In-Testing: Task / Strike Force and Trial Missions
By
1_800_Spines,
Posted on: 2008-02-26 15:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The fact that Lighthouse is actually trying to justify these actions by blaming RMT people is ridiculous.
Farming Caps was under NO circumstances good money. It was TERRIBLE money. But I did it anyways because...
A. I wanted to help out the market
B. There was virtually no other way for me to get those recipes for my characters.
Farming TV missions, and the Boat mission is FAR better money, and I doubt the RMT people would even bother trying to put teams together for Caps.
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Ok, so here is the problem with this change.
Synapse. 8 people. I know all of them and love them, 1 of them is my husband, 1 of them me.
About 30 minutes in, hubby and I start mapserving occasionally. Nothing big, haven't dropped, but we're getting a little annoyed.
2 hours in. We both drop - cable's out.
Now there's a team of 6 (Synapse requires 4). Because we went link-dead, we're still on the team. But the cable's out - who knows when it'll get back on, and hell, maybe we're so annoyed with the mapserving we say screw it, and rent a movie.
...
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If you understand it is your connection when you start dropping (like say resetting the cable modem fixes it), then realize you may hard drop and tell your friends you'll bow out rather than risk it (or at least discuss it with them to see what they want to do, maybe they think, given the team make up, they could brute force it even if you two do drop).
At least this way, their is your ability to control it. For an example, what if the Task Force was one with a 6 person minimum and you started it with 6. Under what's currently on live, you'd have no recourse and the team would be doing the mission with 4 people with spawns of 6. With the change, you can at least realize what is going on and preemptively quit and allow the spawn size to scale.
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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Ok, so here is the problem with this change.
Synapse. 8 people. I know all of them and love them, 1 of them is my husband, 1 of them me.
About 30 minutes in, hubby and I start mapserving occasionally. Nothing big, haven't dropped, but we're getting a little annoyed.
2 hours in. We both drop - cable's out.
Now there's a team of 6 (Synapse requires 4). Because we went link-dead, we're still on the team. But the cable's out - who knows when it'll get back on, and hell, maybe we're so annoyed with the mapserving we say screw it, and rent a movie.
...
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If you understand it is your connection when you start dropping (like say resetting the cable modem fixes it), then realize you may hard drop and tell your friends you'll bow out rather than risk it (or at least discuss it with them to see what they want to do, maybe they think, given the team make up, they could brute force it even if you two do drop).
At least this way, their is your ability to control it. For an example, what if the Task Force was one with a 6 person minimum and you started it with 6. Under what's currently on live, you'd have no recourse and the team would be doing the mission with 4 people with spawns of 6. With the change, you can at least realize what is going on and preemptively quit and allow the spawn size to scale.
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What?!?
How could they know it was their cable until it actually dropped? It's not like they were pulling up the command prompt and running tracerts the whole time. Average player won't realize it's their connection until the game drops them and then they can't get anything up with IE/FF/Whatever.
So assuming someone goes "gee, it's kind of laggy tonight, stupid mapservs". And then they disconnect for whatever reason, you give the team no way to control if they player stays in the TF while offline, or can be kicked.
But you can't tell me you honestly believe that someone would know it's their connection and not the server (cause it's never the server, right?) until it's already too late.
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Lets address your last point 1st. There is no way to get a pool c recipe other than to complete a tf. They are not generated in any other way. Thus, that content is no longer available to casual players.
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It is still available to all players, it's just more troublesome for PuGs. PuGs, are not the same thing as casual players. This content is intended for "casual groups of friends" (Posi's words) who know each other and can rely on each other.
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exploit. Tf''s have been around for how long? and they just decided that this was a horrible exploit that desperately needed fixing? This is a case of the cure being worse than the disease.
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I don't have the Dev's numbers, but with this being pushed through as an exploit fix, it sounds like someone gave the order to FIX IT NOW. Perhaps some recent activity uncovered the need? Or perhaps something is happening to TFs in an upcoming update?
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It is already hard enough to get the required 7 playeers to do manti. Onc you have people forming tf's and kicking the "excess" non sg members from the team to make the spawn sizes smaller, it will become near impossible. I predict your will see this form of asshattery within 2 weeks of this going live.
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I am sure that @ssh@ttery will happen. That is the fault of the @ssh@ts, not the Devs.
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The more stupid, reactionary, poorly thought out changes you see like this, the more players this game will lose. I see less of th long term players that I used to see on all the time. BS like this won make it any better. This fix is most likely a way to blow off he promise to actually fix the old tf's.
