To the OP:
While I appreciate your frustration and love for the game, you should know that posts "calling out the devs" almost always go unanswered. And a 30 month badge and $4.50 will get you a venti mocha at Starbucks. Oh and it will get you some neat base items. (I like them) What it won't get you is special attention or privilege. 
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Mentalmaiden, nobody has "called out" the devs or "asked for special privilege." I've made that clear as the summer sun. Please stop trying to cause trouble.
Castle is now posting on the PvP threads. I am delighted with this whether I've contributed to it or no. I've obviously reactivated my account. Please consider this thread locked and thank you all.
Heylo there, love you guys' game. I was instantly addicted, I even canceled my WoW accout to come and be a soully CoH/CoV gamer. But shhs....don't tell them that I said that. Anywho, your game is awsome the graphics are of the hook, the character creation portion? Lets just say I can't stop making Alts. Its just so darn fun. One concern I do have though, is why the heck do you have to wait three months to get a trench coat? Oi! it made me cry when I found that out. But no big deal, I'll soon have a trench coat and I'm gonna record my Main dancing in it and send it to you guys to show you my appreciation. haha, I guess my only feedback is the game is awsome. *taps chin* now was there something I had a problem with? Oh, yeah the only problem I had in game was taken care of, and I thank you guys for helping me out so quickly, you guys were ontop of it. Even with my lag, GM Alexander was paitent with me and helped me out of my "stuck" situation. And I continued on to game some more. Thank you guys for being so caring to your fans. Cause yes all of us CoH/CoV addicts are fans. Now where do I go to get my t-shirt? hmmm.....will have to look into that. Haha!
"Have a nice day." - Mankind
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Hi. Im a vet of CoH and CoV, and I want to ask about PvP. Im taking a different approach and Id like to ask the developers a direct question.
I really like the basic framework of CoHs PvP system. I feel its on the cusp of a fabulous game and with more effort, PvP could be a favorite game attraction. Unfortunately the PvP system is significantly, grossly unbalanced and the only ones involved now are die-hards who would play with it no matter how badly the system was designed.
Heres a typical post, by no means authoritative but a good summation.
Controller - Emp or Kin?
Defender - Emp, Kin, Rad or Cager?
Blaster - Ice/EM or Fire/EM?
Scrapper - Are you seriously going to bring anything other than Spines?
Tank - If you bring anything other than EM, its just a taunt bot.
there's no room for variation in the support. Yea, you can mix around the damage a bit, maybe bring an Ice/Ice blaster, or a BS/Regen scrapper, but there's not much you can really change.
The problem for me is that there are only a handful of truly viable PvP powerset combinations; the only way to mix things up is through the combinations you make with those powersets.
We could debate the details but this writers assessment is fundamentally correct. The majority of powerset combinations and even entire archetypes are virtually excluded from PvP.
Ive never PMed or bugged the Devs. So as a holder of a Committed veteran award I feel Ive earned the right to publicly ask Statesman, Positron, Geko and Castle this single question: do you plan to refine PvP?
Im well aware that balancing ATs and powersets for PvP is a difficult matter, especially with PvE concerns. Some refinement has taken place and I appreciate the work involved. For example, I saw Super Reflexes redesigned into a workable set.
Id like to quote from Rules of Play by Salen and Zimmerman, a book on game design. Ive quoted this book before but Id like to bring this directly to the developers attention. Ive condensed the quotations but not to violate the intentions of the writers.
Degenerate strategies often appear in complex games, where the numerous permutations of play sometimes afford shortcuts in the space of possibility
What makes a strategy degenerate is not just that it goes against the intentions of the designers
it violates the spirit of the game
In early editions of Magic: The Gathering certain card combinations were simply too powerful and could destroy a player on the first turn.
The publishers of the game declared certain cards illegal, most notoriously the Black Lotus card, in order to keep this kind of play experience in check.
Why isnt a degenerate strategy considered cheating? Degenerate strategies take advantage of weaknesses in the rules of a game but do not actually violate the rules
Whether or not a particular degenerate strategy is considered proper is often contextual. For example, the use of a single-technique exploit to beat all of the computer opponents in a hypothetical fighting game might be admired
a dedicated player has solved the fighting game like a puzzle
If the degenerate strategy is used against other human players, fighting bouts would devolve into uninteresting games with both players relying on the one exploitable technique again and again.
Degenerative strategies can lead to iterative design. It is beautiful to think of a game design as a design in process, which can grow and evolve over time, remaining fresh in response to changing needs and invented strategies.
Before anyone takes offense to the term unsportsmanlike player, please note that in an iterative design environment such players are actually a resource. They find the holes that the designers must fill. They take pride in their ruthlessness but scrupulously never cheat. They detest true cheaters. (Cheaters could be considered a similar resource, of course. I would prefer the term "game-breaking player.")
