In-Testing: Task / Strike Force and Trial Missions
By
1_800_Spines,
Posted on: 2008-02-26 15:44 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Interestingly enough, this change makes it easier to farm Pool C's from certain TFs by being able to reduce their challenge level below a certain team size, thus preventing certain sizes/contents of spawns. Eg, under Live, it's impossible to run the LGTF without spawning bosses; with this change you can rebalance the TF to any level you want, including a team size that only spawns up to LT's.
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It does in certian circumstances but it will stop the loaded to 8 cap runs.
I still like the live version over this newer version.
~MR
AE Arc: 305214 Blood Diamonds (Villainous)
Unleashed/Unchained/B.O.S.S.
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let me restate I do not want this change unless you guys can make a way to kick offline players, which doesn't seem possible without making a "team vote to kick" option that includes both online and offline players on the TF/SF.
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Why? Any griefer can do far worse.
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I believe the concern is over fringe cases where you have several legitimate player drops (ISP outage, power failure, etc.) but no way to rebalance the missions to account for that. In the current system, this isn't a problem unless you drop below the starting requirement. With this change, you would have to suffer through the spawns untill the end or just quit the T/SF. I'm not sure how often something like that would really come up though.
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It will come up as often as there are disconnects.
Under the system currently on Live, you can have a buffer where drops do not adversely affect your team.
Quits aren't counted at all for spawn sizes and log outs count as active if spawn size < or = min.
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I refer you to the design of the TF itself:
- hours of content.
- can't invite more people to replace dropouts.
- designed with code to allow play over multiple sessions.
- Can't do regular missions in between.
Also, this quote by Positron:
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However, we saw a desire for a group of friends to get together and do some hard, lengthy content for good rewards. This is how Task Forces were born. They are the "casual" raid, something you can plan with your buddies that you are going to do on a certain day and for a certain amount of time, but you didn't need 30 or 60 people to pull it off.
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also
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Now TFs and SFs were made for the casual group of friends. This means that the group could persist over several game sessions. To do this we made it so that when you logged off, or lost connection, you didn't drop out of the group. Coming back into the game you would find that your character was still on the TF. This way you could run a TF "every Friday night from 8 to 9" and if all the participants agreed, you could progress the TF a little bit every week.
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Granted, he does use the phrase 'casual group of friends', but he goes on to describe play that is definitely NOT PuG style.
Casual != PuG in this case, it would appear.
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Except that Positron said in that post that they found that most TFs WERE PuGs. And speaking personally, in almost 4 years of playing the game, the times where I've done a TF only with trusted friends is almost non-existant.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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Now TFs and SFs were made for the casual group of friends. This means that the group could persist over several game sessions. To do this we made it so that when you logged off, or lost connection, you didn't drop out of the group. Coming back into the game you would find that your character was still on the TF. This way you could run a TF "every Friday night from 8 to 9" and if all the participants agreed, you could progress the TF a little bit every week.
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Who in their right mind wouldn't want to play their character for a few weeks? Sometimes I wonder what they are smoking.
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Granted, he does use the phrase 'casual group of friends', but he goes on to describe play that is definitely NOT PuG style.
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I don't think he is describing any normal players playstyle.
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Casual != PuG in this case, it would appear.
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By this definition, I'd have to say nearly every TF I've ever completed was a PuG and probably the majority of TF's run are PuG's. That's pickup group, correct? Nothing was planned, some I knew from various channels, but really I don't consider them casual friends.
This probably doesn't need to be asked but might as well be through,
LH, do these TF changes also apply to the Oroborous Taskforces and the Flashback Taskforces themselves? I hope so.
"Superman died fighting Doomsday because he allowed his toggles to drop, and didn't beat Doomsday before Unstoppable wore off, sad really..."
This latest change is an improvement in terms of letting teams deal with attrition better, so that's good. At the same time, it effectively neuters much of the original intent of the fix -- softloading. Given that, the whole exercise seems a bit of a wash.
The required number to start TFs and SFs should still be lowered where applicable. I'd suggest a maximum to start of four players. It would be helpful if such a change was done in a timely manner.
But most importantly, the developers need to sit down amongst themselves and decide once and for all what task forces are supposed to be, who they are supposed to be for and what rewards they should offer. So far these changes have just muddied things rather than clarified them. If they are satisfied with how they are working now, that's fine. If not, the devs need to decide if they are willing or able to devote the time and resources to adjust TFs as necessary.
The only part of me which doesn't like it is the part that likes to duo TFs but go back up to 8 for the recipe at the end. And the change is excellent for precisely that reason.
