Just 1 more reason not to take Phase Shift!
By
Amarsir,
Posted on: 2007-05-02 22:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Can we move this thread to the Tank forums? It feels like a Tank thread.
I haven't been this sickened by a thread since ED on the Tank forums, maybe that's why... and this isn't even close to ED.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
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I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.
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The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.
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What minions do you have a problem with? Seriously- I know very few Lt's that give me a problem, and a few bosses, but nothing I can't out and out beat in the end. I know the standard it 3 white minions to one hero but really- I can take about 3 red minions at one time (dependant on type) a few red LT's and probably one for one on a red/purple boss. This game has a great "Super feel" to it- yeah, I know we used to be alot ALOT more powerful, and I am lucky I never had a character high enough to get hit hard by ED- but now jeepers running on Unyeilding (solo) with my blaster and there is nothin' she hasn't been able to beat.
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Yes, but how much time do you spend between spawns licking your wounds (unless of course you took aid self)? You might be able to kill them quickly, but at the same time they're gonna take a nice chunk outta you that you have no way of mitigating other than inspirations or time.
And what about a defender, who does only 75% of the damage you do? I have an empathy/sonic defender that even with 3 SO slotted attacks has trouble killing +1 mobs in a timely fashion. Seriously, it can take upwards of 8-10 attacks to kill a +1 LT. Buffs and debuffs can help, but you certainly don't feel heroic, you feel like you're struggling laboriously to slave thru it.
With all the recharge time nerfs it makes it difficult for most defenders and some trollers to solo, as their really good powers can't be used for every mob. It's a whole lotta frustration for very little XP.
And let's not forget the villain side. Stalkers have a hard time soloing as they don't have a lot of HPs and don't do a lot of damage other than the assassin's strike. A lot of dominators have trouble soloing too, especially at lower levels. MMs are kinda in the middle -- they do ok as long as the baddies aren't too high or plentiful.
And like I said, getting thru it is only half the battle. If it's so hard and slow it feels like work, then it's hardly worth it.
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Honestly, I don't spend that much time licking my wounds- I don't have a problem taking some damage, I don't know how a defender is gonna do against what I go against because I don't know how a defender plays (yet).
What powers have had their recharge time nerfed? Are you talking about "perma-hasten"? Never had so I never needed it so I don't miss it.
And as for Stalkers? Sorry, my lvl 37 has absolutely NO problem what so ever burning through missions- with or with out needing AS up at every mob.
Sorry this game is so tough for you, and so unliked- why do you play if it bothers you so much?
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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Willy is entitled to his opinion as are you.
My friends and I will continue locking down spawns up to about +4, and happily wasting them before the hold wears off.
Anyone who wants to get as far as Phase Shift will make great use of it, anyone who didn't want Stealth or Invis in the first place won't worry about it.
I think you guys are missing the point of these powers. Yes, AoE holds can be thought of as an Oh [censored] power. But they're one of the best Oh [censored] powers in the whole game. It's not like controllers are having trouble controlling when their aoe hold is down. Not any that I play with anyway.
The attitude that a power is useless if it isn't available every spawn or two, or doesnt last a minute, or ever has accuracy problems is really shortsighted, imo, and strikes me as foolish in the extreme.
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No my friend, I think it's you who is missing the point.
I have 3 trollers. One is grav/rad, one is fire/kin, and one is illusion/kin. And I have a good friend with an ice/empathy.
Setting aside 2 power slots for travel means I have to give up 3 powers in my primary and/or secondary to accommodate the fitness pool. Knowing that most of the powers in all these sets are good and useful, which powers do I give up? Dimension shift and group invis come to mind. I'm also not a big fan of repel or choking cloud. Ok, that's 2. What other kinetics power am I supposed to give up? Siphon power? Siphon Speed? Speed Boost? All of them are much more valuable to my team than my "at best 30 second every 2 minute" hold. What other rad power do I skip? The debuffs? Accelerated metabolism? Ok, maybe you could skip the rez -- but it would be an even steven as far as I'm concerned. But fallout with the rez is a really nice combo, especially if it's your tank or scrapper that falls. Reduces downtown to zero, which is invaluable.
