trying to steer everybody away from.
And I get that, in one regard, because especially prior to level 25, those arcs really aren't all that well designed. Much of the writing is lame, and the mission door placements and many of the maps all kind of suck, giving the game the nickname City of Commuters, and leaving people completely in the dark about most of the actual plot until they're in their 20s. So is the Hollows revamp really just happening because it's cheaper to revise one zone and add some grind-able content to it than to do what they really need to do (and yes, I know I sound like a broken record here), which is rewrite all original and issue 1 level 5 to 15 story arcs?
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...giving the game the nickname City of Commuters...
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I've never heard that before, but it's a funny and accurate way of making a point. I agree with you: the level 5-10 and 10-15 contacts (and perhaps the ones later as well) have an annoying habit of sending players on missions that are in OTHER zones.
Back when CoH was new, this "behavior" isn't unusual. I've played plenty of MMORPGs where I had to travel from one end of the "world" to the other end just to deliver a package. But then again, those other MMORPGs don't limit the number of "quests / missions" I can take on ... so I could load up on quests and get to complete them as I travel.
I actually enjoyed these "tour Paragon City" missions, so I didn't mind doing the contact's missions. After a few times, however, they do get "boring". So the radio missions help me avoid the regular contacts.
I think that's part of the reasoning behind the Hollow's new Detective. Tired of Frostfire, but still want to explore the Hollows? Go do the Detective's missions.
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...do what they really need to do (and yes, I know I sound like a broken record here), which is rewrite all original and issue 1 level 5 to 15 story arcs?
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I really doubt they would re-write any of the old story arcs. The best they would do is change where the mission door is placed ... hopefully, not as randomly as before.
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Unless the repeatable missions are for the higher end of The Hollows (low to mid teens) and send you to the far corner of the map (away from the Atlas gate), I have to agree with Doc Scorpion. The Hollows' regular contacts of Wincott, Julius the Troll et al will be ditched in favor of running endless repeatable missions for the quick and easy payoff.
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But players can already do that with Radio mission in King's Row, Steel and Skyway. That is, if they realize they don't have to stay in the Hollows until level 15...
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That's my _point_ Mirai. For those players that wish to grind radios, there already exists a path to do so, and many people do. Adding a contact with repeatable missions to the Hollows just turns the Hollows from something unique into a clone of the advancement track that already exists.
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Some players will go for the easy route, as they do now, but others will still want to hang out with Frostfire, Atta and the rest.
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My experience is that it's not "some" players that will go the easy route - it's the vast majority of players, especially PuG leaders. You want the easy route, head to KR, Sky, Steel... The Hollows does need some toning down, but not dumbing down.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
What I want is a "Defeat Frostfire" badge for grinding through a minimum number of Frostfire missions.
It's too early for me to say much about the hollows revision until we learn more about what it'll entail.
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What I want is a "Defeat Frostfire" badge for grinding through a minimum number of Frostfire missions.
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Call it Ice Capades.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Naw, that's the badge for spending x amount of hours playing on the ice slides. For Frostfire, I'd call it Hot Flashes. Hehe
Personally I hope they redo Frostfires look. Both Frostfire and Atta really don't look like the leaders of the Trolls and Outcasts. They should get new unique looking models. It would make it feel more epic to fight them if they looked differently than the standard members.
I'm not sure it's a detective. I suspect it will be like Borea in the RWZ, just missions to do.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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