In-Testing: Task / Strike Force and Trial Missions

My first look at such a thread, and it's kind of appalling. Whilst most people are generally in favor of this decision to at least get a compromise solution to the problem, a relatively small minority go on and on about the problems instead of praising the attempt at a solution.

I'm with the 'thank you devs' for not only listening to the playerbase, but also opening yourself up to public scrutiny and criticism. You can't please all the people all the time, and this has to be one of many game issues that needs attending to. Let it play out on Test and continue to get feedback.

To the critics: Get on there and do the same. Don't throw hypotheticals at the people who are making the game for you, get in there and HELP them. This is pretty much the purpose of the thread. Otherwise, all you're doing is literally what you've accused the devs of, which is throwing things up there and hoping they stick.

And for the record, I'm in favor of the change. It's a good first step, as far as first steps go.

S.

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Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

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Do we know that the Ouroboros Task Forces and Flashback weren't affected by the old change, and thus aren't affected by the new change?

Those are Task Forces in every other mechanism, except they have a minimum size to start of 1. So if the current system affects them, we'd never know it, because team spawns would never drop below the minimum size to start. But the change on Testing could affect Flashback story arcs. And given how long some heroside TFs are, that could be an issue.

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That's why I asked, GD. Thank you for clarifying it better than I could.

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"Superman died fighting Doomsday because he allowed his toggles to drop, and didn't beat Doomsday before Unstoppable wore off, sad really..."

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The people who have supported the Live system are not being listened to, what do you have to say about the Devs with regard to that?

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Actually I already covered that. I said that listening to your customers doesn't mean listening to me and ignoring everyone else. Please note that I don't specifically mean you when I say this.

As with a great many things you can only have it one way or the other. While I personally don't think that this is the best change for what I believe to be the devs goal at least it shows that they are listening to us. Now they aren't making the decision that I would make, but I have long ago learned not to expect everyone to be a super-genius like myself. (joking, well ok mostly joking)

Personally I'd make the anti-farming fix by simply not allowing people to reset their missions. You didn't save Mrs. Smith? Ok, the monsters ate her, or another hero rescued her, or whatever. You didn't complete the mission you don't get the XP, sorry about your luck, move on to the next mission. There's always a next mission.

Although that's not what I'd actually do. What I'd actually do is just get over the fixation the devs seem to have with farmers. I personally hate farming because it's boring. I play the game to NOT be bored. But if other players want to farm then so frikken what? The only difference between farming and playing the game is the lack of travel time between missions. Big deal! Quit trying to force people to play the game your way Stat... er I mean Positron. Work on something useful like... oh I don't know... say... fixing anyone of the 1,738 "known bugs" that are over a year old. How about that??? Ok, lets make it simple, lets start with just the bugs that are over 2 years old. That should cut it down to just less that a thousand.

*sigh*

Anyway, frankly I'm just happy that the dev team is working on Task Forces at all. They could be spending their time doing stuff like nerfing Devices, or Buffing Willpower, or ignoring Bases. Uhm.. ok, scratch that last one. They pretty much ignore Bases 24/7. So yeah, maybe you've noticed that I'm not a real big fan of the Devs. That being said I'm still happy that they're at least listening to some of us. What we've got now is much better than before with Statesman and his "my way or the highway" motto.

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Let's compare the original TF system to this new proposed Test system. The Test system says this:
TF spawns will no longer reduce in size if players log out.

Taken in THOSE TERMS, I would hope the issue is clear. This system is terribly unforgiving of a normal non-exploitive disconnect. THAT by itself is a Bad Idea - the "experiment" they put on Live last week that they're rolling back is irrelevant to that evaluation.


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You're absolutely correct in this, but I think you've gotta compare it to the current Live version. If this new version doesn't work out, or creates more complaints than the Live version, I highly doubt they'll revert it back to the way it used to be. It's either gonna be this new version or leave it the way it is on Live now, or maybe they'll try something else.

Comparing the new version to the way it used to be is pointless. Is this new version better than the way it used to be? Absolutely not -- the way it used to be penalized no one, casual players or exploiters (unless you count the farmers getting a lot more Pool C recipes than the casual players). Both the Live version and the Test version can penalize both casual players and exploiters/farmers. In some situations, the Test version is better, and in other situations, the Live version is better. The question that's important is which version (the current Live one or the Test one) impacts the non-exploiters/casual players the least.

