IO build example: Fire/Fire Tanker
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2007-04-24 11:58 in The Market and Inventions
Great stuff, it's really useful to have IO builds broken down in this way, keep up the good work!
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Will the builds feel gimped when you exemp? I don't think there can be any question that they will - the set bonuses are too powerful not to notice their absence. But will they be gimped compared to the i8 build exemped to the same level? I don't think so.
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I have a pretty hard time understanding this, and if you posted a breakdown of your thoughts on it, I'd appreciate it.
Why do I have a hard time understanding it?
Well, you've adimittedly done several non-optimal slotting from a I8/ED perspective things. In particular, you've slotted less damage, recharge or accuracy than "normal", in the expectation that these will be corrected/supplemented by set bonuses. In addition, you potentially have slots that literally do nothing, such as the extra three slots in Health that contain the uniques. Maybe not all three are nulled, depending on your exemplar level, but in the I8 build those slots would actually enhance something somewhere else.
If you're one of the lucky folks who has access to a lot of HOs, this seems even worse, because the "slot compression" you get out of HOs goes a long way to helping counter the loss of enhancement strength that happens with Exemplaring. Since (in contrast to HOs) multifunction IOs have enhancement strengths lower than SOs, it's hard for me to see how it wouldn't be better to just blow off set bonuses nearly entirely if you plan to (for example) PvP in Siren's Call. I'd be happy to be shown this is wrong, though.
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QFT, if you are comparing a standard build with one with almost nothing but IOs, and I suspect some of them pretty hard to get, you should compare a fully tricked out HO build. That is probably somewhere close to as difficult to obtain, and is an equally viable strategy for I9 with the STF.
That said, this is a really interesting read, and has given me plenty of ideas for I9.
Mr Minotaur 50 stone/axe tank Freedom and 100+ alts, see you in the invention tutorial for the first 3 weeks of I9 
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
Wow. Great write-up Scrapulous!
Now can you write a guide on how to earn the 1,000,000,000 Inf that will be required to put those IO builds together in less than 5 years? 
Just wanted to say what an awesome guide this is. Your guides really help a casual player like me become more and more excited about the possibilities of I9. *thumbs up*
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first post after dev!!!
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Who the hell cares!!??
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go [censored] yourself
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Ah, another quality post from cohwatchdog, the best poster EVAR 
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Once crazy nutty thing your might think about is using Temperature Protection. Yeah granted it's passive powers and kind redundent, but it's also a Damage Resistance power. Any IO's slotted are always active. A KB Protection and Steadfast Protection's Unique +DEF are good choice to slot into it. And you would get the first set bonus.
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But the whole thing about getting KB protection IOs is so we don't have to take Acrobatics and thus free up a power pick.
I mean, it's not like there's ever a time you're not going to run Fire Shield. Just drop it in there and it might as well be in a passive.
You could make the arguement that if you expect to get detoggled, having it a passive will mean you can't be chain-knockbacked (preventing you from retoggling even if you break the mez). However, this is extremely unlikely to occur anywhere except PvP... but admittedly it is a point.
@Mindshadow
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Will the builds feel gimped when you exemp? I don't think there can be any question that they will - the set bonuses are too powerful not to notice their absence. But will they be gimped compared to the i8 build exemped to the same level? I don't think so.
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I have a pretty hard time understanding this, and if you posted a breakdown of your thoughts on it, I'd appreciate it.
Why do I have a hard time understanding it?
Well, you've adimittedly done several non-optimal slotting from a I8/ED perspective things. In particular, you've slotted less damage, recharge or accuracy than "normal", in the expectation that these will be corrected/supplemented by set bonuses. In addition, you potentially have slots that literally do nothing, such as the extra three slots in Health that contain the uniques. Maybe not all three are nulled, depending on your exemplar level, but in the I8 build those slots would actually enhance something somewhere else.
