City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Gauntlet and Taunt Auras don't work on AVs anymore

Aett_Thorn

By Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2006-10-15 21:38 in Tankers

 

Posted

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Poster: Vox_Populi
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I haven't noticed this problem because I always use Taunt on AVs, but I hope a Dev comments on it. Hopefully, if Gauntlet doesn't work on AVs at all it's just a bug that will be fixed. If AVs just resist Gauntlet when their "triangles" are up, well, that would still anger a lot of people but at least it would make a little sense, since Controllers face the same problem (and at least we still have Taunt.)
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It would be nice if this discussion could be done with less whining and self-loathing, though.

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True but then I remember that Tanker attacks had a bug that wasn't letting them hit moving targets for 3-6 months so there is a bit of a vibe that Tanker concerns are on a "When hell freezes over" schedule that makes some of us cranky.

I sent this PM to Castle and Positron but I'm not holding my breath on a reply since it involves the Tanker AT.

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A post that could use clarification
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...art=1&vc=1
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With AVs and players being immune to Tanker taunt Auras and their Inhererent does that mean that those powers are only meant to be usable on pets, minions, LTs, and Bosses?
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I'm unsure if Elite Bosses are affected by Taunt auras and Punchvoke.
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Does that mean that it is meant that a Tanker has to take taunt because his Inherent and aggro aura are not allowed to be used on Players and AVs? If so Tankers are getting the shaft all round by being the only AT with an inherent not allowed to work any time it is applicable.

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(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)

 

Posted

Shortly before Issue 7 I noticed I couldnt keep an AV on me without taunting him. Despite constant attacks and mud pots with 2 taunt SOs.

Same deal with Brutes. Even though they supposedly have a single target punchvoke, my EM brute constantly loses agro to corruptors against hero fights.

 

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Waaaiiittt a sec. Do you mean the event where the Devs put on the tights as the signature heroes and invaded the Rogue Isles? They complained that they weren't able to attack the other players as they saw fit because of the taunt effects they had on them?

So, unless I'm missing the meaning here, an essentially PvP event has influenced a PvE game change? (In a way that I'm sure most of us would at least raise an eyebrow over....)

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Yep, that's the event I'm talking about. I can understand them changing it so that GMs are unaffected by inherent taunt, since there are potentially dozens of different targets applying the effect. However, it doesn't make sense for AVs that appear on mission maps, since there are normally only one or two players with an inherent taunt effect on any given team.

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The rules they instituted as a result of that PvP event shoulda stayed PvP imo.

Ugh. The only sense I can make out of this is that they wanted to make the AV encounters more chaotic no matter WHAT team makeup one has. 1 power can still negate that chaos, but only 1. Otherwise the somewhat nebulous aggro rules apply.

Edit: Whining and self-loathing deleted. Ya know....cuz sensibilities may be offended.......

 

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3 days ago I stood in the middle of 4-6 members of the freedom phalanx on the last mission of the RSF, holding aggro with footstomp alone. When someone would sleet them, they would all run away, I'd go after the main target, hit them, and all the others would generally come back after me when they turned around, with the occasional encouragement of using mu lightning on a hero that deceided a corruptor looked like a better target (given that they are +4 Hero's and the AV/Hero targetting change, mu lightning should not distract them without taunt, right?).

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This one I can explain: Brutes have taunt in their attacks. They don't have gauntlet.

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I am under the impression that inheirent taunt of any sort is ignored by AV's/Hero's/GM's/Hamidon. It should not matter if its actually "gauntlet", 'auravoke' or just punchvoke that a brute has. If brute punchvoke works where tank punchvoke doesnt, then something is horribly broken. I do not think this is the case, however.

 

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I vote we rename the Tanker AT "Regen"

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Nah...my vote is for "Reneged"

Life - a sexually transmitted terminal condition.

 

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Seriously, the more I read on what the Devs are doing to the AT, the more I truly believe they have no idea what the AT is supposed to be doing.