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I have yet to see an alternate suggestion by any player that is any better. Every suggestion that makes it more difficult to softload is going to be trouble for PuGs by definition; the game can't tell if you are logging off to save a baby or to start another TF with your other account. I do hope tech can be developed to kick offline players from TFs, but players will abuse/exploit that, too.
I am more confident now than ever that the TFs will be redone. The first step in that direction was Ouroboros, IMHO. They can make all the TFs Flashbackable, and the people who will inevitably complain that they preferred the OLD Positron TF can be directed to Ouroboros.
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This change will not cripple me. This change will not make me cry moar and leev. this change has made me more open to look at other games. Currently I play city of heroes, but if changes take the fun out, I will not be averse to looking at other games. I ve been playing a little eq2 and guildwars lately. Other promising games are on the horizon. The devs need to realize they are in business, and pissing off your customers for no obvious reason is not a really good idea. This change is not that large in the great scheme of things, but a lot of little changes can have large consequences.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Ok, so here is the problem with this change.
Synapse. 8 people. I know all of them and love them, 1 of them is my husband, 1 of them me.
About 30 minutes in, hubby and I start mapserving occasionally. Nothing big, haven't dropped, but we're getting a little annoyed.
2 hours in. We both drop - cable's out.
Now there's a team of 6 (Synapse requires 4). Because we went link-dead, we're still on the team. But the cable's out - who knows when it'll get back on, and hell, maybe we're so annoyed with the mapserving we say screw it, and rent a movie.
...
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If you understand it is your connection when you start dropping (like say resetting the cable modem fixes it), then realize you may hard drop and tell your friends you'll bow out rather than risk it (or at least discuss it with them to see what they want to do, maybe they think, given the team make up, they could brute force it even if you two do drop).
At least this way, their is your ability to control it. For an example, what if the Task Force was one with a 6 person minimum and you started it with 6. Under what's currently on live, you'd have no recourse and the team would be doing the mission with 4 people with spawns of 6. With the change, you can at least realize what is going on and preemptively quit and allow the spawn size to scale.
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What?!?
How could they know it was their cable until it actually dropped? It's not like they were pulling up the command prompt and running tracerts the whole time. Average player won't realize it's their connection until the game drops them and then they can't get anything up with IE/FF/Whatever.
So assuming someone goes "gee, it's kind of laggy tonight, stupid mapservs". And then they disconnect for whatever reason, you give the team no way to control if they player stays in the TF while offline, or can be kicked.
But you can't tell me you honestly believe that someone would know it's their connection and not the server (cause it's never the server, right?) until it's already too late.
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I understand your argument. I play a lot of online games and sometimes when my team mates have a poor connection, we won't run stuff because we don't want to deal with them dropping.
If someone's not that savvy to realize what's going on, ok, sure I can see that. As I said above, we acknowledge that there is more we can do. However, for those people who do understand how their connectivity works and what's going on when they have a poor connection can deal with that by quitting.
Additionally, a team leader can take the step to tell the person who's dc'ing a lot that they are just going to kick them rather than dealing with the disconnecting player. Hopefully they do it in such a manner that doesn't bend feelings and they can group again another day. I myself have been in similar situations and done just that. The joys of running PUGs.
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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Ok, so here is the problem with this change.
Synapse. 8 people. I know all of them and love them, 1 of them is my husband, 1 of them me.
About 30 minutes in, hubby and I start mapserving occasionally. Nothing big, haven't dropped, but we're getting a little annoyed.
2 hours in. We both drop - cable's out.
Now there's a team of 6 (Synapse requires 4). Because we went link-dead, we're still on the team. But the cable's out - who knows when it'll get back on, and hell, maybe we're so annoyed with the mapserving we say screw it, and rent a movie.
...
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If you understand it is your connection when you start dropping (like say resetting the cable modem fixes it), then realize you may hard drop and tell your friends you'll bow out rather than risk it (or at least discuss it with them to see what they want to do, maybe they think, given the team make up, they could brute force it even if you two do drop).
At least this way, their is your ability to control it. For an example, what if the Task Force was one with a 6 person minimum and you started it with 6. Under what's currently on live, you'd have no recourse and the team would be doing the mission with 4 people with spawns of 6. With the change, you can at least realize what is going on and preemptively quit and allow the spawn size to scale.
