[ QUOTE ]
"The devs have said to me directly, that they want to maintain a clear distinction between builds... I still can't see what [they] can do to change things without removing those distinctions." -- EvilGeko
This sounds interesting, EG, but you're speaking in generalities. Can you offer some specific examples?
[/ QUOTE ]
Specific examples I've seen in PMs:
1. SR will never get a heal...ever. Arcana's gotten this too.
2. We know MoG sucks, but we don't want everyone to be the same.
3. Geko said on the forums long ago that Blaster animations would not be balanced because then they might as well just make everything the same with different colors.
There are other examples if I looked through my PMs, but the hostility of these devs towards things that they perceive as removing distinctions has been scary. That said I'm hopeful because of recent efforts to normalize certain classes of powers (Burn, Blaster Superior damage blasts, etc.)
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Positron Approves This Thread.
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
kek pvp
[/ QUOTE ]
kek CoH
kek CoH PvP
[ QUOTE ]
If this is true, then we should pressume that PvP is dead to the Devs?...... right?
[/ QUOTE ]
This is why Hells Army have left this game to find greenier pastures and we have found them... WoW!! isn't that amazing
We are not well known on Test but very well known on are home server and had over 20 Loyal PvP'ers and we most likely won't be coming back till some impovements are done to PvP
-res
traitor! =P
EvilGeko,
I must agree with the Devs that certain distinctions ought not be removed. And mind before you leap, I have one of Virtue's oldest BS/SRs.
Creativity, subtle stat point tinkering, there's always a way... where there's a will. Anyway, getting back to your earlier post:
"Most balance posts in the PvP forum tend to point to the favored sets and say either: 1) Make all sets like them; or 2) Nerf them so they are like everyone else."
So, I would counter 1) Creatively augment ailing sets and 2) Creatively degrade excelling sets until a medium is reached. I certainly don't want everything to be the same but I do want every player to have as close to an equal chance as possible.
Guys, the BIGGEST problem with PvP is....
1. The Arenas. Where, if you can find the patch notes, over 179 changes were made to powers in order to make PvPing a reality. Problem is, the DEVS changed how powers operate in order to make every AT a solo possible PvP hero, and flame me if you want, but Defenders and Controllers are support ATs as designed in the original game. Heck the DEVs have had to change the description of those 2 ATs to fit the games current state. Tell me that's not putting the cart before the horse. In "BALANCING" the ATs the DEVs made PvP a "BUILD ONLY" activity.
Now think about what I just said. IF the DEVs had left the original game system in place, Controllers would have held Tanks and Scrappers 1st or 2nd hit. Their damage would have been minimal at best, but they would be a great teammate for PvP. Defenders, Clear Mind on the Tank/Scrapper and off you go. Scrappers and Tanks need the other ATs to PvP, so nothing is UBER, there are no "builds" because the powers and teams self balance. Think of an all Stalker team in PvP. Well 2 or 3 controllers with Cinders could Hold the entire team. Damage would be so low that the Stalkers would just be annoyed.
Blasters, one shot would have made ANY AT run for cover. Scrappers, just let them get close. Tanks require several players to take down one, but as such, soloing a Tank in PvP is suicide due to Blaster 2-3 shot kill potential and then the controllers just leave me standing waiting for someone to come and finish me off.
The DEVs have been playing this "balance" game since Issue 4. Balancing the ATs was the biggest BAD MOVE the DEVs ever did. They took all of the fun of figuring out PvP and the game for every AT and made us turn to a certain sector of the community and ask, Empathy or Kin...Scrapper??? DM/DA OK? How do I build my Brute?
After all is said and done, a roll back to the Issue 3 power effects would make PvP more fun and challenging than ever. People could PvP with any build because they would find something they could add to a team, no one would be UBER.
Yep, you guys haven't seen the last of the "balancing act" because the initial implementation was flawed in theory.
Them's the facts as I see it, and of course the flaming will start, but I ask those of you who have been playing since beta/release like me, were the AT changes of Issue 4 needed or were they just the quickest and easiest way for the DEVs to make it happen...After all, I remember all the "my controller/defender can't PvP a Scrapper/Tank". Hello...They were NEVER originally intended too. They were a support class in the beginning and people played them, why the DEVs thought they needed to make everyone equal is beyond me.
BALANCE IS A NERF
Liberty Server
@Energy Aura and @Ill Conceived on Global
Han Solo: [laughs] Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good BLASTER at your side, kid.
[ QUOTE ]
Now think about what I just said. IF the DEVs had left the original game system in place, Controllers would have held Tanks and Scrappers 1st or 2nd hit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm... they nerfed Scrapper and Tanker mez protection, they didn't nerf the mez magnitudes of Controllers.