Now on the fire troller there are a lot of skippable powers IMO. Smoke ain't worth it, and neither is bonfire. But with flashfire and fire cages being 10x better than cinders ever could, why bother with it? So with all the extra slots I took assault and tactics. Not only does it benefit me, it also helps the whole team, including the pets, 100% of the time. 3 slotting tactics for tohit is good enough for you to get by with only 1 accy in most powers (2 for flashfire and fire cages), so the extra slots are free, so to speak.
So the point you're missing is that although the holds might indeed be useful when they're up, there usually are a lot better power choices you can take that are either toggles and are on 100% of the time, or are buffs/debuffs that will ultimately have a greater positive impact on the team compared to that short duration, long recharge hold.
And seriously, why would you prefer to take a power that "isn't available every spawn or two, doesn't last a minute, and has accuracy problems" when you can take another power that does damage, helps the team do more damage, has a short recharge time, lasts a minute or longer, and has no accuracy problem? It's such a no-brainer for me, I simply cannot understand why you both don't see it.
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I don't have a problem with Hami being more powerful than players. I have a problem with minions, LTs and bosses being more powerful than most players, with similar powers that are many times stronger than ours, with absolutely none of the limitations or restrictions that we players have. It's hard to feel super when the baddies are always more powerful than you are, can do things you can't do, can use your own powers better than you can, and can consistently smack you around with abilities you can't mitigate.
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The big problem w/ computer games in general, IHMO, is the limited ability of game AIs. To be a challenge to a human players foes need to be more power then the players. Or they need to cheat in some way.
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What minions do you have a problem with? Seriously- I know very few Lt's that give me a problem, and a few bosses, but nothing I can't out and out beat in the end. I know the standard it 3 white minions to one hero but really- I can take about 3 red minions at one time (dependant on type) a few red LT's and probably one for one on a red/purple boss. This game has a great "Super feel" to it- yeah, I know we used to be alot ALOT more powerful, and I am lucky I never had a character high enough to get hit hard by ED- but now jeepers running on Unyeilding (solo) with my blaster and there is nothin' she hasn't been able to beat.
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Yes, but how much time do you spend between spawns licking your wounds (unless of course you took aid self)? You might be able to kill them quickly, but at the same time they're gonna take a nice chunk outta you that you have no way of mitigating other than inspirations or time.
And what about a defender, who does only 75% of the damage you do? I have an empathy/sonic defender that even with 3 SO slotted attacks has trouble killing +1 mobs in a timely fashion. Seriously, it can take upwards of 8-10 attacks to kill a +1 LT. Buffs and debuffs can help, but you certainly don't feel heroic, you feel like you're struggling laboriously to slave thru it.
With all the recharge time nerfs it makes it difficult for most defenders and some trollers to solo, as their really good powers can't be used for every mob. It's a whole lotta frustration for very little XP.
And let's not forget the villain side. Stalkers have a hard time soloing as they don't have a lot of HPs and don't do a lot of damage other than the assassin's strike. A lot of dominators have trouble soloing too, especially at lower levels. MMs are kinda in the middle -- they do ok as long as the baddies aren't too high or plentiful.
And like I said, getting thru it is only half the battle. If it's so hard and slow it feels like work, then it's hardly worth it.
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Honestly, I don't spend that much time licking my wounds- I don't have a problem taking some damage, I don't know how a defender is gonna do against what I go against because I don't know how a defender plays (yet).
What powers have had their recharge time nerfed? Are you talking about "perma-hasten"? Never had so I never needed it so I don't miss it.
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I meant powers like the empathy auras, freezing rain, phantom army, etc., powers that pre-ED you could perma (some with hasten, some without) that you can't any longer.
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And as for Stalkers? Sorry, my lvl 37 has absolutely NO problem what so ever burning through missions- with or with out needing AS up at every mob.
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Well my lvl 16 gets his [censored] kicked all the time, so I can only guess they get better with time and lots and lots of slots.
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Sorry this game is so tough for you, and so unliked- why do you play if it bothers you so much?
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The game isn't tough for me, but many times it's not fun either. And I continue to play it because despite it's failings it still manages to remain moderately entertaining to some degree, at least enough for me to keep playing and paying. And again, it's not like there's another, better, super hero MMO I could be playing.