My diagnosis, and I think every long-time player of CoH will support me, is that CoHs PvP system has degenerated and is in dire need of more regular and diligent iterative design.
Statesman, Geko, Castle and Positron, you will continue to receive my patient support if you assure me you intend a more regular and diligent iterative design. But almost eighteen months after CoVs release if you dont respond, I for one must assume you mean to abandon PvP to its current degenerate state and move on.
So again: do you plan to refine PvP?
Thank you for your time.
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and CoV would have no issues in PvP?
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I'm not sure you can fix some of those things without radically altering the PvE game that the devs feel is their bread and butter. I don't think the devs want to implement an "Enhancement Diversification 2.0" style change just to make this game more PvP friendly.
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It would actually be nice if they did. The player-base is fairly complacent now because most things work most of the time in PvE, so things are getting left un-fixed.
A good nice nerfing would really light a fire under the developers to make some positive changes, and PvP play, athough I am utterly uninterested in it, would benefit.
Then again, the IO system does pretty much restore Issue 4 play if you are rich enough... fortunately I *was* rich enough and only one of my "concept" toons still exists anyway.
For those people who don't have 4+ 50's (on the correct server!) to bankroll their concept toons are basically screwed though.
I must say, though - turning an Energy/Energy Blaster into a Energy Melee/Super Reflexes Scrapper is a bargain at 75 million influence. It's very fun.
Of course, that doesn't help other people. Adding elemental damage to Scrapper primaries is a dramatically more effective solution for everyone. But that won't happen for reasons that aren't clear to me.
Maybe it's intended that Spines be the most-used PvP Scrapper set? Or that Blasters make better melee combatants in PvP then most Scrapper builds?
I don't have the answers, but the questions, at least, are out there...
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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First off any build can be good in PvP depending how u build it and play it.
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That's just not true Magic718. There's a reason that most Scrappers in the zones are Regen and not SR. I love my little MA/SR Scrapper, but there's no way in [censored] that she can survive what my BS/Regen Scrapper can. I don't care who's playing her or how I337 your skillz are.
I truly get that PvP is balanced around teams, not one-on-one. So some ATs simply can't survive against other ATs, and that's fine. My BS/Regen can take on 4 villains and win. That's kill one or two of the villains and escape from the others without dying himself, I consider that a win. Occasionally he'll take 3 or even all 4 of them. I PvP fairly often, but not enough to even try to claim possession of 1337 PvP skillz. My MA/SR Scrapper often wins or loses in a one-on-one confrontation. 2 or more villains and I'm guaranteed to lose.
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1. SR will never get a heal...ever. Arcana's gotten this too.
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This makes me sad EvilGeko. Oh well, now if SR could get an endurance discount power (since its toggles are THE most expensive to run of all the Scrapper sets) and some actual resistance to slows in PvP I'd be one happy camper. I can see my Regen Scrapper being slowed, but SR is supposed to be about speed, it's supposed to have resistance to being slowed. If SR's lack of survivability were made up for by its ability to maintain unsuppressed movement I'd call that "balance." Or certainly close enough.
Personally I believe that the reason Super Reflexes' total lack of survivability in PvP hasn't been addressed by the Devs isn't because they really enjoy our pain. I believe it's simply because they don't know how to fix it. Not in a way that will make a difference without making them teh uBer in PvE.
To the OP: I believe it unlikely that the Devs will respond in this thread. Not because they dislike you. Not because they don't care about their customers. But because of simple human psychology. First is the natural human reaction of "Call me out? Who the [censored] does this guy think he is?" I don't care who you are, if you aren't dead you're going to have this reaction to some degree. Second is the precident they know it will set. "Great. Since we responded to this guy's demand thread yesterday there are now 1321 other threads DEMANDING a response."
Don't quit the game because the Devs don't deign to respond to your demands. Quit the game because you no longer have fun playing it. Or stay. At least until another MMO comes along that isn't a WoW ripoff.
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Well, the devs never answered, satisfying me that they no longer really care about the PvP game or in catering to their customers. Theyve moved on to creating an elaborate loot system without fixing obvious bugs in their arenas and sundry balance issues. We can only hope theyll learn and improve with their Marvel game. Ill come back to give that a try.
I suppose what remains is to briefly discuss what the team did right and wrong.
The greatest thing the devs accomplished is to design a game that teaches teamwork. A tanker, blaster, defender or controller can only progress very slowly alone. Together they are a force to be reckoned with, each fulfilling a vital role in keeping the others alive. Even the scrapper, good at working alone, can have an exciting role in the team. On the villain side they were less successful. Stalkers and dominators combine in exciting ways, corruptors combine with everyone. But the Mastermind adds so much clutter that many teams refuse to work with them, forcing brutes to tank. Still, the archetype system and the resulting teamwork is the crown jewel of their game design success. This design made CoH a valuable experience.