For example Integration used to be, at level 16, a MAG 15 protection to the big four mezzes. Controllers would have had to stack 5 mezzes or 4 critical mezzes to defeat that while at the same time dealing with the resistance that made those holds wear off quicker.
[ QUOTE ]
After all is said and done, a roll back to the Issue 3 power effects would make PvP more fun and challenging than ever. People could PvP with any build because they would find something they could add to a team, no one would be UBER.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did the calculations and posted them to the Arena boards the first day those forums came into existence: Regen was not killable by ANY character in Issue 3. Think about that for a second. NO AT, including other Scrappers, could kill a Regen with Issue 3 numbers. It just wasn't possible.
At Issue 3 numbers, the meleers would run over the squishies.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Energy Aura..your right about only 1 thing in your post...the Devs dont know how to balance anything..let alone this game.
Outside of that your head is in the clouds.
[ QUOTE ]
At Issue 3 numbers, the meleers would run over the squishies.
[/ QUOTE ]
My Point EXACTLY...
The game was not designed for Controllers and Defenders to be front line damage dealers, and the original game manual said so. It was only after the DEVs realized that in PvP not all heroes are created equal did they start this "balancing act".
Regen itself might have been overpowered at release, but that was an AT balance issue within the scrapper AT. PvP should NEVER have been a reason to retool any AT, let alone all of them. Not only did we all have to respec because of PvP changes, but some powers became obsolete as a result.
And let's not even start talking about the fact that the changes effected PvE as well. Making the players with no intentions to ever PvP respec just to play PvE.
No denying, the DEVs implementation of power change for PvP are the reason why we are in the "This build is effective PvP and this one isn't; These powers are good, these aren't" mode and discussion.
How many PvPers have a dual build and not powers that are PvP specific? I bet not many. I myself have no reason for Assault and Tactics except PvP. Focused Accuracy takes care of my needs in PvE. Would I like to have 2 other powers? Sure, but loose my edge in PvP as a result no thank you.
BALANCE IS A NERF
Liberty Server
@Energy Aura and @Ill Conceived on Global
Han Solo: [laughs] Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good BLASTER at your side, kid.
[ QUOTE ]
Most balance posts in the PvP forum tend to point to the favored sets and say either: 1) Make all sets like them; or 2) Nerf them so they are like everyone else.
The problem with that is that many of these sets were specifically created with the advantages they have because they aren't good at other things. So to fix this would require that we increase the homogeniety in the play experience. This is something that the developers really don't want to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not necessarily true, it just happens to be true for most trivial balance suggestions.
Here's a set of possible principles you could design a "balanced" PvP system around. They are neither necessary nor sufficient on their own, but they directly address many problems some players believe are intractible.
1. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive weakness, such that possession of the offensive ability to exploit that weakness offers a significant, material advantage to the possessor, verses that power set.
2. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive strength, such that anything that offensively focuses on that strength will be at a material disadvantage verses that set.
3. Make sure its non-trivial to buy your way out of your weakness.
4. Make sure that for every power set, one of two things is true:
4a. The set contains the offensive means to exploit its own weakness
or
4b. The set offensively focuses on its own strength
This is possible to do with tremendous diversity, but it creates two balancing mechanisms automatically.
1. If there exists a "most powerful" defensive set, then the more common it became in PvP, the more often it would be forced to either face off against other things that possessed its specific weakness, or would be forced to attack things it couldn't defeat. It becomes self-annihilating for everyone to build identically, and it would then be impossible for a "most powerful" build to actually be popular: popularity would automatically equate to relative weakness.
2. Casual PvPers might be disadvantaged by not leveraging their builds as well as hardcore PvPers, but its much less likely that they would be penalized for choosing "weak" PvP combinations.
This is not perfectly straightforward to do in CoH, because every AT has multiple powers sets, which complicates things. But that doesn't specifically invalidate the principle. Take the simple case of a game with nothing but regen scrappers with nothing but +regen, SR scrappers with nothing but +defense, and Invuln scrappers with nothing but +resistance. If regen scrappers were the only ones given high -regen, SR scrappers were the only ones with +tohit, and Invuln scrappers were the only ones with unresistable damage, there would be no "best secondary" if they were reasonably well balanced in terms of average damage mitigation. It suggests, as a proof of concept, that PvP balance does not mandatorally require homogeneity.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
Energy Aura..your right about only 1 thing in your post...the Devs dont know how to balance anything..let alone this game.
Outside of that your head is in the clouds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Something like that.
I just want unsupressed Fly. I hate having to go at sub-Sprint speeds every time I attack. Its already as slow as hell. Do we really need another reason not to take it?
And Unresistable effects suck. Either distribute them more evenly, or not at all.
Theres other balance stuff, but its all been said before. This is just my take on it.
