Just 1 more reason not to take Phase Shift!
By
Amarsir,
Posted on: 2007-05-02 22:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Willy...it sounds to me like you didn't slot your aoe hold well at all, not to mention that it can hit up to 16, not 10. You think it's utterly useless? I know a lot of controllers who think otherwise.
Phase Shift powers are useless? My warshade certainly doesnt agree, and since when he uses his he hardly ever uses it for more than 10 seconds, the duration of the Power Pool version should be just fine for accomplishing the exact same goals.
I swear, this thread is filled with people whining because they don't know how to use their own powers effectively.
Also, UG and others, I theorize that the best way to avoid the bloom wipes is to have just a few people take Hami over the threshhold. Maybe 5 people take one for the team, everyone else goes and hides behind a rock. That doesn't sound too difficult to me...
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Chew on that in your "limitless" universe
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Let me take this moment to mention that I believe it is a mistake to allow people with temporary reprieves on their accounts to post on the forums. Normally I'm not one to be big on silencing dissenting viewpoints, as I'm a rather frequent dissenter myself; I hardly agree with everything the devs do, and am vocal about it.
However, I've got a big issue with the influx of people who quit the game out of whatever disgust they have with it or the devs popping in and attempting to enlighten the poor mislead playerbase of how crappy this game is.
Here's a hint. We're still here. We still like the game after the changes (or, for some, discovered it after they hit and don't know how it was before). As much? Sometimes yes and more, sometimes no.
If you left because you dislike the game that's fine; sorry to hear that. Do please tell the devs about what would get you to come back. If you don't like it anymore, fine. Say you don't, and even why. Don't try to convince people who still do that they shouldn't, or delcare them wrong for doing so. Or do; I'll happily add you to my ignore bin.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Once upon a time this game was an all consuming great thing (much like WoW). Now its just a passable distraction, a mild entertainment. No wonder it never realized its commercial marketing potential when the dev mindset is always to destroy the fun as opposed to enhancing it.
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I'm sure WoW is a great game, but I can't imagine that mechanics don't regular get changed there. I doubt it's a perfect utopia. Show me a perfect MMO with 100% player satisfaction, and I'll show you a bridge I have for sale in Brooklyn 
I know plenty of people who left CoH for WoW, and I know others who left WoW for CoH. To each his own, but don't compare apples to pomegranates.
As for the fun, it's relative. I'm still having fun with the game, because I chose to work past the changes, instead of jumping ship at the first cry of doom.
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These are the people running this show. So unless you can give up and be beaten and just accept the constant hot irons that will inevitably get shoved into your nether regions you should close your account. I came back for personal reasons of my own and because I am one of those people who gave up and accepted that they will never let our fun exceed a certain level.
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Wow... just wow (and not the game, except maybe for you 
). Mild exaggerations about pubic mutilation aside, IMHO, changes always happen in MMOs. Wait, let me say that again:
Changes always happen in MMOs.
Anyone who expects content to never change from launch is living in a fantasy. Changes happen because players find ways to interact with the environment tha were never intended. Players find exploits in maps, find ways to abuse systems, find ways to grief fellow players, etc., etc. All the "best" aspects of anonymitous "jerk hacking".
Devs are people, without the gift of divination; they don't see everything that can and will happen when they create games and systems. The one thing about MMOs is that change is constant. Things get fixed, to the satisfaction or dismay of players (depending on who's doing what); get used to change.
I5 was in 2005, almost 18 months ago. It's more than so last year. If you're still bent about I5, get over it. Unlearn what you learned, and stop lamenting a lost Carthage. Re-learn2play.
Here's the real question: who's actually tried the new encounter? Who's complaining just to pretend this is actually an issue?
Lately, I noticed a rash of people who return to the game (not all of them, mind you) who waste no time with non-constructive criticism. They complain about things that happened issues ago with little or no feedback on how to make it better.
Nothing against CuppaJo (we miss ya ), but to finalize, I'll quote one of the current community reps, Ex Libris:
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ya'll want to see some change around here well then you better be willing to put in some muscle not just noise.
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No more strawman arguments about I5 and ED, and using the word nerf 7 times in a post. Try the new Hami before you knock it. If you don't like it after you try it, then by all means, give some constructive criticism. Otherwise, read my sig, and move on.