It doesn't matter how it used to be, unless you think there's a chance that the Devs can be convinced to go back to it, at least until they can work out a solution that's better than they've got so far.

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The test version is better when people explicitly quit the TF and that drops you below the minimum, it is the same as live when people quit the TF but the team size remains at or above the minimum to start. The live version is better when people log off without quitting and the team logged in remains at or above minimum to start, it is the same as test if the team logged in falls below the minimum to start.

Or in other words, if the team remaining logged in after someone leaves is at or above the minimum to start, the live version is better, it's unchanged from before the devs made any changes to the way spawns happen in TFs. It's only when the team logged in size falls below the team minimum, and then it's only better when people quit instead of logging off.

If it's true that more people quit than log off (which has been my experience at least), then more often than not this change does nothing or makes it worse. And if the minimum to start numbers weren't so excessive, then the version on live would almost always be the same or better than what's on test.

SuperOz, I'm glad the devs took another look at it, but IMHO they found the wrong solution. And your comment about "test and give feedback"...testing can determine if the change works as described (which is worth doing but I'm reasonably confident that it does) and whether it applies to Flashback/Ouroboros (which definitely is needed to find out). But all the artificial tests on the test server, where you have someone quit and check spawns then have someone log off and check spawns, won't answer the big question, of whether people who leave a TF and don't come back quit or just log off/disconnect and don't/can't come back.

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My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout

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I already stated before that this is a better way of preventing the Cap au Diable SF multi-recipe farming that was the Villain equivalent of the KH TF speed runs in terms of number of recipes generated per unit time than the system currently on live, as a decent build can solo missions spawned for 4 even at level 20. It's a little harder to get a level 20 soloing spawns for 8 - that's usually much later in your career.

I also admitted that I'm one of the people who does run Caps for the Pool C drops - mostly as a race to see who can do it faster on my part as opposed to it being done to supply myself with a huge stockpile of Pool C recipes without paying out a lot of infamy, since they're "nice-but-not-essential" for most of my characters (honestly, it's the Pool A recipes - particularly Crushing Impacts - that I have trouble getting my hands on because I don't farm the traditional run-the-same-mission-until-your-brain-hemmorages sort of way).

Of course, it does nothing to the KH farming that happens all the time (at least per the badge channels I have selected as globals), so basically it's targetted at reducing supply of villain Pool C recipes while doing little to nothing about the supply of hero Pool C recipes, and as a side effect introducing ways that temporary outages on TFs that have more than the minimum are being hurt more than the way currently on live (which hurts the casual TF'er more than the way that allows the 8x8 farming).

I agree with several of the responses that question the reasoning behind it, but I'll restate my opinion that it definately will prevent me from doing any 8x8 Cap runs once it hits the live servers.

On a totally unrelated note (yeah right), I have a suggestion to address content and SF/TF disparity between the sides and stimulate the villain Pool C market. When is Croatoa being opened for villains?

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Not sure if this has been mentioned and I've read the entire thread. Will this effect the use of Oro Arcs? Lets say I decide to start up Unai's Arc with 4 using all of my accounts (me and the wife both have 2) and then log out the characters that I'm using to buff the spawn sizes.

Will the rest of the mission spawn for 4 since they didn't quit and only logged off? This could be a farmers dream come true.

Will it adjust down to 1?

Since the arcs use the TF code, I can see a lot of abuse via farmers if question 1 is the case.

The current change on test is not needed, the live version should remain and the minimum to start TF's should be adjusted for those that require more than 4, unless they are the STF/LRSF, down to 4.

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This is a much better system than the force to minimum team size.

Thanks for listening.

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And for acting so quickly, too. Much appreciated.

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~Missi

http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s

Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!

All of you thanking the devs for listening and "acting so quickly", do remember that this change wasn't needed in the first place.

Do remember that there are larger issues in the game that are not being addressed (as far as we've been let know by the devs).

Do remember that TFs have not changed in years and that up until now, the only complaint about them was that some were too much work for too little reward (which this has not addressed).

Do remember that when this change was first implemented, it was not included in the patch notes AND we were lied to about it's purpose for being put in.

From Lighthouse:
http://boards.cityofvillains.com/showfla...ue#Post10216237
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One of the many aims of this most recent update was to address exploitive behavior that could be used for influence/infamy farming. This is especially relevant when considering recent problems with unwanted real money trade (RMT) solicitations in game.

