I actually PM'd Castle about this, I basically asked "Does PVP have a future"
He said "With a larger staff, that should hopefully give us more freedom to deal with a larger variety of issues, including PvP."
[ QUOTE ]
I actually PM'd Castle about this, I basically asked "Does PVP have a future"
He said "With a larger staff, that should hopefully give us more freedom to deal with a larger variety of issues, including PvP."
[/ QUOTE ]
Whoo!
[threadjack]
How many people are working on this topic title changing?
[/threadjack]
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
[ QUOTE ]
uninteresting games with both players relying on the one exploitable technique again and again
[/ QUOTE ]
As apt a description of MMO as we're likely to get. And I don't realistically see it ever changing.
reply to first post;
I agree the main difficulty for PvP is the disparity between the powersets. I also feel that some disparity is inherent in many sets, but makes for a better team experience for what it brings to the mix, strength to the team at the expense of some weakness that is solved by another teammate. However there is no reason to carry this line of game design to the point where it breaks some other part of the game for the player... like PvP accessability!
I will give one example only. Force Fields as a Primary. It should be great for a Defender in PvP, but is useless for self-defense in PvP because even the lowest To Hit Buffing power cuts through Dispersion Bubble allowing most opponents to hit at 85-95% and of course Force Fields has no Heals and Defenders have low HPs. So a non-rewarding PvP experience is likely and you rarely see Force Field defenders in PvP or really in the PvE game anymore. Not saying you never see them, but it is rare these days even though FF works very well in PvE.
There is a simple solution in my example; Make Defender Dispersion Bubble immune to To Hit Buffs or highly resistant and give Controllers, MMs, Dispersion Bubble Bots, minor To Hit Resistance since it is not their Primary and they do not rely on it as much having other control powers and/or Bodyguard. Dispersion Bubble could still be defeated by Defense Debuffs, but not To Hit Buffs.
My example is really an obvious flaw and offers an easy and balanced fix, but it will most likely never happen unless Cryptic Devs get a little more pro-active about fixing the really bad PvP sets. What could it hurt? Would FF Defenders suddenly take the PvP crown from Stalkers? No. Would FF Defenders suddenly own the PvE game? No, the mobs don't use To Hit Buffs unless they are EB's or AV's and I don't see FF Defenders soloing AV's if Dispersion Bubble became immune to To Hit buffs. All it would really do is make Dispersion Bubble function in PvP like it does now in PvE and that is supposedly a balanced level of Defense for the AT and the team.
Anyway, fixes like this that would not hurt the game, but defeat obvious PvP flaws should be added as soon as they pass Test and they should be added for testing as fast as possible, not 2 years from now.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
City of Heroes, the game is nearly the same as it was the last time I logged in July. I even took the time to write something Poetic for you.
-
A moss covered boulder beseeched to the valley it lay among, to push it up the mountain one last time. OhÂ’ how it wished to howl in jubilation once more, rather than weep. Its pleas went unanswered as they always did. Birds flew from the sky, perched and pecked upon its pride; still the boulder remained stagnant as stone often does.
Dear Devs, I'm pretty new to the game and love it. I was wondering if there might be an event or option where the villains can temporarily breach the barriers into Paragon and 'wreak havoc'. Sorta like a P v P thing but the heroes have to defend the city from other players.
Also, maybe the heroes could sneak into the villains realm to rescue one of the CoH icon-types (Ms. Liberty etc). This could be more of a mission thing like Father Time/Baby New Year. The villains invading Paragon could just be an open thing and not a mission-type deal...where everyone in that section of the city sees/interacts with an invading villain. The other angle one could take is if actual toons lost in battle and were abducted and actually held in the villain realm; a posse would have to be formed for a rescue mission.
I think it'd be cool to have the 2 realms (heroes and villains) interact in something a bit more meaningful than just fights.
Villains have Mayhem Missions that let them rob banks in Paragon City clone maps. The two sides can visit in Pocket D and the Rikit War Zone actually lets both sides team up versus the whatever bad guy groups in door missions and street hunts.
- Captain Amazing
Actually I've said it once a while back and I'll say it again. The only real reason WoW has so many subscribers is because of advertising. We've all seen the ads lately with the celebrity endorsements, i.e. William Shatner and a few others. My Feeling is if CoX was to advertise on national TV we would pick up a few boat loads of new subscribers and players. CoX to me is still by far the superior product by which all MMO's should achieve to be like.
The only thing I would want to see changed is raising the level cap from 50 to 60. My reason for this is simple, it would allow room to give Villains epic powers like Heroes have and Give heroes Patron Powers Like villains. And allow for a new PvP zone possibly based on player feedback.
