Issue 12 Discussion: Hollows Zone Makeover
By
Aakan,
Posted on: 2008-03-12 09:27 in Developers' Corner
I'd be interested to know how you guys justify investing all the time required in revamping a Hero zone (which they have PLENTY of) vs making a NEW zone for Villains, new trials for villains, and new SFs for villains.
Sure, villains get a (much delayed) EAT with some story arcs, but, come on, at least revamp Lagville, give us something closer to a true hazard zone, and more team content before you screw around with the Hollows. Last time I checked there were PLENTY of players in that zone. It's not like it doesn't get used in its current incarnation.
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I'd be interested to know how you guys justify investing all the time required in revamping a Hero zone (which they have PLENTY of) vs making a NEW zone for Villains, new trials for villains, and new SFs for villains.
Sure, villains get a (much delayed) EAT with some story arcs, but, come on, at least revamp Lagville, give us something closer to a true hazard zone, and more team content before you screw around with the Hollows. Last time I checked there were PLENTY of players in that zone. It's not like it doesn't get used in its current incarnation.
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Ironically, I was going to post the same exact thing! Surpisingly when someone makes sense in this thread its left alone.
If they are revamping this zone, then it needs to be like Ritki War Zone, CO-OP. If its not then it was wasted intentions. The villians are lacking Strike Forces. Especially if they do combine markets, most villian Infamy will come over to the blue side. I can't see how one market should be able to dictate over the other.
The revamp maybe nice, but really was it necassary?
Soph
This is a great improvement for The Hollows, and it was finally time that something was done about it.
The zone is nice, but due to the hardships in maneuvering it pre-travel power, makes this zones a major pain in the back!
I also like the feature of repeatable missions.
Thanks a lot for Issue 12!
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I'd be interested to know how you guys justify investing all the time required in revamping a Hero zone (which they have PLENTY of) vs making a NEW zone for Villains, new trials for villains, and new SFs for villains.
Sure, villains get a (much delayed) EAT with some story arcs, but, come on, at least revamp Lagville, give us something closer to a true hazard zone, and more team content before you screw around with the Hollows. Last time I checked there were PLENTY of players in that zone. It's not like it doesn't get used in its current incarnation.
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You guys live on a series of islands. Unless one suddenly springs up out of the ocean you are SOL.
As for a "true" hazard zone, CoV's zones were designed to include areas with hazard zone sized mobs along with standard solo player sized mobs. Part of the whole social Darwinism (and zone streamlining) of CoV. In CoH they go out of their way to protect low level heroes from getting too far over their head and get boo-boos.
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So...
They ignore CoV, they ignore CoH's dead zones (Dark Astoria, Boomtown, etc.), and they "fix" one of the most used and working zones (as opposed to, say, Perez), thus making two of the Issue's major features devoted to the short-and-bloated 10-14 level range.
Repeatable missions? Yeah, we have radios for that. I already outlevel the Hollows on accident on most characters (I actually want to do the current arcs), I really doubt I need another source of repeatable missions at that level range.
It's the "i12 is not a big issue" promise that's keeping me from being particularly mad right now, but I still can't imagine what they might be thinking.
Edit:
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You guys live on a series of islands. Unless one suddenly springs up out of the ocean you are SOL.
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Or if they find a dome under the ocean. 
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You guys live on a series of islands. Unless one suddenly springs up out of the ocean you are SOL.
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Incorrect about the need for a new island. There are plenty of unused places on the map of the Etoile Islands where a new zone could be placed. In fact, villains have received one such zone already, in the Abyss. It's a pity it was ill-conceived, poorly thought out, and ultimately wasted effort, but it proves that additional zones can be done.
And, even if a new island were necessary, this is a world of superpowers, ultra technology, and magic. There is nothing to say that additional islands couldn't be simply created by one of the various insanely powerful groups inhabiting the CoX universe.
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I'd be interested to know how you guys justify investing all the time required in revamping a Hero zone (which they have PLENTY of) vs making a NEW zone for Villains, new trials for villains, and new SFs for villains.
