Rants, Forums, Lighthouse
By
0zymandous,
Posted on: 2006-12-13 19:34 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Then again, my personal goal is to be able to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip, even so far as spending all their frequent flyer miles.
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"He had fashioned his irony on the model of that hard, cold, cruel, smooth glittering black ice that one finds only in deep gullies of the loftiest mountains; it was said in the clubs that he had found seventy-seven distinct ways of calling a man, to his face, something which only the most brazen fish-wives of Billingsgate care to call by its name, without his suspecting anything beyond a well-turned compliment. "
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Thank you Paul. (It's Paul, right?)
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Then again, my personal goal is to be able to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip, even so far as spending all their frequent flyer miles.
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"He had fashioned his irony on the model of that hard, cold, cruel, smooth glittering black ice that one finds only in deep gullies of the loftiest mountains; it was said in the clubs that he had found seventy-seven distinct ways of calling a man, to his face, something which only the most brazen fish-wives of Billingsgate care to call by its name, without his suspecting anything beyond a well-turned compliment. "
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Thank you Paul. (It's Paul, right?)
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That would be me, yes :-)
(The quote, I should note, is Crowley, from "Moonchild" - the man did more than invent some DOs after all)
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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Then again, my personal goal is to be able to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip, even so far as spending all their frequent flyer miles.
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"He had fashioned his irony on the model of that hard, cold, cruel, smooth glittering black ice that one finds only in deep gullies of the loftiest mountains; it was said in the clubs that he had found seventy-seven distinct ways of calling a man, to his face, something which only the most brazen fish-wives of Billingsgate care to call by its name, without his suspecting anything beyond a well-turned compliment. "
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Thank you Paul. (It's Paul, right?)
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That would be me, yes :-)
(The quote, I should note, is Crowley, from "Moonchild" - the man did more than invent some DOs after all)
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I thought you were Paul, but my memory isn't what it used to be. I figured it never hurts to ask.
Has that quote been reworded and used elsewhere? It sounds really familiar...
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Heh, you're all correct of course. I never said that everyone who chooses to break rules they don't like is always a hero and all of society should back them up every time. It's even possible that someone who objects to a given law may be wrong to do so! I still don't think that means we should accept bad, stupid, or unjust rules.
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Ah, and there-in lies the rub. I don't think we should accept any laws that are unjust or unfair either, it's one reason I speak out quite vocally on such things in my own private journal, however the laws should still be followed even while you complain about it or rally against it.
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Has that quote been reworded and used elsewhere? It sounds really familiar...
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Not that I know of, unless they have added the Crowley's Novel DO.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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I don't think we should accept any laws that are unjust or unfair either, it's one reason I speak out quite vocally on such things in my own private journal, however the laws should still be followed even while you complain about it or rally against it.
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I'm cool with that. It's interesting (to me, anyway) to note that we don't actually have freedom of speech here; really, the only "laws" here are those governing what we can and cannot say or talk about. I wonder how many rules there are here that you can't complain about without breaking them ...
You are a better citizen than I. I don't have faith that due process will always change things for the better. I have no compunctions about breaking rules when I disagree that they should exist in the first place. Of course, I am always prepared to pay the proscribed penalty for my actions within a given system. But while such disobedience is "outlawed" by the system itself, I feel that others can observe my actions as being outside the system, and use that stimulus to reconsider, from an outside-the-system point of view, the merits of staying within the system. In other words, I don't like to let the system itself have the final authority in setting the terms of discourse.
Doctor you made some great points but I'll have to respectfully disagree on a few. 
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He turned cold. This is a job. He treats it as such. However, we don't want to be treated that way. I sent him a PM at one point, with much the same concerns the OP has. I will never make the mistake of sending him another PM again. His reply was cold, pointless, VERY politically correct, and quite honestly, I got the impression that he had taken classes on how to write form letters, or instructions on how to assemble furniture. For all I know this isn't how he actually FEELS, just how he came across, but the reply had no personality. Because it had no personality, it had no weight. No merit. I might as well have been talking to a machine.
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See I'll have to disagree here...this is fine for me. I'm not asking the community mods for humour or repartée or chit-chat. I basically have some questions I would like addressed; in a friendly manner is better of course!
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Some people may like this. Some people, like myself, clearly don't. I don't want to talk to a PR robot. I want to talk to a person. With personality, spirit, incentive, drive, dreams and goals. Someone with emotion. When I send a PM now, I send it to cricket. I don't think we need a dalek running the boards. We need an individual with personality.
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Doctor, I know I'm going to get myself trampled over this but I disagree. Look at our beloved CuppaJo. She had tons of chutzpah and it got to a point...there was some serious hero-worship going on, which to me, an outsider...seemed quite bizarre. 
I understand she did tons for the boards and community but perhaps there is a perception or want for the new moderators to maintain a distance from the board users.
