Gauntlet and Taunt Auras don't work on AVs anymore
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2006-10-15 21:38 in Tankers
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I think the Gauntlet change came in sometime after the CoV end-of-Beta event, as I remember the devs talking about how all the taunt effects basically shut down the AV/GM ability to attack.
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Waaaiiittt a sec. Do you mean the event where the Devs put on the tights as the signature heroes and invaded the Rogue Isles? They complained that they weren't able to attack the other players as they saw fit because of the taunt effects they had on them?
So, unless I'm missing the meaning here, an essentially PvP event has influenced a PvE game change? (In a way that I'm sure most of us would at least raise an eyebrow over....)
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Gauntlet power effects (including taunt auras) have no effect on ArchVillains, Giant Monsters, Mitos, and Hamidon. This is by design.
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I think there is more at work than it just not working. Either the base taunt duration is what does not work, or AT modifiers are coming into play.
I have successfully held AV aggro with just punch and auravoke.
I have not been able to pull a giant monster off of a tank with 3 taunt duration enhancers in their invincibility with my hastened taunt(two taunt).
I have pulled aggro of GM's off with taunt(two taunt)+epic ranged attack, and I have pulled aggro off a heavily +recharge buffed tank who was taunting hamidon using: my invincibility (one taunt), taunt (two taunt) and attacks (no taunt).
Ive stood on a rock and held full aggro on 3 giant monsters 2 days ago, one with taunt, under full attack by what would be come the hami-raid umbrella, a second with intermitant ice blast, with one or two stragglers attacking him, and the third with block of ice, with one or two stragglers on him.
3 days ago I stood in the middle of 4-6 members of the freedom phalanx on the last mission of the RSF, holding aggro with footstomp alone. When someone would sleet them, they would all run away, I'd go after the main target, hit them, and all the others would generally come back after me when they turned around, with the occasional encouragement of using mu lightning on a hero that deceided a corruptor looked like a better target (given that they are +4 Hero's and the AV/Hero targetting change, mu lightning should not distract them without taunt, right?).
Either the resistance things like AVs/GMs/Hami have to taunt isnt 100% working, (see split second immobilizes when a death mage hits you with tentacles, even though you have a far greater immob resist than the power they just used on you), they still hate tanks by AT modifier (which we were told was eliminated for most of the foes mentioned), they only resist "base" duration slotting or you just get "lucky" and keep the attention of the AV because you are attacking fast enough (I doubt it).
Regardless, either the full story isnt out, or something is bugged. If gauntlet is not supposed to work on foes like hamidon/mitos/av's/giant monsters, finding out now is kind of a nice surprise when three weeks ago we were told about gauntlet:
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It's the minimum necessary. Taking Taunt adds flexibility.
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I've had similiar (or identical) experiences to Q. I also experienced what appears to be the opposite problem during the short-lived CoP trial when I stepped up to tank the AV, tossed 3 taunts on him, and watched him completely ignore me and continue pounding on everyone else. I had to run up to him, get him in my aura, and start attacking him to get aggro.
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
I figured we should get some straight answers on this, as it's quite a development if accurate, so I pm'd posi and castle..
Should hear something from them I'd think.
here's what I asked.
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Could you take a look at this thread and see if you're seeing similar issues on the internal testing system?
Gauntlet/Aggro not working on AVs and GMs
If this is the way things are supposed to work, what exactly are we supposed be doing versus AVs/GM on a tank character?
thanks
Blagg
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Seriously, this is borked. Most of my tanks are tauntless, many because of RP reasons.
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I dropped taunt on my ice/stone because the animation was too long for the result, and I could gather and hold aggro fine with everything else.
Of course, I did this long ago, probably before the change was introduced.
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3 days ago I stood in the middle of 4-6 members of the freedom phalanx on the last mission of the RSF, holding aggro with footstomp alone. When someone would sleet them, they would all run away, I'd go after the main target, hit them, and all the others would generally come back after me when they turned around, with the occasional encouragement of using mu lightning on a hero that deceided a corruptor looked like a better target (given that they are +4 Hero's and the AV/Hero targetting change, mu lightning should not distract them without taunt, right?).
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This one I can explain: Brutes have taunt in their attacks. They don't have gauntlet.
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While the animation for taunt isn't 'short' by any means, it does NOT make you a pure taunt bot. sure it will suck to some tanks to 'have to get taunt' now to actually tank AVs, but live with it.
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Why should we "live with it"? Gauntlet is our inherent. Crits, containment, vigilance and defiance all work in regards to AV and GM encounters (as far as I know anyway).
To take the utility away from both our inherent and taunt auras in regards to AV/GM battles may not break the AT, but it certainly makes Tankers less appealing. Who'd want a tauntless tank in a GM/AV encounter now?
I guess this is the Dev's way of ending the great Taunt debate on the tanker boards.
We shouldn't have to live with it. Tankers have gauntlet and taunt auras so that they won't have to take taunt or provoke in order to hold aggro. Gauntlet was added in issue 3 for precisely this reason, and this change completely negates that change...and it's a stealth nerf.