But I'm also haunted by what once was, and the frustrations of knowing how good this game COULD be, but never WILL be.
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How could this game be better?
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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How could this game be better?
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I said it a few pages back, here and here
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i'll take a page from the same people trying to dismiss people like you and I:
You're wasting your time trying to point out what you percieve as flaws in the game. Some people are just so enamored with what the devs do everything they do is gold and they can never do wrong. They think anyone with a complaint is just a whiner who should get over it or just cancel their account. They never even consider that maybe some complaints have some validity.
See what I did there? I can be dismissive too.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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How could this game be better?
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I said it a few pages back, here and here
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i'll take a page from the same people trying to dismiss people like you and I:
You're wasting your time trying to point out what you percieve as flaws in the game. Some people are just so enamored with what the devs do everything they do is gold and they can never do wrong. They think anyone with a complaint is just a whiner who should get over it or just cancel their account.
See what I did there? I can be dismissive too.
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I have found that when people refuse to debate the merits of the argument at hand and stoop to personal or character attacks, it basically means you've hit the nail on the head and they have nothing that can rebuke your discussion.
So don't see it as being nasty or dismissive, just see it as a childish way of acknowledging they just lost the debate.
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How could this game be better?
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I said it a few pages back, here and here
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i'll take a page from the same people trying to dismiss people like you and I:
You're wasting your time trying to point out what you percieve as flaws in the game. Some people are just so enamored with what the devs do everything they do is gold and they can never do wrong. They think anyone with a complaint is just a whiner who should get over it or just cancel their account.
See what I did there? I can be dismissive too.
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I have found that when people refuse to debate the merits of the argument at hand and stoop to personal or character attacks, it basically means you've hit the nail on the head and they have nothing that can rebuke your discussion.
So don't see it as being nasty or dismissive, just see it as a childish way of acknowledging they just lost the debate.
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I guess you are right. I just wish people would take the time to see my point of view cause I always take time to see theirs
I wont ever deny there have been many BUFFS and good additions to the game.
I would even go so far as to say the good outweighs the bad in many cases
But it seems the people who cared enough to complain mostly left and those that remain accept most anything they get handed no matter if its good or not.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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When the hell was phase "required" for a raid (aside from way way back and that was stopped in the same time period) this just seems mean and serves no purpose, kinda like stopping all those uber mega overpowered /dev blasters from teleporting their crazy overpowered autoturret about.......
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Heh. And those /dev blasters wouldn't need to teleport their crazy over powered auto turrets around if they could slot them with RANGE enhancements.
Wouldn't that you know, fit a BLASTER power?
Man... wow...
Well I like Backally's attempt to explain. & while PAs could still be useful PS is 100% useless. That would be like making everyone with Acrobatics get knocked down when hit by hami or a mito. So, make him attack PAs & able to kill them & ignore PSers. Easy. 
Though I'd love to have Backally chime in again about how Hami can kill something that's not real.
But he did make an attempt to explain & it was good. Props for that. But the devs still get a lazy point for inaccurate power descriptions. I'm pretty sure PAs description says they aren't real so they can't be killed.
It makes plenty of sense to me.
Hami is a self-engineered, mutating macroorganism.
He was attacked by raiders led by perma-phase shifted targetters for a while, and he's been dealing with illusionary armies for a couple years now.
It makes perfect sense to me that he has now mutated himself to be able to hit things that are phased out of normal space and to be able to destroy illusions.
The new raid is easier to organize, easier to complete, and impossible to 'fail' (in the sense that it previously could be failed). I don't see what people are complaining about regarding the raid, and I really don't see Phase Shift as useless.
I don't see it as so useful that I would take the Concealment pool just to get it. However, if I was already taking Stealth and Invis (or Grant Invis) I would strongly consider working it in. I know from experience on my Warshade that it can be very useful in a variety of situations.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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It makes plenty of sense to me.
Hami is a self-engineered, mutating macroorganism.
He was attacked by raiders led by perma-phase shifted targetters for a while, and he's been dealing with illusionary armies for a couple years now.
It makes perfect sense to me that he has now mutated himself to be able to hit things that are phased out of normal space and to be able to destroy illusions.
