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You know that whatever you say I can give you a way to do it better.
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Mostly, by claiming regen scrappers can always keep enough lucks around to substitute for MoG. But the level of lucks required to do that, if SR scrappers and Invuln scrappers kept them also, would largely eliminate the usefulness of Elude and Unstoppable as well.
[/ QUOTE ]well regen scrappers at least do not realy need greens or blues,and no scraper realy has much use for mez protection,,+acc or +damage.+res is nicer then it used to be,but it is still pretty much blown away by lucks.
my sr scrapper in contrast can still get much use out of greens,blues and +res.,though to some exstent i am inclined to agree about not needing elude since one luck can pretty much cap me when i run my sloted combat jump.
Actually I think the point is no has RESISTANCE to Hami damage. But there is DEFENSE against it. There is a big difference in those two statements in the City of * world.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
It's irrelevant that MoG doesn't provide protection against Psi or Hamidon. Regen is the only set that universally has resistance against all damage types, no other set even comes close.
MoG, one power of Regen, does not. It is best used for other things. Of course, it is best used not at all right now, since it lasts too long.
there is niether,the only protection is healing.
healing is a form of protection that deals with damage retroactivly and thus is the only one that ever had any usfullness against hammy.
That wasn't my point. I was just responding to the comment about Regen having resistance versus Hami, though now that I re-read it that is not what he meant.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Right, I understand that is your point now.
At first I thought you were trying to say that Hamidon damage was Resistable by Regens.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Actually I think the point is no has RESISTANCE to Hami damage. But there is DEFENSE against it. There is a big difference in those two statements in the City of * world.
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The term used was Protection. Any set with healing has protection from hami. Any power with base defense (the old MoG might have been the only power with it) protects against Hami.
Using MoG puts you at a worse position against Hami than you were before using MoG. That was all I was saying and it's really not subject to dispute.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I know that you aren't really meaning it to come across this way, but taking the opportunity--if your persecuters are not members of the establishment, then your rights are not being violated per se. No one has the right to express themselves in a public forum and not have the forum experience the reactions, good or bad, of others with access to that forum.
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Wokka personalizes it to me. Disagree all you want. Arcana does. I love the argument.
But I've had Wokka call me out in post I wasn't even looking at. Others have had to tell me about them. I'm not the only one who doesn't like MoG. Now I'll admit my responses to him have not been the kindest either, but I've never initiated a personal battle.
When someone asks about MoG I just tell them what I think and say try before you buy and then either Wokka or Alisson come in to tell me I don't know how to play. That's what I object to.
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Then the solution is simple: Track them down and KILL THEM BOTH! Don't look at Personal Attacks as anything more than an opportunity to classify someone in the dichotomy between people with whom you can carry on a discussion and people you can't. That's what I do. In fact, if I can just personally attack a few more people this week...oh, wait...
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They keep running yo!
But seriously, you're right. Alisson can be reasonable, but I'm done talking to Wokka.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The best part of MoG is the chance to shout "Moment of GLOOOOOOOOOOORY" when you use it. It's fun. All other arguements are pointless.
I use MoG in EB and AV fights when Fast Healing wears off. Granted, some psychic bosses will smite you, but it's fun to go toe to toe with Marauder and out last his uber defense power.
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This is true. Its a showoff power. And while I can't give numbers that prove its uberness, I doubt anyone can. It's not a number game, it's a psychological game you play when you click MoG. It's not the simple game mechanics of win vs lose or defense/resistance numbers. It's an ingenious addition to the game which provides what all heroes should aspire for. To sacrifice yourself in a glorious way. It's SUPPOSED to be a losing battle when you use it. The more you put on the line the more glory you recieve when it's over and you survive.
If you pick your moment correctly you're gonna hear the familiar chants from your teammates. "Woowoo!! GO GO GO!!" and when its over you get the rush of hearing "man you're awesome" and "you're the best scrapper I've ever seen". It's not your normal tier 9 that you can use when things fail or go bad, or to start a big fight, because clicking MoG can fail you too, and if you picked a bad time, it will be utter idiotic suicide.
Mog has let me complete a room while the team is faceplanted, cheering. It has allowed me to tank Seige while the real tank disconnected, logged back in, got tp'd to the top and took taunt again. Many times, MoG took my life to save my friends, and it suited its purpose there too. MoG isn't about YOU, its about your team. My motto in-game has always been "my life for you" and MoG really makes this possible. Many times it will result in my death, but a few of those will really be great moments of glory.
just to pitch in...
