Statesman speaks at serious games summit
By
2Negative,
Posted on: 2006-10-31 18:17 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Ok so here's a question Lady_Sadako >.> I think you've got a good point here - but how do we make them more visible without running out of landscape nor having people in our bases when we don't want them there?
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I don't mind having people in the base. It's not like they can harm anything.
I suggest an option to make the base publicly accessible, and a point from which we can enter all publicly accessible bases. For example, a 'visit base' button could be added to the list of SGs that the guy in City Hall shows you.
Cost isn't the issue nearly so much as exposure is, IMO. Why would people invest in something impressive if nobody else ever got to see it? To use a silly example, would people bother with elaborate costumes if other players had to arrange to wear special glasses in order to see them?
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Ok so here's a question Lady_Sadako >.> I think you've got a good point here - but how do we make them more visible without running out of landscape nor having people in our bases when we don't want them there?
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Over in another <un-named at this time> MMO, you could set permissions on your apartment, allow anyone access, allow friends only, allow none. You could also allow/allow none the ability to move stuff around.
I had some fun re-arranging the hubby's furniture one day.
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Over in another <un-named at this time> MMO, you could set permissions on your apartment, allow anyone access, allow friends only, allow none.
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The one problem I foresee with simply allowing anyone access is that the pop-up list of bases that you could enter (when you click on the base portal) would be half a mile long. But maybe that wouldn't be a problem in practice.
It's bizarre, really. Everyone can see my costume, but as it stands now, I have no way to allow everyone to see my base.
EDIT: Dammit, now I want to be able to let anyone in! Imagine if we could just stand in Atlas and yell 'Party in the (SG Name Here) Base!' and let everyone come who wanted to! We could even have 'Maze of Doom' contests as well as costume contests!
I have no idea how they'd implement a permissions box.
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Maybe just a seperate 'set permissions' click at the bottom that takes the leader to a seperate menu... that way it wouldn't be tacked onto the list of all the coalitioned bases?
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I have no idea how they'd implement a permissions box.
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The irony is that there already is one. It's on the SG window. You can choose who to allow into your base. There is currently no 'Everyone' option.
And the more I think about it, the more I wonder why.
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I have no idea how they'd implement a permissions box.
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The irony is that there already is one. It's on the SG window. You can choose who to allow into your base. There is currently no 'Everyone' option.
And the more I think about it, the more I wonder why.
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Shows how much I play around with that...
It's the cost of the functional aspects of bases people [censored] about.
Few people care about the aesthetics of bases. It's just not obviously an expression of one's self, especially if it's been designed by 20+ people, or by someone else. That's the crucial difference between costumes and bases.
If no one cares about the aesthetics of bases, it all comes down to function ... and there's not a whole lot of function in there.
And, FWIW, I don't see a lot of cloned heroes running around anymore. SGs built on very limited themes, such as everyone wears white and looks sparkly, tend to not last very long.
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Over in another <un-named at this time> MMO, you could set permissions on your apartment, allow anyone access, allow friends only, allow none.
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The one problem I foresee with simply allowing anyone access is that the pop-up list of bases that you could enter (when you click on the base portal) would be half a mile long. But maybe that wouldn't be a problem in practice.
It's bizarre, really. Everyone can see my costume, but as it stands now, I have no way to allow everyone to see my base.
EDIT: Dammit, now I want to be able to let anyone in! Imagine if we could just stand in Atlas and yell 'Party in the (SG Name Here) Base!' and let everyone come who wanted to! We could even have 'Maze of Doom' contests as well as costume contests!
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In EQ2, the same hotel door offers access to all rooms in the hotel that are open to the public. IIRC, it placed yours at the top and a scroll list underneath.
Here, it could be a menu prioritizing "your SG" "your coalition SG's" "Your Friends' SG's" and then all others.
Supergroups could then grant access rights (but not container access) to supergroup members, coalition memebers or all.
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Other really excellent ideas have been offered that would have been easy to create, but have also been ignored.
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I would not presume that any of our ideas are "easy". One thing I've learned from being a coder, most of the time you can't really tell how difficult something is until you know the legacy code.
I would not assume the devs are ignoring us. This is all a complex cost/benefit analysis. Remember, most of the game is not bases, so significant effort put into bases is benefiting a minority of the game. For example, if the choice comes down to adding some features to bases or making missions more dynamic, I'd choose the mission upgrades without question.
