Statesman speaks at serious games summit
By
2Negative,
Posted on: 2006-10-31 18:17 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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It's the cost of the functional aspects of bases people [censored] about.
Few people care about the aesthetics of bases. It's just not obviously an expression of one's self, especially if it's been designed by 20+ people, or by someone else. That's the crucial difference between costumes and bases.
If no one cares about the aesthetics of bases, it all comes down to function ... and there's not a whole lot of function in there.
And, FWIW, I don't see a lot of cloned heroes running around anymore. SGs built on very limited themes, such as everyone wears white and looks sparkly, tend to not last very long.
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You should see us War Gods in our dress uniforms. Talk about SNAPPY!
Ranked #1 SuperGroup on Infinity, baby! 
(Yeah I'm proud of my SG. What?)
- Green Lantern
"Say, Jim...woo! That's a bad out-FIT!" - Superman: The Movie
Me 'n my posse: http://www.citygametracker.com/site/....php?user=5608
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Statesman, thanks up front for responding to this thread and participating with the relatively peaceful round table dialogue we players have been having. It's appreciated.
I think there's some misinterpretation here - or my speech wasn't clear.
Well, a couple of people have indicated that the article's editing seems to have cut out or slanted valuable context to the quotes, which several people have accepted and attempted to take into consideration. I think the critiques persist because some of the slant of the article on the speech is perfectly in line with thoughts offered by red names in this forum. The article may be flawed, but it isn't out-and-out 'wrong' in portraying a summarized dev perspective on bases. The speech's coverage is notable only because there's a perception that you gave the speech freer than usual of corporate marketing restraints, not because you said something all that different than what is disseminated in more formal settings designed to market the game or placate players. It seems to a fair number of people that perhaps either (A) you viewed the keynote speech more as just another marketing venue and maintained hype talking points, or (B)that your internal Bases discussions are suffering from a little denial or defensiveness towards the people your trying to entertain. (A) does a disservice to the aims of the conference, and (B) indicates that the players aren't the only ones who aren't 'getting it' as far Bases go.
As just a resource for expressing something unique, base creation is on par tech wise with costume creation. Admittedly, there's not quite the same amount of textures, colors, etc., but there's still a lot of versatility. And the layout possibilities are endless.
Agreed, sort of. Kudos are deserved for the base editor, but "endless" is marketing speak. In addition, while there may technically be more possibilities in the base editor, the smaller details pack much less perceptual punch than the smaller details of the character editor in many people's opinion. The work it takes to finalize a character design with aesthetic concerns compared to what's required to finalize a base design with aesthetic concerns is on two very scales, especially since there elements to the base designer that are very counter-intuitive to set dressing in real life. The base editor is good, but it falls short of great because of it's technical limitations.
But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ
Your comparison is undermined by the fact that costume tokens are given out like candy and Influence is much easier to generate. Also, virtually nothing comes free with bases, whereas every character is able to make a very functional and distinctive costume design for free, right out of the box. Apple meet orange. 
But even if there's an architect: many super groups have a member who designed a single costume which all then use. In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think).
You're missing a crucial detail again. Even if a character has only one costume slot, he/she/it can have a personal costume and a supergroup-colored costume. How does this equate to bases? It doesn't really, especially when the opportunity cost to having a second costume slot is relatively small if an SG enforces strict costuming guidelines. There is no base slot 2, base slot 3, base slot 4, base slot 5. With costume designs, there is always - ALWAYS - an co-existing option to go exercise personal choices while submitting to the common good of the group. Bases afford most players less rights and privileges than the average apartment renter who sacrifices many liberties in order to be part of a particular building in a particular community.
The cost factor is, in part, a misleading distraction. Fixing the Prestige economy won't make people love Bases. It will, however, address a fat, stinky negative aspect of Bases, and is worthy of pursuing.
I really think it would best to not compare the two systems so closely any further. They only have superficial similarities in both form and function.
I completely agree with many of the suggestions raised in the Base Construction forum, as well as one's mentioned here, would improve Bases to some degree or another. Posi and I go through them at length; really, it's just a question of time & resources. Some things would take astronomically long to do - or perhaps there's something else even more requested or popular.