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Then later on Posi comes in with the REAL explanation...
http://boards.cityofvillains.com/showfla...part=1&vc=1

At least Posi has the balls not to come up with some retarded excuse and just be honest (for the most part).


It's like the devs beat the [censored] out of you all, then stopped, and you thanked them for stopping. That doesn't make sense. You should still be angry that they beat you in the first place.

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Seems like you forgot this is only a game my friend. The change is not game-breaking, so take a deep breathe and re-evaluate why you are so upset.

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I agree this is a better solution than was attempted before and thank you for coming up with it quickly.

However:
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It does put the control back in the players hands in all cases but a hard, irreconcilable loss of internet connectivity.

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Some people will simply log out and attempt to come back for the last mission. They can be booted when they show back up, if that is the case, but they've still made life a bit more difficult for everyone involved before then. It could also be filed under:
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advise you to better get to know the people you are grouping with.

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Which leads to my second point.
That philosophy doesn't really appeal to me. There is *nothing* of increased difficulty over regular gameplay in TF's, with a couple end game exceptions. The only thing that makes them difficult is/was finding people to stick it out for hours and hours of repetitive missions. This may increase the difficulty of doing the TFs for someone who doesn't make CoH a big part of their life but still enjoys playing it. CoH was a great game for being able to do that. I think the snippets of late about 'the majority players being level 35 or under' may be weak, indirect evidence of that. TF's used to be a good way for these people to meet other players when pubs attempted them, but people logging may snowball more than it did, increasing the "difficulty", which has nothing to do with the missions or gameplay being hard.

Again, thank you for coming up with this solution, it is likely to be much, much better for many players. But please do not take solving this problem completely off the burner.

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Lets address your last point 1st. There is no way to get a pool c recipe other than to complete a tf. They are not generated in any other way. Thus, that content is no longer available to casual players.


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It is still available to all players, it's just more troublesome for PuGs. PuGs, are not the same thing as casual players. This content is intended for "casual groups of friends" (Posi's words) who know each other and can rely on each other.

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exploit. Tf''s have been around for how long? and they just decided that this was a horrible exploit that desperately needed fixing? This is a case of the cure being worse than the disease.


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I don't have the Dev's numbers, but with this being pushed through as an exploit fix, it sounds like someone gave the order to FIX IT NOW. Perhaps some recent activity uncovered the need? Or perhaps something is happening to TFs in an upcoming update?

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It is already hard enough to get the required 7 playeers to do manti. Onc you have people forming tf's and kicking the "excess" non sg members from the team to make the spawn sizes smaller, it will become near impossible. I predict your will see this form of asshattery within 2 weeks of this going live.


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I am sure that @ssh@ttery will happen. That is the fault of the @ssh@ts, not the Devs.

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The more stupid, reactionary, poorly thought out changes you see like this, the more players this game will lose. I see less of th long term players that I used to see on all the time. BS like this won make it any better. This fix is most likely a way to blow off he promise to actually fix the old tf's.

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I have yet to see an alternate suggestion by any player that is any better. Every suggestion that makes it more difficult to softload is going to be trouble for PuGs by definition; the game can't tell if you are logging off to save a baby or to start another TF with your other account. I do hope tech can be developed to kick offline players from TFs, but players will abuse/exploit that, too.

I am more confident now than ever that the TFs will be redone. The first step in that direction was Ouroboros, IMHO. They can make all the TFs Flashbackable, and the people who will inevitably complain that they preferred the OLD Positron TF can be directed to Ouroboros.

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Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

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Seems like you forgot this is only a game my friend. The change is not game-breaking, so take a deep breathe and re-evaluate why you are so upset.

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Haha, don't get me wrong, I have no strong ties to CoX right now. This game has the potential for being really great. It really does.

But I dunno, I imagine the same thing goes on in their office as does mine. A good idea is presented, then management has to approve it about a dozen times with a bunch of meetings with many managers, then it goes back to the devs but by that time it's been twisted so far from the original idea that it's not even worth doing anymore.

Maybe I'm just tired of people not having the balls to do what's needed and get things done anymore. Instead they make changes like these to validate their paychecks and forget about who actually pays for their product.