The new raid is easier to organize, easier to complete, and impossible to 'fail' (in the sense that it previously could be failed). I don't see what people are complaining about regarding the raid, and I really don't see Phase Shift as useless.
I don't see it as so useful that I would take the Concealment pool just to get it. However, if I was already taking Stealth and Invis (or Grant Invis) I would strongly consider working it in. I know from experience on my Warshade that it can be very useful in a variety of situations.
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Well that's the first thing we've agreed upon this entire thread 
i'm honestly surprised the Dev's haven't just made Hami flat out immune to damage from players unless they've used the Essense of Fire inspiration.
not to be confused with Essense of earth.
Earth - grants resistance to Hamidon Damage
Air - an end buff for a short duration.
Fire - grants the ability to damage the hamidon
Water - grants the ability to heal damage taken from the hamidon (watch this'll be next. a -regen to his damage)
it'll happen folks.
watch.
it's not like the devs have anything else to do besides rework Hami every other issue or so.
lol
this is absurd
Essence of Earth is just there to help us while we learn how to do the raid. Training Wheels so to speak.
The devs have plenty of other things they are working on besides Hami.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Now let's say for [censored] and giggles we take all the common baddies in the game and reduce their health, damage, and XP by 80%. And then we increase the spawn sizes by a factor 5. So now, instead of facing spawns of 3-5, you're facing 15-25. Holy Full House Batman! Now you actually have something *worthy* to fight.
The tank/brute/scrapper plows thru them like a bulldozer, foes flying everywhere, constantly surrounding you, trying to overpower you, but they are but flies and you rip thru them like a hot knife thru butter. You're taking some damage here and there, but nothing you can't handle, and you're definitely working up a sweat cause you're just cycling thru powers non-stop. Mmmm quite satisfying.
The defender is momentarily daunted, but with their array of buffs and debuffs they too find it highly satisfying watching 2 dozen baddies bounce up and down on a tar patch, or flee from a chilling freezing rain, all the while being picked off one by one. Yes indeed, so very satisfying.
And can you just IMAGINE the sheer joy a team of 8 would be like this??? I get goose-pimply just thinking about it.
NOW you feel like a super hero.
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I would truely love to have that at times as well. And I think the devs would like to have something like but, but I beleive that design considerations prevent it. A lo of players on the CoV side of the house take a bit hit in framerate if too many MMs are on the team. You hope for the bestest systems to run your game, but you have to design for more modest systems. I think that the 3 minions = 1 Heroes is partially in reponse to that design contraint.
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I think this could be achieved by simply adding another "difficulty setting" where enemy number would be three times more than normal but conning green minions and blue lieutenants. Some of my characters would really enjoy such a setting.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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Now let's say for [censored] and giggles we take all the common baddies in the game and reduce their health, damage, and XP by 80%. And then we increase the spawn sizes by a factor 5. So now, instead of facing spawns of 3-5, you're facing 15-25. Holy Full House Batman! Now you actually have something *worthy* to fight.
The tank/brute/scrapper plows thru them like a bulldozer, foes flying everywhere, constantly surrounding you, trying to overpower you, but they are but flies and you rip thru them like a hot knife thru butter. You're taking some damage here and there, but nothing you can't handle, and you're definitely working up a sweat cause you're just cycling thru powers non-stop. Mmmm quite satisfying.
The defender is momentarily daunted, but with their array of buffs and debuffs they too find it highly satisfying watching 2 dozen baddies bounce up and down on a tar patch, or flee from a chilling freezing rain, all the while being picked off one by one. Yes indeed, so very satisfying.
And can you just IMAGINE the sheer joy a team of 8 would be like this??? I get goose-pimply just thinking about it.
NOW you feel like a super hero.
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I would truely love to have that at times as well. And I think the devs would like to have something like but, but I beleive that design considerations prevent it. A lo of players on the CoV side of the house take a bit hit in framerate if too many MMs are on the team. You hope for the bestest systems to run your game, but you have to design for more modest systems. I think that the 3 minions = 1 Heroes is partially in reponse to that design contraint.