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Again, you're missing the point, the bigger picture.
Of course all MMOs change and evolve. It's the nature of the beast. And of course not all changes are favorable to the players or are lauded.
And my comparison of CoX to WoW was solely on a level of anticipated gameplay based upon the particular genre of each. No more, no less. They are vastly different games that won't necessarily appeal to everyone.
Nonetheless, WoW captures the feel of its genre dead on. CoX does not. That's the simplest way to say it. And this isn't something that easily affected by patches, changes, power alterations, etc. It's a fundamental structure of the game that is not easily broken. In CoX's case it was, for all intents and purposes, broken from the beginning. Subsequent changes and patches that were supposed to address these problems only managed to make things worse. Which then required more changes. Which again made things worse.
And I'm sorry to disagree with you, but like any evolving entity, if you don't look to the mistakes of the past you're only bound to repeat them. And brother, there's been a whole lotta repeatin' going on.
And as for devs and their choices, let's revisit the current hostage/stealth issue. The problem: certain IO's that grant stealth can be slotted into auto powers, thereby granting the player perma-stealth. This makes soloing hostage missions impossible, as hostages can't see thru stealth, and you have no way of turning off this kind of auto stealth. The devs were then presented with the following player contributed ideas (in no particular order):
1.) Do not allow said IOs to be slotted into auto powers.
2.) Make no change to the system, but alert players of the issue and discourage them from soloing hostage missions.
3.) Temporarily remove said IOs from the game until a better solution is found.
4.) Create a temp power that suppresses an individual player's stealth, allowing the player to complete the hostage mission.
All of these solutions are, IMO, clean and elegant as they address the particular issue without any type of collateral damage. Unfortunately, the devs, in their oh-so-finite wisdom chose option:
5.) Create an AOE stealth debuff field triggered upon obtaining the hostage, that permanently suppresses all stealth and invisibility on the entire team for the duration of the mission, even after the hostage is delivered. This applies for both the non-interactive hostages that can't see thru stealth, as well as for the NPC hostages that aren't affected by stealth and will fight alongside you.
Of course it's quite easy to see why #5 is by far and away the best and most logical choice, and will surely attract Stalkers in droves to any and all hostage missions.
So yes, Ex Libris, we flexed our muscles, came up with 4 logical, clean, and effective solutions, all of which were summarily ignored (without any type of explanation) for a grossly counter-intuitive, overcomplicated, and highly destructive alternative.
So forgive me if I'm just a wee bit wary when I start to hear things like "Hami can now attack thru phase shift" and "Hami can now destroy pets that are supposed to be indestructible." Cause I just have no faith left. What little I once had was all used up by I5.
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When the hell was phase "required" for a raid (aside from way way back and that was stopped in the same time period) this just seems mean and serves no purpose, kinda like stopping all those uber mega overpowered /dev blasters from teleporting their crazy overpowered autoturret about.......
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It never was.
PA, however, is central to the pre-I9 raid strategy. And that's what they wanted to change. PA have the "Untouchable" power, just like Hibernate and PS. And that's what Hami now bypasses.
It was PA they wanted to indirectly nerf in Hami's presence. PS and Hibernate were collateral damage.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The players are saddled with more limits with almost every issue. Chew on that in your "limitless" universe
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I wish I had an axe to grind that had nothing to do with the OP...
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Go watch some old Batman shows , sure you'll see plenty of KABAMs! and POWs!, but you also see Batman and Robin out thinking traps , almost inescapable situations, and actually thinking of solutions to the criminals master plans.
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Three words: Bat Shark Repellent.
Many comic book characters don't think their way out of situations, they are given convenient escapes by the writers.
CoH/V missions have no writers in terms of what goes on during a mission who can edit in a convenient escape for players. Either it is there from the start (ie click the glowie, end the mission) or it isn't.
If Cryptic doesn't improve on the current CoH/V mission format in MUO and their other releases, I'll agree that they've become stagnant. However, for CoH/V, just turned three, they are still pretty close to the comic book experience that I am familiar with.
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The game lacks any kind of puzzle solving element, even on an elementary level. Super Heroes are always thinking thier way out of problems.
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Superheroes are part of books. They are a story, read by a reader, who is paced by the author.