I think most people understand that and appreciate the juggling act the devs have to do with the multitude of conflicting priorities and limitations of production. The reoccurring theme in this thread isn't you folks at Cryptic perpetrated some horrible sin, but that in making a post-mortem of the Bases feature implementation you seem to emphasize it's lack of popularity is moredue to the fickleness of players, than the bugginess or kludgeyness of the product. There's several prominent functional design flaws and bugs with Bases that have yet to be fixed, in addition to some conceptual flaws. To the company's credit, you have begun to address them, but the finish line is not just around the corner.
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Very good post. It basically sums up everything I would have to say. I especially agree that the comparison between the base system and the costume system it really quite invalid, as they are very different from each other as you've pointed out.
Happy Birthday 
*Throws a fiesta*
@Bengal Fist - Freedom - Authority SG
Bengal Fist (SS/EA) - Thirt3en (Time/Elec) - Aussi (Elec/Shield) - Potamoi (Water/Time) - Parkr (Staff/Ela)
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You should see us War Gods in our dress uniforms. Talk about SNAPPY!
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Cold Front Dress Blues are pretty neat, too.
Costumes aren't based on their own currency system, and bases will have an in-game effect once they become raidable. They also will have an in-game effect due to IoPs. You also can get empowerments with salvage.. yet another 'currency' to it's own.
All of which are based on a currency system that is much more rare than influence/infamy, requires that you make sacrifices for influence/infamy, for a MUCH lower return, and prestige is untradeable except for a borked exchange rate and the phenominally irritating 99999 limit.
Actually, since they added the Overseer room, Medbay, and the tiny teleporter and workroom to the Create Room list, I don't think "too expensive" is the right word for it. A character in an SG of one, can actually rack up quite a bit of prestige on their way to 50 (even more if they can get a gift of inf, so that they could stay in sgmode).
However, decorations are quite pricey. Cheapest ones are 100 prestige, which isnt' bad, but they can go all the way to 5000 prestige! And that's for a non-functional decoration. Quite frankly, if it's non-functional object, then it should be the same price as all the other non-functional objects. Make decorations cost 100 prestige each, regardless of size.
And speaking of size.... could we please get some smaller-scaled decorations? Most of the Sewer theme have immense pieces of machinery that in no way will fit in a 2x2 room. And there's a bunch of Arcane objects (large head, large hands, green crystals) that are likewise ridiculously huge. How about some 1/2 scale, or even 1/4 scale, versions?
Now another problem we have is that if the SG is semi-active, it's not hard to rack up enough prestige to get 9 2x2 rooms on an 8x8 map. However, to expand, you'll need millions of prestige just for a larger base plot. I'm aware that base plots, and what you can put on them, is "balanced in cost" to reflect SGs having an Item of Power, as well as for Raid purposes. However, the Citadel of Pain isn't working, and doesn't look like it's going to be working til Issue 9.
So why not lower the cost of base plots? If not the Secure ones (which allow as many IoPs as you like), then how about just the Hidden ones, which is what an non-IoP SG base will have anyways. Since rent is going to be plot-size based, lowered costs for Hidden base plots can be reflected in the updated rent values (nothing too insane, I'd imagine, since Hidden plots only allow for one IoP). This will allow the semi-active SGs, as well as the slower SGs in the long run, to be able to expand their base size, and maybe even take a shot at the Citadel of Pain (more players doing something that takes a lot of resources to make!), and since they can only have one IoP in their Hidden base... well, it should be balanced. <_<
Oh, and perhaps we could add a new permissions item to the bottom of the permissions page: Public Viewing.
This would allow any player (of the same hero/villain side) to visit a Public base (a "public bases" option will appear on the Portal list when you enter one). The visitors will be able to wander around as they please, but they cannot click on anything (no poking in storage bins, no teleporter usage, no combining salvage on worktables). In order to keep lag down, the permissions list can have a "maximum number of visitors" that can be inside (this has no effect on SG/Coalition members), and the number of current visitors/max visitors will be shown on the Public Base Listing before you enter.