If you're one of the lucky folks who has access to a lot of HOs, this seems even worse, because the "slot compression" you get out of HOs goes a long way to helping counter the loss of enhancement strength that happens with Exemplaring. Since (in contrast to HOs) multifunction IOs have enhancement strengths lower than SOs, it's hard for me to see how it wouldn't be better to just blow off set bonuses nearly entirely if you plan to (for example) PvP in Siren's Call. I'd be happy to be shown this is wrong, though.
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Ahh, but if you are *planning* on doing a lot of PvP fighting in siren's (or where ever), then quite obviously, your build would need to be different than that given.
The build the OP put together (and thanks!, it helped me get a better handle on this whole invention thingy) is pretty obviously built primarily for large team tanking in PvE at high levels.
One thing I've noticed about "tricked out" IO builds is that they tend to become much more specialized in what they do than the more general SO (or even HO) builds. This isn't a bad thing, just potentially a complex thing to deal with.
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
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Just wanted to say what an awesome guide this is. Your guides really help a casual player like me become more and more excited about the possibilities of I9. *thumbs up*
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It's huge, and I'll need to read it in more detail, but gWrath succinctly summarizes my sentiment of this guide. Good work Scrapulous
Excellent write up, my eyes are really starting to open up to IO's and I'm, grudginly but gradually forgiving the ED madness.
BUT, I must say, I'm feeling like a mental midget hashing this all out ... here's looking to the upcoming plethora of guides ...
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I have a pretty hard time understanding this, and if you posted a breakdown of your thoughts on it, I'd appreciate it.
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Sure, I'm happy to.
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Well, you've adimittedly done several non-optimal slotting from a I8/ED perspective things. In particular, you've slotted less damage, recharge or accuracy than "normal", in the expectation that these will be corrected/supplemented by set bonuses.
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I don't feel that I have done a lot of sub-optimal slotting, actually. I slotted for set bonuses (which typically involved 6-slotting the attacks - not exactly sub-optimal) for +Regen and +Health, and I was merely pleasantly surprised by the secondary benefits of the +tohit and +Recharge.
I can see why you might think that I did slot less than optimally, because I wrote a lot about that possibility. But doing that would have reduced some important set bonuses, so I didn't. The primary powers in each build are very well slotted. When I did the power-by-power breakdown, all of those values are raw enhancement values without set bonuses factored in. I don't factor set bonuses in until the very last section where I talk about "what we have gained." I can see that I should make that more clear.
The only areas that are weak in both builds are areas that are explicitly outside the build's specialty. So the PBAoE build has weaker ST attacks than the i8 version. I don't feel that this is sub-optimal, because the PBAoE attacks have all gained compared to i8. The build fulfils its purpose admirably. It'll be weaker against single targets at 50, but during the early and mid game it's actually more balanced than the i8 build (which doesn't get any ST slotting until the late 30s, while the i9 version gets a slot in each ST attack early on).
For example: Scorch and Boxing have these enhancements without set bonuses:
acc: +21.8%
dam: +43.6%
rch: +21.8%
and Incinerate has
acc: +21.8%
dam: +91.9%
end: +21.8%
rch: +48.3%
They're not totally ideal, but they're very respectable ST attacks in a build that is optimized in every way for AoE. It also occurs to me that I used the Pounding Slugfest (levels 10-30) set to slot the ST attacks in the PBAoE build, so those set bonuses will be around for some exemplaring.
In the ST build, the ST attacks are all slotted more powerfully in every dimension than in the i8 build. Furthermore, there is a single PBAoE attack that I couldn't have fit into an i8 version of the ST build (because we had to take Acrobatics). Without set bonuses, the PBAoE attack won't be very useful, slotted as it is for only damage. Those who plan to exemp a lot would get more mileage out of an acc/dmg HO in that single slot. But I don't think FSC is going to be a core element of your exemping strategy.
So the raw enhancement values in each build's primary offensive function are better than the i8 SO equivalent. The raw enhancement values in secondary offense abilities are worse but not awful in the PBAoE build and better merely for existing in the ST build. If you're playing to the build's strengths, I don't think they'll be gimped compared to the i8 SO baseline.