I disagree completely that any sort of puzzle solving is consistently present in superhero stories. It depends on the nature of the hero and the plot devices needed by the authors. Heroes do things ranging from beating the tar out of people, convincing them to turn a new leaf, or whatever in between. Actual "puzzling" over the solution is very rare for quite a few iconic characters, and many cases where they would do so would be incredibly boring to actually act out in a game. I don't want to play Mister Fantastic or the Beast designing some new gadget or researching a mysterious disease.
Moreover, I don't want to solve puzzes really at all. I enjoy endlessly beating the crap out of mobs. In that sense I'm Cryptics perfect customer, and I'm the kind of player that vindicates their model for this game. Combat engine first and foremost, and everything that goes into it improves or expands on that.
Responding to the thread more generally, improving the AI and whatnot is fine, to a point. But I still feel heroic in this game. I don't have a character one over 40 that can't take on 6-10 +2 foes, and most can take on that many +3s at decent risk, all often without having to resort to long-recharge powers or inspirations. I happen to think that's pretty good.
Do I miss the days of taking on 30-60 foes? Yeah. I also know it was broken. I knew it then, too; I knew someday it would go away, because it was unevenly distributed (even more than it is now) and made certain things that should have been more useful largely useless. Do I agree with all the mechanics of how they changed the game? Definitely not. Do I feel they ruined the game with those changes? Definitely not.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Once upon a time this game was an all consuming great thing (much like WoW). Now its just a passable distraction, a mild entertainment. No wonder it never realized its commercial marketing potential when the dev mindset is always to destroy the fun as opposed to enhancing it.
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I'm sure WoW is a great game, but I can't imagine that mechanics don't regular get changed there. I doubt it's a perfect utopia. Show me a perfect MMO with 100% player satisfaction, and I'll show you a bridge I have for sale in Brooklyn I know plenty of people who left CoH for WoW, and I know others who left WoW for CoH. To each his own, but don't compare apples to pomegranates.
As for the fun, it's relative. I'm still having fun with the game, because I chose to work past the changes, instead of jumping ship at the first cry of doom.
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These are the people running this show. So unless you can give up and be beaten and just accept the constant hot irons that will inevitably get shoved into your nether regions you should close your account. I came back for personal reasons of my own and because I am one of those people who gave up and accepted that they will never let our fun exceed a certain level.
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Wow... just wow (and not the game, except maybe for you ). Mild exaggerations about pubic mutilation aside, IMHO, changes always happen in MMOs. Wait, let me say that again:
Changes always happen in MMOs.
Anyone who expects content to never change from launch is living in a fantasy. Changes happen because players find ways to interact with the environment tha were never intended. Players find exploits in maps, find ways to abuse systems, find ways to grief fellow players, etc., etc. All the "best" aspects of anonymitous "jerk hacking".
Devs are people, without the gift of divination; they don't see everything that can and will happen when they create games and systems. The one thing about MMOs is that change is constant. Things get fixed, to the satisfaction or dismay of players (depending on who's doing what); get used to change.
I5 was in 2005, almost 18 months ago. It's more than so last year. If you're still bent about I5, get over it. Unlearn what you learned, and stop lamenting a lost Carthage. Re-learn2play.
Here's the real question: who's actually tried the new encounter? Who's complaining just to pretend this is actually an issue?
Lately, I noticed a rash of people who return to the game (not all of them, mind you) who waste no time with non-constructive criticism. They complain about things that happened issues ago with little or no feedback on how to make it better.
Nothing against CuppaJo (we miss ya ), but to finalize, I'll quote one of the current community reps, Ex Libris:
[ QUOTE ]
ya'll want to see some change around here well then you better be willing to put in some muscle not just noise.
[/ QUOTE ]
No more strawman arguments about I5 and ED, and using the word nerf 7 times in a post. Try the new Hami before you knock it. If you don't like it after you try it, then by all means, give some constructive criticism. Otherwise, read my sig, and move on.
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My post isnt about the new hami. It's about this game's development as a whole.
WoW has its share of changes I never denied this and its only an example.
Do I sound bitter though? You bet I am. Maybe cause I was here in coh beta.... I watched slowly but surely as the fun was sucked out of the game from issue 4 onwards. More powers rendered useless or situational.