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Lighthouse, these are all excuses that you're giving... pipe dreams. We aren't psychics, we can't predict things will go wrong. If we could, we wouldn't waste an hour on a TF. People would send us a tell "Hey, wanna do Citadel?" And we'd say "Sorry, I don't have the time."
You're basically saying that someone on a so-so connection should never run a TF so that they don't hinder their friends if they happen to drop out in the middle, and can't get back on.
It's broken, and you know it.
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My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
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To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
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Than give Villains the equivalent of Katie. We have said this multiple times, the ONLY thing that was keeping Villains pool C market alive was the Quick Caps.
You just effectively ruined the Villains pool C market.
Way to go.
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Perhaps it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but the change is one that we view as necessary. 7 people benefiting from one person's actions is just wrong in our eyes.
We understand there are concerns with the impact of the market and more we can do on that front. We are listening, watching and playing ourselves.
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Heres a novel concept.
Why don't you wait to nerf the Cap runs UNTIL you actually have a good alternative.
My bad, we all know its Cryptic/NCsofts design method to nerf something, than wait *years* before you fix it. (Why hello thar, Enhancement Diversification!)
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My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
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To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
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Why don't you make it so that those 7 people don't get the reward because they have not been on the tf/sf long enough? You have that coding in for people who join teams in the middle of a mission, why not employ it for TFs? If a person is not logged in for 6 of the 10 missions (or whatever ratio you want to use) have it not reward them with anything. If someone is forced to log out because of power outages or husband/wife aggro, then they have more to be worrying about than getting a reward for a tf/sf.
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Could you have a counter that trips in say , 4 of the missions? If your toon does not enter those 4 misisons, you get nothing. There is no indication when you trip the counter.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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...
Given the choice between what's on live and what's on test now, I choose what's on live. For a fast partial fix, I'd much rather see minimums reduced on task forces. But any of them, what's on live now, what's on test, or a minor fix like reducing minimums, would be a lot easier to live with if I had any reason to believe the devs see any problem with task/strike forces other than closing an exploit and would be doing anything about them in the future.
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If you believe we are blind to concerns or input about current TF/SF/Trial content I can assure you we are not. However, I would pose the argument of opportunity cost. In some cases, depending on the scope, you could get a whole new TF out of revamping an old one. So, would you rather have the Lady Gray TF or a revamped Positron?
As we continue to ramp things up, we will better be in the position where we can just do both. We appreciate your continued support and patronage to get us there.
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That's the "if we're going to do new stuff, the old stuff has to fester" argue that makes me think you DON'T understand the problems in TFs as they exist. The fact that you describe them as "concerns" and "input" rather than "problems" is telling.
I understand limited budgets, I understand that you can't do everything. But there are simple things that COULD be done with far less time than this change took.
(1) Fix the minimum numbers to start. With the except of the STF and the Hallows trial, there's no reason for any TF heroside to require more than 6 to start, and unless there's a particular challenge I'd start make it 4.
(2) Spend a day or two going through the TFs, figuring out the unnecessary redundant missions, and modify the mission list and tweak the text accordingly.
(3) Cut the size of pool C to half of what it is now, moving most of the mezzes and such to Pool B. Or if you're willing to commit a little code to it, dump all of Pool C into Pool B, increase the chance of a Pool B drop for every mission, and everyone gets a Pool B at the end of the TF. Bonus, this lets you kill the TF timer
(4) To discourage softloading, you could increase the rewards when defeating the foes in a mission, so the extra influence earned by doing the TF by the rules is enough to buy the weak recipe Sam's going to get by softloading. Wait! This was already done, so you may have already done enough to discourage softloading without any of these changes.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
QR
Seems like an "OK" fix, but I would have preferred a "BETTER" fix.
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My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
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To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
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Than give Villains the equivalent of Katie. We have said this multiple times, the ONLY thing that was keeping Villains pool C market alive was the Quick Caps.
You just effectively ruined the Villains pool C market.
Way to go.
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I am not being snarky, but truely want to know. If you can do the cap sf in 30 min or less, why do you need katie? They have the same rewards, but the cap doesnt have 10 av's. What is the difference? I havent done the cap sf(havent found a team) but would like to know.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Hurricanes off the coast and they have a window they want to fix...they are boarding it up till the hurricane passes and then when things calm down they might give it a good fixin.
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I understand your argument. I play a lot of online games and sometimes when my team mates have a poor connection, we won't run stuff because we don't want to deal with them dropping.