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In addition, you potentially have slots that literally do nothing, such as the extra three slots in Health that contain the uniques.
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The few globals I slotted are more than made up for by the extra enhancement value of the multi-aspect IOs.
Of course, I used SOs in my i8 build as the baseline for comparison, and I think that's where our assessments differ.
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If you're one of the lucky folks who has access to a lot of HOs, this seems even worse, because the "slot compression" you get out of HOs goes a long way to helping counter the loss of enhancement strength that happens with Exemplaring.
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To some extent this is true. But not as much as it may seem.
Let's compare an HO'd PBAoE with our PBAoEs above.
HO: 3 acc/dam HOs, 1 IO end, 2 IO rch
acc: +95%
dam: +95%
end: +42.4%
rch: +84.8%
Set IO: Scirocco's Dervish: acc/dam, dam/end, dam/rech, acc/rech, acc/dam/end, lethal proc
acc: +74.2%
dam: +95.1%
end: +47.7%
rech: +47.7%
HO slotting is superior in accuracy, although at levels of accuracy that are pretty high in the first place. For PvP this is a concern; for PvE I'd argue that the difference is unnoticeable in all but extreme cases.
HO and Set IO slotting are equivalent in damage.
HO and Set IO slotting are nearly equivalent in endurance reduction: Set IO has a small edge.
HO slotting beats Set IO slotting by a noticeable amount in recharge.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Attack Set IO recharge HO recharge
Combustion 10.2s 8.1s
FSC 13.5s 10.8s
Burn 27.1s 21.7s
Consume* 93.0s 97.4s
Blazing Aura N/A N/A
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*Consume was slotted differently than the other PBAoEs in the i9 build - it lost the proc and gained a common rch IO, to make its native rch enhancement 93.5%, higher than the HO slotting example.
Blazing Aura is treated as N/A because it's a toggle.
So the major area of difference is in recharge. And it's not an insignificant difference. I don't think it will alter an attack chain, because I haven't seen a PBAoE attack chain for a fire tank, really - PBAoEs are so situational for efficient use that they don't chain well. But it certainly will have an impact on overall DPS.
Will it be a noticeable difference? Probably. Will it mean that the set bonus focused i9 PBAoE build will be gimped next to the HO-focused i8 PBAoE build when both are exemplared? If one recharge enhancement is the difference between "gimped" and "not gimped," then I guess so, but I don't think that's the case.
We can make a similar comparison for the ST attacks:
HO: 3 acc/dam HOs, 1 IO end, 2 IO rch
acc: +95%
dam: +95%
end: +42.4%
rch: +84.8%
Set IO: Crushing Impact: acc/dmg, dmg/end, dmg/rch, acc/dmg/rch, acc/dmg/end, dmg/end/rch
acc: +68.9%
dam: +101.5%
end: +68.9%
rech: +68.9%
Once again, HO slotting beats Set IO slotting in accuracy. Outside of PvP, most players won't notice a difference unless they're fighting +4s or higher. Set IO slotting is slightly more damaging, and noticeably more end-efficient. It is also noticeably slower.
The ST attacks compare more favorably because the Crushing Impact set that we used doesn't "waste" a slot on a proc - all six slots are devoted to enhancement.
Let's look at recharge values:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Attack Set IO recharge HO recharge
Scorch* 2.1s 1.6s
Fire Sword 3.6s 3.3s
Boxing 1.5s 1.4s
Incinerate 5.9s 5.4s
Greater Fire Sword 7.1s 6.5s
</pre><hr />
*Scorch had a slot removed, so it only has a recharge value of 42.4% - if anything, this analysis shows that I should have done that to Boxing, instead. Alternately, boxing could profitably get a chance to disorient proc, either of two chance to knockdown procs, or the chance for NE damage proc, at the cost of negligible recharge benefit and some Psi resistance.