Sure, villains get a (much delayed) EAT with some story arcs, but, come on, at least revamp Lagville, give us something closer to a true hazard zone, and more team content before you screw around with the Hollows. Last time I checked there were PLENTY of players in that zone. It's not like it doesn't get used in its current incarnation.
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You guys live on a series of islands. Unless one suddenly springs up out of the ocean you are SOL.
As for a "true" hazard zone, CoV's zones were designed to include areas with hazard zone sized mobs along with standard solo player sized mobs. Part of the whole social Darwinism (and zone streamlining) of CoV. In CoH they go out of their way to protect low level heroes from getting too far over their head and get boo-boos.
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Don't really agree with the Op's negativity but there are actually a bunch of unused islands in the rouge isles, I'm sure those can be used for something.
And the reason why villains are "left out in the cold" is to balance the issue.
Heroes Get:
1) Revamped Hollows (not sure how much they did for it)
2) lvl 10-20 content (once again not sure how much) and
3) lvl 35-50 content
and in return the villains get
1) 35-50 content (which is something many of complained there being a lack of) and
2) the Villain EAT's (which I'm assuming will have quite a few story arcs spanning over 1-50 as well as each EAT branching out into 2 different forms)
Now i am 85% sure that the Villan EAT's are the reason why villains are "lacking" in the content this issue (and if you are gonna say that Wolf Spiders and Blood Widows shouldn't take that much time name 20+ powers that each have) and I expect more for villains hopefully in i13 or i14.
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4. Perez Park needs something too. I hate those woods. My solution is since it is a zone between everyother zone if you look at your map, is make it a big multilevel parking garage with a subbasement that has a sewer for the hyrdra to hang out in.
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The perfect place for your Big Yellow Taxi, eh?
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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Last time I checked there were PLENTY of players in that zone. It's not like it doesn't get used in its current incarnation.
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And there's the reason why it's getting revamped.
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Now i am 85% sure that the Villan EAT's are the reason why villains are "lacking" in the content this issue (and if you are gonna say that Wolf Spiders and Blood Widows shouldn't take that much time name 20+ powers that each have) and I expect more for villains hopefully in i13 or i14.
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Well, you have to remember that the VEATs weren't even supposed to be in this issue. They were planned for i13, and only made it in because of an unexpected budget windfall.
Which would have left even less for villains in i12.
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I'm shocked by how many people are giddy over this. It seems like the developers are taking all of the challenge out of this game. I liked the fact there was no hospital in the Hollows. It helps develop the players appreciation for the zones that have them.
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LOL! Funny response! I think there's plenty of other places that help the players develop that appreciation (Perez Park, for one).
In this case, we're really talking about a Quality of Life improvement for new players. Perhaps I need to remind you of what it is like to a new player with a level 5 - 6 character:
This new player has been following his contact's missions religiously; after all, it's the easiest way to find a bunch of enemies spawned close together for his level. So between level 4 and 5, his first contact finally introduces him to a second contact. And if he's unlucky, the second contact might be in the other starter zone ... let's say he started in Atlas Park, and now he has to go to Galaxy to talk to his second contact.
So he travels -- sprint speed, you understand, is nowhere close to what the travel powers provide. He gets to his second contact in Galaxy, and he's essentially told to go back to Atlas Park and pay a visit to the Hollows.
So now he travels back. At this point, frustration is mounting. The player wants to get to a real mission, not get this run-around. When he finally makes it to the Hollows, he talks to Wincott and takes the mission.
First surprise: it's a Defeat 10 street-sweep. Huzzah. Second surprise: the enemies congregate in large numbers. Back in the days when the Hollows was first introduced, there were a lot of people in Hollows ... so finding a group was as easy as showing up in the zone's Find list. Nowadays ... I rarely see more than 3 people in the zone.
So our poor new player with his level 5or6 character is forced to solo through that first mission. Let's say he doesn't use the "buy inspirations" trick ... he'll eventually get defeated simply by the overwhelming numbers. And now he has to go to the hospital.
Guess what happens:
-- Long Loading Screen to the Hospital
-- Go thru two "doors" to get out of Hospital
-- Long travel -- still sprinting -- to get to Hollows
-- Long Loading Screen to enter Hollows
Things like this is what frustrate many new players to any MMORPG. So I'm glad they've simplified that 4-step-process above to this:
-- Reappear at Field Hospital in Hollows.