Hate soft loading? Congrats, it's now *actually* fixed. Before you could still softload and 8 man Posi for 3. Less effecting than softloading an 8 man TF for 1? Sure, but it was still softloading and still a mechanic the devs didn't want.
Think it sucked that if you lost a few people on a shadow shard you were royally screwed because you'd have 8 man spawns no matter what? Now it's not an issue so long as people are polite and quit before they go.
Hate people running 8x8 caps, each playing running one TF, and all meeting up at the end for 64 recipes? This is something that fixes that. If you want 8 recipes, you have to fight spawns for 8. Fair as far can be.
I would add an ability to kick offline teammates. Without it I think this is still worse than the old version. But it's a great improvement to what we have currently on live.
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Interestingly enough, this change makes it easier to farm Pool C's from certain TFs by being able to reduce their challenge level below a certain team size, thus preventing certain sizes/contents of spawns. Eg, under Live, it's impossible to run the LGTF without spawning bosses; with this change you can rebalance the TF to any level you want, including a team size that only spawns up to LT's.
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Before I could duo TFs set for 3 or 4 and get 8 recipes. Now if I want 8 recipes, I have to deal with 8 man spawns. Big improvement.
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This probably doesn't need to be asked but might as well be through,
LH, do these TF changes also apply to the Oroborous Taskforces and the Flashback Taskforces themselves? I hope so.
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The Ouroboros and Flashback "Task Forces" weren't affected by the original change (the one that's currently on Live) so I can't imagine they'd be affected by this change, since it's just an alteration of the previous TF change. It's not like the Ouroboros "Task Forces" are *really* Task Forces...
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This probably doesn't need to be asked but might as well be through,
LH, do these TF changes also apply to the Oroborous Taskforces and the Flashback Taskforces themselves? I hope so.
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The Ouroboros and Flashback "Task Forces" weren't affected by the original change (the one that's currently on Live) so I can't imagine they'd be affected by this change, since it's just an alteration of the previous TF change. It's not like the Ouroboros "Task Forces" are *really* Task Forces...
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Do we know that the Ouroboros Task Forces and Flashback weren't affected by the old change, and thus aren't affected by the new change?
Those are Task Forces in every other mechanism, except they have a minimum size to start of 1. So if the current system affects them, we'd never know it, because team spawns would never drop below the minimum size to start. But the change on Testing could affect Flashback story arcs. And given how long some heroside TFs are, that could be an issue.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
QR
I still have some concerns about the viability of completing TFs for casual, non-SG players. However, I do appreciate that the devs have put the TF change up for testing and commentary rather than presenting us with a fait accompli. This is definitely a step in the right direction.
That's a change for the best that I welcome with all my heart 
<QR>
Been reading this and while I haven't done many TF's recently (except Lady Gray <3), my husband and SG mates do them all the time. They will start PuG TF/SF's, all kinds of stuff. They love 'em. They've also mentioned people who will just disappear, log off, and mysteriously return in the middle of the last mission.
Now, I have loads of problems with frequent and unexpected AFK's, one of the reasons I rarely run TF/SF's, and being kicked for something popping up in RL doesn't make me want to go rush out and join a TF/SF right now.
So, if logging and returning towards the end for the big reward is the main problem that we want to kick people for, would being able to kick logged off people during the last mission be a good compromise? I mean, if someone's intent is to join a TF/SF, log off then join back up at the end (how they know when to log back on, I don't know), then kicking is what's wanted but we don't want to kick someone for RL emergencies so no kicking logged off people unless it's the last mission?
It's nice to know that the devs are willing to listen to what we have to say and are willing to work with us. I like that in devs.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
I don't disagree that most TFs are PuGs.
I do infer that this fact is not in accordance with the design and intent of TFs.
In any case, TFs aren't being denied to PuGs, but they are being made a little more difficult for them. Hence the testing. If the typical Positron PuG TF recruits 3 members and loses one due to RL, then the two remaining will have to deal with missions spawned for 3 IF they disco but do not quit. That's still within the realm of doable, and an improvement over Live.
I do agree with being able to kick offline TF members, but I'm not sure if it can be coded quickly.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I've done 500+ TF in my time on CoH and have never been kicked from a TF. I don't think this change will increase my chances of getting kicked. Also, it's not that big a difference from an 8 man spawn to a 6 man spawn.
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How many have you done under this system?
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
+Acceptable solution to Softloading.
-Still an Incomplete solution to the REASON that softloading had to be widely exploited.
Positron needs to make some REAL movement on this, there's been lots of ideas:<ul type="square">[*]this "fix" punishes Villains more than Heroes... Merge the markets already![*]Remove all Mezzes/Snipes from Pool-C, it's a Crap-Lottery right now[*]Just Weight the drops to make Snipes/Mezzes drop a lot less often.[*]Allow players to pick recipe-type by categories similar to SO selection.[/list]
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It's better but I would still like a feature to kick logged teammates.