And the response from the forum goers with all the "OH THANK YOU!" "YOU'RE SO GREAT!" "YAY!" doesn't help matters any because then they're like "see what we did there? we screwed them over, then unscrewed them about halfway, and now we're gods to them once again, suckers". It's negative reinforcement.

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This change and the previous one is bad because it still allows for some teammates to grief your team should they choose to log off and not quit. I have had it to happen twice since the first change on a few tfs I have done. Once on Katie hannon and once Sara Moore TFs. We need a way to be able to kick people from the team that are not currently logged in. Secondly neither of these changes have done anything to address the reason why this softloading of tf/sfs happens in the first place. If the recipes that people can actually use were more readily accessable we would not be going thru this now in the first place. Either address the issue with the drop pools or you are doing all this for nothing and all it is doing is punishing the rest of the playerbase instead of farmers.

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Understandable and thanks for the feedback. However, I would have to advise you to better get to know the people you are grouping with. Simply put, if someone has a reputation for such, don't engage in a task / strike force or trial with them. You would be well advised to only take your most trusted allies with you to tackle such challenging and dangerous missions!

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Soooo, if im understanding you right, those ppl that dont have a regular circle of friends are just kinda bunk? PUGs are the way most of these tf/sf get done usually as far as ive seen - how do you et to know who has a rep for it with ppl running alts? Ya kinda jsut patted this guy/gal on the head and said - ya ya just get a life in game..

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*nerf* Darn! Oh well.. I will just have to rebuild. Ah.. this works *nerf*
Darn it.. well I will rebuild again.. oh this might *nerf*
Grr.. this is getting annoying.. rebuild agai- *nerf*
I wasn't even finished rebuilding the las- *nerf* But.. *nerf* I *nerf* ......*nerf* *nerf* *nerf*

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I'm for how it is on Live. I'm not for this setup under test.

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I still don't understand why people are so opposed to this change.

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Honest answer? Fine.

I can't bring 2 toons to the Cap au Diable SF and log one off now, without serious repercussions to missions 1, 2, and 6. I just got used to the new paradigm of having to find 2 other people that were willing to run it thru to the final mission with me with a team of 4.

It's another penalty that's been imposed to villain side. Which is where I spend 90% of my time.

Katie will remain unaffected, since you need 5+ people to effectively battle the 10 AV's. If people bring 2, then they usually bring a Damage toon and say a Radiation Emmision character. Something passive.

This change affects me and my VG negatively. I'm sorry you don't understand that, nor able to grasp the dire feelings I have towards this change. It doesn't mean that I don't have a right to feel as I do, since this feels Shiny and Happy to you.

These whole TF/SF reconfigurations have really been implemented in a sketchy manner. Any changes seem to impact the Villainside SF/Trials the hardest. Cap SF and Villain Respecs.

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Lets address your last point 1st. There is no way to get a pool c recipe other than to complete a tf. They are not generated in any other way. Thus, that content is no longer available to casual players.


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It is still available to all players, it's just more troublesome for PuGs. PuGs, are not the same thing as casual players. This content is intended for "casual groups of friends" (Posi's words) who know each other and can rely on each other.

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I don't see why you think this would be troublesome for PuG's, PuG's doest stand for bunch of noobs. If I advertised to form a TF on the servers badge channel, it is a PuG, it is not planned, but usually a group of experienced players, on occasion you might get someone who hasn't run the TF/SF before. Casual Players <> Casual Group of Friends. You keep bringing up the Dev's original intent. If you read the entire post you will see Posi also say this:

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That said, TF's (and SF's) have grown into their own. They are no longer the casual raid, but are run by pick up groups and nearly every character wants to get them done during their career. Personally I have no problem with the difference between how they were designed and how they are actually being played.

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I've never failed a TF to date, and they were all PuG's, probably 200+ PuG TF's. Now I have failed getting the MoSTF badge quite a few times, but still beat the TF and got the recipe.

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This a good change, the only ones complaining about it are the FARMERS, even tho they clam themselves to be "the avg player". LOL

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I'm not a farmer, and I'm opposed to the change.

The very reason I'm opposed to the change is because of the effect the change has on non-farmer teams. If a team sets out on a strikeforce, and one of them disconnects, then all the remaining team members are punished by having larger spawns than their team size would normally see. This does not affect farming, it is merely going to be a Bad Experience (TM) for people attempting strikeforces.

