Since Cryptic started working for marvel and microsoft will COH & COV suffer? And if they will work on both would they favor one over the other for business reasons?
Et_tu_Brute, can you clarify the last time you played the game seriously? I think you have many valid points, but CoX has changed a lot in the last few years. My first blaster is still languishing in limbo from debt he accumulated 2 years ago, but none of my current characters have any issues with it whatsoever. This is mainly due to changes in the game system. A lower debt cap and 1/2 debt in missions have made the game much more forgiving. Not to mention Newspaper / Scanner missions which you can complete in a few minutes that remove about as much debt as dying gives you.
[ QUOTE ]
Can I have some of what you're smoking? CoH is hard in high levels, never getting out of debt? Let me guess, you play a blaster on invincible that solos all the time?
CoX is way easier than WoW.
[/ QUOTE ]I have to agree with Stoney here, after I read what Et_tu_Brute said a few more times over, I have to say that he (Et_tu_Brute) is more hung-up on the 'golden age' of CoX than I am.
Although Stoney, Bot does play an NRG/NRG blaster and he rarely goes into debt, or so far as I know.
Global - @Proton Sentinel
Jack Devon Crab Spider VEAT; Virtue
Mordigen Earth/Storm on Liberty and Virtue
Technological Terror Bots/FF; Liberty.
50s: Zul Vakirol Thugs/Poison; Virtue. Kiyujin Katana/SR
He's right about one thing: The quickest way to tick off the entire player base is nerfing. Better to improve everything else than nerf anything.
(based largely on my experiance with EVE where the nerf bat came out for almost every update)
[ QUOTE ]
He's right about one thing: The quickest way to tick off the entire player base is nerfing. Better to improve everything else than nerf anything.
(based largely on my experiance with EVE where the nerf bat came out for almost every update)
[/ QUOTE ]Check my sig and a couple of the most recent posts on the Balance Vision thread, EVE makes a brief appearence in it!
Global - @Proton Sentinel
Jack Devon Crab Spider VEAT; Virtue
Mordigen Earth/Storm on Liberty and Virtue
Technological Terror Bots/FF; Liberty.
50s: Zul Vakirol Thugs/Poison; Virtue. Kiyujin Katana/SR
Already saw 'em, mate
[ QUOTE ]
Already saw 'em, mate
[/ QUOTE ]Ah ok, I think you posted there too.
Global - @Proton Sentinel
Jack Devon Crab Spider VEAT; Virtue
Mordigen Earth/Storm on Liberty and Virtue
Technological Terror Bots/FF; Liberty.
50s: Zul Vakirol Thugs/Poison; Virtue. Kiyujin Katana/SR
[ QUOTE ]
Hi everyone,
This is my PLEASE SAVE CITY OF HEROES reply!
Seems to me that this thread gets down to the point of why there was a mass exodus from City of Heroes in the first place. Personally, I love superheroes/villians. The graphics and the game design for COH/COV is still (in mid 2007) vastly superior to everything - including World of Warcraft. All my friends and associates agree. So why did they all quit playing COH?
Being in the computer programming and games business, I can tell you why if you want to know. This is not a COH bashing post... I wouldn't waste my time with that. I would prefer to be designing or playing a game right now. However, I really love the idea of COH and I feel VERY strongly that it should be a success ("COH 2 - A New Beginning"). I'll openly admit that I jumped to World of Warcraft and left COH behind. What's funny is we still talk about City of Heroes/Villians while we play WOW. After playing both games for several years and playing with literally hundreds of people, I've collected an awful lot of feedback on what works and what doesn't. Hey - it's my job to learn what works in computer gaming. Any ways, if any one is interested, here's the results we've compiled over several years.
1) WOW is by far the gold standard, as everyone should know
2) WOW allows you to have 25 quests active, all of which can be cancelled at any time. Some of the negative feedback was the 3 quest limit in COH and not being able to cancel it. (returning to contact to cancel 1 quest is not useful based on discussions).