If someone's not that savvy to realize what's going on, ok, sure I can see that. As I said above, we acknowledge that there is more we can do. However, for those people who do understand how their connectivity works and what's going on when they have a poor connection can deal with that by quitting.
Additionally, a team leader can take the step to tell the person who's dc'ing a lot that they are just going to kick them rather than dealing with the disconnecting player. Hopefully they do it in such a manner that doesn't bend feelings and they can group again another day. I myself have been in similar situations and done just that. The joys of running PUGs.
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So if someone has a questionable connection...no TF for you!
If it's during double-XP weekend or there's a special event (both of which can cause lag)...no TF for you!
If you are the caretaker for a parent/spouse/child and may have to go AFK for periods...no TF for you!
If you have a parent or spouse or someone who may need you to log off for a period and attend to something else...no TF for you!
If you're the sort of person who a friend can call and say "Hey, man, I'm stuck at the airport, my flight got in early and I really need a ride, can you come get me"...no TF for you!
And if you're the leader of a team and find you have anyone on your team who falls into any of those groups, the appropriate thing to do is kick them. Because otherwise, someone, somewhere might actually softload a TF and get a Trap of the Hunter recipe.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
I don't like this change; I much prefer how it was just before, where the minimum number required for a task force was actually the minimum number required for the task force. However, it's still much better than it was before that, with all of the exploiting and soft-loading and crazy gaming of the mechanics was going on.
It just goes to show that, like I said before, you're never going to please all of the people all of the time. That's okay, though, that shouldn't be the goal. The goal is to look out for the long-term health of the game, balancing what the players want now with what effects it will have. So in spite of how I think this change was a bad move, I'm willing to bear with it and see what happens. I hope others will do the same, as I wish they had when the previous change was rolled out.
I do have to comment, though, about the nature of the recipes that you get for completing a task force.
I still think that the original intent of rare recipes was that you wouldn't be able to completely deck out your character with them in short order. I still think that the original intent of them was that they would be highly prized when people got one, and that it would take on average more than a half hour to hour investment of time in order to be guaranteed one. Such is the nature of something that is, by definition, "rare."
With a rare recipe being given out for something that people are regularly doing in a half hour to hour maximum, it has destroyed the notion of rarity. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the new purple "ultra-rare" recipes have become what rare recipes were originally intended to be. One of the huge differences between the two is that there is no guaranteed way to get a purple recipe. As a direct result, I have yet to see even the crappiest of them on the market for less than 5 million influence, and most of them sell well in the 10- to 20 million influence range.
If you really want to stop the unbalanced task force risk vs. reward thing that's going on, I think that there's really only one logical thing to do: Take away the rare recipe reward for task forces. If not for all of them, at least for the ones that so ridiculously easy to complete so quickly.
You guys have the data that you can look at. Figure out how long the average x task force takes to complete. If it's less than two hours, no rare anything needs to be given out for it. If it's two to four hours, give out an uncommon recipe for it. If it's four or more hours, give out a rare recipe for it. Keep the ultra-rares as they are; they're working exactly like they should.
I'm not calling for this to be done immediately, and I'm sure not threatening to leave the game or anything silly like that if you don't. I'm just saying that I think one of the major problems here isn't one of game mechanics, it's with a common perception, one I think is a misperception, that rare recipes are supposed to be relatively easy to get. It's hard to try to put a genie back in its bottle without making people angry in the process, which is why I think we're seeing so much crying in these threads. But I still think that the root cause of these problems--that rare recipes aren't rare, and they're given as a reward for something people have discovered how to do quickly and easily with virtually no risk involved--needs to be addressed at some point.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
That made me chuckle, maybe someone needs to remind the Dev's that this is just a game.
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This change and the previous one is bad because it still allows for some teammates to grief your team should they choose to log off and not quit. I have had it to happen twice since the first change on a few tfs I have done. Once on Katie hannon and once Sara Moore TFs. We need a way to be able to kick people from the team that are not currently logged in. Secondly neither of these changes have done anything to address the reason why this softloading of tf/sfs happens in the first place. If the recipes that people can actually use were more readily accessable we would not be going thru this now in the first place. Either address the issue with the drop pools or you are doing all this for nothing and all it is doing is punishing the rest of the playerbase instead of farmers.
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Understandable and thanks for the feedback. However, I would have to advise you to better get to know the people you are grouping with. Simply put, if someone has a reputation for such, don't engage in a task / strike force or trial with them. You would be well advised to only take your most trusted allies with you to tackle such challenging and dangerous missions!