This game has a hard time keeping new players because this game is easy to play in the beginning, but the steepness of the player vs mob curve rockets away from players at a rapid pace. There really isn't much for content and everything rests on defeating mobs/succeeding in door missions which becomes very difficult too early in the game. Plus, the anti-soloing makes this game unattractive as well. Add to that the anti-herding and anti-pulling, it's no wonder you can't find a enough people for even a PUG, no one plays this game (competently) anymore.
- Captain Amazing
[ QUOTE ]
Villains have Mayhem Missions that let them rob banks in Paragon City clone maps. The two sides can visit in Pocket D and the Rikit War Zone actually lets both sides team up versus the whatever bad guy groups in door missions and street hunts.
- Captain Amazing
[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking about this. I think that it would be awesome to have the option to do PvP bank missions. So that a group of villains would be trying to rob the bank and the heroes would be trying to stop them. Don't enforce it, just have a switch that allows the option.
@failut
A note from my family on the CoH/V shutdown:
http://hellboundatheist.net/random/c...%20random.html
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can I have some of what you're smoking? CoH is hard in high levels, never getting out of debt? Let me guess, you play a blaster on invincible that solos all the time?
CoX is way easier than WoW.
[/ QUOTE ]I have to agree with Stoney here, after I read what Et_tu_Brute said a few more times over, I have to say that he (Et_tu_Brute) is more hung-up on the 'golden age' of CoX than I am.
Although Stoney, Bot does play an NRG/NRG blaster and he rarely goes into debt, or so far as I know.
[/ QUOTE ]
I play almost exclusively controllers and doms - the squishiest of the squishies! Worse yet - I sometimes forget I need to be a 'ranged' fighter. One second I'm standing next to the Brute/Tank hitting the 'heal' button, next minute I am face down in the sewer 'water'. Hehe... I guess my point is that I die alot and my experience is that the debt goes away fast. The poster must have been referring to the COH of yesteryear.
The Mayhem missions are so much fun! Admit it.. blowing up a car, mailbox, etc, makes you smile.
On the other hand...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... oh, sorry, was doing a Safeguard mission just then and seemed to have dozed off...
Let me state the obvious if you will indulge me. This is February of 2008. This thread is nearly a year old. It sits in the "Developers Corner" category of the forums. It appears on the first page of posts consistently but is not "sticky".
Does the absence of any "red named" response mean what I think it does? Have the developers truly ignored this topic for nearly a year?!?
Though I am rarely thankful for moments of ignorance, this is an exception. I am actually glad that I did not read this post before returning to CoV/H. Otherwise I may not have returned at all.
Being a veteran of several other MMO's and having participated in PvP in all of them I am somewhat qualified to say this: The PvP balance in CoH/V is utterly laughable. If there has been any attempt to make PvP in this world balanced, it has failed.
If there is any belief by the developers that it is balanced, that belief is grossly misguided.
This thread which has been here and added to for nearly a year clearly indicates that paying customers are not satisfied.
I can only assume that the developers are simply unaware of the depth of the issue and how many customers that it affects.
Following that train of thought, perhaps we should try a little harder to share our concerns with them. Perhaps the burden of communicating the problem to the developers continues to be ours.
In many aspects, this game is perfect. It's interesting, intelligent and challenging. Balancing the PvP and epic power sets would make it much better.
I am not advocating or condoning that we spam the developers with petitions. However, we certainly have the right and responsibility to make certain that the developers are fully aware of our dissatisfaction with this aspect of their product for which we, the customer, pays at least $180.00 a year.
Nocti Forever,
OpenSorce
TheNocti.com
[ QUOTE ]
Let me state the obvious if you will indulge me. This is February of 2008. This thread is nearly a year old. It sits in the "Developers Corner" category of the forums. It appears on the first page of posts consistently but is not "sticky".
Does the absence of any "red named" response mean what I think it does? Have the developers truly ignored this topic for nearly a year?!?
Though I am rarely thankful for moments of ignorance, this is an exception. I am actually glad that I did not read this post before returning to CoV/H. Otherwise I may not have returned at all.
Being a veteran of several other MMO's and having participated in PvP in all of them I am somewhat qualified to say this: The PvP balance in CoH/V is utterly laughable. If there has been any attempt to make PvP in this world balanced, it has failed.
If there is any belief by the developers that it is balanced, that belief is grossly misguided.
This thread which has been here and added to for nearly a year clearly indicates that paying customers are not satisfied.
I can only assume that the developers are simply unaware of the depth of the issue and how many customers that it affects.
Following that train of thought, perhaps we should try a little harder to share our concerns with them. Perhaps the burden of communicating the problem to the developers continues to be ours.