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This has been said about every hero AT. Scrappers just have it said about them by others, usually.

 

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Seriously, the more I read on what the Devs are doing to the AT, the more I truly believe they have no idea what the AT is supposed to be doing.

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This has been said about every hero AT. Scrappers just have it said about them by others, usually.

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Really? Scrappers seem to be one of the easiest to determine their role. They go nuts and kill stuff. They can also take a few hits along the way.

Tankers, in the Devs eyes, are supposed to take the damage from the enemies, unless there's too many enemies, or the enemy is really large and could one-shot a squishy (if you could one-shot anymore), or if the enemy deals damage you're weak to (per Statesman's example, which I don't succumb to).

I've played just about every AT to about level 20 (not that that's a definitive mark) and lowbie tankers are the only ones that seem to baffle me as to what it is they should be doing in a group. Now even high-level tankers without the ability to hold AV aggro without taunt makes me wonder what their role is.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

Posted

NM, Iakona's right.

Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

 

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Yep, that's the event I'm talking about. I can understand them changing it so that GMs are unaffected by inherent taunt, since there are potentially dozens of different targets applying the effect. However, it doesn't make sense for AVs that appear on mission maps, since there are normally only one or two players with an inherent taunt effect on any given team.

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Why bother changing it for giant monsters? They already bypass aggro control by having multiple huge AoEs. Heck, I don't recall ever seeing a single-target attack from a giant monster.

Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

 

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True but then I remember that Tanker attacks had a bug that wasn't letting them hit moving targets for 3-6 months so there is a bit of a vibe that Tanker concerns are on a "When hell freezes over" schedule that makes some of us cranky.

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Let's be accurate here:

Issue 3 introduced a bug that prevented tanker attacks from hitting moving targets. I first experienced this while messing around with my 8th level Inv/SS tanker on the test server, posted about it, got told I was imagining things, and posted a demo showing what was happening. At first I thought the streakbreaker was failing, but the lack of a "miss" message showed it was something else. I submitted the demo to Vyvyanne, and she confirmed that this was a bug...and as far as I know, it was fixed some time between issue 3 and issue 4.

It was reintroduced later, and explained as a bug that prevented AoEs from hitting moving targets. Since all tanker attacks are AoEs (even with zero radius) because of gauntlet, all tanker attacks were affected.

So, like many other issues - it came back as a legacy bug and stuck around much longer the second time.

I sent this PM to Castle and Positron but I'm not holding my breath on a reply since it involves the Tanker AT.

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A post that could use clarification
.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...art=1&vc=1
.
With AVs and players being immune to Tanker taunt Auras and their Inhererent does that mean that those powers are only meant to be usable on pets, minions, LTs, and Bosses?
.
I'm unsure if Elite Bosses are affected by Taunt auras and Punchvoke.
.
Does that mean that it is meant that a Tanker has to take taunt because his Inherent and aggro aura are not allowed to be used on Players and AVs? If so Tankers are getting the shaft all round by being the only AT with an inherent not allowed to work any time it is applicable.

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Here's hoping.

Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

 

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Why bother changing it for giant monsters? They already bypass aggro control by having multiple huge AoEs. Heck, I don't recall ever seeing a single-target attack from a giant monster.

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Um, Lusca has a pretty mean ST attack with the tentacles. And I think that the Chronos Titan has one or two ST attacks. Still, most GMs use AoEs or PBAoEs as you stated.

Have Fun!

 

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This has been said about every hero AT. Scrappers just have it said about them by others, usually.

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Really? Scrappers seem to be one of the easiest to determine their role. They go nuts and kill stuff. They can also take a few hits along the way.

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There was a time in the game's history where scrappers didn't really do anything well enough to merit a team slot over other ATs. This was after the purple patch and before issue 1. Criticals and the addition of levels 40-50 helped.