This would allow for neat stuff like the "maze" bases from the Halloween party on Test, or letting potential new recruits see what you have, or just for curious sightseers (or showing an impressive display of power, to keep it in villain RP). =^_^=
Dungeoncleaners! (ID#125715): Slay the Adventurers! Rescue the Monsters! Return the Treasure!
Peppermint Cat-- Lv50 Mewtant Ice/Eng Bls
[ QUOTE ]
It's the cost of the functional aspects of bases people [censored] about.
Few people care about the aesthetics of bases. It's just not obviously an expression of one's self, especially if it's been designed by 20+ people, or by someone else. That's the crucial difference between costumes and bases.
If no one cares about the aesthetics of bases, it all comes down to function ... and there's not a whole lot of function in there.
And, FWIW, I don't see a lot of cloned heroes running around anymore. SGs built on very limited themes, such as everyone wears white and looks sparkly, tend to not last very long.
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I disagree.
As a base architect, function is very important to me, but I cringe every time I have to sacrifice the form for a function.
Bases are fun to build, but often I find myself prohibited by plot size and/ or cost. Sure I can add a decorative room, but in doing so I would need a bigger plot, for example. So, until the SG can garner more Prestige, we make do with what we have until we can afford something flashier.
I think the main reason people complain about cost is because it costs a lot of Prestige to be able to combine form and desired function. For example, In CoH you can have 6 TP pads and not have one to every zone (Not that it's necessary, but I see many SGs load up on TP pads). Since each pad takes up a 1x1 block, having many TP pads takes up a lot of space, not to mention other items like worktables, storage containers, multiple control units, power supplies, and, if you want an IoP, a vault, anchors, etc. Quickly, the space and Prestige you had intended to decorate the base is taken up by items that provide function, sacrificing form for utility.
Base entry permissions aside, base decor is constrained when functional items are needed to add utility to the base. If the cost of rooms and plots wasn't so prohibitive, players could really open up some grand design schemes without being hamstrung by a small budget.
IMHO, besides the rent costs of bases, room and plot costs should also be reviewed. Either lower the costs across the board, or decrease the "bell curve" so people can afford some of the mid-sized rooms and plots earlier in their SG's career. This would really go along way to improve the "non-combat" aspect of bases, so players can make the lush virtual properties they dream about
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...there is no "Meanwhile at the Hall of Justice" view...I always liked seeing that...
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<snerk>
Oh don't think I'm making fun, Imagineer. I liked seeing that too. In fact I'm pretty sure I have Ted Knight's voice in my head right now.
"Dedicated, inseperable, INVINCIBLE!"
Yep, that's it.
- Green Lantern
"Say, Jim...woo! That's a bad out-FIT!" - Superman: The Movie
Me 'n my posse: http://www.citygametracker.com/site/....php?user=5608
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(btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
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I'd agree with the exception of SWG. Yes, the floor plans of the houses are fixed in Galaxies, but your ability to utilize the space within along with the sheer number of objects that you can use makes Galaxies the premier "Home decorating" game.
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In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think).
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That's true, but it's because the members of the SG have a choice. You're never required to run with the full supergroup uniform. You can choose parts of it or none at all. The SG doesn't override individual expression.
The base architect is an all or nothing deal, barring a liberal leadership that lets everyone edit the base. You don't get a say in how big the base is, what's put in it, or how it's arranged. If you WANT a base of your own to decorate as you like, you can't have it without penalize yourself by leaving your SG and creating your own personal SG. This is one of the places where CoX really falls down in the "personal space" department. There isn't any personal space it's all group space. Every other game out there would let you own your own home without barring you from also belonging to a "guild" and using their "guild hall" as well.
Imagine if joining a SG meant that your costume parts (not just colors) became something that matched that of the leader, and that in addition to wearing someone else's costume you had to pay prestige for the privelege!
THAT would make costumes analagous to bases.
My only complaint about costs for bases is the rent system.
I pay for my things every month plus I pay for my savings to pay my rent. It's some twisted property/income tax thing where if I do nothing, I pay again the next month (less the amount I paid the previous month's affect on my rent).
I can swing the build costs and rent isn't a problem I can't handle though I don't like its structure.
But I have to go to Atlas Park to pay it.
I'd like to setup a direct withdrawal account, please. Or can I mail that guy in City Hall a check? How about an escrow account with my mortgage company?
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Honestly.....Minimal cost for a Costume Change?
Its only seems that way because I like a great many other have a pool of Costume Tokens I haven't spent yet. Dropping half a million Influence....hell....dropping 80K to change a pair of glasses or boots.....that's not minimal, especially when you really need to run in SG mode to keep up with the rent for bases. Who are we, Donald Trump?
Give SG's rent tokens or something. If you change bases....give a free month of rent token like you do when you change the costumes. Hell.....fix the rent system so that if I do something foolish, like pay on time or a few minutes early, that I don't have to pay the same rent 2 weeks later. That's nuts.
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Intestingly, costumes have no gameplay value. They don't boost damage. They don't boost resistance. They don't boost defense. They're only for show.
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Costumes looks cool cost nothing (at first) to create and add numerous different pieces to the overall appearance over time. Costumes are as character defining as powers. To say they have no gameplay value or are "only for show" is kinda insulting to people that take pride in their costumes and the inter-relation between their costumes and their characters story/powers.
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As just a resource for expressing something unique, base creation is on par tech wise with costume creation. Admittedly, there's not quite the same amount of textures, colors, etc., but there's still a lot of versatility. And the layout possibilities are endless.
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The similarities end with the tech though and that's the problem. Please name 5 supergroups that can actually afford a nice base that also allow every individual member to edit the base. This is why people wanted apartments or private lairs for their toons and not just "Oh we'll make standard bases a lil cheaper for small SGs and solo folks".
Unlike costumes bases are as good as non-existant to anyone NOT given access to them. You can't just run up and explore anyone's base like you can look at anyone's costume. Chances are if you're in an SG you have absolutely no control over the base image or layout.
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But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
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"Evidently"? Influence is collected hand over fist. You can get 30,000 influence per lvl 50 mission on heroic...50's are walking around with 50-100 million influence! We're giving 10,20, 100,000 away every day to lower level people for costume contests or enhancers. Then there's prestige, where you have to trade thousands in influence for a few dozen prestige after a certain level since at that point it's one or the other. At best you can get a few hundred for completing a very difficult mission...that's enough to buy a handful of decorative items...
The only real use bases ever had was taken away after being called a "bug" aka being sent from the base to your mission door after defeat in the mission and going to base hospital.
The "Mission computer" has A mission...one mission.
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That's why some things (Personal Items) can be "crafted" by individuals and placed in the base. But even if there's an architect: many super groups have a member who designed a single costume which all then use. In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think).
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An SG costume is changed very raerly usually only when new parts are introduced and even then often the players have SOME flexibility with their costume. Also these are voted on. If SGs had to vote on everytime something got moved or placed in a base it'd be insanity.
Also if prestige or atleast SOME of it left WITH the player if/when they left their SG I think it's be more reasonable as well. I mean seriously If the avengers have one member or one hundred they'd still lose prestige if Captain America said "Screw you guys I'm goin solo"...But people wouldn't totally forget about Captain America if he went solo...
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And they're hidden away, effectively in their own dimension. Other people can see my costume and go 'wow' simply by my flying past. To see my base, they have to be in a coalition with me, or on my team while we go there (and for that to happen, we need to have a reason for them to go, other than me saying 'come check out the base'). They can't simply happen across it and go 'wow!'
When something has substantial show value, you have to be able to show it off!
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Lady you forgot that the bases have to actually be working at the time you want to show them off in order to do so
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Not that we want strangers free-roaming the bases either... hrmm...
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I never understood this logic. Why wouldn't you want people to come in an check out your base? Why not allow people to toggle "Open to the Public" on their bases? Not like people can move use or damage anything if they aren't invading/affiliated with the base somehow.
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Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ
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No, the costs mathematically exceed my ability to earn it. (as the member of a two person SG)
You don't see complaints about Costumes? May I suggest an experiment? Force all characters to only be able to use a single costume/body model when they start the game. Allow them to only change the color. Then eye-gougingly gradually allow them to earn the influence necessary to use additional costume items. After a few levels I might be able to afford one different boot type for instance. Now check back with the boards and see if they're compaining.
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You should see us War Gods in our dress uniforms. Talk about SNAPPY!
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Cold Front Dress Blues are pretty neat, too.
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Preachon witcha Dress Blues, sistah!
- Green Lantern
"Say, Jim...woo! That's a bad out-FIT!" - Superman: The Movie
Me 'n my posse: http://www.citygametracker.com/site/....php?user=5608
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I think there's some misinterpretation here - or my speech wasn't clear.
Let's take a look at costume creation. It's been embraced beyond belief by players...we have in game costume contests and events organized by you the players...Some say it's the best part of the game. The single most requested item in CoH is to make the costume creator standalone...
Intestingly, costumes have no gameplay value. They don't boost damage. They don't boost resistance. They don't boost defense. They're only for show.
Now, let's take a look at bases. Take away the teleporters, take away anything game related.
As just a resource for expressing something unique, base creation is on par tech wise with costume creation. Admittedly, there's not quite the same amount of textures, colors, etc., but there's still a lot of versatility. And the layout possibilities are endless.
But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
Let's turn to the idea of an architect. We foresaw that some people would feel alienated if they weren't the architect. That's why some things (Personal Items) can be "crafted" by individuals and placed in the base. But even if there's an architect: many super groups have a member who designed a single costume which all then use. In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think).
That's what the point of the talk was. I completely agree with many of the suggestions raised in the Base Construction forum, as well as one's mentioned here, would improve Bases to some degree or another. Posi and I go through them at length; really, it's just a question of time & resources. Some things would take astronomically long to do - or perhaps there's something else even more requested or popular.
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I have to disagree on two major points: one, that the issue with bases is a cost/benefit issue, and two, that bases are even remotely as customizable as character costumes.
Second one first: bases are *not* as customizable as character costumes are. As Lady_Sadako says, we wear costumes, but bases are hidden. But I would go farther: even if bases were publicly accessible, there are additional problems:
* The average person cannot as easily "admire" the design of a building from the inside. When you talk about "architecture" the average person can much more easily admire the external structure of a building from the outside, when they can take the structure in. Admiring the "layout" of a base from the inside is actually not quite as visceral an experience. Its really like roaming through a museum: you can admire the pretty things in it, but its not quite as easy to admire the layout of the building itself, unless you actually have a mind for architectural layout.
In the absence of being able to "take a layout in" layout is really much less distinct of a thing than the functional description of the base. Teleporters on the right, med bay on the left. Change the number of squares to the right or left, and you still have the same base, even if its architecturally distinct. More technically: people are much less interested in the explicit structure of a base in general, and more interested in its general topology.
* When people admire our costumes, generally, we're actually there. Even if people could view our bases, we aren't likely to be there to discuss it with them. We're likely to be actually out playing the game. Costumes are something that can come up in casual converation. Base architecture, not so much. So there are much fewer social opportunities to engage in meaningful base architecture dialog. What customization that exist doesn't propagate well to social interaction.
More critically, there is the issue of cost/benefit. The idea that the problem is a cost/benefit issue implies there are two ways to solve the problem: reduce the costs, or increase the benefit. I contend that the root of the problem is *not* solvable by increasing the benefit of the bases by any reasonable means, and therefore even if the cost/benefit ratio was significantly reduced by massive increases in benefit, there would still be approximately the same resentment to the costs.
The reason is one of threshold. Question: if I give you a choice between a guaranteed chance at one dollar, or a fifty-fifty chance at ten dollars, which would you take? The average person would probably take the fifty-fifty. And that makes sense: the expected benefit is five dollars, much more than the one dollar sure thing.
But if I offer you a guaranteed chance at ten million dollars, or a fifty-fifty chance at one hundred million dollars, this is a different story. Probability-wise, its the same game, but the numbers don't in fact have the same actual value. Ten million dollars is life altering. One hundred million dollars is life-altering just with more Ferraris. Many people - perhaps most - would take the ten million, and pass on the chance at a hundred million. That's because the ten million crosses a critical threshold where the net value is so high, it cannot be passed up.
In reverse: the cost for bases is, for some, extraordinarily high. Its extraordinarily high not for any numerical reason, but for a more subjective one: earning prestige - at high enough levels - steals influence. The cost of earning prestige isn't a numerical one, its a critical playstyle one: try to earn prestige, and you can find yourself unable to buy that enhancement you need. That cost crosses a critical threshold where the cost impacts normal play. Once it does that, there's no amount of carrots you can dangle that will make people not resent the cost. They may *incur* the cost, but they will always resent it.
The problem is not the cost/benefit ratio. The problem is the intrinsic trade between influence and prestige. Costumes do not have quite the same problem for three reasons. First, you don't have to decide what you are going to spend your influence on while you are earning it: you can choose to spend on costumes or not, without altering your playstyle either way. Not true for prestige, where you have to commit to earning one or the other, at least for stretches at a time. Second, beyond a certain point, the cost for costumes becomes exceedingly small, as the amount of influence you can earn becomes increasingly large. So the problem with costumes gets better over time, not worse. Bases, though, as they evolve and become larger and more complex, become increasingly more expensive relative to the amount of prestige you can earn. And third, costumes don't cost anything beyond the initial outlay. Bases do: bases have rent. The first time someone couldn't change costumes because they don't have enough influence, you would see a firestorm of complaints that make the base complaints look like cheerleading by comparison.
There is even something fundamental about how we view costumes and bases that I think override all of this. We identify with our costumes, they are a part of who we are. Bases are much less so. I think the average person will recognize the (in general) stronger identification with their clothing over their homes. Psychological experiments have demonstrated that there are certain situations where we will strongly self-identify with inanimate objects: for example, when driving cars. Much of road rage seems to be linked to the fact that we don't separate what other people's cars do to our car, and what the drivers of those cars do to *us*. Our language hints at a deeper connection: people cut *me* off, not my car; they hit *me*, not my car. This even happens in supermarkets with people and shopping carts. We identify with what we control, and our CoH avatars are no exception. That leads to identifying with what those avatars wear, because its what *I* am wearing, not *my character*. Bases do not have that fundamental psychological linkage, and so they are treated much more functionally. They simply do not have the same psychological "cover" to be non-functionally valuable.
In effect, on top of being much less expensive, much less restrictive in special costs, and much more customizable in actual fact, costumes are, when you get right down to it, not rational purchases, because they have value far beyond any material accounting. But you cannot "create" that psychological attachment where it doesn't exist, and it doesn't exist to that degree for bases. So bases will be viewed much more analytically by the player base, as a question of what it costs, and what its benefits are. But as previously mentioned, the costs are not just weighed numerically, they are also weighed against more intangible issues that are no less important to the playerbase, and even though they are subjective, still factor into a "rational" decision making process.
I think if you are attempting to generalize some sort of lesson between bases and costumes, seeing them both as just examples of "customization" you're going to end up with faulty conclusions. There are large unresolvable differences in how they are treated and work, that numerical tweaking alone cannot reconcile. The real lesson that bases and costumes teach is that you cannot dictate what people will find important, and what they are willing to pay for it. That level of social engineering is simply beyond what you should expect to be reasonable.
One note regarding "architects." We accept SG leaders setting the SG costume because we don't *pay* for the SG costume, and because we aren't required to wear it continuously, and because its really just a variant of our costume(s). That is not even *remotely* in the same category as players who believe that since they *pay* for base construction, they should have some *say* in its design. But Cryptic chose to make bases require 75 payors but only one designer. And even if you could design collaboratively, 75 people trying to design one base is ludicrous to expect would work in general. If bases had small customizable "apartment" rooms that players could have sole discretion on design for, separate from the base as a whole, *most* of the "architect" problems would probably go away. Because not many people really care where the teleporters are, they care that some part of the base reflect their personality, fully under their control, in exchange for actually funding the base itself.
