Just 1 more reason not to take Phase Shift!
By
Amarsir,
Posted on: 2007-05-02 22:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.
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He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.
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Wow, so going by that argument my tank that's been around since I1 has been adapting to his environment by apparently de-volving over the last 3 years. He can't resist or do damage like he once could, can't attack as quickly as he once could, can't seem to get up to speed for a few seconds after attacking like he once could, is now susceptible to a variety of status effects that were of little consequence to him previously... the list goes on an on.
So, just for the record, player characters adapt by devolving over time, NPC foes adapt by evolving over time. Yup, great way to develop a game.
But as the OP said, I think stuff like this, combined with the "evolved" hostage stealth suppression, finally puts the final nail in the concealment pool's coffin.
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(Blink)
So you only took phase shift to deal with Hamidon? If so, then yes, it makes phase shift useless to you because of one specific raid level monster.
I still get a great kick out of using it in the rest of the game, personally.
Co-Founder: Hand of Justice, Champion Server
Currently published arcs:
1) Azuria's Difficulties (arc: 55639) - Ver 1.2
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Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.
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He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.
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Wow, so going by that argument my tank that's been around since I1 has been adapting to his environment by apparently de-volving over the last 3 years. He can't resist or do damage like he once could, can't attack as quickly as he once could, can't seem to get up to speed for a few seconds after attacking like he once could, is now susceptible to a variety of status effects that were of little consequence to him previously... the list goes on an on.
So, just for the record, player characters adapt by devolving over time, NPC foes adapt by evolving over time. Yup, great way to develop a game.
But as the OP said, I think stuff like this, combined with the "evolved" hostage stealth suppression, finally puts the final nail in the concealment pool's coffin.
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Getting old really sucks, don't it?
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A wizard did it.
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Thanks for that, Castle. Thanks.
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I'm not a fan of that either.
People have found ways to avoid them, but they're not easy.
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I think that's the point.
Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball
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I hate when standard mobs "cheat" the rules with player powers, but I'm perfectly fine with a raid mob like Hamidon doing it. I really don't see your point, other than you seem to be taking advantage of your account reactivation to drop in and be negative wherever you can.
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My point was that Hamidon side-steps (ie. "cheats") on a great many "rules" of the game in order to present a challenge. Rather than debuffing resistances, Hamidon does untyped and/or toxic damage. Hamidon "ignores" defenses. Hamidon can smack you around through Phase Shift ... and so on. Rather than using the existing mechanics which everyone else is beholden to, Hamidon is "allowed" to simply bypass them.
If a player were able to do the same thing, we'd call that "cheating" ... plain and simple.
Reminds me of a situation in Civilization 2, where rather than making the AI controlled players "pay for" World Wonders (in an honest fashion) by investing resources to build them, the AI just randomly "awarded" the Wonders at zero cost to one of the AI players every-so-often if they weren't already built. Basically ... the game "cheated" ... rather than playing by the same rules that you have to.
Hamidon does much the same thing in order to provide a challenge. He doesn't play by the same "rules" that the players do, or even any other AVs do. Loopholes and exceptions have had to be made for Hamidon, in such profusion, that Hamidon barely even plays by the same rules that anyone else does.
You say you're fine with that.
I'm wondering if it was possible to achieve the same results without needing to "cheat" the rules of the game the way Hamidon currently does ... and if so (granted not necessarily a possibility), why wasn't Hamidon implemented THAT way instead.
And for what it's worth ... I agree with the OP. Hamidon is yet another example of why the Concealment Pool just isn't what it used to be ... 
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Well I see the idea but I think it's just F-in' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.
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He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.
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No offense intended, Mr. Castle Sir, but...
... are you suggesting that Hami evolved by natural selection? Or adapted within a single generation, mutating himself to be a more effective challenge in a hero/predator infested world? That's a little implausible, but I guess not much more so than the idea of a giant one-celled organism that shoots blasts of electrolytes at people.
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No more implausible than evolution in general. Just think of Hami as the Hopeful Monster who did.
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
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Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.
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He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.
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Wow, so going by that argument my tank that's been around since I1 has been adapting to his environment by apparently de-volving over the last 3 years. He can't resist or do damage like he once could, can't attack as quickly as he once could, can't seem to get up to speed for a few seconds after attacking like he once could, is now susceptible to a variety of status effects that were of little consequence to him previously... the list goes on an on.
So, just for the record, player characters adapt by devolving over time, NPC foes adapt by evolving over time. Yup, great way to develop a game.