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This, but make it team vote or timer.
On the other hand, unless a great deal of people are having trouble, I don't think it will be that big a problem.
MisterPiggins!
Comics Shaven Forums
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It does improve the QoL of a casual player over the previous change.
However, it does not improve the ability of the casual player to do TFs in the first place, nor is it intended to. It is an exploit fix. Exploit fixes take priority over QoL. If TFs are played less often as a result, that will be addressed later as necessary (on the other hand, maybe SF/TFs are being played more often than intended as it is).
TFs and SFs are intended for groups of players who know each other, not PuGs. If you can do one with a PuG, that is allowed and encouraged, but not supported. This may be a bad metaphor, but turbocharging your car engine may be allowed and even encouraged by your car manufacturer, but it is not necessarily supported, or considered normal use.
There is plenty of casual team content in the form of Invincible missions, AV missions, ans such, and can always be more.
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Lets address your last point 1st. There is no way to get a pool c recipe other than to complete a tf. They are not generated in any other way. Thus, that content is no longer available to casual players.
exploit. Tf''s have been around for how long? and they just decided that this was a horrible exploit that desperately needed fixing? This is a case of the cure being worse than the disease.
It is already hard enough to get the required 7 playeers to do manti. Onc you have people forming tf's and kicking the "excess" non sg members from the team to make the spawn sizes smaller, it will become near impossible. I predict your will see this form of asshattery within 2 weeks of this going live.
The more stupid, reactionary, poorly thought out changes you see like this, the more players this game will lose. I see less of th long term players that I used to see on all the time. BS like this won make it any better. This fix is most likely a way to blow off he promise to actually fix the old tf's.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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+Acceptable solution to Softloading.
-Still an Incomplete solution to the REASON that softloading had to be widely exploited.
Positron needs to make some REAL movement on this, there's been lots of ideas:<ul type="square">[*]this "fix" punishes Villains more than Heroes... Merge the markets already![*]Remove all Mezzes/Snipes from Pool-C, it's a Crap-Lottery right now[*]Just Weight the drops to make Snipes/Mezzes drop a lot less often.[*]Allow players to pick recipe-type by categories similar to SO selection.[/list]
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well first Ilr, I don't like your solutions. Merged markets imbalances supply and demand according to the resources at your side's disposal. If a villain wanted something they have to compete with hero money making resources.
The problem is that each set has an equal chance of dropping and the demand for some recipes is higher because more powers can use them, so it seems like there is a lot of crap. I found your link to be unreadable.
If you wieght supply to match demand then you will be left with no recipes actually being rare. Also you'll make all us mezzers not able to find our recipes as easily as you direct damage types. I mean I sell off my Sorccio Dervishes.
If you allow players to pick categories, then eveyrone will be picking Def and Heal categories for the uniques such as LotG and Numina's and thus making them extremely common.
Now, for the TF thing I don't like the changes, cause now if you have say a team of six, and two have logged off inexplicably you may not be able to fight the enemies anymore and the other four players would have give up on the TF cause the 4 can't fight 6 spawns and there will be no waiting for the others to come back. If a part of the wants to "try again tomorrow" the rest will have to agree or quit.
I think there should be some sort of compromise:
If (TeamSize < MinTeam) SpawnSize = TeamSize
Else If (TeamSize >= MinTeam AND MembersOnline < MinTeam) SpawnSize = MinTeam
Else If (TeamSize >= MinTeam AND MembersOnline >= MinTeam) SpawnSize = MembersOnline
Then lowwer the MinTeam on all the TF/SFs appropriately. I think that most TFs coudl go for four MinTeam with the exception of the LRSF and the STF and the LGTF which can be something like six MinTeam.
Why should a lotg rare be any more rare than a crap of the hunter?
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Villain market still sucks.
TF changes still make villain market suck.
Fix plz.
A+ for this change
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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TFs and SFs are intended for groups of players who know each other, not PuGs. If you can do one with a PuG, that is allowed and encouraged, but not supported.
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Since when? I love when people make up rules for everyone. Do you have a reference for this?
Here is one straight from the game manual "A task force is a team up of powerful Heroes that comes together to undertake a long series of dangerous assignments, which usually culminates in a battle with one of the city's Arch Villains. Task force missions require a great deal of commitment, and are very risky, but the reward for success is proportionate to the risk."
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I've got another reference that says this is expected for pickup teams....
"Looking for TaskForce" on the team search settings.