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Posi and I go through them at length; really, it's just a question of time & resources. Some things would take astronomically long to do - or perhaps there's something else even more requested or popular.
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Like... vehicles?
>.>
<.<
Nah, it's probably just the abstract idea of "something else even more requested or popular."
<QR>
Hey States, any talk of PvE base raids?
Like if you do so many SG missions from the SG computer (yeah, that's not in either) against a specific NPC group, they get upset and attack your base?
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<QR>
Hey States, any talk of PvE base raids?
Like if you do so many SG missions from the SG computer (yeah, that's not in either) against a specific NPC group, they get upset and attack your base?
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I'd been thinking of that too. Biggest challenge is, like PvP base raids, it'll have to be scheduled. Nothing worse than a mob attack on a base when everyone's AFK.
Also, the mob spawn would have to scale dynamically. If it started with 12 people online, and 6 more showed, it'd be pretty dull.
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I completely agree with many of the suggestions raised in the Base Construction forum, as well as one's mentioned here, would improve Bases to some degree or another. Posi and I go through them at length; really, it's just a question of time & resources. Some things would take astronomically long to do - or perhaps there's something else even more requested or popular.
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I think what gets people is we don't hear about or see any timetables or real changes. I mean how long from planning to I8 did the Faultline renovation really take? I mean all the totally original stuff not things built off existing Faultline stuff. We keep hearing how time an resources prevent this or that and we keep hearing that your listening but aside from some rather superficial instances the proof that you're listening isn't too bountiful.
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Well, a couple of people have indicated that the article's editing seems to have cut out or slanted valuable context to the quotes, which several people have accepted and attempted to take into consideration. I think the critiques persist because some of the slant of the article on the speech is perfectly in line with thoughts offered by red names in this forum. The article may be flawed, but it isn't out-and-out 'wrong' in portraying a summarized dev perspective on bases.
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Don't get me wrong I'm sure atleast SOME SMALL aspect of that article is flawed but after 5 years of reading interviews and posts from Emmert I have no doubt in my mind that that article is 90+% accurate.
My base has all the goodies (tier 3 empowerment stations, inspire/enhancemen/salvage storage, telepads) but members seem to use only the telepads and little else. For the life of me I don't know why. The empowerment stations are very useful and they alone make the base worth the effort, IMO. I don't understand why my SG members seldom if every use them. I have a full and quite active SG membership.
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Intestingly, costumes have no gameplay value. They don't boost damage. They don't boost resistance. They don't boost defense. They're only for show.
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Yes, and everyone can see them. You look at my character, you see my costume.
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Admittedly, there's not quite the same amount of textures, colors, etc., but there's still a lot of versatility. And the layout possibilities are endless.
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And they're hidden away, effectively in their own dimension. Other people can see my costume and go 'wow' simply by my flying past. To see my base, they have to be in a coalition with me, or on my team while we go there (and for that to happen, we need to have a reason for them to go, other than me saying 'come check out the base'). They can't simply happen across it and go 'wow!'
When something has substantial show value, you have to be able to show it off!
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In essence, a show bird needs a stage to show off on. A show bird without a stage isn't a show bird.
Hence why costumes are great and bases are "meh".
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
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<QR>
Hey States, any talk of PvE base raids?
Like if you do so many SG missions from the SG computer (yeah, that's not in either) against a specific NPC group, they get upset and attack your base?
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I'd been thinking of that too. Biggest challenge is, like PvP base raids, it'll have to be scheduled. Nothing worse than a mob attack on a base when everyone's AFK.
Also, the mob spawn would have to scale dynamically. If it started with 12 people online, and 6 more showed, it'd be pretty dull.
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Well, yeah. Maybe if you logged into the SG computer, you got a warning that an NPC group was looking for you...
How's this for another idea... after so many SG missions, you get a discount on buying base stuff?
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<QR>
Hey States, any talk of PvE base raids?