Regen's Revive power...why do we get the crappy animation of slowly getting up, but NPC's like....Valkyrie and Spine Wardens (post 40 game) get the one like someone used there Rez power (not Resusitate)
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A legitimate argument that MoG is flawed is comparing its overall performance during its situationally useful windows. There, we're talking about its defensive strength, and its lack of regeneration, as part of its *overall* total strength, not a "strength vs weakness" issue. Its one of the reasons I originally calculated, then claimed, that MoG lasts too long (and suggested a proper running time for it: about 120 seconds, depending on certain factors). I also agree (and was saying long ago) that another inherent design error (in my opinion) with MoG is that it locks out *all* external buffing, not just regeneration (which its designed to do). MoG scrappers cannot be effectively defense or resistance buffed, on top of being unable to be regeneratively buffed or healed, which does not appear to be explicitly intentional, but a nasty side effect of the power's mechanics.
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"strength vs weakness or overall strength" we'll have to agree and disagree. I think when, where, how often, and what circumstances is just as important as how well it performs when it's performing. When I'm choosing what power to choose next, all those things are important.
MoG fills the "other shoe" is a good point.
As to duration, I have agree, it lasts too long. However I feel, subjectively, it should be 60 seconds max. For me 2 minutes (or even 1 minute) of hand sitting doesn't balance out the 1 minute of performance. But for others it may, just make sure they understand the downside.
The specific instance of non-psy AV's is a good point. If one were specifically building as an AV killer MoG might be a good choice. I'm not building an AV killer, however.
As to external buffs, if that were changed that could certainly be an advantage. Depending on what external effects were allowed you could potentially make MoG a near god-mode. So while a good place to look for changes, that really doesn't help in picking the power now.
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and if you picked a bad time, it will be utter idiotic suicide.
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That's sorta one of the arguments against MoG. It not only "fails" to work in some situations, it fails so specatularly that it's "utter idiotic suicide". In some of those situations it actually substantially helps the enemy rather than simply having "no effect".
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. Many times, MoG took my life to save my friends, and it suited its purpose there too. MoG isn't about YOU, its about your team. My motto in-game has always been "my life for you" and MoG really makes this possible. Many times it will result in my death, but a few of those will really be great moments of glory.
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That would make a good, and fairly informative power description. If people chose the power with THAT in mind, I'd hardly have an objection. Of course that statement isn't exactly a resounding endorsement of the power.
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The best part of MoG is the chance to shout "Moment of GLOOOOOOOOOOORY" when you use it. It's fun. All other arguements are pointless.
I use MoG in EB and AV fights when Fast Healing wears off. Granted, some psychic bosses will smite you, but it's fun to go toe to toe with Marauder and out last his uber defense power.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is true. Its a showoff power. And while I can't give numbers that prove its uberness, I doubt anyone can. It's not a number game, it's a psychological game you play when you click MoG. It's not the simple game mechanics of win vs lose or defense/resistance numbers. It's an ingenious addition to the game which provides what all heroes should aspire for. To sacrifice yourself in a glorious way. It's SUPPOSED to be a losing battle when you use it. The more you put on the line the more glory you recieve when it's over and you survive.
If you pick your moment correctly you're gonna hear the familiar chants from your teammates. "Woowoo!! GO GO GO!!" and when its over you get the rush of hearing "man you're awesome" and "you're the best scrapper I've ever seen". It's not your normal tier 9 that you can use when things fail or go bad, or to start a big fight, because clicking MoG can fail you too, and if you picked a bad time, it will be utter idiotic suicide.
Mog has let me complete a room while the team is faceplanted, cheering. It has allowed me to tank Seige while the real tank disconnected, logged back in, got tp'd to the top and took taunt again. Many times, MoG took my life to save my friends, and it suited its purpose there too. MoG isn't about YOU, its about your team. My motto in-game has always been "my life for you" and MoG really makes this possible. Many times it will result in my death, but a few of those will really be great moments of glory.
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I have to agree with this, as one who has been in those positions many a times. however, the "my life for you" philosophy does not, in any way discount the thoughts originally posted in this thread. MoG is an incredibly fun power, I doubt I will ever respec out of it, and I doubt I'll ever stop slotting it. at the same time, however, the only way I'll get rid of revive is if I were to ditch MoG, they practically go hand in hand...
Fact: Moment of Glory is very situational, and in terms of pure and simple survivability, it can often be outshined by inspiration usage.