For ST attacks, the recharge difference is much less noticeable, both because the difference in recharge between Set IO slotting and HO slotting is less in this instance and also because ST attacks tend to recharge faster than AoE attacks so the marginal benefit of higher recharge is less noticeable.
These differences will have a small impact on attack chain, but I don't think the differences are enough to say that the Set IO build is gimped, especially since it's doing slightly more damage and for a less endurance.
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Since (in contrast to HOs) multifunction IOs have enhancement strengths lower than SOs
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That's true except for quad-aspect enhancers, which have enhancement strengths higher than HOs (72% compared to 66.6%). When mixing and matching sets, if I have use for all four aspects I typically try to stack quad enhancers from every set I'm using if I can for exactly this reason.
Scrap
I think I saw a post talking about how +Heal percentage to all healing powers doesnt effect powers with secondary effects. This means while Thermal, Radiation and Emapthy toons will love it, Regeneration toons wont get a boost to powers like Reconstruction or Firey Aura with Healing Flames that get resistance to Toxic damage.
I'm curious if that includes Health from Fitness for it's resisitance to Sleep or Aid Self for it's Stun resistance.
Thanks for this thread, too. I love the fact my FA/SS tank may be able to get Haymaker or (gasp) Taunt before the endgame with a knockback resist IO in Combat Jumping or Weave. And that I'll have the option to respec out of CJ once I get Weave. Nice to have choices.
Thank you, City of Heroes, for giving me a superhero social network combined with amazingly smooth game play. Petitions signed with realistic expectations.
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This stuff seems awfuly complicated. How is a casual gamer going to be able to understand this stuff? Also, With all these choices we have to make, could we please get in-game stats of our powers so we can make decisions based on more than just our Enhancement bonuses. Not everyone knows what the base stats are and it would be so nice to have it all totalled up in game to see where we are wasting slots.
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I have to echo this.
I have friends who love "the numbers," plan around it and the like. I... don't. That was true in PNP gaming, and it's true here. I'd burn "useful" picks for something fun - for instance, I have a Dark/Thermal Corr who's dipping into Presence for the Fears - because it fits who she is, not because they're particularly effective.
I'm looking at this, looking at my Fire/SS and Fire/EM tanks, and going... "Uh... sure." I've got decent SGs, so teaming isn't an issue - but how are you going to explain to PUGs that the reason you're more squishy is that you don't have Positrons Poultice or Manticores Mantle of Manliness slotted, so you have half the HP or whatever of the last Fire/* tank they saw and not the same defenses?
I keep going back and forth on inventions. There are some things I like - yay, KB protection. Then there's stuff like this.
I'm not criticizing the work done - it's an excellent guide to an ideal, and an example of what can be done. With that, the OP has done an admirable job. It's everything it points to in the inventions system as far as complexity - "and remember to slot them at the appropriate levels when you respec," too.
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Great guide, Scrap - a must read, IMO, whether you play tankers or not.
I'd give you a Guide Guru title if I could. 
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I agree!
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QFT, if you are comparing a standard build with one with almost nothing but IOs, and I suspect some of them pretty hard to get, you should compare a fully tricked out HO build. That is probably somewhere close to as difficult to obtain, and is an equally viable strategy for I9 with the STF.
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I used SOs as a baseline for a few reasons.
First, everybody who has a level 22 or higher character knows what an SO is and how it works. They're sufficiently common that I can use them as a basis for comparison and expect that everybody reading knows what I'm talking about.
Second, I think it's actually pretty uncommon for a given build to have access to all the HOs it could use. I know that there are plenty of people out there with characters like that, but I suspect that the majority are not in this enviable situation.
Third, HO builds only apply to levels 47 and up. IO set builds can start implementation at level 10 (7 if you're really on the ball) and can evolve and grow during almost all of a character's lifetime. If my baseline build was an HO example, the comparisons I make later in the guide would be meaningless for any fire/fire tank who isn't fully HO-d out.