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JJ, thank you for injecting sound comments into an emotional topic.
- Green Lantern
"Say, Jim...woo! That's a bad out-FIT!" - Superman: The Movie
Me 'n my posse: http://www.citygametracker.com/site/....php?user=5608
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Supergroups could then grant access rights (but not container access) to supergroup members, coalition memebers or all.
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Similarly, we could allow anyone who wanted to to come in, but not to use the teleporters. Which would deal with the obvious problem of an open player base becoming Shortcut Central.
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Other really excellent ideas have been offered that would have been easy to create, but have also been ignored.
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I would not presume that any of our ideas are "easy". One thing I've learned from being a coder, most of the time you can't really tell how difficult something is until you know the legacy code.
I would not assume the devs are ignoring us. This is all a complex cost/benefit analysis. Remember, most of the game is not bases, so significant effort put into bases is benefiting a minority of the game. For example, if the choice comes down to adding some features to bases or making missions more dynamic, I'd choose the mission upgrades without question.
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JJ, thank you for injecting sound comments into an emotional topic.
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Yes, it IS something to stress here. Some of the core CoH/CoV code is 5 years old- that's ancient in gaming standards, and any coding change is with substantial risk. Time and energy has to be balanced on the value to the customer.
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But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
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Wow 
thanks for the responce Jack, it's just that no one ever complains about costumes costs because you can make millions of influence/infamy in a matter of hours, an example is in RV, you get 50121 influence per pill box turret kill, in sg mdoe, you only 298 prestige and thats only if your soloing and if you've done all of the damage yourself, plus I've gotten influence as high as over 100k inf at the end of a story arc, while I'll only get 300-500 tops prestige in sg mode, I personaly think if prices for all items ( i.e. plot upgrades, control/power items, etc.. were reduced by half, and if prestige income was increased so it would be half of what you would make when not being in sg mode would improve that. Also I hope rent will be better in i8, I have a level 50 sg that has a functioning base and its not very active sometimes, one person alone cant pay for all of that. One more thing that should looked at turnign in prestige at atlas park city hall, the exchange rate is horrible. I think that if thier were a series of 6 personal prestige badges added in, it would encourage people tooo be in sgs more and too stay in sg mode.
My Lego Models http://www.flickr.com/photos/30369639@N07/ lemur lad: God you can't be that stupid... I'm on at the same time as you for once, and not 20 minutes into it you give me something worth petitioning?Lady-Dee: Hey my fat keeps me warm in the winter and shady in the summer.
<qr>
My biggest complaint about bases isn't the cost - it's the benefit from that cost that most SG's see.
Currently, bases provide minimal in-game benefit - teleporters that save a minute or two, rez rings and storage. CoV adds the special TF from the mission computer.
I personally could care less about the aesthetics of my bases (although, thanks to some dedicated members, they do look cool), I want to see more of a benefit from having a base.
That mission computer is pretty empty right now - how about allowing SG's to start all TF's from there provided someone in the SG did it previously (SG badge). Likewise, Police Band missions should be accessible from the SG computer. All of these should be flagged to generate some extra prestige when in SG mode to encourage groups to use their base.
Likewise, the ability to flag your base as "public", as suggested, would be quite cool. Some people have created very cool bases. Others are, well, not so cool. Who care? Show them off! Add a guestbook item that would allow visitors to leave comments.
People complain about costs when the benefits they get are out of proportion to that cost. Give us more benefits to having a base, more utility, more reasons to HAVE that base. Right now, there just isn't enough.
-- War
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I think there's some misinterpretation here - or my speech wasn't clear.
Let's take a look at costume creation. It's been embraced beyond belief by players...we have in game costume contests and events organized by you the players...Some say it's the best part of the game. The single most requested item in CoH is to make the costume creator standalone...
Intestingly, costumes have no gameplay value. They don't boost damage. They don't boost resistance. They don't boost defense. They're only for show.
Now, let's take a look at bases. Take away the teleporters, take away anything game related.
As just a resource for expressing something unique, base creation is on par tech wise with costume creation. Admittedly, there's not quite the same amount of textures, colors, etc., but there's still a lot of versatility. And the layout possibilities are endless.
But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
Let's turn to the idea of an architect. We foresaw that some people would feel alienated if they weren't the architect. That's why some things (Personal Items) can be "crafted" by individuals and placed in the base. But even if there's an architect: many super groups have a member who designed a single costume which all then use. In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think).