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We're backing to fighting AVs circa-I2, except we've got hatcheted defenses, and the AVs have boosted HP.
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Don't forget, we had single target taunts in our attacks too, back then. You could tank an AV without the Taunt power at release. Gauntlet was added for dealing with groups.
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True, we could keep anyone's attention by just hitting them, but their friends would wipe our teams, so presto chango.. punchvoke (later dubbed gauntlet as more politically correct terminology).
The only reason I even get my main tank out now is for AV missions, and if this is a deliberate change, then I can park him permanently..
you know.. wow is looking better and better..
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We're backing to fighting AVs circa-I2, except we've got hatcheted defenses, and the AVs have boosted HP.
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Don't forget, we had single target taunts in our attacks too, back then. You could tank an AV without the Taunt power at release. Gauntlet was added for dealing with groups.
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O YA. We're WORSE off! 
I'm sorry. I don't run a Tanker as a primary - I only have one out of about 13 active characters.
But this sucks.
The devs need their design of AVs reworked from the ground up. Resistant to damn near every debuff except a few blessed powers magically flagged unresistable, virtually immune to holds 2/3 of the time and now known to be flat out immune to the Tanker inherent.
As others have said, Gauntlet was given to Tankers so they didn't have to take Taunt to do their job. And now we learn that in the situation where you really, truly and honestly want a meatshield that inherent power is fully worthless and you absolutely must have Taunt to do that job at all.
Learning things like this about this game's design makes me really wish I was stupidly rich for no other reason that I could try to buy Cryptic and call people into my office to ask them what the living hell they were thinking.
Stop trying so desperately to make these big, boring bags of HPs hard to kill and manage. That does not make them more "challenging". I makes them more frustrating because they are beyond our ability to control with any semblance to the rest of the game.
(I'd do other more relevant things if I was stupidly rich. This one would just feel good 
).
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(I'd do other more relevant things if I was stupidly rich. This one would just feel good ).
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Thanks for the reminder. I'm going to go buy a lotto ticket. 
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
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We should all ask about this.
If our Inherent/Taunt Aura is not sudposed to work in PvP. If our Inherent/Taunt Aura is not sudposed to work on AVs. Then is our Inherent/Taunt Aura only sudposed to work on minions, Lts, Bosses and mabye Elite Bosses.
Truthfully I wouldn't bet on it working on Elite Bosses. Tankers are REALLY getting the shaft all round.
I vote we rename the Tanker AT "Regen" 
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I vote we rename the Tanker AT "Regen"
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No, no, you can't do that. Regen is still actually useful.
Renamed to Regen would make things simpler for the dev's. They wouldn't have to look for who to nerf. 
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
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That would be retarded. Taunt is already a hammy way of getting Tanks to take more aggro than they're "worth". A scaling version would just be ridiculous.
Why would they get more aggro? Are they more angry and using worse insults? Are they putting their brain to the test and discovering psychic abilities heretofore unknown?
Dynamite. The solution is dynamite.
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Every single attack that Tanks do, should cause multiple effects. Many effects. Like, more than a few. Lots, even.
It's always appeared to me that multiple effects, debuffs, etc, draw more aggro than pure damage.
Have all Tank attacks debuff AND control the target. Even if it's only a 1 second -Recharge due to being off balance. Give Tanks more PBAoE attacks, each of which with a 1-second attached debuff plus their normal effects like DoT, chance to knockdown, etc. Maybe have a AoE Fear Aura when you see the Tank smash your boss. Have the Fear aura be dependent on the target hit... you're more afraid when he hits your boss than when he hits a mere minion.
All of these multiple effects will build aggro upon Tanks, using an APPROPRIATE mechanism: I hamper your efforts to fight, therefore you wish to defeat me first. Not the kludge that Taunt effects are.
Using these mechanisms, Tanks will have the ability to maintain aggro relatively well, without overpowering them by giving them high damage for aggro management, or constant controls for the same reason. Turn Tanks into a PBAoE combat machine that throws out everything but not to overpowering levels in anything, and they'll be useful exactly for holding aggro without being High Damage.
Consider, for example, a combination of Mud Pots, Chilling Embrace, a PBAoE Roar that acts like Invoke Panic (for three seconds... so it's more of a aggro-management power), etc... and the Tank can hold aggro in melee range. Without having overpowered damage or control.
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3 days ago I stood in the middle of 4-6 members of the freedom phalanx on the last mission of the RSF, holding aggro with footstomp alone. When someone would sleet them, they would all run away, I'd go after the main target, hit them, and all the others would generally come back after me when they turned around, with the occasional encouragement of using mu lightning on a hero that deceided a corruptor looked like a better target (given that they are +4 Hero's and the AV/Hero targetting change, mu lightning should not distract them without taunt, right?).
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This one I can explain: Brutes have taunt in their attacks. They don't have gauntlet.