Granted, I show the builds at their level 50 end-state, but the principles apply on the way to 50. My Test fire/fire tank dinged 34 last night. She has some Scirocco's Dervish enhancements in five different PBAoEs - each has at least two (for the +Regen), and one has four. The level range of the enhancements is 22-35. She is already noticeably tougher than her Live counterpart - on Live I use Healing Flames much more often than I do on Test.
Fourth, I think anybody who has dozens of HOs is probably sufficiently savvy that he can tweak my example and make his own comparison.
Finally, I consider HOs not to be as magnificent as many people seem to. They're certainly excellent, but for attacks they aren't really as great as some people suggest. Why not?
What is the priority for attacks? Damage, obviously. But HOs rarely offer an advantage over even SOs. In both HO and SO slotting, attacks are typically at the damage cap, so there is no advantage here.
The next priority is accuracy. HO slotting typically has more than SO slotting, but for most PvE applications, beyond about 1.5 SOs worth of accuracy you're not going to notice much of a difference. So there's some extra value in HOs, but not a whole lot.
Tied for third priority are endurance reduction and recharge. They actually aren't tied, but which is more important depends on the attack and the attack chain, so let's consider them equivalents for now. HO slotting makes enough room that you can slot one more of either endurance reduction or recharge than you could with SO slotting. That's nice, but both endurance reduction and recharge operate on diminishing returns, so adding a second SO or IO isn't as impressive as adding the first. It's a nice boost, but not a big deal.
I actually think the best use of HOs in this case is to only 5 slot attacks instead of 6 slotting them, freeing the slots for other powers. In a slot-starved build this can make a huge difference, and here I will acknowledge that HOs are superior to SOs. In this case I'll note that you can get the slot benefit with only one HO.
Where I think HOs shine in particular is cases where you can slot six of them to get, say, 12 effective SOs of performance out of them. Such powers are few. Here's one: Lich. Slot it with 3 acc/debuff and 3 dmg/mez. The effective enhancement is:
acc: +95%
dmg: +95%
hold: +95%
fear: +95%
immb: +95%
acc debuff: +56%
This is actually 18 effective SOs of enhancement. HOs are clearly far superior to any alternative for this power.
But most powers can't benefit so much from HOs. I don't see a huge benefit for fire/fire tanks in i8, and what benefit there is is mostly in slot economy. And since the i8 build has slots to spare after the mid-30s, I see that as a dubious benefit. Moreover, since you can acquire competitive enhancement values with Set IOs, I think that's a superior option since you can start building the sets early in your career instead of waiting until level 47 to start building your character beyond SOs.
Scrap
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I heart Scrapulous.
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Quoted for Truthicality. Yet another great, informative read.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
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This stuff seems awfuly complicated. How is a casual gamer going to be able to understand this stuff? Also, With all these choices we have to make, could we please get in-game stats of our powers so we can make decisions based on more than just our Enhancement bonuses. Not everyone knows what the base stats are and it would be so nice to have it all totalled up in game to see where we are wasting slots.
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I have to echo this.
I have friends who love "the numbers," plan around it and the like. I... don't. That was true in PNP gaming, and it's true here. I'd burn "useful" picks for something fun - for instance, I have a Dark/Thermal Corr who's dipping into Presence for the Fears - because it fits who she is, not because they're particularly effective.
I'm looking at this, looking at my Fire/SS and Fire/EM tanks, and going... "Uh... sure." I've got decent SGs, so teaming isn't an issue - but how are you going to explain to PUGs that the reason you're more squishy is that you don't have Positrons Poultice or Manticores Mantle of Manliness slotted, so you have half the HP or whatever of the last Fire/* tank they saw and not the same defenses?
I keep going back and forth on inventions. There are some things I like - yay, KB protection. Then there's stuff like this.
I'm not criticizing the work done - it's an excellent guide to an ideal, and an example of what can be done. With that, the OP has done an admirable job. It's everything it points to in the inventions system as far as complexity - "and remember to slot them at the appropriate levels when you respec," too.