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He may indeed be a great guy, a lively individual capable of human emotion, compassion, and expression of these things. He just needs to learn how to do this.. how to deal with being THE MAN, and yet still being a person.
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He is both I think. I've seen him be humorous in some spots while still being efficient. He has his job and he is going to do it darnit! To be truthful I personally am not a big fan of being chummy with moderators. Having been co-mod on several websites you too often get into favoritisms, he-said-she-saids and so on.
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The bad news.. is that a lot of damage is already done. I can only speak for myself, but I'm not really reading a lot of the boards anymore. By the time I PMed cricket about this (and received a well worded response) I had already become so jaded and daunted that I am just finding myself not really caring much anymore. I don't want to make a post just to find that it gets deleted later for some unknown and obviously uncared about reason. Then, to add to that, the recent debacle with the costume contest being bungled up in apparantly four different seperate ways really just gave me a feeling of no confidence in NCSoft at this point. The future may be brighter, but the damage is done. The community, in many regards has been partially destroyed for me, and I'll be the first to admit that I probably won't hold my account much longer because of it. Some damage can't be undone.
Zeus - god of damage control
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Wow! 
It certainly is your prerogative to cancel your account at your leisure Dr. I think you may be overstating the case a bit. In my eyes, logs of the previous forums have been kept and there were likely issues about the forums discussed internally. NcSoft wants its forum here moderated a certain way. We can still be wacky and so on every know and then (Glares at Tundara > _ > ) but I don't think we're going to see racy epistles and what not.
In the end though...this may benefit as the forums are, in the end, for discussing City of Heroes and City of Villains.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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Unfortunately rules are rules. They have to be enforced.
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All of them? Even questionable ones, or questionable interpretations of them?
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Since NCSoft owns the space, yeah.
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I am a by Gods customer and the amount of control I am willing to give a vendor has significant limits.
I am not particularly annoyed by the staff or the rules, but Christ and Horus in a crap game, folks, do you really go through life bowing to "the rules" this way? Accepting the dictates of authority because it IS authority, and telling others to do the same?
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Yeah, you're such a rebel. <eyeroll> Keep on fighting the man there. Maybe throw in a "the customer is always right" while you're at it. You're a customer, one of thousands. Theres nothing special about that.
If you aren't willing to abide by the conditions by which the business sets for use of its property, then don't use it.
Don't like the No Smoking policy in a restaraunt? Don't eat there. Allergic to shoes, but the local sandwich shop has a "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service" rule? Well, you can't eat there then. This is basic stuff. There's no oppression going on here. This isn't about "bowing to authority", its about the way businesses work. To use the property and services provided by a business, you have to agree to the conditions that business sets forth.
That doesn't mean you have to accept those conditions in all facets of your life. If you want to eat a sandwich in a park or at home while smoking and barefoot, you're perfectly free to do so. Just dont expect a business or anyone else to let you do so in their space.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
I don't really have any issue with Lighthouse per se, but I have had some of my butthead grade posts summarily deleted. To be specific, I responded to someone's commentary on the bizarreness of an avatar with *cries like a little girl* (meaning I was so scared of the avatar in question that I was reduced to tears) modsmacked!.
So I do tend to think it's a bit heavy handed on occasion.
Folks,
After reading some of the responses I found myself actually wondering why Lighthouse has NOT closed down this thread already! Ironic, no? After reading all of the replies, especially Lighthouse and DrZeus and BBhumeBB, I feel I have gained a greater appreciation for the task of Lighthouse.
Bottom line, he CAN close thread, delete posts, etc. at his discretion. I would like to see more personality and less heavy handedness, but he does have a difficult job to do and I appreciate that now.
Lighthouse - thank you for your work. I hope you really take to heart some of the changes being asked for here in this thread and yet still be true to your job. Maybe it is time to close this thread....
Everyone else - thank you so much for posting your thoughts, ideas, opinions, etc. For the most we stayed pretty well inbounds and showed that a lively discussion is possible without getting closed down. Please, always be open and respectful.
Thanks,
Lady Exxxotica
As it's getting on in the afternoon and I plan to play the winter event tonight if possible, I can't devote time to reading the 15 pages in this thread. I can only trust I understand the gist of the thread and the OP.
I've seen numerous threads with useful content and/or content I contributed in good faith, summarily deleted. And when I brought a particularly eggregious example to Lighthouse's attention in a PM, he advised I ought to repost the topic and reopen discussion. Sure, let me contribute some more so my contributions can be slapped in the face again! He also said the thread had been deleted in its entirety because somebody had been trolling in it.
I really just can't decide which of these two things are worse:
1) I give you my precious time, you squash it, and ask me to give you more.
2) Giving trolls the the (indirect but very real) power to delete threads.
