IO build example: Fire/Fire Tanker
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2007-04-24 11:58 in The Market and Inventions
Wow dude! I spent the better part of an hour just reading it!
Incredibly informative, i can truely grasp the power of Inventions now lol I'm not sure ill ever craft a character to this exquisite awesomness.
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Wow dude! I spent the better part of an hour just reading it!
Incredibly informative, i can truely grasp the power of Inventions now lol I'm not sure ill ever craft a character to this exquisite awesomness.
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Good grief. I'm sure that is an amazing analysis but if this is the kind of understanding and analysis and comparison effort I'm going to have to do to make use of the IO system, to be anything than just another random d*****s who slots IO stuff just because it drops, then I just dont want to bother. Thats crazy. I'm sticking to SOs. Maybe in a year or two it will seep into my brain somehow.
Thanks for the posts, Scrapulous, I do appreciate it, and I know others will too. This IO stuff is just too much for me.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
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Fabulous guide
<QR>
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Sadly, something a lot of players will have to consider is how spectacularly gimp this build would be if it exemplared underneath the level of its set bonuses.
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How gimp would it be, actually? I think that question is going to be extra complex simply because, in order to be exemp'ed down, there pretty much has to be another player with you - one that very well might cover for any lost bonus sets.
Still, it would be good to cover in the guide, IMHO.
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Good grief. I'm sure that is an amazing analysis but if this is the kind of understanding and analysis and comparison effort I'm going to have to do to make use of the IO system, to be anything than just another random d*****s who slots IO stuff just because it drops, then I just dont want to bother. Thats crazy. I'm sticking to SOs.
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Nope, it ain't. The normal IOs are nice and simple. Easier than SO's in some ways. However, this does give the folks who love doing this kind of thing a *TON* of new debth by introducing the new set bonuses.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go hide under my desk and whimper for a bit. Once I get my confidence up, I'll resume reading the guide. 
Awsome Guide, This answers many questions , eventhough I have been testing, the collective what does it mean when in a build has puzzled me for a bit. It all makes perfect sense now.
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first post after dev!!! 
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Who the hell cares!!?? 
Further commenting on what I've recently learned about tohit vs accuracy:
You can't compare "DO-level" tohit with an accuracy DO. I'm going to use 50% as base accuracy as that is both PvP base accuracy and approximately the same as your accuracy against +2 or +3 foes (what I fight the most, and most tanks would).
In an attack with base acc 1, say Fire Sword, against a foe with no defense:
+15% Acc: 50%*(1+.15)=57.5%
+15% Tohit: 50%+15%=65%
Both: (50%+15%)*(1+.15)=74.75%
In an attack with 1.2 base acc, like Greater Fire Sword:
(50%+15%)*(1.2+.15)=87.75% chance.
(Disclaimer: That last part I just explored recently so I may have done it wrong.)
Fire sword against a foe with say 20% defense to melee/fire/lethal:
+15% Acc: (50%-20%)*(1+.15)=34.5%
+15% Tohit: (50%+15%-20%)=45%
Both: (50%+15%-20%)*(1+.15)=51.75%
GFS: (50%+15%-20%)*(1.2+.15)=60.75%
Now, to show where Accuracy is more important, let's say you're fighting Mako. Let's say he has a defense of 100% (about what all of SR 3 slotted gives you, minus Hide).
+15% Acc: (50%-100%) floored at 5%*(1+.15) = 5.75%
+15% Tohit: (50%+15%-100%) floored at 5% = 5%
Both: (50%+15%-100%) floored at 5%*(1+.15) = 5.75%
GFS: (50%+15%-100%) floored at 5%*(1.2+.15) = 6.75%
Generally speaking, the higher your tohit and the lower the enemy's defense, the more impact your Accuracy slotting has, as it is multiplied by the resulting Tohit amount, but the tohit floor changes things in the last case. (friggin mako)
If I've done anything wrong please correct me, I'm trying to understand this stuff as well as I can
This is a great guide, but it actually reinforces my already "IO stuff is just too complicated to mess with" frame of mind. I just know I'll be missing out on cool stuff with IOs. I wish there was a way to respec more often with IOs coming out since the number of slots in a power will be such a large concern, if you mess up all the sudden want that 5th slot to complete a set you are SOL.