To be honest, I'd rather have the Devs change that "first mission from second contact" to direct the player to visit the Detective in Kings Row. It's not good to make new players think that the Hollows is the natural progression.
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I'm putting my money on seeing the Warriors in the Hollows. They are supposed to be connected to the Outcasts, right?
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The Warriors are already in the Hollows ... just not in large numbers. Iss 12 may change that.
With the new XP curve I can see why the Hollows needs to be revamped slightly. To be honest, most of my characters who tried the hollows ended up outleveling the zone by the time they hit Frostfire. By comparison the Faultline and Croatoa story arc are much better paced.
Take the mission against Atta for example, even on small low-level teams you can easily spend half of a day on that mission alone.
The Hollows as it is, was made for people who wanted content before they came up with the idea of Police Scanners and Safeguards.
As for villain side... My villains will now have zone where they can street hunt 40+ Arcane enemies consistantly. Trouble with Grandville and the RWZ is it's populated by Tech-based enemies. Sure you have Arachnos and Longbow, but on the average they drop more Tech than Arcane. You're only other option was grinding papers for Thorns and Carnies, which usually take place in narrow caves.
I'd wish they'd redo the Shard for both sides, but other than grind the Rularuu for loot and fruits there's not a lot of IC reason for them to go there. Although one could argue for a villain that's good enough reason for them to go there.
"Steady as a mountain, attack like fire, still as a wood, swift as the wind.
In heaven and earth I alone am to be revered."
- Motto on the war banner of Takeda Shingen (1521-1573)
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4. Perez Park needs something too. I hate those woods. My solution is since it is a zone between everyother zone if you look at your map, is make it a big multilevel parking garage with a subbasement that has a sewer for the hyrdra to hang out in.
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The perfect place for your Big Yellow Taxi, eh?
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*walks up behind GadgetDon and garrots him with a rubber chicken*
sssh, sssh, it almost over. dont struggle, almost over.
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Now i am 85% sure that the Villan EAT's are the reason why villains are "lacking" in the content this issue (and if you are gonna say that Wolf Spiders and Blood Widows shouldn't take that much time name 20+ powers that each have) and I expect more for villains hopefully in i13 or i14.
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Well, you have to remember that the VEATs weren't even supposed to be in this issue. They were planned for i13, and only made it in because of an unexpected budget windfall.
Which would have left even less for villains in i12.
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Lol actually Hero1 just said that the 10-20 has 1 arc for heroes and two smaller ones for villains so i gotta add that to the villains too 
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so heroes get:
1. Revamped hollows
2. midnighters club
3. 35-50 content
villains get
1. midnighters club
2. 35-50 content
3. villain eats
And even if i12 was slightly unbalanced one would expect that due to the VEATS i13 would have been slightly more villain centric to balance for it. But i didn't it made it into i12 which IMO tips it in cov favor..... which isnt a bad thing mind you 
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A lot of people talk about how The Hollows is great at teaching aggro ranges but that always struck me as very odd. If it's taking someone five levels of play and hazard-sized spawns before they learn that getting close to an enemy means it will attack you, well, I dunno what to say. It's a dead-simple concept to pick up and it's utterly binary. I picked up on it in the Outbreak tutorial where the enemies are often placed close enough to cause accidental aggro if you're not paying attention.
But maybe I was just especially observant or something.
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I personaly picked up how the game worked about as fast as you did, in fact I skipped the tutorial, although I did have a high level friend to help me out. Plus I started on a blaster, and did well in doing so (I come from a long line of knee jerk games, so that could have had something to do with it). And as others have stated not everyone is as bright as their hero's costume, so the hollows is good for weeding out the total newbies.
But mainly what I found the hollows good for was quick leveling and learning the optimum play style for my new toons. The hollows taught me the best way to maximize the high AoE of spine burst on my spines/dark armor without spending too much time in the middle of a mob, to stack my parry well on my katana/SR and how to maximize the cone, the best uses for ice slick (around corners in frost fires hideout does WONDERS for hollows PuGs) and how to keep everyone well healed when things go south on my ice/emp, how to avoid over agroing on my fire/em blaster using quick movement and momentum, and much more on my other toons. The hollows is more of a testing ground for new toons, learning how to use them well, so the fact they upgraded this makes some sense.