BTW-- I'm with a recent poster who pointed out that we don't need mods who're brilliantly charming. I see no need for it, and have no particular issues with Lighthouse's online "personality." Disparaging his personality, even 'constructively' is obnoxious and pointless, and might be a legit subject for more private conversations, but is just dumb, when it appears here on the forums.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
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Heh, you're all correct of course. I never said that everyone who chooses to break rules they don't like is always a hero and all of society should back them up every time. It's even possible that someone who objects to a given law may be wrong to do so! I still don't think that means we should accept bad, stupid, or unjust rules.
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Ah, and there-in lies the rub. I don't think we should accept any laws that are unjust or unfair either, it's one reason I speak out quite vocally on such things in my own private journal, however the laws should still be followed even while you complain about it or rally against it.
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I guess the big question then is WHO determines if a law is unjust or unfair?
The Law Abiding citizen who pays taxes and supports the economy?
The Slouch who lives off of welfare and expects society to provide his every need? 
The Executive who feels that since his actions support the economy and he provides jobs to the masses he is above the Law?
Who determines what is fair and what is unfair?
Seryphim : Virtue : Empath/Archery Defender
Fueur-Engel : Virtue : Fire/Thermal Corrupter
I haven't even bothered posting since, Cuppa left. I'll get mod-spanked into obilivion. I mean even before, Cuppa left I was getting the post beating... Oh, I'm rambling. I have nothing to add here.
Much <3.
Mortifier
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Civil disobedience is just an excuse for breaking a rule.
It in no way should suggest that the person doing so shouldn't face the full punishment.
If someone means to try to relate it to forum moderation then I say to them go ahead and break the rules if they feel they have to but then accept any deletions, locks, or bans that result as the fully expected consequence.
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QFT
"Player First / Villain Second" - Dr_Hetero
"The real pros will never trumpet their experience. They'll lead by example." - Primal
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As for people who complain/state that their post disappeared (either in this thread or another thread), it is not because your post was in violation. The way the CoX forum software works, when you delete a post, all of the posts that are replies to that post get deleted as well. (I don't know how far down the reply path it goes, but I suspect it is quite far)
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My understanding of the forum engine (IANA UBB code developer), is that a thread is stored as a reply tree. Every reply is a sub-branch to what ever branch or root (OP) message that the reply is set to be "to". When you trim a branch, ALL replies under that branch, sub branch, and leaves, are deleted as well. I've actually tested to see if they simply got orphaned, and they did not. Requesting to view a sub-branch to a deleted message resulted in an access denied message.
"Player First / Villain Second" - Dr_Hetero
"The real pros will never trumpet their experience. They'll lead by example." - Primal
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I guess the big question then is WHO determines if a law is unjust or unfair?
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A little biased in your examples there?
It's the responsibility of each individual to determine right and wrong, dude. Society at large can and should try to establish a framework to bring the greatest justice to the greatest number, but a pretty "big picture" is small consolation to someone who's getting screwed right now, in this moment, in this place.
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As for people who complain/state that their post disappeared (either in this thread or another thread), it is not because your post was in violation. The way the CoX forum software works, when you delete a post, all of the posts that are replies to that post get deleted as well. (I don't know how far down the reply path it goes, but I suspect it is quite far)
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My understanding of the forum engine (IANA UBB code developer), is that a thread is stored as a reply tree. Every reply is a sub-branch to what ever branch or root (OP) message that the reply is set to be "to". When you trim a branch, ALL replies under that branch, sub branch, and leaves, are deleted as well. I've actually tested to see if they simply got orphaned, and they did not. Requesting to view a sub-branch to a deleted message resulted in an access denied message.
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I am aware of the rule. Both my post and the one that said "whoa! that's some avatar!" (the one I responded to) were deleted, so it is likely that mine was deleted as a sub-branch, but the initial post was hardly worthy of deletion itself.
I had a little rant one time over some minor issues. Everyone was talking calmly and rationally in the thread. Not once was a single swear used. The next day, deleted.
I think some mods here are waaaaaaaaaay more delete happy then others.
"Certain it is and sure: love burns, ale burns, fire burns, politics burns, but cold were life without them." - Romulan proverb
My Characters
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As for people who complain/state that their post disappeared (either in this thread or another thread), it is not because your post was in violation. The way the CoX forum software works, when you delete a post, all of the posts that are replies to that post get deleted as well. (I don't know how far down the reply path it goes, but I suspect it is quite far)
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My understanding of the forum engine (IANA UBB code developer), is that a thread is stored as a reply tree. Every reply is a sub-branch to what ever branch or root (OP) message that the reply is set to be "to". When you trim a branch, ALL replies under that branch, sub branch, and leaves, are deleted as well. I've actually tested to see if they simply got orphaned, and they did not. Requesting to view a sub-branch to a deleted message resulted in an access denied message.