Arcanaville? Yay! I'm your fan and remember your contribution to fixing SR. If I could I'd put you in charge of The Balance Vision.
The system you propose appears sound, but it would also entail a complete rebuild of CoH, essentially CoH Mark II. Do you consider the current system hopeless?
"Make sure every power set has a specific defensive weakness..."
...and -only- that weakness. I made a villain Mind/Psi based on the Invul description "doesn't work against psi." This led me to believe psi would be the spoiler villain to take down all those Superman and Hulk clones.
Sadly, Invul is so overshadowed by Regen, Ice Armor and Electric Armor that I never see Invul in PvP, and none of those powersets fear psi. So while psi works it's not what I hoped. And dominators... well.... :: sigh! ::
"Take the simple case of a game with nothing but regen scrappers with nothing but +regen, SR scrappers with nothing but +defense, and Invuln scrappers with nothing but +resistance."
So much depends upon the attacking set. If the attacker's damage vastly exceeds your HP, all the regen-rate in the world won't help you. Give someone a massive accuracy increase, however briefly, and SR's value vanishes. But you know all this.
"I just want unsuppressed Fly. I hate having to go at sub-Sprint speeds every time I attack." Cold_Heritage
Have you considered three-slotting Hover for speed? Suppression drops you to hover speed, but if that's slotted you'll notice the suppression much less.
[ QUOTE ]
The system you propose appears sound, but it would also entail a complete rebuild of CoH, essentially CoH Mark II. Do you consider the current system hopeless?
[/ QUOTE ]
Offered only as direct counterexample to the belief that a balanced PvP system is impossible unless homogenous. Actually, were I to design one myself, it would be diversity itself that would assure PvP balance, and that's just one element of how that might work.
Its not impossible. Its not even really all that difficult in principle.
Do I think the current system is hopeless? Well, that would depend on what you mean by "the current system." It isn't balanced now, so hoping it will be tomorrow isn't going to generate any results. The only influence players have on a system is to amplify imbalances over time. That's what players of games ultimately do. So on its own, it can only really get worse.
But that doesn't mean it couldn't evolve into something much more balanced. The Invention System was a golden opportunity to do so, but as it stands now, while it seems to offer certain interesting improvements in areas that might improve balance, overall it tends to give those who have, more. My impression of the Inventions currently available in the Invention System says, for example, that Ice/Energy blasters aren't going to be hurting when it comes to leveraging IOs, and neither are Regen scrappers. And even though the devs all but admit publicly that tohit buffs are problematic for defense sets in PvP, the IO system is *loaded* with tohit buffs all over the place. Today, most PvPers have tohit buffs. In I9, if you don't at least have perma-rage's tohit buff permanently plastered on you, you just aren't trying hard enough. That's not good for defense sets.
It *could* get better. In a way, the Invention System is a theoretical way to introduce very radical changes to the game, without radically changing the game. Look at how it tosses certain cherished dogmas aside: blasters are dogmatically barred from getting mez protection or resistance in general, but they can now invent it in some cases. Change is possible, if difficult and not a little circuitous.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
1. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive weakness, such that possession of the offensive ability to exploit that weakness offers a significant, material advantage to the possessor, verses that power set.
2. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive strength, such that anything that offensively focuses on that strength will be at a material disadvantage verses that set.
3. Make sure its non-trivial to buy your way out of your weakness.
4. Make sure that for every power set, one of two things is true:
4a. The set contains the offensive means to exploit its own weakness
or
4b. The set offensively focuses on its own strength
[/ QUOTE ]
But that does increase homogeniety. If everyone adheres to the formula then everyone is more similar.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The system you propose appears sound, but it would also entail a complete rebuild of CoH, essentially CoH Mark II. Do you consider the current system hopeless?
[/ QUOTE ]
Offered only as direct counterexample to the belief that a balanced PvP system is impossible unless homogenous. Actually, were I to design one myself, it would be diversity itself that would assure PvP balance, and that's just one element of how that might work.
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't say you had to make everyone homogeneous, I said you have to increase the homogeniety of the play experience. Those are not the same concept.
[ QUOTE ]
So to fix this would require that we increase the homogeniety in the play experience.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I said, the only way to balance PvP is to enforce some level of sameness. Hell that's all balance is really. Enforcing some roughly equivalent level of damage or mitigation. You just like arguing against things I say. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive weakness, such that possession of the offensive ability to exploit that weakness offers a significant, material advantage to the possessor, verses that power set.
2. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive strength, such that anything that offensively focuses on that strength will be at a material disadvantage verses that set.
3. Make sure its non-trivial to buy your way out of your weakness.
4. Make sure that for every power set, one of two things is true:
4a. The set contains the offensive means to exploit its own weakness
or
4b. The set offensively focuses on its own strength
[/ QUOTE ]
But that does increase homogeniety. If everyone adheres to the formula then everyone is more similar.