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I think in many cases it only has to be as complicated as you want it to be.
Just look at how Scrapulous has slotted many of his attacks: 6-slotted with a complete set of Scirocco's Dervish IOs. That's not all that complicated. All that's involved is trying to collect a complete set, which given the idea that the more of a set you collect the more nifty bonuses you get, is a no-brainer. And for the casual player, those nifty bonuses are just that: nifty bonuses.
(Your last sentence is off-base, I think. I'm not sure there is any need to slot anything at the appropriate levels when you respec; not any more of a need than pre-I9 anyway.)
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That's completely untrue. You are exemplared any time you enter a PvP zone under your level.
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Oooops, that's right, I forgot all about the PvP folks.
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first post after dev!!!
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Who the hell cares!!??
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go [censored] yourself
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Ah, another quality post from cohwatchdog, the best poster EVAR
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Didn't this sort childish" first post after a Dev" thing start on World of Warcraft?
Xanthor Defender 50 Empathy/Electricity/Power,
Arctic Heat 42 Tanker Fire/Ice/Pyre Guardian
Xanthor Blaster 50 Fire/Electricity/Electric
Dr Victor Fury MM 50 Robo/Dark/Mace Freedom
Support Big Red Balls
No. It was on the SWG forums long before that.
omg,
Scrap that is awesome. I have most of that aoe build going on test already. I needed to flesh it out better looking at the defense sets. I just need to read this about 10 times, to finish it out. I went for the ws after getting the basic regen build going. Weave is a brilliant move, that bears looking at. Wow, just wow.
That is an INCREDIBLE post!. I need to read this more than once, as it will prob clarify i9 completely. It is so detailed and thought out.
Now, did you get a chance to take a wack to the khelds?
You can really do some "stuff" to those toons by stacking bonuses. I don't know pbs realy well, but think you can get like a 30% or more recharge global on a pb (you have to build that way, with the global recharge and positrons). They need someone like you to do a major wirte up on them.
And you're nominated!
Awesome guide.
Very nice info. One nitpick - Tohit and Acc are not the same, and don't function the same. You can't really combine them additively for a meaningful number.
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first post after dev!!!
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First person to report the first person after a dev!
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Currently listening to Queen's Live at Wimbley Stadium
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and for the third and final time as of now...
go [censored] yourself thrice
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I dont want to have to go "blank" myself, but what exactly is the point of just posting that you posted after a dev? Are there "cool" points to be had? It certainly doesnt add to the discussion. I dont get it, and I dont understand your foul mouthed lashing out either...
Thanks, great post.
Gotta absorb this all in about a year when I have a lvl 50
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Will the builds feel gimped when you exemp? I don't think there can be any question that they will - the set bonuses are too powerful not to notice their absence. But will they be gimped compared to the i8 build exemped to the same level? I don't think so.
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I have a pretty hard time understanding this, and if you posted a breakdown of your thoughts on it, I'd appreciate it.
Why do I have a hard time understanding it?
Well, you've adimittedly done several non-optimal slotting from a I8/ED perspective things. In particular, you've slotted less damage, recharge or accuracy than "normal", in the expectation that these will be corrected/supplemented by set bonuses. In addition, you potentially have slots that literally do nothing, such as the extra three slots in Health that contain the uniques. Maybe not all three are nulled, depending on your exemplar level, but in the I8 build those slots would actually enhance something somewhere else.
If you're one of the lucky folks who has access to a lot of HOs, this seems even worse, because the "slot compression" you get out of HOs goes a long way to helping counter the loss of enhancement strength that happens with Exemplaring. Since (in contrast to HOs) multifunction IOs have enhancement strengths lower than SOs, it's hard for me to see how it wouldn't be better to just blow off set bonuses nearly entirely if you plan to (for example) PvP in Siren's Call. I'd be happy to be shown this is wrong, though.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA