Rants, Forums, Lighthouse
By
0zymandous,
Posted on: 2006-12-13 19:34 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Civil disobedience is just an excuse for breaking a rule.
It in no way should suggest that the person doing so shouldn't face the full punishment.
If someone means to try to relate it to forum moderation then I say to them go ahead and break the rules if they feel they have to but then accept any deletions, locks, or bans that result as the fully expected consequence.
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Personally, I think comparing a posters right on this board to slavery is a HUGE insult to anyone who honestly suffered under such oppression. The comparison isn't only silly; it's disrespectful.
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I agree that the scale is completely different here. But are you saying that people shouldn't be responsibly disobedient in the case of a small-scale injustice?
We could probably come up with smaller-scale and much less resonant examples of injustice if you really want. I think BBhumeBB made his point very well. Maybe his examples were in bad taste, but arguing about that will get us nowhere. Agreed? If so, let's talk about the substance of his argument.
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I've not seen any injustice in regards to this thread which is Lighthouse (modding in general) and rants. I have to see proof of this injustice before any kind of supposed discussion can take place.
Someone needs to point out to me the rule that is just SO oppressive; because honestly, I just don't see it.
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You are more than free to vote with your dollar, and leave. Why is it so difficult to accept the rules of someone's house you're a guest in, regardless of whether *you* agree with them or not?
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I am not a guest in NCsoft's house, I am a customer in their store. Different relationship.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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I have worked out a response to the several posts which object to discussing trivial issues (like these boards) in conjunction with more powerful societal issues such as slavery or the civil rights struggle.
Too.
Bad.
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Well then I guess that's my reply to whatever your problem is with the modding of these boards or people's willingness to accept that modding. Too. Bad. Seems to work nicely both ways. Glad we could come to this understanding.
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One thing I'ma say though; I rather like how Lighthouse doesn't just delete or lock threads without *saying* something first.
I know some people might not understand >< but for me - Knowing *why* a thread was shutdown is invaluable. It feels... well more respectful. I know technically we as posters aren't entitled to a whole lot of that if we break the rules - but it feels better to not just have your post vanish into the void. A locked thread is still dead - and it lets you see what you need to avoid.
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I wanted to comment on this, because a few people are saying this.
First of all, I agree, it's great to actually say WHY some things are being shut down. It's quite respectful and it really helps.
On the other hand, this also illustrates my point... that lighthouse is in need of finding a bit of board personality. You see, this whole thing is rather new. When lighthouse first came on board, threads got shut down really fast, and there was no reason why. I, and a few others, complained about it and reccomended that we at least know WHY things are being shut down, since some of them were pretty random.
So... it's nice to see that he is responding to suggestions, either from others or from forum members. That's a great sign. It also shows however, that he was even more "all business" than he is now. I don't think he really treats people as humans now, but it used to be worse.. after all, he was kind of treating us like machines. If I were moderating a forum that was just a game, no actual humans on the other end, I wouldn't bother to tell people why I'm doing things after all. It would be just an emotionless job. Lighthouse DID act like that at one point, but he doesn't so much now.
So.. he IS loosening up. He's still not showing much personality, but at least he's improving.
Zeus - god of zero point scales
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People, my objections were to a sizable set of responses that we must all follow the rules, all the time, whether we find them equitable or objectionable or not.
That mindset is toxic, whether encountered in the large or small.
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And similarly, the inverse mindset (that freedom fighting must go forward on every battleground, large or minute) is similarly toxic. And probably is less than applicable in a private forum (where your first amendment guarantees don't even apply).
Tempest in a Teapot ring a bell?
Mr BB has brought up some interesting points... and I think there's some merit.
Personally, I'm a big fan of well written rules. Why? Because I hate limitations. I see all laws as suggestions. Things you're supposed to do most of the time. Fortunately, our legal system is such that intelligent people can do anything they please most of the time. This makes it so that well written rules don't NEED excuses to be broken. If you want to.. and you're capable enough, you can break them all you want.
You don't need to stoop to excuses like freedom fighting or civil disobedience. Of course, this is all in theory, and doesn't really apply to a forum.
Zeus - god of stuff
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And similarly, the inverse mindset (that freedom fighting must go forward on every battleground, large or minute) is similarly toxic. And probably is less than applicable in a private forum (where your first amendment guarantees don't even apply).
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He didn't say that. Being that he didn't say that the argument you use is flawed and innapropriate.