Scatterpack Rad/Rad
~ Earthguard ~
Thanks to everybody for the kind words. I've gone back and re-read the post, and detected some numerical errors (I claimed that 1864 was greater than 1874... nice) and plenty of grammatical errors (I didn't proofread... nice) that will be corrected in the final version that I'll post in the Guides forum when i9 goes live. If anybody sees any of these mistakes, please let me know either with a PM or by replying to this thread. I'm not shy about being wrong 
Thanks again,
Scrap
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Sadly, something a lot of players will have to consider is how spectacularly gimp this build would be if it exemplared underneath the level of its set bonuses.
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I should have addressed this in the guide. Here's my first stab:
Since I recommend slotting level 50 set IOs, most of these bonuses are fragile in the exemplaring case. You can slot the procs at the lowest level possible for the set and give yourself some exemplaring room there. Some of the globals can be slotted at very low levels. The level minimums for the globals are:
Karma KB protection: level 10
Steadfast Resistance KB protection: level 10
Steadfast Resistance res/+3% Def (all) global: level 10
Luck of the Gambler recharge global: level 25
So you can keep your knockback protection all the way down, which is very important: if that were lost as soon as you exemped, you'd be in dire straits without Acrobatics.
The Steadfast Resistance res/def global can safely be dropped to a low level, too, because neither build relies on the resistance enhancement component - it's too low even at level 30 to save us a slot from our Titanium Coating sets without dropping our resistance enhancement below the ED soft cap, so I opted for redundant resistance enhancement. Because of that, you can get this at as low a level as you like, ideally 10.
The Luck of the Gambler globals are at 25, so some exemping will eliminate those even if you can find globals at 25.
And, of course, if you have all level 50 IOs and set IOs, all your set bonuses will vanish as soon as you exemp to any level.
Does this gimp the build?
Well, it takes away those delicious +Regen and +Health passive buffs. But the build still compares favorably. Even taking the set bonuses out of the equation and factoring only the raw enhancement values, both builds are overall better than their i8 equivalents. The PBAoE build loses some ST effectiveness but gains plenty of PBAoE effectiveness. The ST build will lose some utility effectiveness in Consume (because the set bonus recharge won't be bringing Consume's recharge into parity with i8 any more), but overall it will still be more powerful than i8.
Will the builds feel gimped when you exemp? I don't think there can be any question that they will - the set bonuses are too powerful not to notice their absence. But will they be gimped compared to the i8 build exemped to the same level? I don't think so.
I agree that such a big step down is a problem. I see it as a problem with the exemplaring mechanism, not a problem with the build. I realize that will seem like splitting hairs to some people, but nobody needs to build around set bonuses. I will, because I like increasing the upper limits of my power even if I won't always be at those limits.
Scrap
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Good grief. I'm sure that is an amazing analysis but if this is the kind of understanding and analysis and comparison effort I'm going to have to do to make use of the IO system, to be anything than just another random d*****s who slots IO stuff just because it drops, then I just dont want to bother. Thats crazy. I'm sticking to SOs. Maybe in a year or two it will seep into my brain somehow.
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Well, I had a lot of reasons for writing this - proof of concept, demonstration of the benefits of set bonuses to nay-sayers, demonstration that some powersets are left in the cold by the current sets (coming soon), provoking discussion about builds in the community - but one of the reasons is so that people who don't want to think about this stuff can look at a guide and say "looks OK to me, I'll try it."
And once somebody tries it, he's likely to tinker a bit, since his playstyle and assessment of various bonuses is likely to be different from mine. And tinkering is the beginning of understanding.
That's my hope, anyway.
Sapph wrote:
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I note you discount the >20% To-Hit bonus as being "DO" level. When it comes to enhancements, To-Hit is very much not the same as Accuracy. I don't know what the exact conversion rates are, but I do know that 1% of To-Hit buff is worth more than 1% of Accuracy enhancement. Is it possible that, with all the stacking, 21% or 22% of To-Hit buff would actually equal 33% Accuracy?
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and Grinnz wrote:
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You can't compare "DO-level" tohit with an accuracy DO.
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and supported his comment with more information than I knew.
My response: Yes, I drew a distinction between tohit and Accuracy, and then deliberately glossed it over because a) it's been over a year since I've read Arcanaville's treatise on the differences, b) I had it in my head that against even level mobs there was no difference - obviously conflating two of Arcanaville's guides, and c) my guide was already getting pretty long.
But it's an omission, so I need to understand the stuff and make it clear in the next version of the guide. There isn't an easy conversion, clearly, so I'll just draw a line in the sand and use that as a baseline.
Sapph also wrote:
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Of course, the obvious follow up question is: so what if it does? If the gold standard for PvE slotting is 1 Acc, doesn't that now mean 1 IO Acc? Should any To-Hit buff need to equal 40% to be worth slot replacement?