Educated Opinion: Generally speaking, you're not going to use moment of glory unless you're out of inspirations, as "most" people that take it use it as an "oh crap" power, and in many "oh crap" situations, it will get you killed
Opinion: MoG is useless for the average player. if taken as an oh crap power, it is going to be ineffective. however, it is one of the most fun powers in the game, partially because of the gamble that comes with it. MoG could be easily improved; give it a break-free effect, so you can use it if something overcomes the mez of integration; lower the duration/recharge. again, great fun, but if you're looking for a power that will make your character more min/maxed than basic regen, you're barking up the wrong tree and you should lok elsewhere.
Play one, from level 1 to 50 and then return here and make that suggestion... you won't.
I have a level 50 Regen. I suggest the power, and in fact the entire set, be left as is.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Play one, from level 1 to 50 and then return here and make that suggestion... you won't.
I have a level 50 Regen. I suggest the power, and in fact the entire set, be left as is.
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But then, venture hasn't hardly ever met a nerf he didn't like.
Imagine, if you will, Elude was left as is...except:
1) You had no defense to PSI or Toxic (even with your other toggles/passives)
2) You took 400% damage from Psi
3) You couldn't regen for 3 minutes.
Honestly, the only change I would make to MoG, is leave everything the same except:
Your HP are now at 25% and ALL of your healing is based off of that number (recon, DP, regen rate, inspirations). You're still left vulnerable to Psi, toxic falling damage, but you can't be whittled to death by a patch of caltrops.
Proud member of the Cole-a-lition.
Fighting to make every reality, a better reality.
Okay, so forgive me if someone else has done this, but I think a side by side comparison of Elude and MoG might be useful.
Elude is +45% def to melee, ranged, AoE, + recovery, and a nice run speed and jump buss. Note that since the I7 def changes, elude by itself will florr an enemy's chance to hit unless your defense has been debuffed. Combined with the toggle powers, it will likely floor everything's chance to hit even if you have been debuffed, with the exceptions of rularuu (who I swear have a smoke-grenade-like bug with their ToHit buff) and DE when there's a quartz crystal out.
MoG gives, about a ~70% def buff to all but toxic and psi, and 75% resistance to all but psi (and toxic?), sets your health to 25% of its max, and prevents healing. Also, you get a recovery boost and lots of mez protection.
MoG gets no bonus points over Elude for having status protection; it's no problem to keep PB up and running at all times, and it's almost certainly a power that every SR has already taken long ago. The resistance/HP effects basically cancel, amounting to a -300% debuff to toxic and psi damage. The additional defense over what Elude gets is almost always pointless.
Therefore, my conclusion is that MoG is basically like Elude, except without the run/jump boosts, with huge vulnerablities to toxic and psi damage, and side effects that basically negate the rest of the secondary.
So, while I'll refrain from saying MoG isn't a useful power, it's clearly not in the same league as Elude.
I could probably do a similiar analysis with Unstoppable, but I won't, because I'm feeling lazy.
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Okay, so forgive me if someone else has done this, but I think a side by side comparison of Elude and MoG might be useful.
Elude is +45% def to melee, ranged, AoE, + recovery, and a nice run speed and jump buss. Note that since the I7 def changes, elude by itself will florr an enemy's chance to hit unless your defense has been debuffed. Combined with the toggle powers, it will likely floor everything's chance to hit even if you have been debuffed, with the exceptions of rularuu (who I swear have a smoke-grenade-like bug with their ToHit buff) and DE when there's a quartz crystal out.
MoG gives, about a ~70% def buff to all but toxic and psi, and 75% resistance to all, sets your health to 25% of its max, and prevents healing. Also, you get a recovery boost and lots of mez protection.
MoG gets no bonus points over Elude for having status protection; it's no problem to keep PB up and running at all times, and it's almost certainly a power that every SR has already taken long ago. The resistance/HP effects basically cancel, amounting to a -300% debuff to toxic and psi damage. The additional defense over what Elude gets is almost always pointless.
Therefore, my conclusion is that MoG is basically like Elude, except without the run/jump boosts, with huge vulnerablities to toxic and psi damage, and side effects that basically negate the rest of the secondary.
So, while I'll refrain from saying MoG isn't a useful power, it's clearly not in the same league as Elude.
I could probably do a similiar analysis with Unstoppable, but I won't, because I'm feeling lazy.
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There's also no resist to psi, I believe.