3) WOW encourages you to push the limit as a player. We are supposed to be heroes who strive to do impossible things. So why does COH punish failure with XP debt and WOW does not? Good question. WOW simply charges you an extremely affordable amount of money to repair your items. COH, not having equipment, can't do this... or can they? Actually, you can. Simply charge a small amount of fame when the player gets killed. That makes perfect sense. Your fame should go down if you are defeated - not your XP. This makes a whole lot more sense to me.
4) Nerfing. What can I say about it. Nothing destroys client-consumer relationships faster than Nerfing. Nothing. This is the biggest no-no in the industry. City of Heroes is often called City of Nerfs - said with both parts affection and hatred. Your long term customers for online gaming consist primarily of power users who work on their characters for years. Want to drive someone away? Nerf their class. This is by far the biggest destructive factor. Around 90% of the people I asked in WOW said that this was the primary reason they left COH. Coming in a close 2nd was XP debt.
5) City of Heroes, simply put, was too hard at higher levels. This came up because people could never get out of XP debt
and, quite honestly, the game DOES get too hard. From a design point of view, I am not sure it makes sense to force people to team when they get higher level. There's something to be said about that lone hero - that urban legend.
I honestly hope some of this helps. I need to get back to work. Also, I could easily write a whole book on theories, but I'm not doing that unless I can find people who actually listen! (this is where you say, 'sorry, what'd you say'? 
I am ALWAYS interested in hearing thoughts, feedback, suggestions, or just plain funny things at my personal email. I hope to see people online in City of Heroes / City of Villains.
_____________________________________
COH/COV toons on Infinity server:
Nuclear Nurse (COH global@Nuclear Nurse)
Dark Reckoning (COH)
Cthulhu's Madness (COH)
Call of Cthulhu (COV)
Fist of Cthulhu (COV)
... and a whole lot more.
WOW on Uther server
(Hardly ever log on, play COH instead)
Sif (70 Warlock)
Jacynth (70 Hunter)
mdkrieter@hotmail.com
_________________________
"I hear you've been missing work a lot lately."
"Well, I wouldn't say I've been missing it Bob."
[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly I apologise for quoteing such a long piece of work, but I have to comment on a few things...
Firstly, this has little to do if anything to the OP's post. The post was adressed to the potential issues with balance and the current state of PVP , not the game from a marketing standpoint , though admitedly you do have some somewhat interesting comments to make
Secondly... CoX is far easier in its high level gameplay then WoW. Sometimes I find myself just dozing off fighting anyone short of the Vanguard (( ouch they hurt)) but this is largly due to alot of experence with the game, and knowing people equaly as experenced.
Does CoX need saving? I dont know, unfortuantly I have no idea what the numbers of suscribers look like at this point. What do i hope for in CoX? I hope they keep it alive for a year or two more, then announce city of heros 2, announce that they will adress all of these potential issues before hand and deliver a product that could poentaily blow WoW's current (( and im sure record setting)) numbers out of the water.
Anywho I probly shouldnt but i felt i had to respond to this, good day everyone
Whoa... necrothread! Thought someone locked this ages ago.
I posted this back in February, folks. The devs let me know they were paying attention. I'm obviously still here, mission accomplished, the end.
For my part, with IOs and the passing of eight months I've given up on CoH PvP entirely. You all have worthwhile things to say but I'm not sure why you're saying 'em here. Feel free, I guess.
I eagerly await the Marvel game as it will hopefully not mirror the inherent weaknesses of CoH. This is their chance to start fresh, with years of experience behind them. That's another way to execute "iterative game design."
Clearly you haven't been paying attention to your own thread, for shame.
By the way, CoH is not all about PVP, there are numerous other things to do in it.
Global - @Proton Sentinel
Jack Devon Crab Spider VEAT; Virtue
Mordigen Earth/Storm on Liberty and Virtue
Technological Terror Bots/FF; Liberty.
50s: Zul Vakirol Thugs/Poison; Virtue. Kiyujin Katana/SR
For shame? I'm done here.