In the PvP game, teamwork is also essential due to the power of the stalker. Even a scrapper cannot do well against a pair of stalkers, and individual controllers or defenders are as victims walking alone in a horror movie. Only together can they hope to survive this horrific threat. I for one enjoyed fighting these villains and only wish the other villain classes offered such a challenge.
The devs designed an immersive, elaborate city (and island chain) with an interesting storyline.
As to what they failed to do, it falls under two categories: immersion and game design.
The game reminds its players that it is- a game all too often, and violates rules both of the superhero genre and of reality. We are asked to believe that were heroes arresting criminals, and were allowed to do so with battleaxes!? Surely many powersets are more appropriate to villains than to heroes.
The PvE game depends entirely too much upon taking advantage of the AIs stupidities. One may stand in plain view of an enemy for as long as you please and they dont see you until someone enters their pre-programmed radius or attacks. One of their own can run past on fire!- and they will not notice. Fine for Vahzilok zombies but not for the hyper-elite Malta. Patrols were a step in the right direction.
Tankers as a class are immersion-breaking. The Gauntlet power added to them works for me, but this taunting mechanism is a relic from older, cruder MMOs. Neither Captain Marvel nor The Thing send out mind-control rays that make people attack them. Indeed the "taunters" are... Spider-Man and Robin?!
Conning is a relic. Does it make sense that past a certain level the enemies simply ignore you? They should always either attack or flee.
Many, many powers are broken and little used: Maneuvers, Group Flight, scrapper and pool taunts, Jump Kick, the redraw factor in pool melee attacks, War Mace, the entire Dominator AT. Other powers outclass their competing options: Energy Melee, Regeneration, Radiation Emission. The devs have fixed some problems such as Super Reflexes and Fire Manipulation but their progress has been glacially slow.
Sadly, the heroes outperform the villains in PvP. Brute rage is broken. Dominators are defenseless. Corruptors lack the power of the APP. Masterminds spend two minutes resummoning for three seconds in combat.
..which brings me back to the problem I brought up at the start of this thread, the developers failure to engage in Iterative Game Design. They have not adapted the game rapidly and decisively in response to game performance and player feedback.
And now it seems they cannot be bothered even to respond to the question. Id give this invention system a chance if theyd replied. You win the wager, Kitten.
Its been fun.
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Not a PVP'r by any standard, but a few observations since reading the entire post...
1)The coming of PVP in issue 3 (or 4, can't remember) has caused the problems the PVP crowd is claiming that is wrong with the PVP experience...
2)It's been stated in the past that the actual numbers of players that post in these forums is in the very low percentages. The actual feelings and concerns posted on the forums is not a true representation of the entire subscribed player base...
3)I have not read where you sent a developer a PM with your concerns or did I miss that. Calling out devs is not good form either.
4)Can I have your stuff?
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amen!!!
Dragon-King First level 50 -- Fire/Nrg Blaster
(and to many alts to mention)
Protector
Quote:
| Originally by Arcanaville: Everything in Praetoria was designed during a drinking binge in which the devs temporarily forgot the rules. |
[censored]
As a player that's bounced back and forth between CoX and Wow for the past 2-3 years, and an avid PvPer on both, I can say with certainty that this game is not alone in it's PvP woes.
Many people consider WoW to be "more balanced" than alot of games, but really it faces the same problems that are described in this thread and others in the forums. There are "perfect builds" for pvp, there are even classes(or ATs) which are better than others, both for 1v1 and team encounters(as the top ranked arena teams clearly show).
And to top it all off, the WoW devs don't respond or acknowledge even the best written and well-thought posts on their WoW forums either.
The simple truth is that today's players are not simple at all. We are intelligent, intuitive, experienced, and informed. Many of us have grown up with video games of all types, and been part of the evolution of PvP since the days of Pong(for chrissake!). And ignoring the vocalization of that experience in relatively calm and intellgent threads such as this is akin to not accepting a twenty dollar bill because it came crumpled and worn from being in your friend's pocket instead of in the form of a printed paycheck with your company's logo stamped all over it!
Dismissing player feedback from forums because "it doesn't represent the majority of the player base" is pure idiocy. If anything, the players posting on the forums are the ones your should be listening to because they're the ones that actually care enough, and are (computer)-literate enough, to post in the first place!
The biggest mistake of conventional MMO developers is assuming that they know what players want more than the players themselves. That mode of thinking will not last much longer in today's competative gaming enviornment.
Talk to us. We're NOT stupid, we WILL understand when you say no if you bother to explain it to us.
A long time ago in SC I had a chat with a troller about the "balance" of pvp in CoX. The chat ended in this quote, " You are looking for the balance of a FPS, on a MMO."