Because my scrapper was one shotted by a Fortunata Mistress in Warburg while testing.
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MoG gives, about a ~70% def buff to all but toxic and psi, and 75% resistance to all, sets your health to 25% of its max, and prevents healing. Also, you get a recovery boost and lots of mez protection.
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Assuming the 75% resist all is indeed factual, here's how the math boils down:
100 HP character takes 100 damage and dies
100 HP character running MoG has 25HP.
25 HP character takes 25 damage of 100 damage (75% resisted) and dies.
Total resistance gained: 0%
I calculate total resistance as to how 25% HP essentially becomes your max HP. In fact, even running with 80% resistance would only merit a 20% base resistance gain:
100 HP character takes 100 damage and dies
100 HP character running MoG has 25HP.
25 HP character takes 20 damage of 100 damage (80% resisted) and lives.
Total Resistance gained: 20%
Do also note that while the 25HP character did survive, he cannot regenerate/heal any of the damage till after MoG is gone. Also note, that by popping a single Sturdy(5% resistance), the non-MoG character has the same HP after the attack as the MoG character has and can regenerate/heal.
Of course...this is all theory.
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There's also no resist to psi, I believe.
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You're right, I forgot to put that in. I think that there's no toxic resist either, but I could be wrong.
Fixed it in my post.
I have one problem, and one problem only with MoG:
THE CROWNING POWER OF THE REGENERATION SET COMPLETELY STOPS REGENERATION!!!
This makes it the dumbest power in the game. I don't care how useful it is, or how cool the animation looks, it's completely moronic. I have no idea how it ever made it into the game with such a ridiculous concept breaking flaw.
This is why it should be changed.
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One more thing about that. I think every power has to stand on its own merits because the way our character advancement system works, it DOES need to stand on its own. There is a player asking whether he or she should get Tough or MoG on the Scrapper forums. Even a lot of MoG defenders say get Tough. A power that's always there for you is a better choice than a power you'll hardly use.
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There is an artificial distinction being made here. You say each power should be judged "alone" but on that basis, tough sucks for scrappers: its numbers are way too low.
Its useful to regen only when stacked on top of the rest of the regeneration set: resistance mitigation amplifies regeneration, and that's what makes it useful (it arguably provides *more* benefit to regen scrappers than even invuln because of that fact).
The artificial distinction being made here is between allowing tough to be judged stacked on top of regeneration, to heighten its net overall benefit, but not judging MoG's strengths and weaknesses relative to the rest of the set. It has strengths the rest of the set lacks: that is what is being counterbalanced against the weaknesses it has (that the rest of the set also lacks).
Saying MoG should be judged alone, without regard for the unique benefits it offers to regeneration (its incremental benefits would be much lower to SR say, that already has defense), but judging tough based on how it stacks with +regen, is an arbitrary decision.
That tough "works all the time" and MoG doesn't is a valid, but subjective reason for choosing one power over the other. The same would be true for unstoppable.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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Play one, from level 1 to 50 and then return here and make that suggestion... you won't.
I have a level 50 Regen. I suggest the power, and in fact the entire set, be left as is.
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But then, venture hasn't hardly ever met a nerf he didn't like.
Imagine, if you will, Elude was left as is...except:
1) You had no defense to PSI or Toxic (even with your other toggles/passives)
2) You took 400% damage from Psi
3) You couldn't regen for 3 minutes.
Honestly, the only change I would make to MoG, is leave everything the same except:
Your HP are now at 25% and ALL of your healing is based off of that number (recon, DP, regen rate, inspirations). You're still left vulnerable to Psi, toxic falling damage, but you can't be whittled to death by a patch of caltrops.
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If it meant the rest of the set would finally be balanced to have the same strength as regen1-8, I would take it right now. I can even tell you what the numbers should be.
Now imagine regen with:
* quick recovery eliminated
* dull pain eliminated
* healing does not work against AoE attacks until level 35
* everything that currently debuffs defense now debuffs regeneration also
Eat *those* adjustments and you too can have Elude.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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Take out the self-damage, change the defense to positional (and of course add psionic resistance), and lower the time; it's more of a slowly activating suicide button then a "moment" of glory right now.
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Okay, so forgive me if someone else has done this, but I think a side by side comparison of Elude and MoG might be useful.