That's what the point of the talk was. I completely agree with many of the suggestions raised in the Base Construction forum, as well as one's mentioned here, would improve Bases to some degree or another. Posi and I go through them at length; really, it's just a question of time & resources. Some things would take astronomically long to do - or perhaps there's something else even more requested or popular.
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Statesman, you didn't mention this, but its something that needs to be remembered, and shouldn't be minimized.
Cryptic has failed to deliver an advertised feature of CoV in a working format a full callendar year after the game went live. Had the Cathedral of Pain and Base Raids showed up in anything vaguely resembling a timely manner, there would probably be a much higher level of interest in Bases, despite the flaws in the system that many posters have listed here. For whatever reason, whether it be lack of staff resources, focus shifting to other priorities or indeed other projects at Cryptic, this is a pretty big failure on Cryptic's part.
As for the comparison between costumes and bases. Well, as others have pointed out, costumes are far cheaper. Furthermore, our costumes are visible to anyone in the gameworld, regardless of if I'm teamed with them or not. I can be standing at Ghost Falcon buying enhancements and see other people and both give and receive compliments and feedback. Or I can participate in an informal social activity like a costume contest. Costumes are something that can be shared within the normal structure of the gameworld. Bases, on the other hand, are divorced from that gameworld.
Futhermore, Costumes are individual. While its true that some SGs have SG Uniforms, I've never seen an SG that requires that everyone use the uniform for all their costume slots. Even for uniform using SGs, the individual had plenty of oppertunity to experiment and personalize a costume. In fact, this illustrates a key difference between bases and costumes. Everyone can have both a group identity costume, and individual costumes. The obvious parallel for bases would be to implement personal rooms within SG bases, as has been suggested in this thread.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
One thing I want to add is that although there is a fee to change your costume, you don't have to pay rent or upkeep every few weeks based on size, etc or face having to run around in civvie clothes.
Once you pay for something, you shouldn't have to keep paying for it. It's almost like CoH Rent-A-Center...only you keep renting to own with no chance to actually ever "own" anything.
But you do pay taxes on certain things you own, like cars and houses.
-- War
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Other really excellent ideas have been offered that would have been easy to create, but have also been ignored.
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I would not presume that any of our ideas are "easy". One thing I've learned from being a coder, most of the time you can't really tell how difficult something is until you know the legacy code.
I would not assume the devs are ignoring us. This is all a complex cost/benefit analysis. Remember, most of the game is not bases, so significant effort put into bases is benefiting a minority of the game. For example, if the choice comes down to adding some features to bases or making missions more dynamic, I'd choose the mission upgrades without question.
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Bolded by me. Most of the game may not be bases but Mr. Emmert did say that they spent more time on developing bases than on any other feature of the game.
Where does cost/benefit fit into that equation?
As for bases (this is for anyone reading this post) in the main SG I belong to there is one "base monkey" to build and decorate and he's done a damned good job of it. However, I have no input.
We're told not to create certain things at the worktables because they don't need it or whatever. Or told to create certain things that they do need. I still have no clue how worktables work since I don't have the freedom to just play around with them.
We're discouraged from adding personal items. I think because only the owner can delete them. I may be wrong there, but that's the impression I got. The leaders don't want a bunch of crap all over, and I can't blame them, because they can't get rid of it. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to place something only to have a leader delete it.
Bases mean nothing to me. Going there instead of the ER means I have to rest or wait for my HP and End. to fill up. If I want to buy inspirations all they sell is the lowest tier heal and end. isnpirations. I can get those from contacts and have more selection.
I can never keep track of which teleporters go where and always have to click on them to see which is which, so it's just easier to go where I'm going the way I always have before bases came in.
CoP isn't working, so no IoPs or raiding.
Other than meeting there before teaming up, what purpose do bases serve me? None, really. I lived without them before they came in, I can live without them if they took them out.
Personally, I'd have had more enjoyment from an apartment. Maybe no one could enter it and see it, but at least *I* built and decorated it. That's more than I'm getting from bases at the moment, and it's sad, considering how much work, and time, the devs put into them. 
Edited to add, and if there were no bases, I'd have a hell of a lot more infamy on my villain than I do atm. That's another thing I dislike about bases, the exchange rate of inf/prestige, and getting no inf. at all after a certain level. That's not any way to get me to like bases.