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The simple truth is that today's players are not simple at all. We are intelligent, intuitive, experienced, and informed. Many of us have grown up with video games of all types, and been part of the evolution of PvP since the days of Pong(for chrissake!). And ignoring the vocalization of that experience in relatively calm and intellgent threads such as this is akin to not accepting a twenty dollar bill because it came crumpled and worn from being in your friend's pocket instead of in the form of a printed paycheck with your company's logo stamped all over it!
Dismissing player feedback from forums because "it doesn't represent the majority of the player base" is pure idiocy. If anything, the players posting on the forums are the ones your should be listening to because they're the ones that actually care enough, and are (computer)-literate enough, to post in the first place!
The biggest mistake of conventional MMO developers is assuming that they know what players want more than the players themselves. That mode of thinking will not last much longer in today's competative gaming enviornment.
Talk to us. We're NOT stupid, we WILL understand when you say no if you bother to explain it to us.
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QFT!
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
THIS GAME IS BROKEN I SAY I GOT HIT FOR 2100 hp ion rv by a kin with heavy and i only have 1200 hp [censored]
cross-posting is a nono, concernd
Personally, I hate PvP because of the people that it attracts. People act as if they're the elite of the elite because they can deal enough damage to kill my squishy PvE blaster. It does nothing but encourage trash-talking because they know you can't reach through the screen and slap them.
I was in Warburg where an Energy/something Tank was teamed with his Mind/Emp Troller brother. The Emp would sit in the water, where it was safe, and whenever his nigh-invincible brother would get in hot water, they'd run for each other, heal, buff, and then the emp would hit the water, and the tank would go about with his Energy Transfer/Build Up one-hit-kill. Oh, and calling them on this cheese-ball abuse of the zone was referred to as "whining".
PvP brings out the absolute worst in people, especially with an unbalanced system. PvPers ignore the enemies in the zone in a relatively pointless battle of rudeness. I always felt that the purpose of a game is to have fun, not make everyone else around you feel like garbage.
Victory
Schattenbolt - Blaster Elec/Elec/Elec
Pierce Steele - Blaster Arch/MM/Munitions
Paragons of Victory
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Personally, I hate PvP because of the people that it attracts. People act as if they're the elite of the elite because they can deal enough damage to kill my squishy PvE blaster. It does nothing but encourage trash-talking because they know you can't reach through the screen and slap them.
I was in Warburg where an Energy/something Tank was teamed with his Mind/Emp Troller brother. The Emp would sit in the water, where it was safe, and whenever his nigh-invincible brother would get in hot water, they'd run for each other, heal, buff, and then the emp would hit the water, and the tank would go about with his Energy Transfer/Build Up one-hit-kill. Oh, and calling them on this cheese-ball abuse of the zone was referred to as "whining".
PvP brings out the absolute worst in people, especially with an unbalanced system. PvPers ignore the enemies in the zone in a relatively pointless battle of rudeness. I always felt that the purpose of a game is to have fun, not make everyone else around you feel like garbage.
[/ QUOTE ]
This sums up my feelings about PvP pretty well. It's not that I am against going head-to-head with other players. It's just that by and large the people that do it are the kinds of players I don't want in my game. Not all, but many. Too many for me to care about taking PvP seriously in this game.
"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21
Guide to Base Teleporters
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Personally, I hate PvP because of the people that it attracts. People act as if they're the elite of the elite because they can deal enough damage to kill my squishy PvE blaster. It does nothing but encourage trash-talking because they know you can't reach through the screen and slap them.
I was in Warburg where an Energy/something Tank was teamed with his Mind/Emp Troller brother. The Emp would sit in the water, where it was safe, and whenever his nigh-invincible brother would get in hot water, they'd run for each other, heal, buff, and then the emp would hit the water, and the tank would go about with his Energy Transfer/Build Up one-hit-kill. Oh, and calling them on this cheese-ball abuse of the zone was referred to as "whining".
PvP brings out the absolute worst in people, especially with an unbalanced system. PvPers ignore the enemies in the zone in a relatively pointless battle of rudeness. I always felt that the purpose of a game is to have fun, not make everyone else around you feel like garbage.
[/ QUOTE ]
This sums up my feelings about PvP pretty well. It's not that I am against going head-to-head with other players. It's just that by and large the people that do it are the kinds of players I don't want in my game. Not all, but many. Too many for me to care about taking PvP seriously in this game.
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Quoted because I agree 100%.
Now, I will say this; I love PvP in a PvP game. Such as the Battlefield series. Just not in my MMOs.
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As a player that's bounced back and forth between CoX and Wow for the past 2-3 years, and an avid PvPer on both, I can say with certainty that this game is not alone in it's PvP woes.