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I somewhat agree with you on this (except I think PUGs should be able to do them as well without having to worry about griefing) but want to point out that the last sentence of your response really came across like someone talking down to a child. 
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I am not being snarky, but truely want to know. If you can do the cap sf in 30 min or less, why do you need katie? They have the same rewards, but the cap doesnt have 10 av's. What is the difference? I havent done the cap sf(havent found a team) but would like to know.
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Katie is much faster than the Cap SF.
With a decent team, Cap takes 45-50 minutes.
With a decent team, Katie takes 20-30 minutes.
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Heres a novel concept.
Why don't you wait to nerf the Cap runs UNTIL you actually have a good alternative.
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I completely agree 100% with this statement. Fix it when you can fix it completely. You rolled back the CM stack nerf, the Stalker fixes, and everything else because you wanted to do something better with them.
Bad decision all around, Devs.
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I'm going to add my voice to those opposing this change.
I don't like the idea that my current ONLINE gaming can be affected in any way by OFFLINE players.
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If you are worried about it, always be the leader. If you see someone starting the logoff countdown and honestly think they are going to try to grief you, boot them before it gets to zero.
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I somewhat agree with you on this (except I think PUGs should be able to do them as well without having to worry about griefing) but want to point out that the last sentence of your response really came across like someone talking down to a child.
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When someone acts like a child, that's the response they get.
To those who are doing the most griping, bellyaching, and finger-pointing at devs, in this thread, I ask this:
Are you having fun playing the game anymore? From what you guys and gals are saying, or inferring, it sounds to me like fun has left the building a long time ago. Why are you still here if you think that the devs are doing nothing but your gaming life more difficult? What keeps you in Paragon City/Rogue Isles?
Take a step back...enjoy life for a minute. Deep breaths, focus on something that actually means something, and then come back and try to enjoy what's here. If there truly isn't anything worth coming back for, it might be time to try something else.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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That made me chuckle, maybe someone needs to remind the Dev's that this is just a game.
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It was till they added loot. Then it became a JOB for the RMT'ers. That's what is so funny about all of this.
Perhaps I would be upset if on my last multi Cap run I didn't end up with more useless recipes than I did useful ones. I didn't think that TF spawn sizes were a big deal in the first place. All this did was completely empty the villain side market of pool C recipes.
The odd actions of this Dev team has really opened my eyes to the other alternatives out there, which make me sad.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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I somewhat agree with you on this (except I think PUGs should be able to do them as well without having to worry about griefing) but want to point out that the last sentence of your response really came across like someone talking down to a child.
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When someone acts like a child, that's the response they get.
To those who are doing the most griping, bellyaching, and finger-pointing at devs, in this thread, I ask this:
Are you having fun playing the game anymore? From what you guys and gals are saying, or inferring, it sounds to me like fun has left the building a long time ago. Why are you still here if you think that the devs are doing nothing but your gaming life more difficult? What keeps you in Paragon City/Rogue Isles?
Take a step back...enjoy life for a minute. Deep breaths, focus on something that actually means something, and then come back and try to enjoy what's here. If there truly isn't anything worth coming back for, it might be time to try something else.
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Some of us are waiting for the fun to return. That's all.
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This probably doesn't need to be asked but might as well be through,
LH, do these TF changes also apply to the Oroborous Taskforces and the Flashback Taskforces themselves? I hope so.
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Yes they do. Flashback missions use the same code as Task / Strike Force Missions.
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So let the farming begin, start yourself up an Unai Kemen Arc in Oro, get 5 throw away characters that aren't played and have them logout, insta 6 man spawns for 23 missions!
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Nice.
The rmt'ers are just gonna get smart and start selling recipes or crafted io's instead of money.
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Perhaps it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but the change is one that we view as necessary. 7 people benefiting from one person's actions is just wrong in our eyes.
We understand there are concerns with the impact of the market and more we can do on that front. We are listening, watching and playing ourselves.
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Then by your logic, ALL farming should be stopped immediately.
I can load up my fire/kin, invite 3 level 46-49 players, have them SK 3 lower level players, sk someone myself, and I'm off... one person's actions benefiting 7 other people. Happening EVERY day.
Still waiting on a reasonable answer as to why TFs were bothered with when you guys have bigger things on your plate to worry about.
RMT'ers are here to stay. I think you should focus on making sure the players are going to stay. That should be your priority.