Are nerfs a part of pretty much every MMO? Yes
Should they be? Only as an absolute last resort after all other methods of trying to balance things have been exhausted.
I know you cant answer every imbalance with a buff to players. But I think the few attempts to buff the foes were poorly excuted. AI improvements alone could raise the challenge level of this game (and most others I might add) dramatically. Foes who have "inspirations" of their own to pop at critical times would again add to the challenge level in a big way but options like these are either ignored or deemed too much work to implement.
I was one of those people who used to play hours upon hours of every day back then. I was hooked. I told everyone I could about the game and to get on board. And eventually over the course of many issues my experience was reduced in entertainment value to the point where I quit the game.
About 1 year later I found myself in a position of requiring a certain amount of distraction (the reasons are irrelevant) with as little effort or commitment as possible. CoH fits that bill nicely and so I decided to come back especially considering there were a few new things to play with and inventions have the potential to restore some of the "fun" I had back then.
But I didnt come back with any illusions. I know full well nerfs will continue and if I ever hit that point of too much fun again I'll know a nerf is not too long in the coming. You see you missed the entire point of my post. I am telling people to EXPECT nerfs. You should have been agreeing with my instead of trying to make it seem like I am shocked about them which I am clearly not.
Not for nothing though? Some tuning aside here or there WoW does one thing right. They keep their content constant. WoW's content does in fact STAY THE SAME with every new patch. They dont change existing encounter in the hopes of recycling old content, they make NEW content. After 3 years the closest thing to new endgame content for players in CoH is the STF. That level of consistency is a point in WoW's favor not detriment IMO. It allows players to get comfortable in their wolrd. To know they can rely on certain things to always remain consistent for the most part. Thats a good thing... Being able to learn something and practice it enough to the point where it becomes "easy" should be OK. Players should not have to worry that every time a patch comes out the fundamental laws of the game could change.
But ya know what? The same "change how the players powers work" attitude time after time just gets old ya know? Thats why I gave up ever hoping they'd ever test stuff enough to not let imbalances occur in the first place and if one did slip by they'd find some way or dealing with it that didnt involve screwing the player. And now they dont even hide their disdain for the players who arent butt kissing yes men. They openly make jests at those who take umbrage at the things they do to the game. Instead of praising players for creative tactics things get nerfed to counter those tactics to the point of rendering powers used in those tactics utterly useless. (and i am NOT referring to just how hami kills phantasms and phased people now.)
While almost all MMOs nerf things over the course of their existence very few change the fundamentals of how the game is played as much as CoH has. SWG is the first thing that comes to mind when I think of drastic changes to an MMO... CoH is the second.
They win for now. They get to have my money until either my situation changes or I find something else that is "mildly entertaining" and doesnt require much effort or commitment. I have no loyalty to this game or company and as soon as something that suits my needs comes along I'll probably move on again. The thing is thats a very sad way for your customers to feel about your product. This game could have been just as big as WoW if things were handled differently. Unfortunately it is now only "mildly entertaining"
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Chew on that in your "limitless" universe
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Let me take this moment to mention that I believe it is a mistake to allow people with temporary reprieves on their accounts to post on the forums. Normally I'm not one to be big on silencing dissenting viewpoints, as I'm a rather frequent dissenter myself; I hardly agree with everything the devs do, and am vocal about it.
However, I've got a big issue with the influx of people who quit the game out of whatever disgust they have with it or the devs popping in and attempting to enlighten the poor mislead playerbase of how crappy this game is.
Here's a hint. We're still here. We still like the game after the changes (or, for some, discovered it after they hit and don't know how it was before). As much? Sometimes yes and more, sometimes no.
If you left because you dislike the game that's fine; sorry to hear that. Do please tell the devs about what would get you to come back. If you don't like it anymore, fine. Say you don't, and even why. Don't try to convince people who still do that they shouldn't, or delcare them wrong for doing so. Or do; I'll happily add you to my ignore bin.
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At no point did I ever try to tell people the game sucks. It doesnt suck. It's just not as great as it used to be for ME. And while my opinions are only one grain of sand on the beach they are mine and I am not trying to impose them on anyone outside of sharing them in this forum.