Many people consider WoW to be "more balanced" than alot of games, but really it faces the same problems that are described in this thread and others in the forums. There are "perfect builds" for pvp, there are even classes(or ATs) which are better than others, both for 1v1 and team encounters(as the top ranked arena teams clearly show).
And to top it all off, the WoW devs don't respond or acknowledge even the best written and well-thought posts on their WoW forums either.
The simple truth is that today's players are not simple at all. We are intelligent, intuitive, experienced, and informed. Many of us have grown up with video games of all types, and been part of the evolution of PvP since the days of Pong(for chrissake!). And ignoring the vocalization of that experience in relatively calm and intellgent threads such as this is akin to not accepting a twenty dollar bill because it came crumpled and worn from being in your friend's pocket instead of in the form of a printed paycheck with your company's logo stamped all over it!
Dismissing player feedback from forums because "it doesn't represent the majority of the player base" is pure idiocy. If anything, the players posting on the forums are the ones your should be listening to because they're the ones that actually care enough, and are (computer)-literate enough, to post in the first place!
The biggest mistake of conventional MMO developers is assuming that they know what players want more than the players themselves. That mode of thinking will not last much longer in today's competative gaming enviornment.
Talk to us. We're NOT stupid, we WILL understand when you say no if you bother to explain it to us.
[/ QUOTE ]Might I suggest copying and pasting that lovely response and sending it to the devs inboxes roughly twice a week with receive read recipt?
I ain't kidding either, you'll get a response one way or another. The key is to be persistant with their inboxes. They'll read over these posts, but we won't know, but spam their inboxes and have the read recipt and by PlanetSide (The only decently balanced FPS MMO I've played, noted in here for issues on PVP in an MMO) you'll get a response.
Also, try having multiple people ask multiple Devs and producers about subscription numbers throughout CoX, like Pre-I3, Post-ED, etc. Check for inconsistinces(sp?).
Edit: If anyone can get numbers, try sending the PMs (via copy and paste) to me so I can look them over. I don't want posts on the boards because of locking, but I'm no fanboi who'll fabricate numbers.
Global - @Proton Sentinel
Jack Devon Crab Spider VEAT; Virtue
Mordigen Earth/Storm on Liberty and Virtue
Technological Terror Bots/FF; Liberty.
50s: Zul Vakirol Thugs/Poison; Virtue. Kiyujin Katana/SR
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The simple truth is that today's players are not simple at all. We are intelligent, intuitive, experienced, and informed. Many of us have grown up with video games of all types, and been part of the evolution of PvP since the days of Pong(for chrissake!). And ignoring the vocalization of that experience in relatively calm and intellgent threads such as this is akin to not accepting a twenty dollar bill because it came crumpled and worn from being in your friend's pocket instead of in the form of a printed paycheck with your company's logo stamped all over it!
Dismissing player feedback from forums because "it doesn't represent the majority of the player base" is pure idiocy. If anything, the players posting on the forums are the ones your should be listening to because they're the ones that actually care enough, and are (computer)-literate enough, to post in the first place!
The biggest mistake of conventional MMO developers is assuming that they know what players want more than the players themselves. That mode of thinking will not last much longer in today's competative gaming enviornment.
Talk to us. We're NOT stupid, we WILL understand when you say no if you bother to explain it to us.
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QFT!
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT again. The greatest pitfall to being a game designer is one I learned from watching the SOE and Blizzard devs at work.
Never, ever, under any circumstance, think you are smarter, more intuitive, or better informed than your playerbase. As has been adequately demonstrated in this thread, many of the people that play this game, and keep money in the till, are geniuses, and have an excellent grasp of both the situations they refer to, and the mechanics involved with them. DO NOT ignore them.
Many solutions to the difficulties we face on this game have been presented over and over again by such people. While some would be difficult to implement, they are still valid, and deserve a certain degree of follow-up.
Just sayin.
Stand UP.
FIGHT BACK!
Hmmm
I think part of the flaw of PvP is that one one side, you have people used to dealing with predictable enemies, sneaking up on them getting the first attack in, and kicking [censored].
On the other side, you have an AT which is designed to one-hit kill people.
One one side, you have mindless critters who can be easily mezzed, taunted, confused and taken out. On the other side, you have an intelligent player buffing and mez-protecting their minions.
But what are you gonna do? Take away stalkers' stealth? Take away MMs' pets? Take away Tanks' armor?
=/
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Personally, I hate PvP because of the people that it attracts. People act as if they're the elite of the elite because they can deal enough damage to kill my squishy PvE blaster. It does nothing but encourage trash-talking because they know you can't reach through the screen and slap them.
I was in Warburg where an Energy/something Tank was teamed with his Mind/Emp Troller brother. The Emp would sit in the water, where it was safe, and whenever his nigh-invincible brother would get in hot water, they'd run for each other, heal, buff, and then the emp would hit the water, and the tank would go about with his Energy Transfer/Build Up one-hit-kill. Oh, and calling them on this cheese-ball abuse of the zone was referred to as "whining".