"Please consider this thread locked and thank you all." -- Colette, April 15th, 2007. (Page 11.)
Yeah well, you might be done here with PVP, but you don't speak for everyone. We'll consider it locked when situations arise.
Global - @Proton Sentinel
Jack Devon Crab Spider VEAT; Virtue
Mordigen Earth/Storm on Liberty and Virtue
Technological Terror Bots/FF; Liberty.
50s: Zul Vakirol Thugs/Poison; Virtue. Kiyujin Katana/SR
[ QUOTE ]
3) WOW encourages you to push the limit as a player. We are supposed to be heroes who strive to do impossible things. So why does COH punish failure with XP debt and WOW does not? Good question. WOW simply charges you an extremely affordable amount of money to repair your items. COH, not having equipment, can't do this... or can they? Actually, you can. Simply charge a small amount of fame when the player gets killed. That makes perfect sense. Your fame should go down if you are defeated - not your XP. This makes a whole lot more sense to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
How can someone be so utterly lost?
Violence has its own economy. Therefore, be thoughtful and precise in your investment.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3) WOW encourages you to push the limit as a player. We are supposed to be heroes who strive to do impossible things. So why does COH punish failure with XP debt and WOW does not? Good question. WOW simply charges you an extremely affordable amount of money to repair your items. COH, not having equipment, can't do this... or can they? Actually, you can. Simply charge a small amount of fame when the player gets killed. That makes perfect sense. Your fame should go down if you are defeated - not your XP. This makes a whole lot more sense to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
How can someone be so utterly lost?
[/ QUOTE ]I have to agree with you man. I'd think that even when being defeated and getting back up again and pushing onward and not letting defeat get you down would make your more Influential or Infamous (when you look at the currency on both sides). Actually, I think that's how it works because when you go into debt, you payoff your debt at a rate of 1/2 debt and 1/2 exp and get your normal infamy/influence rate, indicating that you're more influential/infamous because your character is showing that even if they visit the hospital, it ain't gonna stop them.
Plus, the other guy's suggestion would hurt new players, and with how outdated the manual and power descriptions are when selecting them, I think they get hurt enough as it is.
Global - @Proton Sentinel
Jack Devon Crab Spider VEAT; Virtue
Mordigen Earth/Storm on Liberty and Virtue
Technological Terror Bots/FF; Liberty.
50s: Zul Vakirol Thugs/Poison; Virtue. Kiyujin Katana/SR
I had a question about travel powers. I've noted that flight got some really good upgrades: End reduction and flight positions. I'm here to ask for some attention to Super Speed. It is the most unused of the The travel powers because of the difficulty on all terrains. I had an idea about that. How about when you get so hight a level with it or as a bonus to 50's you get the ability to run across water ala some of the speedsters of our favorite comics. I think hydroplaning on water is a super speed tradition and was wondering if any of my fellow heroes thought it might be a great idea for a power upgrade or change for a future issue. Anyone?
[ QUOTE ]
I had a question about travel powers. I've noted that flight got some really good upgrades: End reduction and flight positions. I'm here to ask for some attention to Super Speed. It is the most unused of the The travel powers because of the difficulty on all terrains. I had an idea about that. How about when you get so hight a level with it or as a bonus to 50's you get the ability to run across water ala some of the speedsters of our favorite comics. I think hydroplaning on water is a super speed tradition and was wondering if any of my fellow heroes thought it might be a great idea for a power upgrade or change for a future issue. Anyone?
[/ QUOTE ]
The reason you won't see running over water is because the game doesn't keep track of the surface of the water. It basically flags an area as being in swim-depth water or shallow water. The only way to work around this, AFAIK, would be to make it so that while SS is on, all water is treated as shallow water, and allow you to run in it.
Also, SS already has one of the most useful side effects - the stealth in PvE.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm here to ask for some attention to Super Speed. It is the most unused of the The travel powers because of the difficulty on all terrains.
[/ QUOTE ]
you are seriously mistaken, SS is one of the most used travel powers in the game. I don't know where you got your info from but you might want to check it again.