Elude is +45% def to melee, ranged, AoE, + recovery, and a nice run speed and jump buss. Note that since the I7 def changes, elude by itself will florr an enemy's chance to hit unless your defense has been debuffed. Combined with the toggle powers, it will likely floor everything's chance to hit even if you have been debuffed, with the exceptions of rularuu (who I swear have a smoke-grenade-like bug with their ToHit buff) and DE when there's a quartz crystal out.
MoG gives, about a ~70% def buff to all but toxic and psi, and 75% resistance to all but psi (and toxic?), sets your health to 25% of its max, and prevents healing. Also, you get a recovery boost and lots of mez protection.
MoG gets no bonus points over Elude for having status protection; it's no problem to keep PB up and running at all times, and it's almost certainly a power that every SR has already taken long ago. The resistance/HP effects basically cancel, amounting to a -300% debuff to toxic and psi damage. The additional defense over what Elude gets is almost always pointless.
Therefore, my conclusion is that MoG is basically like Elude, except without the run/jump boosts, with huge vulnerablities to toxic and psi damage, and side effects that basically negate the rest of the secondary.
So, while I'll refrain from saying MoG isn't a useful power, it's clearly not in the same league as Elude.
I could probably do a similiar analysis with Unstoppable, but I won't, because I'm feeling lazy.
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Which was my point. Elude, another Tier 9 power, is clearly head and shoulders better than MoG.
Of course, they're both better than Soul Transfer....
Proud member of the Cole-a-lition.
Fighting to make every reality, a better reality.
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Play one, from level 1 to 50 and then return here and make that suggestion... you won't.
I have a level 50 Regen. I suggest the power, and in fact the entire set, be left as is.
[/ QUOTE ]
But then, venture hasn't hardly ever met a nerf he didn't like.
Imagine, if you will, Elude was left as is...except:
1) You had no defense to PSI or Toxic (even with your other toggles/passives)
2) You took 400% damage from Psi
3) You couldn't regen for 3 minutes.
Honestly, the only change I would make to MoG, is leave everything the same except:
Your HP are now at 25% and ALL of your healing is based off of that number (recon, DP, regen rate, inspirations). You're still left vulnerable to Psi, toxic falling damage, but you can't be whittled to death by a patch of caltrops.
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If it meant the rest of the set would finally be balanced to have the same strength as regen1-8, I would take it right now. I can even tell you what the numbers should be.
Now imagine regen with:
* quick recovery eliminated
* dull pain eliminated
* healing does not work against AoE attacks until level 35
* everything that currently debuffs defense now debuffs regeneration also
Eat *those* adjustments and you too can have Elude.
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The performance of an entire set doesn't excuse a stinker of a power like MoG. Please take your regen hating elsewhere.
Proud member of the Cole-a-lition.
Fighting to make every reality, a better reality.
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No one really gets psi protection.
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I guess no one includes: Stone Armor, SR, Dark Armor, Dark Miasma, Empathy, Regen (out of MoG), Force Field
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And lol NO ONE can resist Hami damage so seeing it on your list makes me believe you are really reaching for negative things about MoG.
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Regens can protect against Hami. Not as well as in the old days, but healing is protection. MoG doesn't allow that.
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And all because you haven't learned how to deal with it to your advantage.
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Because there is none. You say I can't find a use for MoG, but you can't either. You know that whatever you say I can give you a way to do it better. Your ego is hurt because in your heart you fear that we are right and you use MoG as a crutch. And a poor one at that.
You keep using your crutch, and I'll keep responding to opinions with facts.
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1 For Psi protection on a stone tank, minerals will be the best suited to take Psi, but still no direct protection is offered by any you mentioned. They just don't have the hole that MoG does.
2 And Regens have no protection from Hami damage. It is a damage type of its own that is not resisted by anything or anyone. And trying to say that healing is hami protection is ludicrous at best.
And you don't have any facts in there anywhere that I can see, unless you count untrue statements. Especially the part where you say "and you can't either" because you don't know how well I use MoG and you're bitter that I've learned how to use it and you poo poo on it every chance you get. I'll still hold that it is a truly heroic power for those experienced enough to use it correctly. You have proven you are not one of those. Let it be, let it go. I'm ok with you not liking it.
[/ QUOTE ]as for 1,what the heck are you talking about?all those sets do have a direct protection psi.either psi alone is covered or they have a blanket protection.you can not say they do not count BECUSE they are there.what sort of dubble think is that?
as for number 2,you can only say regen has no protection to hammy damage if you say that regen has no protection to ANY damage.i still remember tanking hammy with that protection that you say i never had.
so who is making the ludicrous statments again?