In many aspects, this game is perfect. It's interesting, intelligent and challenging. Balancing the PvP and epic power sets would make it much better.
I am not advocating or condoning that we spam the developers with petitions. However, we certainly have the right and responsibility to make certain that the developers are fully aware of our dissatisfaction with this aspect of their product for which we, the customer, pays at least $180.00 a year.
Nocti Forever,
OpenSorce
TheNocti.com
[/ QUOTE ]
PvP balance...
I've played several MMO's in the past, and if there's anything I learned, is that you build differently for pvp than you do pve.
My original main was an elec/elec/elec blaster - the end drain reduction killed her viability in pvp. What was my response? Make another toon!
I run an Ice/Ice/Cold and just hit 400 rep yesterday, and yes, it was without farming for rep. Did I have to sacrifice powers for the sake of pvp? YOU BET. Did I invest a lot into my build? Millions. Can I defeat anyone? Just about. Can I be beat? Of course.
The PvP world is always different from PvE. If I thought it was broken, I wouldn't bother to PvP at all. Could it use rebalancing, sure. But I can think of a few other things that need fixing far before pvp. The majority of folks I meet aren't into PvP at all, and after my experiences, I really can't blame them.
My first MMO toon was a blue twilek in SWG. One on One, he could beat anyone. Lucky for me, the pve build also worked well for that aspect of pvp. However, when in came to general pvp, having to close to melee range could be a problem, especially since I had to sacrifice mobility for survivability. Ranged folks and jedi had the advantages in group pvp - ranged could kite while jedi could run away when their health waned. In trying to rebalance the combat system, they effectively broke the game in their attempt to encourage teamplay. What I could easily solo now could easily kill me.
I eventually moved on to WoW, and built a PvE ice mage. I pvp'd with her anyway, and was very ineffective when compared to other builds. I could have rebuilt her strictly for PvP, but the sacrifices I would make would limit the aspects of Pve I enjoyed most, the AoE.
In CoH, I now have an ice/ice/cold mage that hit 400 rep yesterday without farming. I respec'd her several times, and loaded her with expensive stuff. I know if I had EM, she'd be more effective, but she still is quite adept at taking down foes.
In PvP, you can't expect all builds to do the same. If that were the case, why make them different at all? If I could get the range of a blaster and the protection of a tank, why be anything else?
[ QUOTE ]
Let me state the obvious if you will indulge me. This is February of 2008. This thread is nearly a year old. It sits in the "Developers Corner" category of the forums. It appears on the first page of posts consistently but is not "sticky".
Does the absence of any "red named" response mean what I think it does? Have the developers truly ignored this topic for nearly a year?!?
Though I am rarely thankful for moments of ignorance, this is an exception. I am actually glad that I did not read this post before returning to CoV/H. Otherwise I may not have returned at all.
Being a veteran of several other MMO's and having participated in PvP in all of them I am somewhat qualified to say this: The PvP balance in CoH/V is utterly laughable. If there has been any attempt to make PvP in this world balanced, it has failed.
If there is any belief by the developers that it is balanced, that belief is grossly misguided.
This thread which has been here and added to for nearly a year clearly indicates that paying customers are not satisfied.
I can only assume that the developers are simply unaware of the depth of the issue and how many customers that it affects.
Following that train of thought, perhaps we should try a little harder to share our concerns with them. Perhaps the burden of communicating the problem to the developers continues to be ours.
In many aspects, this game is perfect. It's interesting, intelligent and challenging. Balancing the PvP and epic power sets would make it much better.
I am not advocating or condoning that we spam the developers with petitions. However, we certainly have the right and responsibility to make certain that the developers are fully aware of our dissatisfaction with this aspect of their product for which we, the customer, pays at least $180.00 a year.
Nocti Forever,
OpenSorce
TheNocti.com
[/ QUOTE ]
Go here.
"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21
Guide to Base Teleporters
[ QUOTE ]
Does the absence of any "red named" response mean what I think it does?
[/ QUOTE ]
You tell me: is it good policy to have your lead developers personally answer every whiner on the board? What kind of behavior do you think that would encourage: less whining, or more whining?
Maybe that's why "calling out the developers" is against board policy. That could be it.
secks...whatever,
I notice all your characters are CoH. This leads me to believe that you have no idea about unbalance at all. Do have fun with your heroes though. Cheers!
CaptA: Thank you. That was.....informative, if nothing else.
Hertz: Whining? Calling out? I don't see that at all. I see people with real enough dissatisfaction to keep a non-sticky post on the forefront of the forum for over a year. I see people respectfully asking to get equality, to get balance. Despite the obvious responsibility and authority of the Developers, we are their most important asset. We are the paying customer. We have a concern and as such deserve to have it directly addressed.