Bonnie and her bunny
Arc ID: 59406
The Trash Came Back
Arc ID: 350303
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm here to ask for some attention to Super Speed. It is the most unused of the The travel powers because of the difficulty on all terrains.
[/ QUOTE ]
you are seriously mistaken, SS is one of the most used travel powers in the game. I don't know where you got your info from but you might want to check it again.
[/ QUOTE ]He might be referring to lack of inherent vertical movement associated with SS and how some areas have some ups and downs to them terrain wise. Let's look at the old and new faultline for example.
Global - @Proton Sentinel
Jack Devon Crab Spider VEAT; Virtue
Mordigen Earth/Storm on Liberty and Virtue
Technological Terror Bots/FF; Liberty.
50s: Zul Vakirol Thugs/Poison; Virtue. Kiyujin Katana/SR
[ QUOTE ]
Hi everyone,
This is my PLEASE SAVE CITY OF HEROES reply!
Seems to me that this thread gets down to the point of why there was a mass exodus from City of Heroes in the first place. Personally, I love superheroes/villians. The graphics and the game design for COH/COV is still (in mid 2007) vastly superior to everything - including World of Warcraft. All my friends and associates agree. So why did they all quit playing COH?
Being in the computer programming and games business, I can tell you why if you want to know. This is not a COH bashing post... I wouldn't waste my time with that. I would prefer to be designing or playing a game right now. However, I really love the idea of COH and I feel VERY strongly that it should be a success ("COH 2 - A New Beginning"). I'll openly admit that I jumped to World of Warcraft and left COH behind. What's funny is we still talk about City of Heroes/Villians while we play WOW. After playing both games for several years and playing with literally hundreds of people, I've collected an awful lot of feedback on what works and what doesn't. Hey - it's my job to learn what works in computer gaming. Any ways, if any one is interested, here's the results we've compiled over several years.
1) WOW is by far the gold standard, as everyone should know
2) WOW allows you to have 25 quests active, all of which can be cancelled at any time. Some of the negative feedback was the 3 quest limit in COH and not being able to cancel it. (returning to contact to cancel 1 quest is not useful based on discussions).
3) WOW encourages you to push the limit as a player. We are supposed to be heroes who strive to do impossible things. So why does COH punish failure with XP debt and WOW does not? Good question. WOW simply charges you an extremely affordable amount of money to repair your items. COH, not having equipment, can't do this... or can they? Actually, you can. Simply charge a small amount of fame when the player gets killed. That makes perfect sense. Your fame should go down if you are defeated - not your XP. This makes a whole lot more sense to me.
4) Nerfing. What can I say about it. Nothing destroys client-consumer relationships faster than Nerfing. Nothing. This is the biggest no-no in the industry. City of Heroes is often called City of Nerfs - said with both parts affection and hatred. Your long term customers for online gaming consist primarily of power users who work on their characters for years. Want to drive someone away? Nerf their class. This is by far the biggest destructive factor. Around 90% of the people I asked in WOW said that this was the primary reason they left COH. Coming in a close 2nd was XP debt.
5) City of Heroes, simply put, was too hard at higher levels. This came up because people could never get out of XP debt
and, quite honestly, the game DOES get too hard. From a design point of view, I am not sure it makes sense to force people to team when they get higher level. There's something to be said about that lone hero - that urban legend.
I honestly hope some of this helps. I need to get back to work. Also, I could easily write a whole book on theories, but I'm not doing that unless I can find people who actually listen! (this is where you say, 'sorry, what'd you say'?
I am ALWAYS interested in hearing thoughts, feedback, suggestions, or just plain funny things at my personal email. I hope to see people online in City of Heroes / City of Villains.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to admit you have some intresting ideas. But you also have some things i REALLY want to comment on. Ill pretty much go by how you numbered them.
1) Gold Standard makes it sound perfect. Nothing is perfect (ESPECIALLY WoW), but it sure as hell has a big player base...