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I think this could be achieved by simply adding another "difficulty setting" where enemy number would be three times more than normal but conning green minions and blue lieutenants. Some of my characters would really enjoy such a setting.
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That sounds like a fun idea 
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
This is the third time you've done a major nerf (yes, that IS the right word) to Phase Shift:
1) Escalating endurance usage PLUS
2) Time limit on usage
3) No has that "Cannot be harmed" from the original description.
If it's not something you want in the game, how about removing it and replacing it with something that still has a use?
PS is still very much a great power, since its the ultimate aww crap button in the game. The only exception to this is the ultimate BBG in the game, Hami. I've always thought it was moronic that the greatest danger to the entire City of universe couldn't hit through PS. To make matters worse he not only couldn't destroy Phantom Army decoys, but was too stupid to realize that he couldn't destroy them.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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Not true. Challenge can come in numbers, which I have said many times over the years is the first and foremost way the devs could turn this game around.
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The devs have addressed this in the past, when talking about the GDN in I5. People suggested increasing the number of foes instead of nerfing defenses. The response was that the game doesn't handle it well. Imagine an 8-person team where there were 10 foes per player per spawn. The problem isn't the servers but the game engine, and interactions of that with people's client computers. As mentioned, some people can't play with masterminds due to the lag it causes them.
Sure, maybe they could spend time working on the core graphics engine, or the core game event loop which we see slow down at events like Hamidon raids. The question is one of cost/benefit. Is that really going to bring back enough people to bother with the time and effort? It seems to me we might already have the answer to that.
Beyond that, there are balance problems with large numbers of minor foes. AoE powers (and thus AoE powersets) gain a trenendous economy in such situations. Single-target attacks suffer from overkill, making them involve much wasted endurance, while AoEs can apply that overkill to their AoE limit in foes, making them vastly more efficient in both endurance and time. This would almost certainly spill over into other mechanics, such as the current drop rate mechanics of Inventions, which are at least partly on a per-mob basis. People would be farming these "en masse" missions within minutes of their arrival. All things are possible with time and money, but that example alone tells me there would need to be other under-the-hood changes to allow a slider setting like this.
Personally, I can tell you I wouldn't find enjoyable a setting that surrounded me with gimpy foes. As true to classic comic imagery as that is, I don't do that now. I play on the settings that give me fewer, higher-level foes, because I enjoy the harder one-on-one fighting, even consistently from minion to minion, more than I do mowing faster through large numbers of foes. My opinion on this in no way invalidates yours, but I present it to show that your ideas of what would make the game better aren't universal. Could your ideas be a good game? Of course, and maybe better than CoH ... assuming a fresh start with those goals in mind. My perspective is rooted in the history of what this game is now and how it got here, mixed with some of the realities the devs have explained to us about limitations and their own time constraints.
Don't take my perspective, which I consider to be something of a realist's viewpoint, to mean I am a dev fanboy. I'm not. I don't hate the devs, and I don't think they ruined the game. But there are past decisions and new ones with I9 that I despise and don't feel are justified. I think some powersets are still unnecessarily weak. I do think this game can be better than it is. I just don't happen to think that mass solo combat is required for it to be better. I don't think a repeal of the GDN or even ED, which I disliked intensely, are called for.
Nor do I think that making Hamidon able to blast through "Untouchable" status is a sign of a coming nerfpocalypse. Time will tell.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Not true. Challenge can come in numbers, which I have said many times over the years is the first and foremost way the devs could turn this game around.
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The devs have addressed this in the past, when talking about the GDN in I5. People suggested increasing the number of foes instead of nerfing defenses. The response was that the game doesn't handle it well. Imagine an 8-person team where there were 10 foes per player per spawn. The problem isn't the servers but the game engine, and interactions of that with people's client computers. As mentioned, some people can't play with masterminds due to the lag it causes them.
Sure, maybe they could spend time working on the core graphics engine, or the core game event loop which we see slow down at events like Hamidon raids. The question is one of cost/benefit. Is that really going to bring back enough people to bother with the time and effort? It seems to me we might already have the answer to that.