But as the OP said, I think stuff like this, combined with the "evolved" hostage stealth suppression, finally puts the final nail in the concealment pool's coffin.
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(Blink)
So you only took phase shift to deal with Hamidon? If so, then yes, it makes phase shift useless to you because of one specific raid level monster.
I still get a great kick out of using it in the rest of the game, personally.
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Actually I've *never* had a toon with phase shift. I came close a very long time ago as I thought it might be fun to have, but after all the stealth powers were nerfed into uselessness I couldn't see having to take 2 useless powers to get it. Then of course PS itself was nerfed into virtual uselessness with the 30 second timer, so there was zero appeal to me after that.
So when do my characters get to "adapt" to be able to hit phase shifted foes like Carnie Illusionists (who, mind you, seem to have adapted long ago to be able to attack us while phased, something else we can't do)? Or adapt to hit Nemesis clones that are in PFF (cause we all know foes adapted long ago to be able to hit us thru our PFF).
Whole lotta foe adapting going on, very very little player adapting going on. Cause I'd give my right nut if my defenders could "adapt" and learn how to turn their hands around and use their teammate-only buffs on themselves. Seems simple enough, yet still manages to escape our grasps even after 4 years of training, leveling, evolving, and "adapting". But in the blink of an eye Hami learns how to fire multi-phasic attacks. Geez, he must really be one super smart glob of goo. Cause golly, my trollers still can't figure out how to protect themselves from being mezzed after years and years of doing it to other people. I guess we heroes (and villains) are just really really REALLY slow learners.
And there we are, back again, as to why this game, at best, will never be *great*, simply mediocre...
Anyone want to place bets on when the first round of IO nerfs will hit? I give it 2 weeks.
Oh, and just as an aside, what exactly do you accomplish with PS that you consider "a great kick"? With an obnoxiously long animation time, delayed activation time, and 30 second timer, it's barely useful as an "oh crap" power (by the time you realize you're in trouble you're often dead before you can get it up and running), and exactly how much fun can you have in 30 seconds?
Unless of course...
/em completely_unwarranted_and_highly_offensive_person al_attack on
...you're just one of those guys who frequently takes less than 30 seconds to get his rocks off?
/em completely_unwarranted_and_highly_offensive_person al_attack off
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No kidding.
Let me know when someone on the Dev team "adapts" the ability to Phase Shift since you all are living organisms too.
Lazy answer.
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yeah no kidding. At this point I'd have more respect for them if they just said "because we felt like doing it this way."
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Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.
[/ QUOTE ]
He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, so going by that argument my tank that's been around since I1 has been adapting to his environment by apparently de-volving over the last 3 years. He can't resist or do damage like he once could, can't attack as quickly as he once could, can't seem to get up to speed for a few seconds after attacking like he once could, is now susceptible to a variety of status effects that were of little consequence to him previously... the list goes on an on.
So, just for the record, player characters adapt by devolving over time, NPC foes adapt by evolving over time. Yup, great way to develop a game.
But as the OP said, I think stuff like this, combined with the "evolved" hostage stealth suppression, finally puts the final nail in the concealment pool's coffin.
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Getting old really sucks, don't it?
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It does indeed. But continued dev BS like this sucks worse.
So...I questioned your statement that a power is useless because a) ONE monster in the ENTIRE GAME can shoot through it and b) it has a 30 second timer, and you responded with that much bile? Wow.
Co-Founder: Hand of Justice, Champion Server
Currently published arcs:
1) Azuria's Difficulties (arc: 55639) - Ver 1.2
/sarcasm about positron and cryptics issue designs "Actually its too time consuming, uses all there resources, and would push back there 3 a year issue releases (i guess in THERE world, a year is 18 months long, as the past 4 issues have NOT followed this standard) if we were to develop a better reason as too why organism thats devouring the earth can hit someone whos halfway into another dimension...."
What? Devs don't get to RP? Common, give Castle a little creative leeway in at least come up with something witty. I am pretty certain the conversation would still berate the devs if he came out and said: 'cause we wanted to make him more challenging'.
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
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(i guess in THERE world, a year is 18 months long, as the past 4 issues have NOT followed this standard)
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Issue 1: 6/30/2004
Issue 2: 9/16/2004
Issue 3: 1/4/2005
Issue 4: 5/4/2005
Issue 5: 8/31/2005
Issue 6: 10/31/2005
Issue 7: 5/6/2006
Issue 8: 11/28/2006
Issue 9: 5/2/2007
The only block of three that didn't hit "three per year" was 6-8, which was 13, not 18, months. And overall, they're still right on "three per year", given that we've just had the three-year anniversary and nine issues within that time.
Kam
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I hate when standard mobs "cheat" the rules with player powers, but I'm perfectly fine with a raid mob like Hamidon doing it. I really don't see your point, other than you seem to be taking advantage of your account reactivation to drop in and be negative wherever you can.
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My point was that Hamidon side-steps (ie. "cheats") on a great many "rules" of the game in order to present a challenge. Rather than debuffing resistances, Hamidon does untyped and/or toxic damage. Hamidon "ignores" defenses. Hamidon can smack you around through Phase Shift ... and so on. Rather than using the existing mechanics which everyone else is beholden to, Hamidon is "allowed" to simply bypass them.
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Hamidon is going to evolve and learn like the Borg. Hamidon by design is the hardest task in the game. Designed to take 50 L50's 2-2.5 hours to complete roughly the same time as the RSF/STF. When I and one /kin corrupter can take down most AV's 50 AT's will need a serious challange. So phase shift does not protect you. Big deal, the Devs have given you EoE's to pop for 60 seconds of protection with no recharge time.
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Reminds me of a situation in Civilization 2, where rather than making the AI controlled players "pay for" World Wonders (in an honest fashion) by investing resources to build them, the AI just randomly "awarded" the Wonders at zero cost to one of the AI players every-so-often if they weren't already built. Basically ... the game "cheated" ... rather than playing by the same rules that you have to.
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Learn to use a hex editor. Muhahahaha
Poison Pill
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Our characters are living organisms. How come we can't "adapt" and do similar things as hami?
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Respecs + New Slotting.
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No kidding.
Let me know when someone on the Dev team "adapts" the ability to Phase Shift since you all are living organisms too.
Lazy answer.
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yeah no kidding. At this point I'd have more respect for them if they just said "because we felt like doing it this way."
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Hamidon was once a zealous scientist named Hamidon Pasilima. Using hideous dark magic and his own genetic genius , he transformed himself into the god-like monster that would spawn the Devouring Earth and threaten the entire world.
Doesn't it stand to reason that Hamidon can adapt quicker then any other thing in the game, becuase Hamidon Pasilima desinged him self like that.
@Real Boss
Real Boss-50
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So...I questioned your statement that a power is useless because a) ONE monster in the ENTIRE GAME can shoot through it and b) it has a 30 second timer, and you responded with that much bile? Wow.
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Because now that Hami has "adapted" this ability, the door is wide open for other foes to magically "adapt" this ability. What's to stop the devs from giving giant monsters, Lusca, the Ghost of Scrapyard, any/all of the signature heroes and villains, or any number of zone monsters and AVs the ability to ignore phase shift? In a single word: nothing. And the rationale? "Well, they adapted like all living organisms do."
So forgive me if my bile and vitriol level is currently up to my eyeballs. And where oh where was this juicy little gem listed in the patch notes? Or was the intent to "accidently" leave it out ("the unpaid interns that arrive at our offices on the short bus every morning who are responsible for compiling the patch notes are only human, mistakes are bound to occur... and occur... and occur...") so those who use PS, thinking they're protected for at least 30 seconds, get a nice debt surprise (reminder, not all people who fight Hami are level 50, and being outside you get full debt when you die).
And I did ask you, as someone who admittedly has, uses, and enjoys PS, what exactly you find it useful for, and I got no answer. Cause honesly, all sarcasm and "<bzzzt>bitter, party of one<bzzzt>" aside, I am actually curious. Cause as far as I can tell it's pretty much been resigned to "oh crap" status, which made it perfect for Hami raids in the past. So removing that ability just turned the Phase Shift Utility Handbook from a small pamphlet into a single page tri-fold (and fully expect it to someday be no more than a post it note with the word "NONE" in large sans-serif type).
And as another aside, has anyone tested this with other PS-like powers, such as Quantum Flight?
And here's an interesting (tho completely rhetorical) question: if you activate Quantum Flight and PS at the same time, do you return to normal space or do you become tri-phasic? I'm guessing if you can actually do it that Hami damage would be tripled cause you'd take damage in all 3 planes of existence simultaneously. Not that it matters anyway, cause one hit is usually sufficient to kill most toons outright; 3 is just, well, overkill.
Wait... am I imagining things or did I just see someone with a large object labeled "Ye Ole Ban Stick" heading my way?
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Our characters are living organisms. How come we can't "adapt" and do similar things as hami?
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Respecs + New Slotting.
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You're enjoying this, aren't you Castle?
I would like to add that our character did just adapt, its called inventions.
