In-Testing: Task / Strike Force and Trial Missions
By
1_800_Spines,
Posted on: 2008-02-26 15:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
This is a good compromise.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
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To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
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Why don't you make it so that those 7 people don't get the reward because they have not been on the tf/sf long enough? You have that coding in for people who join teams in the middle of a mission, why not employ it for TFs? If a person is not logged in for 6 of the 10 missions (or whatever ratio you want to use) have it not reward them with anything. If someone is forced to log out because of power outages or husband/wife aggro, then they have more to be worrying about than getting a reward for a tf/sf.
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This change and the previous one is bad because it still allows for some teammates to grief your team should they choose to log off and not quit. I have had it to happen twice since the first change on a few tfs I have done. Once on Katie hannon and once Sara Moore TFs. We need a way to be able to kick people from the team that are not currently logged in. Secondly neither of these changes have done anything to address the reason why this softloading of tf/sfs happens in the first place. If the recipes that people can actually use were more readily accessable we would not be going thru this now in the first place. Either address the issue with the drop pools or you are doing all this for nothing and all it is doing is punishing the rest of the playerbase instead of farmers.
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Understandable and thanks for the feedback. However, I would have to advise you to better get to know the people you are grouping with. Simply put, if someone has a reputation for such, don't engage in a task / strike force or trial with them. You would be well advised to only take your most trusted allies with you to tackle such challenging and dangerous missions!
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Server population coupled with TF/SF minimums make what you are suggesting here good on paper but hard to pull-off in game. To my knowledge, the only way to gauge reputation is by experience with people. There is no way to track rep (ala something like Ebay or Xbox live) and since sometimes you simply CANNOT fill those last 2 spots needed to form TF/SF with trusted friends... you must turn to randoms. OR, you don't do the TF/SF. And don't you want to make TF/SF MORE attractive rather than less? You are nearly to the point of having Rare drops being THE only incentive to do these things... especially if you have done them all already.
If you rednames are going to be tinkering with TF/SF ANYWAY, you may as well address the real issues here: 1) minimum team size 2)pool drop reconsiderations 3)ability to kick logged-off members from a TF/SF
These changes should be looked into before further fussing about with the current system. If it involves altering tech directly relating the TF/SF, i'm sure the playerbase wouldn't mind waiting for a fix to actually fix all the issues. As it stands now, you guys are robbing Peter to pay Paul.
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My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
[/ QUOTE ]
To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
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Of course, a hybrid solution could do the same thing:
-The TF spawns a number of mobs according to a team size generated by the following rule:
The Greater of:
<ul type="square">[*]The lesser of the minimum number of team members needed to begin the task force and the number of team members still in the task force, regardless of login status[*]The number of team members currently logged in[/list]
Of course, that would be really hard to explain to some people...
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My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
[/ QUOTE ]
To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
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Why don't you make it so that those 7 people don't get the reward because they have not been on the tf/sf long enough? You have that coding in for people who join teams in the middle of a mission, why not employ it for TFs? If a person is not logged in for 6 of the 10 missions (or whatever ratio you want to use) have it not reward them with anything. If someone is forced to log out because of power outages or husband/wife aggro, then they have more to be worrying about than getting a reward for a tf/sf.
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We considered that option along with others, but given our timeline for Issue 12 we didn't go that route. It involved a lot of risky coding in our current development cycle where we are trying to close this live branch and shift to Issue 12. We felt this was a good compromise to address immediate concerns.
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
[/ QUOTE ]
To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why don't you make it so that those 7 people don't get the reward because they have not been on the tf/sf long enough? You have that coding in for people who join teams in the middle of a mission, why not employ it for TFs? If a person is not logged in for 6 of the 10 missions (or whatever ratio you want to use) have it not reward them with anything. If someone is forced to log out because of power outages or husband/wife aggro, then they have more to be worrying about than getting a reward for a tf/sf.