I've noticed PvP most often played by a handful of players who know the weaknesses of the unbalanced system. That was once the case in Matrix Online. After that combat system underwent a complete redesign, all of that changed. It was amazing how many more players began to pvp once there was a bit more balance in play. I estimate that due to MxO's storyline issues, the only factor keeping it alive is it's PvP. Had the change not been put into effect I can only imagine whether the game would still exist.
So just to clarify:
Dear Developers,
I join with the other posters on this thread in asking WHEN will the pvp in your product be balanced? Please respond as soon as possible. We are faithfully waiting for an answer.
Thanks so much!
Nocti Forever,
OpenSorce
My post was to show you where the devs (in this case, their rep) were trying to address the issues.
"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21
Guide to Base Teleporters
I am a long time MMO player, I have played at least a dozen and a half MMO's, PtP and free, and have recently settled with WoW and CoX. In WoW, I have not become a PvP god, but I have become pretty dang good, with my 70 hunter and 70 warrior in relatively unimpressive gear. In comparison, in CoX, I entered PvP with my DM/SR stalker, and with top of the line IO's, I was being beaten at every turn in Warburg. I had players seeing me in hide from 200 feet off. I was being hit by players 95% of the time even when they had fear double-stacked, 3 sets of the auto dark de-buff stacks, and I had focused fighting, agil, dodge, and hide, all of which normally has me as untouchable. In PvE, I am almost god-like, I am only hit 15% of the time, with no de-buffs on the enemy, with de-buffs and a couple purples just in case, I have solo'd Miss Liberty and Ms. Liberty. I enter a PvE zone though, and people hone in on me like no tomorrow. I am not kidding, even watching duels and letting people know I am watching the duel, people who are sitting side-by-side with other villains, will immediately pull a boulder out of the ground to hurl it at me, even though I am almost outside of the range of ranged attacks. The one thing that has saved me is my choice of teleport as a travel power. I go into PvP in zones higher than Bloody Bay, and people can see me at sniper range. BALANCE IS A LIE IN PVP (Just like the cake). I may have done decently in PvP if I had chosen a secondary that wasn't super reflexes, which would have possibly done just as well in PvE. But I sit and get killed in 3 shots in PvP. Repeatedly. The only kills I get are when I attack people who are already engaged and are distracted. The only kills I got fairly (if you could say that) were in bloody bay. I will hardly say my PvP strategies are fool-proof, but after playing WoW, which in my opinion has some of the best PvP, and becoming a consistent top-3 ranking PvP'r in all forms on the score-board, and then going into this game, where the accepted strategy for stalkers is my preferred hit-and-run strategy, I must say, even the so-called mighty PvP AT's are brought low by a single wrong power pool when confronted by good ones. People talk about how OP'd stalkers are. Well, we only are in groups, because other-wise, we get demolished. Tankers, scrappers, controllers, blasters, only defenders have been unable to kill me, and that in large part is due to my choice of teleport. PvP between WoW and CoX may not be entirely similar, but when I am destroyed even though I have like +50% defense and can hold a -70% acc on the enemy because I still get hit 95% of the time, it irks me. Also, those who say you need to be rich to be good... well, your standards for rich must be pretty low, I have all lvl 35 or 30 IO's and still another mill left over just from lvl'ing 1-33 in SG mode the whole time and despite forking over 300k to a friend so he can buy some stuff. And now I feel an urge to kill stuff in WoW for the first time in a month. I also have the feeling I may have gotten off-topic and ranted there... oh well.
[ QUOTE ]
Whining? Calling out? I don't see that at all. I see people with real enough dissatisfaction to keep a non-sticky post on the forefront of the forum for over a year. I see people respectfully asking to get equality, to get balance. Despite the obvious responsibility and authority of the Developers, we are their most important asset. We are the paying customer. We have a concern and as such deserve to have it directly addressed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Raising concerns is one thing. Deserve to have it directly addressed is another entirely. There seems to be a bit of confusion as to what 'calling out' means. So here's a couple from an online dictionary. nice and close to the top, as well.
- To demand or ask for the presence of
- To demand or ask for a meeting of
While we are the paying customers, the person we are customers to may not be best served (and we in turn may not be best served) by bowing to the whim of whoever asks or calls (even if only through response).
And always remember that the paying customer card doesn't play well against the paying customer card. After all, if person A, as a paying customer, demands X, and person B (also a paying customer) demands that X not happen... who do you go with? Not to mention the dilemma of what to do if the majority of the population wants Y, which happens to be something that would render X partially (but not to the satisfaction of person A or person B) enacted.