I'm really interested in there being some kind of personal Lair option that we can use our Influence or Infamy to make. Reason being it gives everyone the option to use the Base Builder and design things. Some SG's are run by people that act like Cartman in the WoW episode of Southpark. They have to have control over everything from the base design, to the costume costumes, to the way raids are run, etc. I'm seriously considering leaving one of my SGs for this very reason.
The game is supposed to be about having fun, not listening to someone bark orders on Teamspeak and get pissy if you don't "play the way they want you to". Base raids to me are fun when people aren't pinned down in a pit in the base as either defending the base or raiding the base. To me, keeping another SG stuck in a pit for 30+ mins is boring. It's not challening. I'd rather have them running around the base and going after them. That's a challenge, that's fun to me. Same would apply if we were raiding another base I hate zoning into the base and being instantly killed because the base raid bug with the same spawn points STILL isn't fixed. Whole SG zones into base and everyone is waiting to stick us to the floor and instantly kill us.
That's why it would be nice to make our own little apartments, caves, or whatever. We can invite other toons to come look, part, but it wouldn't be something that can be raided, just for show just like our costumes. Our own MTV cribs like place to be seen. This will let those of us who are in dictatorship SGs have a chance to use the Base builder to make places for our toons that are just cosmetic and give us no more powers, etc.
Ill be honest...I make costumes that I think are cool but that others think are cool....nothing makes me happier when I get a tell saying "cool costume" if I make a costume and don't hear that at least once in a while then I stop wearing or redesign the costume. You cant 'SEE' other peoples bases.
In Asheron's Call you could go into another person or Guilds base and look around. It was a physical place on the map as well. I really cant see that working in this game...If you create your own entrance and physcially place that on the game map that would be cool....there is no "Meanwhile at the Hall of Justice" view...I always liked seeing that...
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(<@.@>; and I think its awesome that States is reading this thread. I shouldn't be surprised at all mind you >.> but I am <,< <. .> ahem - "cool")
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/signed, Mist!
Thanks for taking time to drop a response, States. I don't wanna get mushy but you certainly know what kind of passion the CoX fanbase has. For good or else, this game you helped create REALLY means a lot to most of its players. You're certainly seeing some of it now.
See you around Paragon, Jack.
- Green Lantern
"Say, Jim...woo! That's a bad out-FIT!" - Superman: The Movie
Me 'n my posse: http://www.citygametracker.com/site/....php?user=5608
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Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
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But we complain about the costs of the bases...
Lets see...the costs of costumes:
The influence you earn playing from lvl 1 to 30 is more than enough to cover any costume pieces that you could dream of. So, by lvl 30 you can have access to *all* costume features, and the charge is a one time cost.
The costs of bases:
10 people playing from lvl 1 to 50 in SG mode may make 5 million prestige (but nowhere near enough influence to cover the costs of your enhancements). What will this buy? well, for starters you will at best be able to make a functional base. You won't have anywhere near enough prestige to upgrade your plot more than once, to have the higher end components, etc. AND, not only is it a large upfront cost, but we have to pay rent on it as well. Let me get this straight...not only do we have to *purchase* our plots, but we have to pay rent on them too?
Don't get me wrong, I think the prices to *purchase* items in bases, while high, is okay for a larger group. If I was in a small SG that didn't have many players, or had many players that needed the inf, the costs of fully furnishing a completely functional base would be rather difficult.
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One thing I want to add is that although there is a fee to change your costume, you don't have to pay rent or upkeep every few weeks based on size, etc or face having to run around in civvie clothes.
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Although I understand the game mechanic philosophy behind rent, I have to agree that removing rent would go a long, long way toward making bases 'feel' less expensive.
I like the thought of adding an 'everyone' switch to the permissions of who can enter your base, and adding a central location to access these public bases. Assuming, of course, that the kick from base bug is eliminated.
Mentioning the lack of CoP trials and Base raids begs the question 'Should there be prestige compensation for each 3 month period these items remain non-functional?' Kinda undecided on that one.
Functionally speaking, I really think the devs are missing a ton of wonderful oppportunities in not having near constant releases to the mission computer. Especially missions that allow multiple teams like the CoP trial. Or special event missions that might appear only once or twice a month, or lonly when certain things are accomplised (certain SG badges earned or what have you). Even more mundane newspaper/police band type missions that gave out bonus prestige if taken from the mission computer would be outstanding.
I can't remember the last time I payed for a costume change anyway.