He's also not arguing from a first amendment point of view. He's saying that we're customers and that while we should respect the rules of the forum, we shouldn't shirk at the chance to yelp if we feel that, as customers, we're being curtailed unreasonably or overly-much.
"It's my store and my rules!" only goes so far.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
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For the love of jelly beans.
It's a freakin internet message forum.
Get over yourselves.
The moderation of these boards is in no way comparable, in any shape or form, to being enslaved or fighting some big human rights battle.
This[1] is private property. If we want to play here, we have to follow their rules.
Whether you consider it their house, or their store, it makes no difference. They are the ones that set the rules. We are the ones that (are supposed to) follow them.
[1]The game and the mesage forums.
evil_evil_evil:
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The problem is, if the law or rule is just "a little unjust", then theres a good chance you're not going to have a lot of support rallying against it.
[/ QUOTE ]Tundara:
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The problem with laws being just a little unjust, is that the injustice of them could alll be in your perception of them. Or, the law may not be unjust, but the law enforcers may be evil twisted little scociopaths, if you will permit to be a little extreme. Or, if you rather, the enforcers could be too heavy handed.
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Civil disobedience is just an excuse for breaking a rule.
It in no way should suggest that the person doing so shouldn't face the full punishment.
If someone means to try to relate it to forum moderation then I say to them go ahead and break the rules if they feel they have to but then accept any deletions, locks, or bans that result as the fully expected consequence.
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Heh, you're all correct of course. I never said that everyone who chooses to break rules they don't like is always a hero and all of society should back them up every time. It's even possible that someone who objects to a given law may be wrong to do so! I still don't think that means we should accept bad, stupid, or unjust rules.
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One thing I'ma say though; I rather like how Lighthouse doesn't just delete or lock threads without *saying* something first.
I know some people might not understand >< but for me - Knowing *why* a thread was shutdown is invaluable. It feels... well more respectful. I know technically we as posters aren't entitled to a whole lot of that if we break the rules - but it feels better to not just have your post vanish into the void. A locked thread is still dead - and it lets you see what you need to avoid.
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Gah, I agree and disagree at the same time! >.< It is nice to know why something was locked, that is for sure, but just having Lighthouses name in a thread gives that thread a huge ammount of attention.
Example time! =^o^=
There was a thread started shortly after Lighthouse came to us. This thread was located in the forums games section and it was about telling amusing anecdotes about telemarketers. Nothing harmless in that, right? I lacked a telemarketer story, but I did have one of a different though very simular sort. All in the interests of good harmless fun and humour the story was posted. And it caused a shift in the whole thread that eventually led to the thread getting locked and Lightouse firmly stating just why it was getting locked. I was very upset and distraught over the effect my post had on the thread as a whole. I worried that I had ruined what could have been a bit of fun and laughs for others with my post. That was nothing though compared to what happened next. I was struck in short succession by several private messages, some of them written in very nasty tones and words, about the things I had gotten wrong with my story. The events of the story took place when I was still in highschool and I could not remember every word or action taken and knew there were inconcistancies when the story was posted. If for a moment I thought I would upset anyone with the story I would not have posted it. >.< I sent Lighthouse a PM asking, practically begging really, that the thread be deleted.
But the damage had been done and I was a hair's bredth away from abandoning the forums I was so distraught by some of the reactions. So, I can not agree with Lighthouse posting why a thread gets locked. There are too many people who trail after the red names like lost puppies that otherwise would never dream of looking at a thread if not for the red name post.
Did I deserve the pm's? Maybe. There were some that were very polite and explained where I was wrong with a single certain fact, for it was a single line in the whole story that was the cause of the pm's. Some even went so far as to assume it must have been a naming error on my part, not that the line itself was wrong. But the bile that filled the others was very off putting, to say the least.
=. .=
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For the love of jelly beans.
It's a freakin internet message forum.
Get over yourselves.
The moderation of these boards is in no way comparable, in any shape or form, to being enslaved or fighting some big human rights battle.
This[1] is private property. If we want to play here, we have to follow their rules.
Whether you consider it their house, or their store, it makes no difference. They are the ones that set the rules. We are the ones that (are supposed to) follow them.
[1]The game and the mesage forums.
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QFT
Pinnacle -- Titans of Paragon
Blue 50s: 4 controllers, 3 defenders, 2 blasters, 2 scrappers, 1 tanker
Red 50s: 4 corruptors, 2 brutes, 1 dominator, 1 VEAT
Arc ID# 1427: High School Reunion
Arc ID#: 1671: Positron Revisited
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I still don't think that means we should accept bad, stupid, or unjust rules.