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Well, I mainly used SOs as the unit of comparison because everybody knows what an SO is. But there's another reason: one SO of accuracy is enough for me to feel that a power with a base accuracy of 1 is hitting "enough." This is totally subjective, but to some extent it's a shared assumption: I read more about 1 acc, 3 dam, 1 end, 1 rch slotting than about 2 acc, 3 dam, 1 end slotting, for example. There are certainly people who allocate 2 of six slots to acc in powers that have a default accuracy of 1, but I have it in my mind that those are mostly PvPers or people who routinely fight +4 or higher mobs. Since I'm not one of those people, I'm prepared to present my build as-is and let them tweak as necessary for their purposes. I will say that there's enough accuracy enhancement (not tohit) in most powers in both builds for most purposes.
Great post discussing optimization of ATs via IOs.
In theory , if a player could get access to all these IOs in a timely manner it could be great. I cant wait to see how things will turn out on live servers. On test so far, acquiring Scirocco and Numina IOs is very random and expensive.
KB protection IOs seem fairly numerous and can be bought for cheap at WW these days. This single IO with one extra slot allocated in a Res power let you free yourself from Acrobatics and that is really neat.
Availability of the most wanted IOs on live servers might prevent a lot of players to achieve builds like the one you propose. Healing IOs are quickly bought by all ATs. I foresee prohibitive prices on Live for Numina IOs and that if there are any at WW.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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first post after dev!!!
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Who the hell cares!!??
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go [censored] yourself
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first post after dev!!!
[/ QUOTE ]I really, really wish this kind of fad would just go away.
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go [censored] yourself as well
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first post after dev!!!
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First person to report the first person after a dev!
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Currently listening to Queen's Live at Wimbley Stadium
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and for the third and final time as of now...
go [censored] yourself thrice
Excellent writeup!
And should I comment that I'm the first person to post after a poster that will definitely be wiped and possibly banned?
This thread should be getting shorter, shortly.
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Excellent write-up, Scrap! This info will be quite valuable to my dark/fire brute for sure; obviously some things will need to be changed because of the different primary (with its different form of +to-hit buff, ability to steal end for health, fear and -to-hits, and such) but it's still given me some fascinating ideas. Thanks for all of your hard work!
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So yeah, I had a point I thought valid, but realized it wasn't when I reread your builds.
Damn well done, man! And I thought I was a build-[censored].
Don't quote me on this, but there's Kheldian IO thread stating you can get the first Knockback Protection IO at level 10. Long's it's not unique, you might actually be able to avoid Acrobatics.
(Nevermind, someone already listed em! Though the thing to note is the two Knockback IOs don't add much besides that. You'd lose a bit of resistance but gain a free power choice and some +recovery back.)
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Once crazy nutty thing your might think about is using Temperature Protection. Yeah granted it's passive powers and kind redundent, but it's also a Damage Resistance power. Any IO's slotted are always active. A KB Protection and Steadfast Protection's Unique +DEF are good choice to slot into it. And you would get the first set bonus.
Great guide, Scrap - a must read, IMO, whether you play tankers or not.
I'd give you a Guide Guru title if I could. 
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This stuff seems awfuly complicated. How is a casual gamer going to be able to understand this stuff? Also, With all these choices we have to make, could we please get in-game stats of our powers so we can make decisions based on more than just our Enhancement bonuses. Not everyone knows what the base stats are and it would be so nice to have it all totalled up in game to see where we are wasting slots.
I agree base percentages of powers should be available in game. It would be nice to see at a glance that when you enhance 57% of Damage Resistance power you are actually enhancing 57% of lets say 40% Base resistance. Just highlighting the Base number in the SO enhancing screen would do it.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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I think that question is going to be extra complex simply because, in order to be exemp'ed down, there pretty much has to be another player with you - one that very well might cover for any lost bonus sets.
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That's completely untrue. You are exemplared any time you enter a PvP zone under your level.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I note you discount the >20% To-Hit bonus as being "DO" level. When it comes to enhancements, To-Hit is very much not the same as Accuracy. I don't know what the exact conversion rates are, but I do know that 1% of To-Hit buff is worth more than 1% of Accuracy enhancement. Is it possible that, with all the stacking, 21% or 22% of To-Hit buff would actually equal 33% Accuracy?
Of course, the obvious follow up question is: so what if it does? If the gold standard for PvE slotting is 1 Acc, doesn't that now mean 1 IO Acc? Should any To-Hit buff need to equal 40% to be worth slot replacement?