Brutes adapted in I7 with Electric melee and electric Armor
Defenders and controllers adapted earlier with Trick Arrow and Sonic Resonance.
Where would the fun in this game be if it wasn't a challenge?
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
Hamidon and the mitos do damage through Phase Shift to prevent Phantom Army and Phase Shift type powers becoming "required" for a raid.
Fictionally, Hamidon evolves. When he's continually defeated using a particular strategy or power he's naturally going to evolve a counter to it. This ability to attack phase-shifted targets is part of that evolution. Why not simply change the AI so it ignores Phantom Army? Because we don't want it to ignore Phantom Army. Using Phantom Army as a diversion is a perfectly sound tactic. We just didn't want PA to be any better than other pets/minions for that purpose.
We've gotten many PMs with similiar laments about defense, resistance, stealth, etc. All of which are reasonable complaints. However, it's simply not what this particular encounter is. As others have pointed out, in order to make a single entity that can be attacked by 50 players at the same time we have to step outside of the bounds of 'normal' rules in order to make it challenging.
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Well I see the idea but I think it's just F-in' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.
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Personally, I've always felt that phased things should be able to hit phased things. Then they could add some phased out mitos to hami, ones who can only hit phased targets 
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QF making sure this doesn't get lost.
I like this idea much better, personally.
Kam
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So why can Mr. Superspeeder over there who phases through objects by accelerating his molecules, etc, hit my guy who becomes a living shadow, or enters the ethereal plane?
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Respecs and slotting do not in any way allow us to adapt in a way that completely invalidates a Power or Pool of Powers. Inventions aren't going to let us do that either. Powers aren't built with the idea that an Ice Toller should be fairly safe from Ice and Cold attacks while taking additional damage from Fire / Heat. Respecs don't allow us to alter our Primary or Secondary lists other that to pick a power at a different time or ignore one in favor of another.
In the Comic books all of the Big Bad Guys have a weakness. We've seen where swarms of Heroes have hit them with everything they have only to be left laying scattered across the fields in need of serious medical care. They are beaten because they have a weakness that some lucky and/or smart Hero discovers and figures out a way to exploit.
Wanna make Hami a challenge? Give him a pool of weakness and have him spawn with a random weakness each time that will require the Heroes to find it and exploit it to win. There won't be a "perfect team" because you won't know what you really need to take him down going in. It will still be one hell of a fight but I think it will feel more like a Super Hero / Comic Book battle and less like the Battle of Thermopylea. Players will feel like they've beaten the baddest thing going and it will never be the same twice .
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No kidding.
Let me know when someone on the Dev team "adapts" the ability to Phase Shift since you all are living organisms too.
Lazy answer.
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Because Ivory Tower answers are better 
This whole thread is making me lmao.
Why would you even do Hami now?
The time isn't worth the reward anymore. Not when you can do the STF with only 8 people and you can do it twice to get your HO and Rare, and do it in a whole lot less time. Some may say its for the recipies but just doing missions will get you those.
The time to organize and get a raid going alone and youll be done or half way through the STF, much less tring to get 50 ppl togather to kill all the monsters and then fight hami. O man ya not even worth it.
And with the new IO's and sets why even worry about HO's they are barly par anymore. You can make IO's that are just as good or better than HO's and the bonuses from the sets in your powers far out dose HO's.
Hami is just like the Octipus in IP, Kraken in PP, and the big stone guy in Creys Folly to name a few. GMs running around and not worth the time or effort to kill. Hell getting the badges is the only reason to even do them anymore.
I must agree with one of the other posters. The devs have nerfed the player toons and buffed the NPC's all the while telling us well its easier to take to much and then buff up than the other way around. And you know ill buy that but.... were are the buffs and fixes to the sets that way under preform. O like claws for scrappers, really I undestand that they just "fixed" claws but really wow its such a under preformer to all the other sets that ill never build another one. And to those that built there claws scrappers before the "fix" WOW my hat is off to you. Or oo lets get into Dark Blast only one power is really worth getting in that set and thats the tenticels. I mean talking about a set that underpreforms.
The leadership at Cryptic is so worried about getting to work on the new issues that they are not even fixing the problems that are already there and have been sence the game started. Im sry but im getting tired of the "well theres so much on our plate" answer it makes me sick. The only one that makes me more mad is when you report a bug and get "Well were sorry you are having problems and we are sry to see you go. We hope that you will come back and join us at another time." At no time do you threaten to leave or anything. I mean what the hell kind of answer is that to a bug report. I have gotten 5 of those emails and now one of my SG mates just got the same letter. I mean really what kind of Co. says please help us and report your bugs and when you do tell you to quit????