PvP brings out the absolute worst in people, especially with an unbalanced system. PvPers ignore the enemies in the zone in a relatively pointless battle of rudeness. I always felt that the purpose of a game is to have fun, not make everyone else around you feel like garbage.
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Wow, a bias due to ignorance? No, that can't be.
You may find it easy to generalize a "PvPer" simply by listening to the ingenuity of the majority "I r l33tr than u n00b l2pvp" (Oh the intelligence), but I find it easier to spot a hypocritical naysayer criticizing every player for conceited attitudes and the annoyance of bragging without addressing the problem reasonably. You have the option of complaining about it by arguing with weak points (You get killed by class "x" [Add in multiple variables, such as: how quick you were killed, how they survived better, how they ran away then came back for the assassination, etc] so you hold a personal vendetta against the class and game's intended design whether it be balanced or not). In proper terminology, that is considered "whining" even while you contradict the problem.
Every game with any relatively working PvP system have people who define egotistical behavior by seeing how they act, but you (and people who also think alike) fail to compensate for the inappropriate use of logic. Every form of competition against other humans is based on personality; You could be the guy who lost, then started posting about your hatred against a certain type of people, or you could be the guy who lost, but keeping his cool and walking it off (accepting the outcome). In the end nobody, but people with the same grudges, cares.
It's not the players fault for choosing an overplayed class in order to compete in PvP here, especially if they solely emphasized on PvP.
If the idea of PvP bothers you and hinders the fun, don't participate in it. You may find that statement repetitively told by even the most simple minded being, but it's effective in the sense it actually works in preventing the prevailing misery.
Whose the elitist here? Right.
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Personally, I hate PvP because of the people that it attracts. People act as if they're the elite of the elite because they can deal enough damage to kill my squishy PvE blaster. It does nothing but encourage trash-talking because they know you can't reach through the screen and slap them.
I was in Warburg where an Energy/something Tank was teamed with his Mind/Emp Troller brother. The Emp would sit in the water, where it was safe, and whenever his nigh-invincible brother would get in hot water, they'd run for each other, heal, buff, and then the emp would hit the water, and the tank would go about with his Energy Transfer/Build Up one-hit-kill. Oh, and calling them on this cheese-ball abuse of the zone was referred to as "whining".
PvP brings out the absolute worst in people, especially with an unbalanced system. PvPers ignore the enemies in the zone in a relatively pointless battle of rudeness. I always felt that the purpose of a game is to have fun, not make everyone else around you feel like garbage.
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Wow, a bias due to ignorance? No, that can't be.
You may find it easy to generalize a "PvPer" simply by listening to the ingenuity of the majority "I r l33tr than u n00b l2pvp" (Oh the intelligence), but I find it easier to spot a hypocritical naysayer criticizing every player for conceited attitudes and the annoyance of bragging without addressing the problem reasonably. You have the option of complaining about it by arguing with weak points (You get killed by class "x" [Add in multiple variables, such as: how quick you were killed, how they survived better, how they ran away then came back for the assassination, etc] so you hold a personal vendetta against the class and game's intended design whether it be balanced or not). In proper terminology, that is considered "whining" even while you contradict the problem.
Every game with any relatively working PvP system have people who define egotistical behavior by seeing how they act, but you (and people who also think alike) fail to compensate for the inappropriate use of logic. Every form of competition against other humans is based on personality; You could be the guy who lost, then started posting about your hatred against a certain type of people, or you could be the guy who lost, but keeping his cool and walking it off (accepting the outcome). In the end nobody, but people with the same grudges, cares.
It's not the players fault for choosing an overplayed class in order to compete in PvP here, especially if they solely emphasized on PvP.
If the idea of PvP bothers you and hinders the fun, don't participate in it. You may find that statement repetitively told by even the most simple minded being, but it's effective in the sense it actually works in preventing the prevailing misery.
Whose the elitist here? Right.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not going to comment directly on what you said, since it's got conflicts of ideas on my behalf and I don't want to argue with myself.
To my point however, and I'm quoting you so I know what the hell I'm trying to talk about and not someone to debate with; is that if I want balanced PVP, I'll buy an SOE gamecard and resub on Planet Side. The issues with PVP in CoX is that most people are looking (and rightfully so) the balance of a First Person Shooter in an MMORPG. There's a bit of a problem with that right there and I'm sure you (The person I'm quoting as well as others) can figure that out.
Global - @Proton Sentinel
Jack Devon Crab Spider VEAT; Virtue
Mordigen Earth/Storm on Liberty and Virtue
Technological Terror Bots/FF; Liberty.