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We considered that option along with others, but given our timeline for Issue 12 we didn't go that route. It involved a lot of risky coding in our current development cycle where we are trying to close this live branch and shift to Issue 12. We felt this was a good compromise to address immediate concerns.
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You know Lighthouse, even though some of us may disagree with this change, I do appreciate you coming on the boards to explain things.
I missed the part about the RMT thing. That modifies my feelings on the matter.
Maybe in the future you guys can use the other posters suggestion that if you have not spent enough time in the TF, then you don't get the reward. I like this suggestion as if someone logs, the rest of the team doesn't get hurt by larger spawns, but still addresses the your concerns about exploiting the TF.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
I still would like the ability to add/invite new players/teammates to a TF/SF if it goes below the minimum for the TF/SF (if the others have QUIT and not just logged off).
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
All I can say is wow, if you thought farming reached it's peak, welcome to the New City of Ouroboros Farming.
Ingredients:
1 High Level Ouroboros Arc
4-5 High Level Alts (if you have multiple accounts this is nice since you don't need to keep logging them in)
1 Highly proficient killing machine
Mix altogether, have High Level Alts log and enjoy numerous missions spawned to your liking. Maybe this will cut down on the tells asking for anchors/fillers.
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My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
[/ QUOTE ]
To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
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I don't think ANYONE has spoken in favor of the behavior you want to stop. But these changes will hurt people who are playing by the rules. And more, it has shown a bright spotlight on the problems that ENCOURAGE that behavior.
Specifically:
(1) Due to the imbalance of players between CoH and CoV, the lack of SFs villainside and the lack of a fast exciting TF like the Croatoa TF, the supply of recipes available redside is much reduced.
(2) Due to the range of the recipes in Pool C, the odds of getting a recipe that I would want to use is fairly low and the odds of one that can be sold for more than an generic invention recipe is even lower. For all the talk about the great work for great effort, the reward you get at the end of completing a TF is likely to suck.
(3) Heroside, the minimum numbers for task force are completely out of whack from what even a reasonably competent team would require to achieve victory, meaning the first and sometimes most difficult challenge is "get enough people to start". Allowing us to have people join to start and then quit is not a solution.
(4) While the latter TFs are great, and as I've said before I consider the Lady Grey TF a work of art (though you could cut Infernia's monologue in half), so many of the old TFs are grindy slogs that just aren't a lot of fun. And maybe you could justify that if there really was a great reward for completing it, but see problem (2)
And the ONLY response we've gotten to any of the problems highlighted by this change was "Well, we're not talking about rewards in this thread."
If, accompanying this change, there was some acknowledgement of the problems, a statement that you'll be working on a solution to them (and I'm not even asking for a commitment to Issue 12, I know that's locked in by now), it would have gone down a lot easier. But as near as we can tell, the ONLY issue that NCNC sees with taskforces and strikeforces is that people can softload.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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I still would like the ability to add/invite new players/teammates to a TF/SF if it goes below the minimum for the TF/SF (if the others have QUIT and not just logged off).
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I don't like this idea. People who haven't had any part in the task force could be brought in right at the end and collect a nice, shiny reward. You might even run into people kicking other players off at the last minute just so they could invite an alt on another account.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
[/ QUOTE ]
To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
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Thanks for the compromise. Now make it better by adjusting the dilluted pool C drops before you kill the already anemic BM, please 
I'd really like a comment on the developer "vision" regarding the current state of the market redside and the redside market that will be in existence in a month or less. What are the plans in the works to address that inevitable situation? Most likely what will happen now is RMT 'rs will start selling recipe's or craffted enhancements instead of enfamy//influence. Whats easier? Buy a Miracle unique for 50.00 or pay 150.00 for 140mill enfamy?
Thanks for reading
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My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
[/ QUOTE ]
To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
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Than give Villains the equivalent of Katie. We have said this multiple times, the ONLY thing that was keeping Villains pool C market alive was the Quick Caps.