It's a more complex situation than "I want answers" and "When will you acknowledge my concerns?"
[ QUOTE ]
So just to clarify:
Dear Developers,
I join with the other posters on this thread in asking WHEN will the pvp in your product be balanced? Please respond as soon as possible. We are faithfully waiting for an answer.
Thanks so much!
Nocti Forever,
OpenSorce
[/ QUOTE ]
So, just to clarify... this is calling out. Pretty much the definition bang on.
"Please respond as soon as possible."
This and every line in my posts are requests...not demands. I can only imagine that the developers in this game have much higher integrity than to hide behind some "no calling out" clause.
Especially when the concerns of paying customers need to be addressed and NO demands have been made.
Also, as any business person will tell you: While you may not be able to please every paying customer with your product. You certainly have a responsibility to at least address every concern that any paying customer may have. As a matter of fact it's a basic tenant of most business organizations. I'm certain that the developers of this product have the same or greater customer service awareness than say...the local convenience store. Thus far we have yet to hear so much as an acknowledgment of the problem.
Once again: I Developers: We, your paying customers, have a concern. Please address it as soon as possible. Thank you
Nocti Forever,
OpenSorce
[ QUOTE ]
"Please respond as soon as possible."
This and every line in my posts are requests...not demands. I can only imagine that the developers in this game have much higher integrity than to hide behind some "no calling out" clause.
Especially when the concerns of paying customers need to be addressed and NO demands have been made.
Also, as any business person will tell you: While you may not be able to please every paying customer with your product. You certainly have a responsibility to at least address every concern that any paying customer may have. As a matter of fact it's a basic tenant of most business organizations. I'm certain that the developers of this product have the same or greater customer service awareness than say...the local convenience store. Thus far we have yet to hear so much as an acknowledgment of the problem.
Once again: I Developers: We, your paying customers, have a concern. Please address it as soon as possible. Thank you
Nocti Forever,
OpenSorce
[/ QUOTE ]
If you read the "Campfire" thread then you might be educated as to the history of PvP in the past year with this game. BUT to quote you- "Thus far we have yet to hear so much as an acknowledgment of the problem." I'm gonna re-cap that history since you are apparently ignorant of what has happened in this past year.
A PvP rep (or whatever Ex is called) took special attention to the needs of the PvP community in this game. She got the arenas fixed and has made some changes to the forums to make the PvP community feel more "accepted" in this game. She has scheduled some serious ladder and teired matches between the "ranked" PvP SG/VG's to see who was at the top of the ladder. Who was King of the Hill. She did this to show that they care about the PvP community and want them to see that. When a winner emerged they were acknowledged in the Message of the Day and "Gratz" were given out by all. PvP fight nights were scheduled to encourage more to participate in PvP and bring new players into the PvP community. She has done a lot- her efforts have been pretty much "Herculean" to get PvP fixed and addressed and done tons of stuff to encourage PvP growth in this game.
After a year- what has happened?
After a year of her efforts, the population has not grown.
AT ALL.
So, if the population does not grow and in fact shrinks as many think and specualte, what exactly should the develpopers of this game do? What would you have them do? What more should they do to "fix" PvP? Beyond what Ex has done what else should they do?
Balance?
My question to you is- WHY?
Why should the developers WASTE anymore money on PvP in this game when after a year of Ex's involvement and the year and a half previous the PvP community have not grown into a mighty number? PvP has not been the "goose that has laid the golden egg" for this game and it has NOT brought in huge amounts of revenue. So, they should according to you "balance" a system that would need MASSIVE amount of time and development to address the needs and wants of the MINORITY population, all the while- ignoring the wants and needs of the MAJORITY population. Time and money spent on PvP would be money and time NOT spent on PvE.
No.
They are not going to do that. They are not going to balance PvP for the minority, they are not going to put anymore time money and effort into a LOSING AND WASTED EFFORT.
Why won't they tell you this? Well, obviously, the illusion must stand that they care on some lvl about the PvP community. So, they'll pat you on your little head and tell you- "we're looking into it". Psssssst- I'll let you in on a secret- they are not. Because they don't care. They don't care about the minority because again you are the minority. Your wants and needs shall come second to those of the majority.
They will let sacrifice it like a cancerous limb to sustain the rest of a healthy and viable body.
Goodbye, and Good Riddence.
Please, do let the door hit you on your teeny, tiny, minority a$$ on the way out.
Heh.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
Is there any works on what ( or when ) the villain epic AT's will be? Is there anything that could possibly be in the works for a betrayal TF/SF for those that want to go from bad to good and vice versa?