And for your information I am NOT on a free account reactivation. Ive been back for a couple months now paying my monthly fee because the situation I am in makes CoH perfect for my current needs. I am simply voicing my opinions as I see nothing has changed as far as the development teams mindset. If my opinions bother you I apologize.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Willy...it sounds to me like you didn't slot your aoe hold well at all, not to mention that it can hit up to 16, not 10. You think it's utterly useless? I know a lot of controllers who think otherwise.
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Hmmm... 6 slots... well, since the AOE hold has a .8 accuracy it needs at least 3 accuracy SOs if you actually intend to hit anything. That leaves 3 more slots. Now if I slot them with holds I can hold +2 minions for roughly 20 seconds (about 15 for +2 LTs), do no damage, and not be able to use the power again for 4 minutes. Higher level foes will be held for shorter periods of time, lower level slightly longer.
Now if I go for recharges instead of holds, I get about half the mez time (10 seconds for +2 minions, 7.5 for +2 LTs), but get the use the power about every 2 minutes.
I'm sorry, but either way doesn't really seem worth 5 slots that can be better used elsewhere, either for damage, recharge, or end redux. 10 seconds every 2 minutes or 20 seconds every 4 minutes? Dude, that's just lame.
And for the record, I play with a lot of trollers and I rarely ever see one use their AOE hold other than in "oh crap" situations, and I know a whole lot of trollers who skip it altogether and take something else more useful.
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Phase Shift powers are useless? My warshade certainly doesnt agree, and since when he uses his he hardly ever uses it for more than 10 seconds, the duration of the Power Pool version should be just fine for accomplishing the exact same goals.
I swear, this thread is filled with people whining because they don't know how to use their own powers effectively.
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Ahhh, but your warshade doesn't need to take 2 other pool powers to get his PS, and yes, that makes a huge difference. So yeah, if people could pick up PS to use as an "oh crap" power, or a "let me get from point A to B unscathed" power, then yeah, it might be worth taking now and again. But to have to give up 2 other powers just to get PS? That's just about as dumb as wasting 5 slots to get a 10 second hold every 2 minutes.
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I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.
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The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.
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I believe it is a mistake to allow people with temporary reprieves on their accounts to post on the forums.
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Agreed.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.
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The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.
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Sadly this is true in a way.
The true problem IMO however is that developers almost never choose to spend time and funds to create a truly good AI. They make a basic AI and build everything else around that. To compensate for crappy AI they let their NPCs break the rules
I once hosted and developed an online gameworld. At one point I actually went to the trouble of upgrading my AI on the npcs. Know what happened? I had to nerf the crap out of a number of my NPCs cause with the improved AI they were so much better at using thier abilities that the "cheats" originally built into them to make them challenging made them unbeatable or ridiculously overpowered for the challenge level they were supposed to have.
Thats a clear example of just how powerful a GOOD AI can be.
Can you imagine how much a good ai would rock the foundations of this game world with all the "cheats" the villains use currently?
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.
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The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.
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What minions do you have a problem with? Seriously- I know very few Lt's that give me a problem, and a few bosses, but nothing I can't out and out beat in the end. I know the standard it 3 white minions to one hero but really- I can take about 3 red minions at one time (dependant on type) a few red LT's and probably one for one on a red/purple boss. This game has a great "Super feel" to it- yeah, I know we used to be alot ALOT more powerful, and I am lucky I never had a character high enough to get hit hard by ED- but now jeepers running on Unyeilding (solo) with my blaster and there is nothin' she hasn't been able to beat.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.
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The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.
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Not true. Challenge can come in numbers, which I have said many times over the years is the first and foremost way the devs could turn this game around.
Right now, a solo toon gets on average 3-5 foes per spawn depending upon difficulty. And for some ATs like brutes, tanks and scrappers, they can easily plow thru them with little to no effort or downtime. But man, does that get boring really quickly.
On the flip side, weaker characters like defenders usually can make it thru, but the pace is slow and laborious and requires significant downtime to recover health and/or end. Again, this gets boring very quickly, and is just not fun.
In both cases you never get to feel really "super" cause you're either under-challenged or over-challenged.