Give out free base tokens 
@Bengal Fist - Freedom - Authority SG
Bengal Fist (SS/EA) - Thirt3en (Time/Elec) - Aussi (Elec/Shield) - Potamoi (Water/Time) - Parkr (Staff/Ela)
Statesman, thanks up front for responding to this thread and participating with the relatively peaceful round table dialogue we players have been having. It's appreciated.
I think there's some misinterpretation here - or my speech wasn't clear.
Well, a couple of people have indicated that the article's editing seems to have cut out or slanted valuable context to the quotes, which several people have accepted and attempted to take into consideration. I think the critiques persist because some of the slant of the article on the speech is perfectly in line with thoughts offered by red names in this forum. The article may be flawed, but it isn't out-and-out 'wrong' in portraying a summarized dev perspective on bases. The speech's coverage is notable only because there's a perception that you gave the speech freer than usual of corporate marketing restraints, not because you said something all that different than what is disseminated in more formal settings designed to market the game or placate players. It seems to a fair number of people that perhaps either (A) you viewed the keynote speech more as just another marketing venue and maintained hype talking points, or (B)that your internal Bases discussions are suffering from a little denial or defensiveness towards the people your trying to entertain. (A) does a disservice to the aims of the conference, and (B) indicates that the players aren't the only ones who aren't 'getting it' as far Bases go.
As just a resource for expressing something unique, base creation is on par tech wise with costume creation. Admittedly, there's not quite the same amount of textures, colors, etc., but there's still a lot of versatility. And the layout possibilities are endless.
Agreed, sort of. Kudos are deserved for the base editor, but "endless" is marketing speak. In addition, while there may technically be more possibilities in the base editor, the smaller details pack much less perceptual punch than the smaller details of the character editor in many people's opinion. The work it takes to finalize a character design with aesthetic concerns compared to what's required to finalize a base design with aesthetic concerns is on two very different scales, especially since there elements to the base designer that are very counter-intuitive to set dressing in real life. The base editor is good, but it falls short of great because of its technical limitations.
But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ
Your comparison is undermined by the fact that costume tokens are given out like candy and Influence is much easier to generate. Also, virtually nothing comes free with bases, whereas every character is able to make a very functional and distinctive costume design for free, right out of the box. Apple meet orange. 
But even if there's an architect: many super groups have a member who designed a single costume which all then use. In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think).
You're missing a crucial detail again. Even if a character has only one costume slot, he/she/it can have a personal costume and a supergroup-colored costume. How does this equate to bases? It doesn't really, especially when the opportunity cost to having a second costume slot is relatively small if an SG enforces strict costuming guidelines. There is no base slot 2, base slot 3, base slot 4, base slot 5. With costume designs, there is always - ALWAYS - an co-existing option to go exercise personal choices while submitting to the common good of the group. Bases afford most players less rights and privileges than the average apartment renter who sacrifices many liberties in order to be part of a particular building in a particular community.
The cost factor is, in part, a misleading distraction. Fixing the Prestige economy won't make people love Bases. It will, however, address a fat, stinky negative aspect of Bases, and is worthy of pursuing.
I really think it would best to not compare the two systems so closely any further. They only have superficial similarities in both form and function.
I completely agree with many of the suggestions raised in the Base Construction forum, as well as one's mentioned here, would improve Bases to some degree or another. Posi and I go through them at length; really, it's just a question of time & resources. Some things would take astronomically long to do - or perhaps there's something else even more requested or popular.
I think most people understand that and appreciate the juggling act the devs have to do with the multitude of conflicting priorities and limitations of production. The reoccurring theme in this thread isn't you folks at Cryptic perpetrated some horrible sin, but that in making a post-mortem of the Bases feature implementation you seem to emphasize it's lack of popularity is more due to the fickleness of players, than the bugginess or kludgeyness of the product. There's several prominent functional design flaws and bugs with Bases that have yet to be fixed, in addition to some conceptual flaws. To the company's credit, you have begun to address them, but the finish line is not just around the corner.
Ya know what another thing I just thought of would help too?
PVE base raids that you could bring non-SG members on.
I admit, figuring out how to make PVE base raids fun, enjoyable, and not exploitable would be difficult... but defending your base could be an absolute blast - and teammates not in your SG could check it out too.
Also - this could solve the Window problem imho...
Give us the option to build our base "Outdoors" - what I mean is; rather than giving us a purely indoor setting; let us have an outdoor environment - and then the base be within that environment. Thus windows just need to be holes in the walls.
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