Although, I would still like to see perez upgraded and villains get more low to middle level content like the hollows and faultline. Most of my toons hit the sewers until lvl 6, head to kings row till about 10 and then hit the hollows till about 16 or 18 if I can find a team that can handle the CoT missions. After that I usually fool around in steel or skyway for a while and head to faultline until about 25 or 26, then talos and croa. There is no ideal pattern like that villain side, and it's a real shame because Villains are cool and the ATs are fun.
Maybe next issue? I also wouldn't be against impromptu content bumps at all, if the devs just randomly wanted to pop in some new stuff between issues I doubt anyone would complain if it was done well.
Not having a hospital in The Hollows is the reason why nearly all of my heros got Hover as their first power pool power. Then trip it out with as much flight speed enhancements as possible.
But as I said to my friends last night, "A MSH in The Hollows? Okay, who wants to take bets on how many M*A*S*H in-jokes will show up there."
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70 toons across 11 servers.
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I doubt the changes to the Hollows, beyond the new Contact giving out generic "radio" style missions, will be anything that effects the actual content. Reading thw rite up seems the biggest change will be no longer having to run through level 10-12 mobs to get to a lvl 6 mission door.. though it will make WS's less popular now without the need for the early TP..
I think the hollows got a revamp because it was a series of relatively small tweeks.. Boomtown will probably get the full Faultline treatment when it's time comes..
War Witch, Level Designer who's doing the Hollows Gameplay Makeover, wanted me to point out that the changes are to address spawns and that there are no significant art changes (like moving buildings, etc.) being done with the changes.
We'll have more information and details about all the features of Issue 12: Midnight Hour in forthcoming web articles.
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War Witch, Level Designer who's doing the Hollows Gameplay Makeover, wanted me to point out that the changes are to address spawns and that there are no significant art changes (like moving buildings, etc.) being done with the changes.
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Oh, well if War Witch says it's okay, I'm sure it will be fine. 
That does make me feel better... I was expecting some sort of Faultline-style changes. If it's just spawn-moving (PLEASE OH PLEASE BE LOW-LEVEL IGNEOUS) and a "Hollows Radio," I guess that's not detracting from real and significant changes. QoL changes are good; dozens of hours spent on retreading working content is bad.
(I'm still very irritated about the 10-20 content addition, of course.)
Edit: And I guess "first." "First" comments are forbidden on most forums I go to, but I guess they're compulsory here.
So Hollows isn't being made more player-friendly to move through? That's too bad. Hopefully the moble hospital will help things out. I can't remember how many times I've died almost getting to the mission door and have to go through all that trouble again.
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So Hollows isn't being made more player-friendly to move through?
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I'm guessing they're moving mission doors around to be more level appropriate, so in that sense I'm guessing it will be easier to move through, just not in a geometry changing way.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
moving some of the larger spawns away form the exits and replacing them with less new guy frightening ones.
I've actively avoided the hollows since my very 1st play thru!
I've completely avoided it once I stopped low level teaming!
It was just too much for a level 7 blaster, this was back before the days of raptor packs and the like. While I'm sure the temp powers make it even easier, I just had bad memories of the place and kinda forgot it existed.
And now we hear War Witch is doing the makeover! Her zones additions have been some of the best content this game has seen. I can't wait to 're-experience' the Hollows now!
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My experiences come from patrolling the Hollows with my tank since his 30s, watching players play and jumping in to heal (or rez if I'm too late) as well as escorting them out of the pit if they fall in. Got the first healing badge this way.
New players simply don't learn the limits of their characters, knowing when to run away when the odds get overwhelming. Learning to take the 15 odd seconds to rest to full before jumping into the next large mob. Keep fighting when with 0 endurance.
As for aggro, well aggroing +2 or +3 mobs in Atlas may result in a good chunk of your health disappearing but doing that in the Hollows will result in a not so quick trip to the Hospital. Adding a MASH unit in the Hollows will simply remove the negative reenforcement of learning what not to do.
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