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I don't feel we should either. I just object to the use of comparing Slavery or the like with forum rules. 
=^.^= Let's face it, I break any number of forum rules every day, mostly those about staying on topic. >.< Mew is silly and lives off coffee, whatcha expect? =~.o=
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I never said that everyone who chooses to break rules they don't like is always a hero and all of society should back them up every time. It's even possible that someone who objects to a given law may be wrong to do so! I still don't think that means we should accept bad, stupid, or unjust rules.
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True, but there are ways of protesting that don't involve 'protesting' or angry rants. You could probably say just about anything to anyone depending on how you say it.
Then again, my personal goal is to be able to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip, even so far as spending all their frequent flyer miles.
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Let's face it, I break any number of forum rules every day, mostly those about staying on topic. >.< Mew is silly and lives off coffee, whatcha expect? =~.o=
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That maybe the forum rules would apply to you too?
I don't have any problem with Lighthouse.
I'd like to see all modded threads have justification posted somewhere. I also don't think it is necessary to have his modding posts show up in the Dev Digest, though it's not that big of a deal. If there were some way to easily not include them in the dev digest, I think it would be better.
Honestly, I don't see why people have such a problem following rules (except for the somewhat more obscure ones, i.e. I didn't even realize that this thread is technically against the rules). Most of them are there to keep threads logical and informative. People should be able to realize that their thread, which only reads "OMGOMGOGMG!1!!!!111 MY CTONROLERER GOT NERFTEDED BY STATESMANAS THIS GAME SUCKS NOW AND I DONT WANNA PLAY AGAIN" should be removed. I know these aren't the only posts being modded, but honestly things could go a lot further with the existing rules. The examples being used of "1 mile over the speed limit, that's not fair" are usually not applicable. The moderators let individuals get away with so much unrelated, illogical nonsense, for example the "I like Pie" comments.
I'm sure that some threads are "unjustly" moderated, but I am also sure that this is less than 1% of the modded threads. These can be taken up with a PM effectively.
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You must realize you have very few "rights" with anything involved in this game. Chief among them is the right to access the servers if you pay the fee, which is only guaranteed assuming you do not break any of the terms you sign off to every time you play.
NC would be completely in it's rights to delete every character you have, terminate your forum account, and probably turn the game into a chat room and still continue to charge you a subscription fee.
I know this isn't how anyone treats their account and this game, but it is the truth.
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Oh, and regarding Lighthouses personality, it just seems to me that Lighthouse is approaching this as the "face of the company" position and that is why all of his posts seem like Press Releases. There is nothing wrong with this, though it would be nice to see him posting in threads leisurely more often.
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Let's face it, I break any number of forum rules every day, mostly those about staying on topic. >.< Mew is silly and lives off coffee, whatcha expect? =~.o=
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That maybe the forum rules would apply to you too?
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Maaaaaybeeee they dooo?
>.>
I have been in the middle of reading the forum and trying to figure out how I was mod smacked as it was happening to me while I was still reading the boards.
But I will tell you based on some players inappropriate behavior weather in game or on the board sometimes Mod smacking happens. Sometimes well deserved other time maybe over the top. Things no one wishes to consider when saying anything is this game maybe being played by adults, but there are just as many teens playing and not all of them are allowed to run the streets as has been suggested to me and know about all different subject matter. I would argue the point as not so as this game isn't one of those kill everyone first person shooter etc style game, but a SuperHeroic MMMO.
Lends me to believe a different type of player plays this game and that said they don't always know all the different things that are sometimes talked about. Just food for thought YMWV.
Consider this my Rant so to speak. Mind your manners keep a civil tounge and hope you won't get Mod smacked on the forums, Or petitioned in-game from someone.
Peace out,
Valor
Quote:
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by Star Ranger 4 WIN LOSE OR DRAW, WE WILL FIGHT. WE ARE HEROES This is what we DO! |
Decide that this will be another day in which you Walk The Talk.
MA #14724 Operation: Discredit @American Valor
Sentinel Of Liberty SG
Tundara:[ QUOTE ]
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I still don't think that means we should accept bad, stupid, or unjust rules.
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I don't feel we should either. I just object to the use of comparing Slavery or the like with forum rules. =^.^= Let's face it, I break any number of forum rules every day, mostly those about staying on topic. >.< Mew is silly and lives off coffee, whatcha expect? =~.o=
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We're in agreement then. Cheers. 