You just effectively ruined the Villains pool C market.
Way to go.
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We considered that option along with others, but given our timeline for Issue 12 we didn't go that route. It involved a lot of risky coding in our current development cycle where we are trying to close this live branch and shift to Issue 12. We felt this was a good compromise to address immediate concerns.
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The problem is the Issue 12 is going to be months before it goes live (even if closed beta starts next week) and probably won't include a further fix to this. So the temporary fix imposed on us will probably last until 12.5 or later. That's assuming that, after people deal with it long enough, you don't say "well, the sky didn't fall, so I guess we don't have to do any more." And given how long old problems have been allowed to fester, and your own comments about the problems with the Eden trial, I'm not ready to make that assumption.
I love doing TFs, and I love doing PuG TFs. I love a semi-random group of heros working on a shared story to save the day. But in PuG TFs, sometimes players go offline, sometimes they come back later, sometimes they don't or can't. At least on live, if the team size was greater than the minimum to start, no harm, but with this proposed change, the team has to face an artificially greater challenge.
Given the choice between what's on live and what's on test now, I choose what's on live. For a fast partial fix, I'd much rather see minimums reduced on task forces. But any of them, what's on live now, what's on test, or a minor fix like reducing minimums, would be a lot easier to live with if I had any reason to believe the devs see any problem with task/strike forces other than closing an exploit and would be doing anything about them in the future.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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This is a good compromise.
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If you hate villains. Which, you know, I gotta say, im usually not one to rail on the devs for "zomg they hate villains"...
...But... Actions really speak louder than words. Everything the Devs have done recently have basically screwed villains over.
Way to go.
Yes, the compromise is fine. Simply not a wel lthought out " fix" to a behavior affecting a mediocre sized % of the whole population. The side effects to the market, however, will be devastating. I suppose that doesn't affect " Joe Gamer". I'm not " Joe Gamer" and am irked to hell and back.
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My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
[/ QUOTE ]
To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
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Than give Villains the equivalent of Katie. We have said this multiple times, the ONLY thing that was keeping Villains pool C market alive was the Quick Caps.
You just effectively ruined the Villains pool C market.
Way to go.
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Perhaps it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but the change is one that we view as necessary. 7 people benefiting from one person's actions is just wrong in our eyes.
We understand there are concerns with the impact of the market and more we can do on that front. We are listening, watching and playing ourselves.
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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I still would like the ability to add/invite new players/teammates to a TF/SF if it goes below the minimum for the TF/SF (if the others have QUIT and not just logged off).
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I don't like this idea. People who haven't had any part in the task force could be brought in right at the end and collect a nice, shiny reward. You might even run into people kicking other players off at the last minute just so they could invite an alt on another account.
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Yeah, but when they get around to the whole "If you haven't been on a TF long enough you can't get a reward," thing like in regular missions and mission end bonuses, then it would work out.
But yeah, I agree that it could be abused until that time.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
Was anyone actually exploiting this? Doing the 8 simo tf's? Im just kinda curious what drove this to the top of the priority list. All this disruption to fix a behavior that has been available through out the games existence. Is it an exploit if the behavior was not using a bug, rather, living within the parameters designed by the devs. When did this cease being a playstyle and become a violation?
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Lighthouse,
Do you know if the option of adding an ability to kick offline teammates was looked at? It's something many people are requesting to deal with quits-by-logging and perma-disconnects. Is this a case of the tech not being there for a quick change, or is something the design team decided against? If it was just not having the tech around when you wanted to rush the fix, is there any chance you'd look at it in the future?
I really like this change and do think it actually will successfully cut down the exploiting, but I think adding an option to kick offline players would cut down on this change's effect on regular teams.
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...
Given the choice between what's on live and what's on test now, I choose what's on live. For a fast partial fix, I'd much rather see minimums reduced on task forces. But any of them, what's on live now, what's on test, or a minor fix like reducing minimums, would be a lot easier to live with if I had any reason to believe the devs see any problem with task/strike forces other than closing an exploit and would be doing anything about them in the future.