As for the stealth pool well that has been broken for a while in PvE and according to the tell I got from Castle they arnt even talking about much less taking action to fix it.
Not tring to be negative, rant, troll, or flame the devs or anything like that, im saying that maybe they need to reexamine a few things. I will say in closing that I9 has added a lot of good stuff to CoX and will make the game more enjoyable but in the same breath Ill say get ready for the next round of nerfs because after looking at the level of power you will be able to run a toon at with the new sets theres lots coming.
Broomhilda BS/Regen/BM Scrapper, Fiddle Faddle Shield/ElecM/BM Tank,
And many others..
Dev's With all the Great new content, Please!! dont forget to fix the bugs with the old content. There is a storm a brewing because they are not getting fixed. If its a problem that no one is reporting them? Well Maybe you need to look at your tech support then..
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I hate when standard mobs "cheat" the rules with player powers, but I'm perfectly fine with a raid mob like Hamidon doing it. I really don't see your point, other than you seem to be taking advantage of your account reactivation to drop in and be negative wherever you can.
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My point was that Hamidon side-steps (ie. "cheats") on a great many "rules" of the game in order to present a challenge. Rather than debuffing resistances, Hamidon does untyped and/or toxic damage. Hamidon "ignores" defenses. Hamidon can smack you around through Phase Shift ... and so on. Rather than using the existing mechanics which everyone else is beholden to, Hamidon is "allowed" to simply bypass them.
If a player were able to do the same thing, we'd call that "cheating" ... plain and simple.
Reminds me of a situation in Civilization 2, where rather than making the AI controlled players "pay for" World Wonders (in an honest fashion) by investing resources to build them, the AI just randomly "awarded" the Wonders at zero cost to one of the AI players every-so-often if they weren't already built. Basically ... the game "cheated" ... rather than playing by the same rules that you have to.
Hamidon does much the same thing in order to provide a challenge. He doesn't play by the same "rules" that the players do, or even any other AVs do. Loopholes and exceptions have had to be made for Hamidon, in such profusion, that Hamidon barely even plays by the same rules that anyone else does.
You say you're fine with that.
I'm wondering if it was possible to achieve the same results without needing to "cheat" the rules of the game the way Hamidon currently does ... and if so (granted not necessarily a possibility), why wasn't Hamidon implemented THAT way instead.
And for what it's worth ... I agree with the OP. Hamidon is yet another example of why the Concealment Pool just isn't what it used to be ...
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The problem is: the game has relied upon this kind of "cheating" since day 1, and IMO is one of the main reasons why it's not a more popular and fun game to play than it is.
Hamidon aside, there are many, many foes in the game that are still using either pre-release and/or un-nerfed versions of player powers. Foes have always been able to side-step the rules that players are forced to abide by.
When was the last time you saw a flying foe such as a freak or longbow get slowed to a crawl after attacking you? And when was the last time you were able to move at a greatly enhanced running speed while disoriented?
Why can foes instantly lock on to you and queue up multiple attacks before your alpha attack even finishes its animation/activation cycle?
Why can one foe smoke grenade completely floor the entire team's perception even after they attack, yet player versions lose what pathetically little effect they have as soon as an attack is launched?
Why do foes keep getting upgraded status-type effects that players, by and large, have no countenance for? Sorry _Castle_, but I can respec and reslot until doomsday and still never be able to hit a phase-shifted Carnie, gain a meaningful resistance to psionic attacks on my INV/SS tank, be able to run out of 10 applications of Artemis caltrops, be able to fully resist a Sapper's end drain attack, or protect myself from multiple Longbow -resistance sonic grenades that apparently are many times stronger than the un-enhanceable player versions.
Why can foes still attack even though they have no endurance, but I can't even fart when I've run dry?
Why does a simple no-name minion's cheap Wal-Mart sledgehammer do as much or more damage than my 3-SO slotted "high damage" attack?
The list is virtually endless. For a game that's supposed to be a Super Hero RPG, they sure go far outta their way to make us feel most decidedly un-super. And again, no amount of respeccing and reslotting is ever going to change that.
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Well I see the idea but I think it's just too' lazy of the Devs not explain why he can now hit you though PS.
I think a better fix would've been to just make him ignor anything that's PSed. PAs included. That would solve the tanking prob.
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He's a living organism; he adapted to his environment.
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No offense intended, Castle, but while I agree with the idea that Hami should be able to ignore phasing, I think that it's long overdue to fix phase powers so that they're useful in the first place.