Beyond that, there are balance problems with large numbers of minor foes. AoE powers (and thus AoE powersets) gain a trenendous economy in such situations. Single-target attacks suffer from overkill, making them involve much wasted endurance, while AoEs can apply that overkill to their AoE limit in foes, making them vastly more efficient in both endurance and time. This would almost certainly spill over into other mechanics, such as the current drop rate mechanics of Inventions, which are currently at least partly on a per-mob basis. People would be farming these "en masse" missions within minutes of their arrival.
Personally, I can tell you I wouldn't find enjoyable a setting that surrounded me with gimpy foes. As true to classic comic imagery as that is, I don't do that now. I play on the settings that give me fewer, higher-level foes, because I enjoy the harder one-on-one fighting, even consistently from minion to minion, more than I do mowing faster through large numbers of foes. My opinion on this in no way invalidates yours, but I present it to show that your ideas of what would make the game better aren't universal. Could your ideas be a good game? Of course, and maybe better than CoH ... assuming a fresh start with those goals in mind. My perspective is rooted in the history of what this game is now and how it got here, mixed with some of the realities the devs have explained to us about limitations and their own time constraints.
Don't take my perspective, which I consider to be something of a realist's viewpoint, to mean I am a dev fanboy. I'm not. I don't hate the devs, and I don't think they ruined the game. But there are past decisions and new ones with I9 that I despise and don't feel are justified. I think some powersets are still unnecessarily weak. I do think this game can be better than it is. I just don't happen to think that mass solo combat is required for it to be better. I don't think a repeal of the GDN or even ED, which I disliked intensely, are called for.
Nor do I think that making Hamidon blast through "Untouchable" status is a sign of a coming nerfpocalypse. Time will tell.
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I don't agree with the cost/beneift analysis being the only thing that should determine if something vary major is undertaken by the devs.
The cost/benefit of inventions versus new ATs, content, epic ats, powersets, zones, and arcs is one example of where sometimes fun trumps cost/benefit analysis.
However, I agree that a super powerful being should know how to evolve.
Also if they could have coded it where PS was not hit by the PA change, I'm sure they would have.
However, they now need to change the power description of PA. As its no longer accurate. There is an exception to its current description that players SHOULD be made aware of.
Also the subsequent change to PS should have been noted in the patch notes.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I don't agree with the cost/beneift analysis being the only thing that should determine if something vary major is undertaken by the devs.
The cost/benefit of inventions versus new ATs, content, epic ats, powersets, zones, and arcs is one example of where sometimes fun trumps cost/benefit analysis.
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Nor do I feel it should be the only thing, and I didn't suggest it should. I was talking specifically about the cost/benefit analysis of improving the core engine to support larger mass combat as a slider setting. I consider the "cost" of that analysis to include time lost for working on new powersets/ATs, new mission features, fixing old bugs and other things that would require programmer resources. (I feel pretty confident that the mission and zone editing staff are not the same as the programming staff.)
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Also the subsequent change to PS should have been noted in the patch notes.
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I don't believe there was a change to PS. There was a change to Hamidon, or possibly to the "Untouchable" status effect (which affects more than PS) to give Hamidon a free pass. None of the changes to Hamidon were enumerated in the patch notes.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I hate when standard mobs "cheat" the rules with player powers, but I'm perfectly fine with a raid mob like Hamidon doing it. I really don't see your point, other than you seem to be taking advantage of your account reactivation to drop in and be negative wherever you can.
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My point was that Hamidon side-steps (ie. "cheats") on a great many "rules" of the game in order to present a challenge. Rather than debuffing resistances, Hamidon does untyped and/or toxic damage. Hamidon "ignores" defenses. Hamidon can smack you around through Phase Shift ... and so on. Rather than using the existing mechanics which everyone else is beholden to, Hamidon is "allowed" to simply bypass them.
If a player were able to do the same thing, we'd call that "cheating" ... plain and simple.
Reminds me of a situation in Civilization 2, where rather than making the AI controlled players "pay for" World Wonders (in an honest fashion) by investing resources to build them, the AI just randomly "awarded" the Wonders at zero cost to one of the AI players every-so-often if they weren't already built. Basically ... the game "cheated" ... rather than playing by the same rules that you have to.