Like if you do so many SG missions from the SG computer (yeah, that's not in either) against a specific NPC group, they get upset and attack your base?
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LOVE this idea.
Imagine this - you've been running PB missions from the SG computer all day, when you get the next tip. Only this one is in a different color ...
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"Hey <SG NAME>, we're hearing some nasty rumors about <VILLAIN_GROUP>. Seem's they are happy with you for taking down so many of their people. I'd suggest you dig into this and find out the truth!"
WARNING - Taking this mission will lead towards a raid on your base by (VILLIAN_GROUP). This raid will happen shortly after you finish this mission, and will be sized according to the number of heroes in your base.
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If you take that mission, you'll get the usual "Kill All in map XYZ" mission. You'll then get the clue that the group is already heading to attack your base! 10 minutes after mission complete, the raid begins.
Mob groups will begin to spawn in your base, and try to destroy the base by placing bombs. If they place X bombs, you lose. The groups will spawn in waves, with each group working towards a different room to place their bomb.
This mission could be done only once per week, per SG, to prevent farming. There are obvious balance issues, but the core concept seems pretty cool.
-- War
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I have no idea how they'd implement a permissions box.
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The irony is that there already is one. It's on the SG window. You can choose who to allow into your base. There is currently no 'Everyone' option.
And the more I think about it, the more I wonder why.
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I'll tell you why: Because the list you would get when you click on the base portal would be huge. There would have to be a seperate button where you could search for string/total prestige value/value of the base or something and pare down the results to something manageable.
That said, I'd love to be able to wander around random bases on the server to see what everyone is up to. I'm sure there are tons of beautiful bases that would be fun to wander around. The explorer in me says: Do It! The realist in me says: that's a very low priority for the devs.
Also, fix the "teammates can enter your base" option already. It hasn't worked for months and when it did it was quite useful.
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<QR>
Hey States, any talk of PvE base raids?
Like if you do so many SG missions from the SG computer (yeah, that's not in either) against a specific NPC group, they get upset and attack your base?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd been thinking of that too. Biggest challenge is, like PvP base raids, it'll have to be scheduled. Nothing worse than a mob attack on a base when everyone's AFK.
Also, the mob spawn would have to scale dynamically. If it started with 12 people online, and 6 more showed, it'd be pretty dull.
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Simple enough really, the PvE raid becomes just another mission on the computer. However, all functional items in the base cease working until the mission is cleared. Optionally, the mission could be dropped for a loss of prestige, or a loss of prestige earning power for X days, or something.
Scaling could be a challenge, but not exactly any different than the CoP trial. Also, like the CoP trial any bonuses should come at completion. Individual mob spawns would have to be XP free.
<QR>
Star Wars Galaxies allows (or did, haven't played since the major overhaul) far more custom look than the bases of CoX. It was, somewhat, popular to make interesting designs since every object was usable (IE had a 3D model you could place in your house) to build things. There were a few houses that people would go out of their way to visit (zoos come to mind), but mostly people would decorate for passerbys or shoppers (if the house had merchants) to just stop by, enjoy, and move on their way. It was fun just to run around, hopping into houses to see what interesting things they might have done, and then continue on with their adventure.
In CoX, that's 100% impossible. Period. Why spend millions and millions of prestige to build something ~50 are ever going to see? Instead, people make functional bases and leave it at that. My team and I would like to build huge rooms "for play" and each of us have personal rooms, but since there are only four of us, we spend every prestige point on needed items. Heck, we just rolled back our first plot upgrade because rent would have made us completely broke.
Four people, almost nightly play for all since launch, adding all alts in as soon as possible and almost always playing in SG mode yeilds about four million prestige, not counting the money "wasted" on rent (at least it did for us). We finally have enough money to have nice things. In another four million, if we're all still here, maybe we can enjoy seperate rooms... maybe.
We love our base. We want to do more to our base. Make them PvE interactive. Make PvP possible for small groups like us. Make it so we can show off our bases to the general public. PLEASE!!! Don't give up on bases. We enjoy them, a lot. We just want them to be more...