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You can see how this works with threads if you click on "threaded" at the top of the page, and it shows how their are chains of posts. If the first one in the chain goes, they all do.
This is actually something that has improved since Lighthouse came on board, since he'll sometimes just edit out the offensive text of a post and post a warning.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
Well, maybe some wacky ossies degenerated the thread into a flaming feast while you were not looking. Nver know it could happen.
Sure, in such a case, they try to only delete the guilty posts, but errors can be made...
I don't think its be too bad and I think your post would have been better suited as a PM to Lighthouse and give him a chance to respond to you directly.
<QR>
I was a moderator for a film discussion forum for a couple of years. The community was literate and largely self-policing; nevertheless intervention was often necessary, and I started getting the reputation as the Tough Mod. I was, after, all, the only one who had gone so far as to actually ban a particularly abusive member.
I deleted a few posts that were beyond the pale, but largely I simply locked down threads after an explanatory post. I wanted people to see why the action was taken.
Predictably, in and among the posts praising some of the disciplinary actions, there were those that felt I had just taken a Zippo to the original Bill of Rights. More than a little upsetting, as I agonized over those actions. My Constitutionalist side argued with the part of me who felt a responsibility to the community, to keep the conversation elevated to a certain quality. Some things went on too long while I did that frittering.
In the end, I gave up. Certain of the posters were purposely pushing my buttons, seeing how far they could take it, and one morning I said, "You know... I'm not even getting paid to take this abuse," and I walked away. It was like getting out of prison.
This is likely the reason I don't post more.
I offer this in the spirit of hopefully illuminating Lighthouse's situation; there is a person behind that handle, doing a difficult, maddening job. Describing what he hopes to be helpful posts as "ego-boosting garbage" or that he hasn't developed a Board Personality - whatever that may be - are not, strictly speaking, improving matters at all.
In my current job, I replaced a person who had held the position for tweve years before she retired. She had her fan club, the people who loved her - I wasn't her, and therefore I was simply inferior, incompetent and unqualified. I was none of those things, merely different, and a year later, I have my fans.
It ain't an easy jobs, folks. Few people can agree with each other even in the relatively confined space of this thread; yet the mods, Cricket and Lighthouse are tasked with keeping all of them happy (or at least as many as they can). But there's a reason I looked at the "NCSoft Community is hiring" announcement and went, "Hey, I have some experience there," followed by a moment of clarity and a literal blurt of "ZOMG!!! NO!!!!!!"
MA arcs: #1669, "A New Breed Rising"
I am definatly not for censorship, however comming directly from SWG I can see where it is absolutly vital to get a handle on "rants" right from the start. Swg's forums allowed liberal ranting in thge interest of bringing a few good ideas to light. Unfortunatly if you look at them today 90% of the posts sound like 3rd grade recess fights. It quickly became the most horrific forums you can imagine, and still mostly is to this day. So in a way I have to applaud Lighthouse for making the tough calls and trying to keep the forums civil and friendly.
With all due respect, Cuppa was wrong about seeing the reasons people get mod-smacked causing people to flip out more than them not knowing.
As it is now, there's no sign telling us what the speed limit is, but we can tell it's a two lane highway in the country, so we can assume it's 55. Suddenly, out of nowhere we hit a speed trap and get ticketed without any warning. I'd like some clearer road signs and stricter enforcement, personally.
Honestly, sometimes I just post to see what I can get away with. It's so inconsistent right now that one day something I certainly would see as a flame stays as-is while something I think is just gentle ribbing gets deleted. In neither situation am I told I've done anything they disagreed with, so even if I'm "in trouble," I wouldn't know.
In an ideal world, there would be probations, bannings, and a place to point and laugh at them. Let shame and a heavy hand put people back in line. If you know that your forums posting access is in jeapordy, you'll be a little nicer.
Also, mod sass should be a bannable offense. That way, if you want to complain, you better have a darn good basis for your argument or you're getting into deeper trouble.
Shoot, the other day we had a NO PROBATION DAY where people were banned for the slightest offense. On a site where you pay for access, this became a big money sink for some very stupid people who just couldn't resist hitting that "Post" button without thinking it through.
It was like an early Christmas present.
For the record, this board has a lot more members than the CoH boards do and it works beautifully.
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Then again, my personal goal is to be able to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip, even so far as spending all their frequent flyer miles.
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"He had fashioned his irony on the model of that hard, cold, cruel, smooth glittering black ice that one finds only in deep gullies of the loftiest mountains; it was said in the clubs that he had found seventy-seven distinct ways of calling a man, to his face, something which only the most brazen fish-wives of Billingsgate care to call by its name, without his suspecting anything beyond a well-turned compliment. "
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Oooh, nice qoute! Where is it from? =O.o= The kind of eloquence... elociunce... bah, that word I can not spell, is truely beautiful to watch and read.
=^.^=