[/ QUOTE ]Brute attacks are subject to the same restrictions as Tanker attacks. They make a check to see if the target is an AV/GM/Hami/Mito/player, and if it isn't, the inherent Taunt effect is applied. If the target is one of those, the Taunt effect is not even applied to the target; t's not a matter of resistance or protection.
If that is true, then the Brute was probably holding aggro through sheer damage output, which wouldn't be too hard for a Brute.
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I think the Gauntlet change came in sometime after the CoV end-of-Beta event, as I remember the devs talking about how all the taunt effects basically shut down the AV/GM ability to attack.
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Waaaiiittt a sec. Do you mean the event where the Devs put on the tights as the signature heroes and invaded the Rogue Isles? They complained that they weren't able to attack the other players as they saw fit because of the taunt effects they had on them?
So, unless I'm missing the meaning here, an essentially PvP event has influenced a PvE game change? (In a way that I'm sure most of us would at least raise an eyebrow over....)
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Yep, that's the event I'm talking about. I can understand them changing it so that GMs are unaffected by inherent taunt, since there are potentially dozens of different targets applying the effect. However, it doesn't make sense for AVs that appear on mission maps, since there are normally only one or two players with an inherent taunt effect on any given team.
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We should all ask about this.
If our Inherent/Taunt Aura is not sudposed to work in PvP. If our Inherent/Taunt Aura is not sudposed to work on AVs. Then is our Inherent/Taunt Aura only sudposed to work on minions, Lts, Bosses and mabye Elite Bosses.
Truthfully I wouldn't bet on it working on Elite Bosses. Tankers are REALLY getting the shaft all round.
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This is a point I was trying to drive hom in my "End of the Taunt Debate: Tanker Improvements" thread. Our inherent ability is turned off in PvP, specifically to neuter our ability to force an opponent to face us. Now it comes out that it's neutered similarly in the case of AV's/GM's.
At some point you have to say "I'm programming too many work-arounds for this kludgy piece of code I added.", and you need to sit down and start from scratch with something better.
This really was the straw for me. I've been playin WoW for a couple weeks to see if I like it. CoH was always HANDS DOWN my favorite game. Not any longer.
I started playing this game back in teh summer of 04. I created my first tank in sept. 04 after trying blaster, then scrappers. I fell in love with my tank.
I've watched nerf after nerf after nerf. To the point where I can't find a tank fun anymore. I keep telling myself, adjust etc. But when you look at what you were to what you are...it gets frustrating.
I'm playing a WoW warrior now. He's not as strong at taking damage as a tank, but he is what he is. And I can learn and accept it. If WoW suddenly goes and changes him on me, I'll probably quit WoW. I've become complete disenchanted with CoX. I feel like a game I loved was taken from me FOR NO REASON!!!
So for all of you who knew me on Liberty as Harley Rider, Harley Ryder, Uber Nova, Buck N. Bronco, Daemon Strife or War Train. It was good playing with you. The community is what it's all about. I'm just tired of having my characters stripped of their powers and not play like they did for HUNDREDS of hours.
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Except AVs ignore threat rating as of I7, do they not?
[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, forgot about that. Post re-edited now.
I think the Gauntlet change came in sometime after the CoV end-of-Beta event, as I remember the devs talking about how all the taunt effects basically shut down the AV/GM ability to attack.
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Ok I've said some negative things about Tanker being broken was back in issue 5. But I begrudging accepted it as the new status quo. The aggro cap did limited how much one Tanker had t deal with in terms of damage. I still like play the role of a tank if I can even if I'm not playing a Tanker. With that said...
Quit with the half-[censored] attempts to fix things. All you are doing is really screwing with the causual players. The casual players go by why they readll in the game manual (if they read it) and by the ingame power descriptions. They don't come to the boards. 1/2 probablu don't even know the boards exist.
Forget Gauntlet as an Inherent power which it ain't. It's just another secodary effect added to certain powers like Knockback. Just make the Taunt power the Inherent ability. Add Taunt as in inherent power from level 1 or 6 or whatever. That will make it clear in no uncertain terms. Taunt is needed and you should be using it all of the time.
Edit: And this is the 3 rewrite of this post. The first two would have gotten be banned for life.
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At some point you have to say "I'm programming too many work-arounds for this kludgy piece of code I added.", and you need to sit down and start from scratch with something better.
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Hence MUO
I haven't noticed this problem because I always use Taunt on AVs, but I hope a Dev comments on it. Hopefully, if Gauntlet doesn't work on AVs at all it's just a bug that will be fixed. If AVs just resist Gauntlet when their "triangles" are up, well, that would still anger a lot of people but at least it would make a little sense, since Controllers face the same problem (and at least we still have Taunt.)
It would be nice if this discussion could be done with less whining and self-loathing, though.
That would be retarded. Taunt is already a hammy way of getting Tanks to take more aggro than they're "worth". A scaling version would just be ridiculous.
Why would they get more aggro? Are they more angry and using worse insults? Are they putting their brain to the test and discovering psychic abilities heretofore unknown?
Dynamite. The solution is dynamite.