50s: Zul Vakirol Thugs/Poison; Virtue. Kiyujin Katana/SR
from what ive seen there is no horable pvp sets, just people are better with certain kinds, spines may be the easyist made to be more pvp acsesable, but all can be equley powerful if used corectly. for instence my dark/dark def, not even remotely made for pvp, and 50 or more players telling me he WILL stink in pvp, ends up killing more then half of them (where they start screaming like idiots). my point is although most of u seem to completly depenedent on these sets, it does not nesiceraly mean they are horable and unbalenced
IMO some PvP things are not exactly balanced. There seems a twin pole effect of what is good in PvE is not always good on PvP. Further, there are some players who have found ways to defeat almost everything, either by team or individual... they are just that good at PvP.
I look at Ice, Ice is so powerful in PvP, yet, Fire does what Ice cannot in PvE. Ice almost always detoggles too. Why? I don't know... even Crey Tanks detoggle stuff to the point of "why bother to turn it on". Does fire detoggle like that? No.
Now, lets look at Radiation... nasty, it can bring a Regen to his knees so fast it is unreal. Now, add Ice to Radiation and you have a combo that even a 6 year old can win with. What happens is that the combo is brought together in a Controller who has containment, a Jack Frost, and a tiny room and there is no excape - except as a faceplant. Next add the guys who are so hyper they are moving like the wind all over the place jumping, SS, flying, they have every move you can imagine. Add a "bully" type combo'd with "smack talk" and you have a reason to want to grab your monitor and dash it to the ground.
Yes, some builds are overpowered IMO. Detoggle is a major issue though. Even though it was fixed a few issues ago, it still remains a major power with Ice builds.
Ice, Energy, Radiation are the 3 true killers in PvP. Everything else is second or a poor third.
Now, I am not sure there is a way, but, if there was a chance, a way that even a weak build could "accidently" defeat a super uber PvP demi god... you know... lucky shot to the head? David and Goliath? Just a thought. What I am saying is that there should never be "I Win Automatically" builds. There should always be a risk - no matter how super uber you build your toon with the most expensive, bestest, number crunched, fast fingered, build you can possibly imagine with perfect attack chains, team speak, tweaked gamer computer, and Fiber Optic connecton right into a CoH Server!
Now that would be more Comic Book like! Yep, there should be a real possibility that David could defeat Goliath.
Well, that is my opinion for what it is worth...
I am Airman America... Super Hero... and I approve this message!
Hi everyone,
This is my PLEASE SAVE CITY OF HEROES reply!
Seems to me that this thread gets down to the point of why there was a mass exodus from City of Heroes in the first place. Personally, I love superheroes/villians. The graphics and the game design for COH/COV is still (in mid 2007) vastly superior to everything - including World of Warcraft. All my friends and associates agree. So why did they all quit playing COH?
Being in the computer programming and games business, I can tell you why if you want to know. This is not a COH bashing post... I wouldn't waste my time with that. I would prefer to be designing or playing a game right now. However, I really love the idea of COH and I feel VERY strongly that it should be a success ("COH 2 - A New Beginning"). I'll openly admit that I jumped to World of Warcraft and left COH behind. What's funny is we still talk about City of Heroes/Villians while we play WOW. After playing both games for several years and playing with literally hundreds of people, I've collected an awful lot of feedback on what works and what doesn't. Hey - it's my job to learn what works in computer gaming. Any ways, if any one is interested, here's the results we've compiled over several years.
1) WOW is by far the gold standard, as everyone should know
2) WOW allows you to have 25 quests active, all of which can be cancelled at any time. Some of the negative feedback was the 3 quest limit in COH and not being able to cancel it. (returning to contact to cancel 1 quest is not useful based on discussions).
3) WOW encourages you to push the limit as a player. We are supposed to be heroes who strive to do impossible things. So why does COH punish failure with XP debt and WOW does not? Good question. WOW simply charges you an extremely affordable amount of money to repair your items. COH, not having equipment, can't do this... or can they? Actually, you can. Simply charge a small amount of fame when the player gets killed. That makes perfect sense. Your fame should go down if you are defeated - not your XP. This makes a whole lot more sense to me.
4) Nerfing. What can I say about it. Nothing destroys client-consumer relationships faster than Nerfing. Nothing. This is the biggest no-no in the industry. City of Heroes is often called City of Nerfs - said with both parts affection and hatred. Your long term customers for online gaming consist primarily of power users who work on their characters for years. Want to drive someone away? Nerf their class. This is by far the biggest destructive factor. Around 90% of the people I asked in WOW said that this was the primary reason they left COH. Coming in a close 2nd was XP debt.
5) City of Heroes, simply put, was too hard at higher levels. This came up because people could never get out of XP debt
and, quite honestly, the game DOES get too hard. From a design point of view, I am not sure it makes sense to force people to team when they get higher level. There's something to be said about that lone hero - that urban legend.