Hamidon does much the same thing in order to provide a challenge. He doesn't play by the same "rules" that the players do, or even any other AVs do. Loopholes and exceptions have had to be made for Hamidon, in such profusion, that Hamidon barely even plays by the same rules that anyone else does.
You say you're fine with that.
I'm wondering if it was possible to achieve the same results without needing to "cheat" the rules of the game the way Hamidon currently does ... and if so (granted not necessarily a possibility), why wasn't Hamidon implemented THAT way instead.
And for what it's worth ... I agree with the OP. Hamidon is yet another example of why the Concealment Pool just isn't what it used to be ...
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The problem is: the game has relied upon this kind of "cheating" since day 1, and IMO is one of the main reasons why it's not a more popular and fun game to play than it is.
Hamidon aside, there are many, many foes in the game that are still using either pre-release and/or un-nerfed versions of player powers. Foes have always been able to side-step the rules that players are forced to abide by.
When was the last time you saw a flying foe such as a freak or longbow get slowed to a crawl after attacking you? And when was the last time you were able to move at a greatly enhanced running speed while disoriented?
Why can foes instantly lock on to you and queue up multiple attacks before your alpha attack even finishes its animation/activation cycle?
Why can one foe smoke grenade completely floor the entire team's perception even after they attack, yet player versions lose what pathetically little effect they have as soon as an attack is launched?
Why do foes keep getting upgraded status-type effects that players, by and large, have no countenance for? Sorry _Castle_, but I can respec and reslot until doomsday and still never be able to hit a phase-shifted Carnie, gain a meaningful resistance to psionic attacks on my INV/SS tank, be able to run out of 10 applications of Artemis caltrops, be able to fully resist a Sapper's end drain attack, or protect myself from multiple Longbow -resistance sonic grenades that apparently are many times stronger than the un-enhanceable player versions.
Why can foes still attack even though they have no endurance, but I can't even fart when I've run dry?
Why does a simple no-name minion's cheap Wal-Mart sledgehammer do as much or more damage than my 3-SO slotted "high damage" attack?
The list is virtually endless. For a game that's supposed to be a Super Hero RPG, they sure go far outta their way to make us feel most decidedly un-super. And again, no amount of respeccing and reslotting is ever going to change that.
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This sums up CoH for me. It's why I left for a year. I came back for inventions and because a few friends still play. I think once my 3 months are up, I'll be going away again, because for a superhero MMO, you aren't very super compared tot eh people you fight.
When every AV, boss, and EB is far more powerful than you can ever hope to become, no matter how many respecs, slots, or inventions you put into your powers... Why bother? It just isn't fun for me to play as a second-rate hero, far less than the signature heroes and villains. They're so far out of our league, it takes 8 of US to equal one of THEM.
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
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So...I questioned your statement that a power is useless because a) ONE monster in the ENTIRE GAME can shoot through it and b) it has a 30 second timer, and you responded with that much bile? Wow.
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Because now that Hami has "adapted" this ability, the door is wide open for other foes to magically "adapt" this ability. What's to stop the devs from giving giant monsters, Lusca, the Ghost of Scrapyard, any/all of the signature heroes and villains, or any number of zone monsters and AVs the ability to ignore phase shift? In a single word: nothing. And the rationale? "Well, they adapted like all living organisms do."
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Yeah, they could do that.
They can do anything they damn well want, ultimately.
I don't see them doing that for non-endgame content, because I think it would be stupid.
You may thing Hamidon's design is stupid. I don't, for reasons stated. If things that poke through phase shift and hibernate start showing up in door missions then I'll be on the bandwagon with you.
Simply because they did it in this particular case doesn't mean they're dense enough to do it everywhere.
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What I would like to see is "new" powers given to mobs instead of using the same powers we have but not following the same rules. If we can't stack vengeance neither should the mobs, come up with something creative instead. I hate to use the word realism because this is a game about comic heroes, but it is frustrating to have our species (heroes) "devolve" while mobs "evolve".
This thread is so derailed, I'm not even going to attempt an counterargument.
It's apparent, however, that some posters will never feel good about this game and should probably move on for everyone's benefit, as I believe no amount of debate will change their secular viewpoints, and hence create a moot discussion.
I've almost always felt heroic in this game. Some people get too hung up on mechanics to feel that way I suppose.