Now let's say for [censored] and giggles we take all the common baddies in the game and reduce their health, damage, and XP by 80%. And then we increase the spawn sizes by a factor 5. So now, instead of facing spawns of 3-5, you're facing 15-25. Holy Full House Batman! Now you actually have something *worthy* to fight.
The tank/brute/scrapper plows thru them like a bulldozer, foes flying everywhere, constantly surrounding you, trying to overpower you, but they are but flies and you rip thru them like a hot knife thru butter. You're taking some damage here and there, but nothing you can't handle, and you're definitely working up a sweat cause you're just cycling thru powers non-stop. Mmmm quite satisfying.
The defender is momentarily daunted, but with their array of buffs and debuffs they too find it highly satisfying watching 2 dozen baddies bounce up and down on a tar patch, or flee from a chilling freezing rain, all the while being picked off one by one. Yes indeed, so very satisfying.
And can you just IMAGINE the sheer joy a team of 8 would be like this??? I get goose-pimply just thinking about it.
NOW you feel like a super hero.
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Hmmm... 6 slots... well, since the AOE hold has a .8 accuracy it needs at least 3 accuracy SOs if you actually intend to hit anything.
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theres your problem.
2/2/2
I use this on +3 guys, hit about 95% of the time, lock them down for about 17 seconds, recharge, a little over 3 mins.
Solo, the power sits useless in my tray, I have an AoE sleep that I use for that, but in teams, I use it very frequently.
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
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I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.
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The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.
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What minions do you have a problem with? Seriously- I know very few Lt's that give me a problem, and a few bosses, but nothing I can't out and out beat in the end. I know the standard it 3 white minions to one hero but really- I can take about 3 red minions at one time (dependant on type) a few red LT's and probably one for one on a red/purple boss. This game has a great "Super feel" to it- yeah, I know we used to be alot ALOT more powerful, and I am lucky I never had a character high enough to get hit hard by ED- but now jeepers running on Unyeilding (solo) with my blaster and there is nothin' she hasn't been able to beat.
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Yes, but how much time do you spend between spawns licking your wounds (unless of course you took aid self)? You might be able to kill them quickly, but at the same time they're gonna take a nice chunk outta you that you have no way of mitigating other than inspirations or time.
And what about a defender, who does only 75% of the damage you do? I have an empathy/sonic defender that even with 3 SO slotted attacks has trouble killing +1 mobs in a timely fashion. Seriously, it can take upwards of 8-10 attacks to kill a +1 LT. Buffs and debuffs can help, but you certainly don't feel heroic, you feel like you're struggling laboriously to slave thru it.
With all the recharge time nerfs it makes it difficult for most defenders and some trollers to solo, as their really good powers can't be used for every mob. It's a whole lotta frustration for very little XP.
And let's not forget the villain side. Stalkers have a hard time soloing as they don't have a lot of HPs and don't do a lot of damage other than the assassin's strike. A lot of dominators have trouble soloing too, especially at lower levels. MMs are kinda in the middle -- they do ok as long as the baddies aren't too high or plentiful.
And like I said, getting thru it is only half the battle. If it's so hard and slow it feels like work, then it's hardly worth it.
well willy, I repeat: I think you slotted your hold wrong.
2 acc, 3 hold, 1 recharge
add hasten
that hold is up every 2 minutes, lasts nearly 30 seconds, and will hit most things that don't have Defense powers. Eat a yellow first if you're really concerned. Therefore I call BS on your hyperbole. Furthermore, the controllers I play with use theirs almost every time it's up. Considering the abundance of /Kin and /Rad controllers, many of them have it available considerably more than every 2 minutes.
as for PS: the cost of the prereq powers is irrelevant in a discussion of how well the power itself works.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Hmmm... 6 slots... well, since the AOE hold has a .8 accuracy it needs at least 3 accuracy SOs if you actually intend to hit anything.
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theres your problem.
2/2/2
I use this on +3 guys, hit about 95% of the time, lock them down for about 17 seconds, recharge, a little over 3 mins.
Solo, the power sits useless in my tray, I have an AoE sleep that I use for that, but in teams, I use it very frequently.
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Sorry dude, there is no way you're hitting +3s 95% of the time with only 2 SO accuracies in your AOE hold. At best you'd hit around 75% of them. Math doesn't lie.