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Tankers, in the Devs eyes, are supposed to take the damage from the enemies, unless there's too many enemies, or the enemy is really large and could one-shot a squishy (if you could one-shot anymore), or if the enemy deals damage you're weak to (per Statesman's example, which I don't succumb to).

I've played just about every AT to about level 20 (not that that's a definitive mark) and lowbie tankers are the only ones that seem to baffle me as to what it is they should be doing in a group. Now even high-level tankers without the ability to hold AV aggro without taunt makes me wonder what their role is.

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A tanker's role is to serve as a focus for buffs and heals while smacking his fist into his palm.

Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

 

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Why bother changing it for giant monsters? They already bypass aggro control by having multiple huge AoEs. Heck, I don't recall ever seeing a single-target attack from a giant monster.

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Um, Lusca has a pretty mean ST attack with the tentacles. And I think that the Chronos Titan has one or two ST attacks. Still, most GMs use AoEs or PBAoEs as you stated.

Have Fun!

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How much damage do those attacks do?

Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

 

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Brute attacks are subject to the same restrictions as Tanker attacks. They make a check to see if the target is an AV/GM/Hami/Mito/player, and if it isn't, the inherent Taunt effect is applied. If the target is one of those, the Taunt effect is not even applied to the target; t's not a matter of resistance or protection.

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This isn't correct. My brutes can hold aggro of 8 +4 AVs 100% of the time, using their aura and nothing else.

My tanker couldn't hold aggro of one +2 AV more than 3/4 of the time, using aura and every attack power I had.

This is my experience since 3 months ago. I always thought tankers were bugged. If they're WAI and brutes are bugged, well... I'm glad my brute is SHOE'd out.

 

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Question: Does your inherent work on AV's?

Answers:
Blaster: Yep. When I hit the red.


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LOL if a Blaster is in the red against an AV, death is only a fraction of a second away. He might get one shot off.

As to the issue at hand... I would never consider not taking taunt on a team orriented tank. I'm there to keep the mobs off the team the best I can, and I'll take any help I can to do that. Besides an aura doesn't do squat when a teammate aggro's a mob out of its range. As much as I'd love to leave them to their fate, it'd be too easy for them to run back to the team pulling aggro I may not have 100% of. Most AV's have been too easy in the past. If the AV's attention is on the tank 100% of the time what risk do any of the other members take? None except if the tank drops. As a blaster if the tank has 100% aggro I'm pretty much free to do whatever I want. Heck I've rested in the middle of large scale battles. This was pre tank nerfs and ED since I hit 50 before then and haven't participated in large missions since.

This is my opinion its not meant to "slap" any of you in the face for not taking taunt. Or to argue you should take taunt. Its your toon build it how you like, if you can hold the aggro well enough as is (sans AV's now of course) then great. I personally will not risk the team simply for one power.

I should edit in I didn't read the entire post. I read most of the first two pages until it became redundant. So if bugs relating to taunt itself are there as well I missed them.

Edit again...a doom post on the blasters side promted the above stuff. I didn't find anything really noting that now that I've read all 10 bloody pages now

 

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This has been said about every hero AT. Scrappers just have it said about them by others, usually.

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Really? Scrappers seem to be one of the easiest to determine their role. They go nuts and kill stuff. They can also take a few hits along the way.

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There was a time in the game's history where scrappers didn't really do anything well enough to merit a team slot over other ATs. This was after the purple patch and before issue 1. Criticals and the addition of levels 40-50 helped.

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Tankers, in the Devs eyes, are supposed to take the damage from the enemies, unless there's too many enemies, or the enemy is really large and could one-shot a squishy (if you could one-shot anymore), or if the enemy deals damage you're weak to (per Statesman's example, which I don't succumb to).

I've played just about every AT to about level 20 (not that that's a definitive mark) and lowbie tankers are the only ones that seem to baffle me as to what it is they should be doing in a group. Now even high-level tankers without the ability to hold AV aggro without taunt makes me wonder what their role is.

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A tanker's role is to serve as a focus for buffs and heals while smacking his fist into his palm.