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This a good change, the only ones complaining about it are the FARMERS, even tho they clam themselves to be "the avg player". LOL

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I don't farm either, but this change seems more promising to farmers who can basically set their spawn sizes to their liking, as opposed to the current live version that takes it down to the required TF start size. If I like to farm 4 person spawns, I start the TF I want, have the needed amount quit to get to 4 and have the other 3 log. You actually get to pick the spawn size that you want.

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I've never failed a TF to date, and they were all PuG's, probably 200+ PuG TF's. Now I have failed getting the MoSTF badge quite a few times, but still beat the TF and got the recipe.

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That made me think about my experience with TFs/SFs and to be honest the only two I have failed are RSF and STF and always at the last mission.

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This probably doesn't need to be asked but might as well be through,

LH, do these TF changes also apply to the Oroborous Taskforces and the Flashback Taskforces themselves? I hope so.

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Yes they do. Flashback missions use the same code as Task / Strike Force Missions.

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Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager

If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.

I was never convinced that this exploit needed to be fixed. Not everyone soft loads TFs. I've never done so. Some people do soft load. But it is a really creative way for people to control the spawn sizes.

Let us be awarded for being creative. Not told that we are not playing the game they way you want us to be playing. There needs to be some wiggle room.

This exploit was not that big of a deal, in my opinion. There was really no reason to start mucking about with it. Yes it's an exploit, but it is a clever exploit that doesn't really hurt the game that much, except help put IO's into the market at a cheaper price.

I can see how that is game breaking. /sarcasm

Edit: Obligatory mention that I'm first after a red name.

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Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind

OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!

[ QUOTE ]
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This probably doesn't need to be asked but might as well be through,

LH, do these TF changes also apply to the Oroborous Taskforces and the Flashback Taskforces themselves? I hope so.

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Yes they do. Flashback missions use the same code as Task / Strike Force Missions.

[/ QUOTE ]

So does that mean if I'm on a task force and everyone but me quits (for whatever reason), so that I'm effectively soloing the task force, will the AV become an EB?

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Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind

OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This probably doesn't need to be asked but might as well be through,

LH, do these TF changes also apply to the Oroborous Taskforces and the Flashback Taskforces themselves? I hope so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes they do. Flashback missions use the same code as Task / Strike Force Missions.

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So does that mean if I'm on a task force and everyone but me quits (for whatever reason), so that I'm effectively soloing the task force, will the AV become an EB?

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Well, if everyone "quits" the TF will disband. If one person is logged off but didn't quit, you will still have to fight an AV I believe. Pretty sure TF AV's are hardcoded to spawn as AV's.

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Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes

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This probably doesn't need to be asked but might as well be through,

LH, do these TF changes also apply to the Oroborous Taskforces and the Flashback Taskforces themselves? I hope so.

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Yes they do. Flashback missions use the same code as Task / Strike Force Missions.

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So let the farming begin, start yourself up an Unai Kemen Arc in Oro, get 5 throw away characters that aren't played and have them logout, insta 6 man spawns for 23 missions!

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[ QUOTE ]
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This probably doesn't need to be asked but might as well be through,

LH, do these TF changes also apply to the Oroborous Taskforces and the Flashback Taskforces themselves? I hope so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes they do. Flashback missions use the same code as Task / Strike Force Missions.

[/ QUOTE ]

That fact makes the change on test a definite step back from what's on live now. You can't even justify it with "well, but do you want people to get this great rewards with less work" for Flashback.

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My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This probably doesn't need to be asked but might as well be through,

LH, do these TF changes also apply to the Oroborous Taskforces and the Flashback Taskforces themselves? I hope so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes they do. Flashback missions use the same code as Task / Strike Force Missions.

[/ QUOTE ]

So does that mean if I'm on a task force and everyone but me quits (for whatever reason), so that I'm effectively soloing the task force, will the AV become an EB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if everyone "quits" the TF will disband. If one person is logged off but didn't quit, you will still have to fight an AV I believe. Pretty sure TF AV's are hardcoded to spawn as AV's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, everyone quits besides you so the TF doesn't disband. If the Ouroborus missions use the same task force rules, and I can run the Maria Jenkins arc in Ouroborus by myself on heroic and have the AV's be EB's, I was wondering if this translated over to real TFs?

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Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind

OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!