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I never said that everyone who chooses to break rules they don't like is always a hero and all of society should back them up every time. It's even possible that someone who objects to a given law may be wrong to do so! I still don't think that means we should accept bad, stupid, or unjust rules.
[/ QUOTE ]True, but there are ways of protesting that don't involve 'protesting' or angry rants. You could probably say just about anything to anyone depending on how you say it.
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Sure. I don't think anybody here said anything like "Ranting is a great way to solve problems." BBhumeBB was responding to a few posters who said, basically, "Them's the rules! Don't break the rules!" His assertion was that blind adherence to all rules under all circumstances isn't actually a good idea. That's what I was trying to support. We're in agreement here. Cheers to you also.
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I'd like to see all modded threads have justification posted somewhere. I also don't think it is necessary to have his modding posts show up in the Dev Digest, though it's not that big of a deal. If there were some way to easily not include them in the dev digest, I think it would be better.
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I had a PM discussion with CuppaJo about this once. The reason why, to her, it was a bad idea (I agree as well) is that posting the reasons why threads get modded will result in people complaining. People will start trying to find that fine line between getting modded and it staying on the forums.
Many times (barring clear violations), forum moderation is a matter of "feel" and "gut" as to when a post crosses the line.
As for people who complain/state that their post disappeared (either in this thread or another thread), it is not because your post was in violation. The way the CoX forum software works, when you delete a post, all of the posts that are replies to that post get deleted as well. (I don't know how far down the reply path it goes, but I suspect it is quite far)
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Let's face it, I break any number of forum rules every day, mostly those about staying on topic. >.< Mew is silly and lives off coffee, whatcha expect? =~.o=
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That maybe the forum rules would apply to you too?
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Maaaaaybeeee they dooo?
>.>
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I'd say not enough if you can admit to doing it, and it still is allowed to happen. And, not just you, but you just happened to be the one to post. Personally, I find the idiotic spam just as annoying as "OMG TEH GAME SUX" posts. And, just like opening a thread about how WoW is off topic and would get mod-smacked, I think the stupid posts should get the same treatment.
You might think it's "cute". I think it's annoying and detrimental to the threads it's done in.
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Sure. I don't think anybody here said anything like "Ranting is a great way to solve problems." BBhumeBB was responding to a few posters who said, basically, "Them's the rules! Don't break the rules!" His assertion was that blind adherence to all rules under all circumstances isn't actually a good idea. That's what I was trying to support. We're in agreement here. Cheers to you also.
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Oh I thought we were basically saying the same thing. I find that, sometimes, misunderstandings are avoided by just re-phrasing something. That's all.
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Then again, my personal goal is to be able to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip, even so far as spending all their frequent flyer miles.
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"He had fashioned his irony on the model of that hard, cold, cruel, smooth glittering black ice that one finds only in deep gullies of the loftiest mountains; it was said in the clubs that he had found seventy-seven distinct ways of calling a man, to his face, something which only the most brazen fish-wives of Billingsgate care to call by its name, without his suspecting anything beyond a well-turned compliment. "
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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You are more than free to vote with your dollar, and leave. Why is it so difficult to accept the rules of someone's house you're a guest in, regardless of whether *you* agree with them or not?
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I am not a guest in NCsoft's house, I am a customer in their store. Different relationship.
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But in both cases, in order to continue being a guest/customer, you need to follow the rules that they have set in order to be a guest/customer.
If you don't like the rules, then complain all you want, but don't be surprised if, during your complaining, the store manager says "You are disturbing our other customers, please leave now."
Every time that you log onto the game (or the forums) you agree to follow their rules. Break their rules, suffer the consequences.
Let me make this clear, I completely support your (general, not specific) right to complain about something you don't like. However, doing it on private property runs the risk of you losing access to that private property. There are numerous other avenues which can be used which cannot be controlled by NCSoft/Cryptic.
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Uh, I don't think it is fair to draw a connection between the Civil Rights movement, Slavery, and the Underground Railroad with anything on the forums.
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I have worked out a response to the several posts which object to discussing trivial issues (like these boards) in conjunction with more powerful societal issues such as slavery or the civil rights struggle.
Too.
Bad.
People, my objections were to a sizable set of responses that we must all follow the rules, all the time, whether we find them equitable or objectionable or not.
That mindset is toxic, whether encountered in the large or small.
If these parallels offend you, I regret that you are upset, but not the offense per se.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.