[/ QUOTE ]
What formula are you talking about? The quote above describes a design methodology for power sets, not builds. Saying that enforces homogeneity is like saying that the current system enforces homogeneity because everyone is currently forced to be one of twelve archetypes.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive weakness, such that possession of the offensive ability to exploit that weakness offers a significant, material advantage to the possessor, verses that power set.
2. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive strength, such that anything that offensively focuses on that strength will be at a material disadvantage verses that set.
3. Make sure its non-trivial to buy your way out of your weakness.
4. Make sure that for every power set, one of two things is true:
4a. The set contains the offensive means to exploit its own weakness
or
4b. The set offensively focuses on its own strength
[/ QUOTE ]
But that does increase homogeniety. If everyone adheres to the formula then everyone is more similar.
[/ QUOTE ]
What formula are you talking about? The quote above describes a design methodology for power sets, not builds. Saying that enforces homogeneity is like saying that the current system enforces homogeneity because everyone is currently forced to be one of twelve archetypes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Geko and Arcana are sitting in a tree
a r g u i n g
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive weakness, such that possession of the offensive ability to exploit that weakness offers a significant, material advantage to the possessor, verses that power set.
2. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive strength, such that anything that offensively focuses on that strength will be at a material disadvantage verses that set.
3. Make sure its non-trivial to buy your way out of your weakness.
4. Make sure that for every power set, one of two things is true:
4a. The set contains the offensive means to exploit its own weakness
or
4b. The set offensively focuses on its own strength
[/ QUOTE ]
But that does increase homogeniety. If everyone adheres to the formula then everyone is more similar.
[/ QUOTE ]
What formula are you talking about? The quote above describes a design methodology for power sets, not builds. Saying that enforces homogeneity is like saying that the current system enforces homogeneity because everyone is currently forced to be one of twelve archetypes.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it's not. And if your design methodology does what it suggests then homogeniety will be increased because similarity will be increased. That's what the word means.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive weakness, such that possession of the offensive ability to exploit that weakness offers a significant, material advantage to the possessor, verses that power set.
2. Make sure every power set has a specific defensive strength, such that anything that offensively focuses on that strength will be at a material disadvantage verses that set.
3. Make sure its non-trivial to buy your way out of your weakness.
4. Make sure that for every power set, one of two things is true:
4a. The set contains the offensive means to exploit its own weakness
or
4b. The set offensively focuses on its own strength
[/ QUOTE ]
But that does increase homogeniety. If everyone adheres to the formula then everyone is more similar.
[/ QUOTE ]
What formula are you talking about? The quote above describes a design methodology for power sets, not builds. Saying that enforces homogeneity is like saying that the current system enforces homogeneity because everyone is currently forced to be one of twelve archetypes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Geko and Arcana are sitting in a tree
a r g u i n g
[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously. I know she loves the sight my posts, but I keep telling her, I'm married. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
As I said, the only way to balance PvP is to enforce some level of sameness. Hell that's all balance is really. Enforcing some roughly equivalent level of damage or mitigation. You just like arguing against things I say.
[/ QUOTE ]
Current CoX attack powers:
10 damage, 1 sec activation, 8 second recharge.
10 damage, 2 sec activation, 8 second recharge.
One possible change:
10 damage, 1 sec activation, 8 second recharge.
20 damage, 2 sec activation, 16 second recharge.
I know the devs look at that and see "Golly, now everything's the same." I don't see it. I'd sure like to play an Energy Blaster instead of an Ice Blaster, though.
[ QUOTE ]
Most balance posts in the PvP forum tend to point to the favored sets and say either: 1) Make all sets like them; or 2) Nerf them so they are like everyone else.
The problem with that is that many of these sets were specifically created with the advantages they have because they aren't good at other things. So to fix this would require that we increase the homogeniety in the play experience. This is something that the developers really don't want to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is Energy Melee not good at? - ridiculously high damage, rarely resisted dmg type, insane amounts of stuns which are less resisted than many other side effects.
What is ice blast not good at? - high dmg crazy fast attacks, with slows that are rarely resisted and fatal when stacked
What is spines not good at? - crazy range, slows that are rarely resisted and fatal when stacked
The problem with these sets is they have powers for which there is no check or balance. The simple solution outside of nerfing said powers is to provide players a way to check the effects that make the powers overly powerful. Make stun resist and slow resist powers available to players via new pool powers. Energy melee simply needs a nerfing, I think anyone who is being honest and neutral that knows anything about game balance would admit this (and I have 3 toons with energy melee and love it for obvious reasons...).
Freakshow...
Tanks...
Arms...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Positron Approves This Thread.
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
kek pvp