I honestly hope some of this helps. I need to get back to work. Also, I could easily write a whole book on theories, but I'm not doing that unless I can find people who actually listen! (this is where you say, 'sorry, what'd you say'? 
I am ALWAYS interested in hearing thoughts, feedback, suggestions, or just plain funny things at my personal email. I hope to see people online in City of Heroes / City of Villains.
_____________________________________
COH/COV toons on Infinity server:
Nuclear Nurse (COH global@Nuclear Nurse)
Dark Reckoning (COH)
Cthulhu's Madness (COH)
Call of Cthulhu (COV)
Fist of Cthulhu (COV)
... and a whole lot more.
WOW on Uther server
(Hardly ever log on, play COH instead)
Sif (70 Warlock)
Jacynth (70 Hunter)
mdkrieter@hotmail.com
_________________________
"I hear you've been missing work a lot lately."
"Well, I wouldn't say I've been missing it Bob."
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Well, the devs never answered, satisfying me that they no longer really care about the PvP game or in catering to their customers. Theyve moved on to creating an elaborate loot system without fixing obvious bugs in their arenas and sundry balance issues. We can only hope theyll learn and improve with their Marvel game. Ill come back to give that a try.
I suppose what remains is to briefly discuss what the team did right and wrong.
The greatest thing the devs accomplished is to design a game that teaches teamwork. A tanker, blaster, defender or controller can only progress very slowly alone. Together they are a force to be reckoned with, each fulfilling a vital role in keeping the others alive. Even the scrapper, good at working alone, can have an exciting role in the team. On the villain side they were less successful. Stalkers and dominators combine in exciting ways, corruptors combine with everyone. But the Mastermind adds so much clutter that many teams refuse to work with them, forcing brutes to tank. Still, the archetype system and the resulting teamwork is the crown jewel of their game design success. This design made CoH a valuable experience.
In the PvP game, teamwork is also essential due to the power of the stalker. Even a scrapper cannot do well against a pair of stalkers, and individual controllers or defenders are as victims walking alone in a horror movie. Only together can they hope to survive this horrific threat. I for one enjoyed fighting these villains and only wish the other villain classes offered such a challenge.
The devs designed an immersive, elaborate city (and island chain) with an interesting storyline.
As to what they failed to do, it falls under two categories: immersion and game design.
The game reminds its players that it is- a game all too often, and violates rules both of the superhero genre and of reality. We are asked to believe that were heroes arresting criminals, and were allowed to do so with battleaxes!? Surely many powersets are more appropriate to villains than to heroes.
The PvE game depends entirely too much upon taking advantage of the AIs stupidities. One may stand in plain view of an enemy for as long as you please and they dont see you until someone enters their pre-programmed radius or attacks. One of their own can run past on fire!- and they will not notice. Fine for Vahzilok zombies but not for the hyper-elite Malta. Patrols were a step in the right direction.
Tankers as a class are immersion-breaking. The Gauntlet power added to them works for me, but this taunting mechanism is a relic from older, cruder MMOs. Neither Captain Marvel nor The Thing send out mind-control rays that make people attack them. Indeed the "taunters" are... Spider-Man and Robin?!
Conning is a relic. Does it make sense that past a certain level the enemies simply ignore you? They should always either attack or flee.
Many, many powers are broken and little used: Maneuvers, Group Flight, scrapper and pool taunts, Jump Kick, the redraw factor in pool melee attacks, War Mace, the entire Dominator AT. Other powers outclass their competing options: Energy Melee, Regeneration, Radiation Emission. The devs have fixed some problems such as Super Reflexes and Fire Manipulation but their progress has been glacially slow.
Sadly, the heroes outperform the villains in PvP. Brute rage is broken. Dominators are defenseless. Corruptors lack the power of the APP. Masterminds spend two minutes resummoning for three seconds in combat.
..which brings me back to the problem I brought up at the start of this thread, the developers failure to engage in Iterative Game Design. They have not adapted the game rapidly and decisively in response to game performance and player feedback.
And now it seems they cannot be bothered even to respond to the question. Id give this invention system a chance if theyd replied. You win the wager, Kitten.
Its been fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not a PVP'r by any standard, but a few observations since reading the entire post...
1)The coming of PVP in issue 3 (or 4, can't remember) has caused the problems the PVP crowd is claiming that is wrong with the PVP experience...
2)It's been stated in the past that the actual numbers of players that post in these forums is in the very low percentages. The actual feelings and concerns posted on the forums is not a true representation of the entire subscribed player base...
3)I have not read where you sent a developer a PM with your concerns or did I miss that. Calling out devs is not good form either.
4)Can I have your stuff?
Dragon-King First level 50 -- Fire/Nrg Blaster
(and to many alts to mention)
Protector