2) I will agree that I wouldnt mind being able to have more than 3 missions open at once. But I will comment on the cancel thing. Think about if they put that in. First of all, the badges from missions would be to easy to get. Just keep going to a contact, getting a mission, and canceling it until you are finally at the badge mission. There would be no point in going to a contact. Also, if you did that, you could just start a story arc, cancel all the mishs in it, and collect the Story Arc bonus for the last mish. Being able to freely cancel mishs would totally undermine alot of the systems the devs set up.
3) I will ignore the thing about WoW pushing the limit (trust me you dont want to get me started on WoW), but I WILL comment on the XP Debt thing. Say they put that into the game. Ok, well I just made a new level one, i wandered into Peregrine and get sniped by some dude. Ok, well now im screwed, and because of your system, im stuck since I have no money. Theres also a problem even when you get to the more reasonable levels. For this example, ill use my stalker. Its a mission to face the sea witch (an Elite Boss), and my squishy stalker would get owned in 2 hits. With the "money instead of debt" system, its no problem to kill her. Just go over, Assassins her, get killed, go back, Assassins, get killed, and repeat until she finally dies. All i've lost is a little money and I got to easily kill the Sea Witch. Theres no challenge AT ALL. No use of brain cells, no need for inspirs. Hell no need for enhancing if all you have to do is get killed and come back. By using the current Debt system they have now, they can discourage dieing and acting like a Kamikaze. Also, I dont agree the WoW isnt punishing you for dieing. Paying ANYTHING like that in WoW is bad. Money has a much higher value in WoW than in CoH, the latter not putting much stress on wasting time on "The Grind"
4) I agree that Nerfs are bad. But another bad thing is having 1 set of powers completely own all the others. Ok so you say "Forget Nerfing, just make all the other sets stronger". Well theres a problem with that too, the villains are still the same. Well thats an easy fix, make them stronger to. Now what have you effectively done? Youve made EVERYTHING in the game stronger except this set, just a roundabout way of nerfing it. Only difference is this is a LOT more work.
5) Im just going to have to laugh at this one. I dont think CoH is hard at ANY levels. Hell if anything, I think that CoH gets EASIER at higher levels. You cant say that you have difficulties soloing on Heroic at level 44. If you do, then im sorry to say (and im gonna sound like a jerk for saying it), but its not the games fault, its yours...
And so, I just hope that answered some questions for you, and explained WHY the devs havent done some of those things that you said.
Danifae everything I've heard on numbers, Cox doesn't need saving. Last I heard we were around 150 k subscriptions which is more then many games out there. Shoot even the old Asherons Call is still around and has more then 10k of subscriptions so that should show what the real danger level is for this game!
Yes. Obviously the best way to compete with other MMORPGs would be to make City of Heroes exactly like all other MMORPGs.
Are you kidding? I hate MMORPGs with a burning passion and City of Heroes is the only one I can stomach. The atmosphere's friendly, you don't have to be an elf or an orc and there's very little PvP. It's perfect.
Is it in the future plans of the devs to make it possible to transfer toons from account to account, as you have now made it available to transfer toons from server to server?
Where's our second DOUBLE XP weekend you promised in an interview you made with woot radio. Huh..? You said you were going to have two per year.. REMEMEBER..! BAH.. BAH.. BAAAAH..! >.<
PL meh Matt Miller....! PL meh....! >.<
I can't feel my legs..!
I still want a summer event..
Convert the winter pocket D challet into a waterslide fun park, complete with tiki torches, fireworks and Carribean music.
It would be easy, (sort of) just add green grass, Carribean decore and many water slide tubes and splash wave pools big enough to handle the largest Brutes and Tankers. ;P
Why not convert croatoa winter event mission into summer tropical island mission..? Rescue Don Ho..?
I can't feel my legs..!
Can I have some of what you're smoking? CoH is hard in high levels, never getting out of debt? Let me guess, you play a blaster on invincible that solos all the time?
CoX is way easier than WoW.
Proud member of the LEGION, and Sisterhood