So, instead of catching 16 for 16 seconds every 4 minutes (for +3s) or 8 seconds every 2 minutes your slotting catches 12 for 13 seconds every 2.5 minutes.
Even if you were getting 17 seconds every 3 minutes, does that still seem worth 5 slots to you? Sure doesn't to me. Whole lotta slots for a whole lotta nothing.
But to each their own, I guess. If you like it and find it useful, more power to ya.
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well willy, I repeat: I think you slotted your hold wrong.
2 acc, 3 hold, 1 recharge
add hasten
that hold is up every 2 minutes, lasts nearly 30 seconds, and will hit most things that don't have Defense powers. Eat a yellow first if you're really concerned. Therefore I call BS on your hyperbole. Furthermore, the controllers I play with use theirs almost every time it's up. Considering the abundance of /Kin and /Rad controllers, many of them have it available considerably more than every 2 minutes.
as for PS: the cost of the prereq powers is irrelevant in a discussion of how well the power itself works.
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Sorry man, totally disagree. So now I'm supposed to take a power that does no damage, drop 5 slots in it and take another power, drop 3 slots in it, so I can get a 30 second (against even minions) no damage hold every 2 minutes. And have a tray full of yellows to boot.
Maybe it depends upon what kind of troller you are. Some sets are just better built than others. But personally, I just wouldn't take it unless I had absolutely nothing better to take. And even then I would just drop 1 or 2 acc in it and use it as an oh crap power. If you're a fire troller, you'd just much better use outta flashfire and hotfeet. Ice trollers live and die by their ice slick, and if you like to solo, the sleep works nicely. Gravity trollers are trickier, but with judicious use of wormhole and your aoe immobilize you can pretty much lock things down for much longer than you ever could with the hold. Illusion is the troller [censored] child, and the only set I can see trying to invest in the aoe hold simply as an additional means of establishing containment. But otherwise, why? You have pets up the ying yang, let em do their thing. And mind trollers, well, don't have a lot of experience there, but I'm thinking you get a lot more usage outta a nicely slotted telekinesis than you would on your aoe hold. And like ice, if you're into soloing, the aoe sleep works nicely too, and doesn't require a lot of slots to be effective.
But again, just my opinion. If you like the aoe hold, then take it.
And how can you say that prerequisites have no bearing on the usefulness of a power? That's crap, and you know it. Now if you have tons of unused power slots and throwing away 2 of them is of no consequence to you (or if there was no limitation on the number of powers we could take), then yeah, the point would be moot.
But the reality is that most builds are too damned tight to give up 2 powers simply for the sake of getting a 30 second intangibility power with limited usefulness. I mean, it's bad enough we do it for stamina, but you can't compare the usefulness of the two. If the prerequites themselves had some kind of legitimate value, then I could almost acknowledge it being worth it. But they don't. There is nothing worse than taking a power that 90% of the time you've got it on it's suppressed in one way or another. What's the frakkin point?
But... my illusion troller does have superior invisibility. It has its limited uses (mostly while traveling), doesn't require any slotting, and has no prerequisites. I deemed it worthy. But would I waste a power slot on stealth or invis other so I could get invisibility? Oh hell no. The usefulness isn't worth whatever power I'd have to give up.
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Now let's say for [censored] and giggles we take all the common baddies in the game and reduce their health, damage, and XP by 80%. And then we increase the spawn sizes by a factor 5. So now, instead of facing spawns of 3-5, you're facing 15-25. Holy Full House Batman! Now you actually have something *worthy* to fight.
The tank/brute/scrapper plows thru them like a bulldozer, foes flying everywhere, constantly surrounding you, trying to overpower you, but they are but flies and you rip thru them like a hot knife thru butter. You're taking some damage here and there, but nothing you can't handle, and you're definitely working up a sweat cause you're just cycling thru powers non-stop. Mmmm quite satisfying.
The defender is momentarily daunted, but with their array of buffs and debuffs they too find it highly satisfying watching 2 dozen baddies bounce up and down on a tar patch, or flee from a chilling freezing rain, all the while being picked off one by one. Yes indeed, so very satisfying.
And can you just IMAGINE the sheer joy a team of 8 would be like this??? I get goose-pimply just thinking about it.
NOW you feel like a super hero.