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Don't forget those herding Inv scrappers of times past Kali .

 

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This has been said about every hero AT. Scrappers just have it said about them by others, usually.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Scrappers seem to be one of the easiest to determine their role. They go nuts and kill stuff. They can also take a few hits along the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a time in the game's history where scrappers didn't really do anything well enough to merit a team slot over other ATs. This was after the purple patch and before issue 1. Criticals and the addition of levels 40-50 helped.

[ QUOTE ]
Tankers, in the Devs eyes, are supposed to take the damage from the enemies, unless there's too many enemies, or the enemy is really large and could one-shot a squishy (if you could one-shot anymore), or if the enemy deals damage you're weak to (per Statesman's example, which I don't succumb to).

I've played just about every AT to about level 20 (not that that's a definitive mark) and lowbie tankers are the only ones that seem to baffle me as to what it is they should be doing in a group. Now even high-level tankers without the ability to hold AV aggro without taunt makes me wonder what their role is.

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A tanker's role is to serve as a focus for buffs and heals while smacking his fist into his palm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget those herding Inv scrappers of times past Kali .

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That was a most explicitly different time - mostly post-issue 2, which is when blasters and tankers were baying for scrapper blood.

Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

 

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This has been said about every hero AT. Scrappers just have it said about them by others, usually.

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Really? Scrappers seem to be one of the easiest to determine their role. They go nuts and kill stuff. They can also take a few hits along

 

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Cicle, could you repeat what you're trying to post?

I imagine it's about the difference between when scrappers didn't do anything well on a team and when they were overpowered and everyone wanted to nerf them, but without seeing your actual post, I can't have a decent conversation with you.

Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

 

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Cicle, could you repeat what you're trying to post?

I imagine it's about the difference between when scrappers didn't do anything well on a team and when they were overpowered and everyone wanted to nerf them, but without seeing your actual post, I can't have a decent conversation with you.

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Yeah I have no idea how that happened.

I just said blasters still are

In regards to scrapper blood.

 

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Ugh. The only sense I can make out of this is that they wanted to make the AV encounters more chaotic no matter WHAT team makeup one has. 1 power can still negate that chaos, but only 1. Otherwise the somewhat nebulous aggro rules apply.

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Okay, while this "Stealth Nerf" is a decidedly underhanded move on the part of the Devs (or even worse, another Bug), I think everyone needs to stop and take a breath.

To say that requiring one particular Power to take down a GM/AV is somehow unfair or borked fails to look at the bigger picture.

Can you take down a GM/AV without some form of -Regen?

No (some would argue that it is possible to accomplish this, but I don't consider a 30-60 minute whittle-fest an acceptable way to do it).

And can you Tank (as in acquiring and holding aggro) a GM/AV without the Taunt power from any Tanker secondary?

No (at least according to recent personal experience & current Forum reports).

Are either of these situations fair & balanced?

I would say no to both.

Are either Game-Breaking?

I would say no to both.

All we can gather from the current state of GM/AV encounters is that the Devs want them to be only achievable (or at least resonably achievable) with what they consider a 'Balanced' team (one with at least one -Regen Defender or Controller & at least one Tanker with Taunt to keep everyone else from getting pulped).

Although I must admit that I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate here....all my Tankers have taken Taunt as early as possible, and use it regularly, and therefore are unaffected by this "change."

 

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Can you take down a GM/AV without some form of -Regen?

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My SG takes down AVs without -regen all the time. In the demos I posted, nobody has -regen, and we don't even have full teams, just 5-6 people.

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Yeah, I don't know what people think you need -regen for. My sonic defender has been on plenty of AV killing teams without that ability. His ability to debuff resistance serves quite adequately.

The thing is about this screw up is that is basically says one power is completely mandatory for a tanker to be even vaguely useful against AVs. Of course you could instead just stack defender/controllers and skip the tanker altogether. You'd also do the job much more quickly.

Too many alts to list.