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If you believe we are blind to concerns or input about current TF/SF/Trial content I can assure you we are not. However, I would pose the argument of opportunity cost. In some cases, depending on the scope, you could get a whole new TF out of revamping an old one. So, would you rather have the Lady Gray TF or a revamped Positron?
As we continue to ramp things up, we will better be in the position where we can just do both. We appreciate your continued support and patronage to get us there.
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
Ok, so here is the problem with this change.
Synapse. 8 people. I know all of them and love them, 1 of them is my husband, 1 of them me.
About 30 minutes in, hubby and I start mapserving occasionally. Nothing big, haven't dropped, but we're getting a little annoyed.
2 hours in. We both drop - cable's out.
Now there's a team of 6 (Synapse requires 4). Because we went link-dead, we're still on the team. But the cable's out - who knows when it'll get back on, and hell, maybe we're so annoyed with the mapserving we say screw it, and rent a movie.
6 people with DO's or IOs with clockwork spawning in spawns of 8.
*that's* the problem with this change.
Nevermind the fact that we're *going* to be doing TFs with PuGs, whether you intended it or not. All you need are 2-3 griefers who are smart enough to keep their mouths shut and just go "link dead" 1 hour into the TF. Nothing a leader can do.
Also, with this method, farmers can choose their spawn amount - 6 - for farming goodies.
I don't even understand why it went in... force groups, but now you can do all TFs with 2 people if you wanted. A good solo-artist can easily do 2 people on heroic.
Stop farming of recipes? Huh? I run Katie's a lot. It's *always* a full team, and the hardest part is killing Mary 10 times.
Keeping people from soft-loading MSTF and MLRSF? Why not set the minimum spawn size to 6 on those TFs, and only those TFs?
But hell, I'd rather have a "kick offline teammate" button. While you're at it, can we *please* be able to pass the star in TF mode? Sucks when the leader D/Cs and the next person's set to invincible and has no travel power...
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My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
[/ QUOTE ]
To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the semi reversion... I guess.
personally, I feel as though if you can solo any TF, you know what you are doing and will continue to do so whether it spawns for 8, 2 or one. This should alleviate conecerns about a mass /kick so that someone can solo an 8 person TF though.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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Lighthouse,
Do you know if the option of adding an ability to kick offline teammates was looked at? It's something many people are requesting to deal with quits-by-logging and perma-disconnects. Is this a case of the tech not being there for a quick change, or is something the design team decided against? If it was just not having the tech around when you wanted to rush the fix, is there any chance you'd look at it in the future?
I really like this change and do think it actually will successfully cut down the exploiting, but I think adding an option to kick offline players would cut down on this change's effect on regular teams.
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I commented on this above. We looked at a number of different changes and in the end this was the most easily implemented given our other priorities.
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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This a good change, the only ones complaining about it are the FARMERS, even tho they clam themselves to be "the avg player". LOL
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Epic fail. If you are on a tf that has a player dc'd because of bad weather ot the like, you are affected. Not just farmers.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
My two cents:
Obviously this is a middle ground between "how it used to be" and "how it is now on Live." Despite a substantial amount of rational arguments in favor of scrapping the change altogether and reverting back to the old system, the rednames seem adamant on shaking things up for god knows what reason...
[/ QUOTE ]
To reiterate my original statement about farming Task / Strike Force and Trial statements for RMT purposes and to echo Positron's follow up statement; the reason for the change to these missions is to curb the following behavior:
8 people start a Task Force.
7 people log off and allow the 1 character that's a strong solo build to solo to the end.
The 7 other people log on just before the finish.
Complete the mission and 8 people obtain Pool C rewards for the work of 1 person.
The above behavior is something that we are not allowing to continue.
We understand that there is more work that can be done on these missions. We appreciate and value your feedback on that front.
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.