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I would truely love to have that at times as well. And I think the devs would like to have something like but, but I beleive that design considerations prevent it. A lo of players on the CoV side of the house take a bit hit in framerate if too many MMs are on the team. You hope for the bestest systems to run your game, but you have to design for more modest systems. I think that the 3 minions = 1 Heroes is partially in reponse to that design contraint.
Willy is right
for aoe controls to have any type of serious usefulness above heroic difficulty the best set up is:
3 acc/mez 3 recharge + hasten with 3-6 recharge (depending on how much that extra 20 sec or so those last 3 enhancers are worth to you)
thats how to make aoe holds somewhat useable reliably above heroic
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Now let's say for [censored] and giggles we take all the common baddies in the game and reduce their health, damage, and XP by 80%. And then we increase the spawn sizes by a factor 5. So now, instead of facing spawns of 3-5, you're facing 15-25. Holy Full House Batman! Now you actually have something *worthy* to fight.
The tank/brute/scrapper plows thru them like a bulldozer, foes flying everywhere, constantly surrounding you, trying to overpower you, but they are but flies and you rip thru them like a hot knife thru butter. You're taking some damage here and there, but nothing you can't handle, and you're definitely working up a sweat cause you're just cycling thru powers non-stop. Mmmm quite satisfying.
The defender is momentarily daunted, but with their array of buffs and debuffs they too find it highly satisfying watching 2 dozen baddies bounce up and down on a tar patch, or flee from a chilling freezing rain, all the while being picked off one by one. Yes indeed, so very satisfying.
And can you just IMAGINE the sheer joy a team of 8 would be like this??? I get goose-pimply just thinking about it.
NOW you feel like a super hero.
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I would truely love to have that at times as well. And I think the devs would like to have something like but, but I beleive that design considerations prevent it. A lo of players on the CoV side of the house take a bit hit in framerate if too many MMs are on the team. You hope for the bestest systems to run your game, but you have to design for more modest systems. I think that the 3 minions = 1 Heroes is partially in reponse to that design contraint.
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But still, it's been 3 years since launch. You can't tell me that in all this time they can't find some way to upgrade their servers. I mean, look at what was top of the line 3 years ago compared to now, it's like comparing a honda civic to a jaguar.
And if that's what it's gonna take to make this game great, I say drop whatever the hell you're doing AND GET IT DONE!! Cause all the new content/powersets/inventions/end game in the world don't mean squat if the game isn't outrageously fun and addictive to play. And right now, it just ain't.
Willy is entitled to his opinion as are you.
My friends and I will continue locking down spawns up to about +4, and happily wasting them before the hold wears off.
Anyone who wants to get as far as Phase Shift will make great use of it, anyone who didn't want Stealth or Invis in the first place won't worry about it.
I think you guys are missing the point of these powers. Yes, AoE holds can be thought of as an Oh [censored] power. But they're one of the best Oh [censored] powers in the whole game. It's not like controllers are having trouble controlling when their aoe hold is down. Not any that I play with anyway.
The attitude that a power is useless if it isn't available every spawn or two, or doesnt last a minute, or ever has accuracy problems is really shortsighted, imo, and strikes me as foolish in the extreme.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
The greatest failing of this game, since day 1, has been the lack of understanding on the devs part when it comes to what is a challenge for super heroes.
Super Heroes are rarely challenged by the shear overwhelming power of thier foes.
Super Heroes are challenged by the situations they are placed in, and this game lacks that aspect of the comic book experience.
Not only are situations not challenging , but the AI isnt exactly challenging either.
The game lacks any kind of puzzle solving element, even on an elementary level. Super Heroes are always thinking thier way out of problems.
Go watch some old Batman shows , sure you'll see plenty of KABAMs! and POWs!, but you also see Batman and Robin out thinking traps , almost inescapable situations, and actually thinking of solutions to the criminals master plans.
What do we get : clues and text, perhaps a glowie.
Theres like 1 mission in entire game that is time critical, and thats because you have multiple levels to search in like 10 minutes.
I could come up with sooo many new mission arcs and TFs that would be 10000 times better, it just amazes me that the devs cant seem to think up actually interesting game play scenarios.
The new faultline stuff is better than the launch content, but it doesn't pale in comparison to what the game could be.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.