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Heh, thanks but that's not a very good answer. I want to know what I should select now, not in some future year in 2008 when they finally look at Mog.
Guess I'll take Phase shift.
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Neither is the best answer.
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Agreed.
If you want to check out MoG, try it on the Test server. Then you wan't have to waste a respec on live servers to drop it (like I did) if you decide you hate it.
If you want Phase Shift, do a patrol in Warburg for the temp power. Wasting 3 powers & an entire pool just so you can have an ability identical to a readily available temp power is just silly.
OP: Great write up EG. Having this to link to will come in handy. 
Oh, and trading MoG for FoN is probably the best idea I've heard all week.
-Dr. Rob
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No one really gets psi protection.
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I guess no one includes: Stone Armor, SR, Dark Armor, Dark Miasma, Empathy, Regen (out of MoG), Force Field
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And lol NO ONE can resist Hami damage so seeing it on your list makes me believe you are really reaching for negative things about MoG.
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Regens can protect against Hami. Not as well as in the old days, but healing is protection. MoG doesn't allow that.
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And all because you haven't learned how to deal with it to your advantage.
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Because there is none. You say I can't find a use for MoG, but you can't either. You know that whatever you say I can give you a way to do it better. Your ego is hurt because in your heart you fear that we are right and you use MoG as a crutch. And a poor one at that.
You keep using your crutch, and I'll keep responding to opinions with facts.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Sweet mother of monkeys i LOVE posts of MoG is garbage look at the numbers/MoG is great you dont know how to use it WARS 
Let me say one thing and make it clear:
I AM NOT SAYING THAT MOG IS NOT "FUN"!
Not at all. Not a bit. Never. MoG can be very fun. So can gambling. But a gamble is a gamble and MoG is much more of a gamble than just relying on your regen powers and perhaps a luck once in awhile.
If you're enjoying MoG, PLEASE CONTINUE. If you're thinking about MoG as a power pick just understand that it's not Elude or Unstoppable. It's MoG. A power that's a big risk to use. If you understand that risk fully, you'll be in better shape to use it to the minimal effect it gives.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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No one really gets psi protection.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess no one includes: Stone Armor, SR, Dark Armor, Dark Miasma, Empathy, Regen (out of MoG), Force Field
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And lol NO ONE can resist Hami damage so seeing it on your list makes me believe you are really reaching for negative things about MoG.
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Regens can protect against Hami. Not as well as in the old days, but healing is protection. MoG doesn't allow that.
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And all because you haven't learned how to deal with it to your advantage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because there is none. You say I can't find a use for MoG, but you can't either. You know that whatever you say I can give you a way to do it better. Your ego is hurt because in your heart you fear that we are right and you use MoG as a crutch. And a poor one at that.
You keep using your crutch, and I'll keep responding to opinions with facts.
[/ QUOTE ]
For Psi protection on a stone tank, minerals will be the best suited to take Psi, but still no direct protection is offered by any you mentioned. They just don't have the hole that MoG does.
And Regens have no protection from Hami damage. It is a damage type of its own that is not resisted by anything or anyone. And trying to say that healing is hami protection is ludicrous at best.
And you don't have any facts in there anywhere that I can see, unless you count untrue statements. Especially the part where you say "and you can't either" because you don't know how well I use MoG and you're bitter that I've learned how to use it and you poo poo on it every chance you get. I'll still hold that it is a truly heroic power for those experienced enough to use it correctly. You have proven you are not one of those. Let it be, let it go. I'm ok with you not liking it.
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...I use MoG and you're bitter that I've learned how to use it and you poo poo on it every chance you get. I'll still hold that it is a truly heroic power for those experienced enough to use it correctly. You have proven you are not one of those. Let it be, let it go. I'm ok with you not liking it.
[/ QUOTE ]
That statement pretty much invalidates itself, you're basically saying "he's too stupid to use MoG, but you're smarter than the average bear and can use MoG." then He reponds "Oh yeah, prove it. My brother is bigger than your brother."
So, you both disagree vehemently. There's nothing wrong with "subjective" reasoning, especially in cases like this. But one persons subjective opinion can vary greatly from anothers, but both are subjectively equally valid.
Now, if anyone wants add something "objective" with measureable, reproduceable, scientifically validatable by a third (or any /regen) party, then PLEASE add that information. I personally would love to have some specific cases I could test (on test center) and I'm sure the dev's would be more willing to listen to specific reproducable results. There likely are multiple (scientifically reproducable) scenarios that will support both viewpoints, and the real answer will be found in comparing how often one can reasonably be expected to encounter each scenario.
But if all you have to offer is comparisons of your intellectual, hand eye coordination, or other prowess, try to restrain yourself.
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You know that whatever you say I can give you a way to do it better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mostly, by claiming regen scrappers can always keep enough lucks around to substitute for MoG. But the level of lucks required to do that, if SR scrappers and Invuln scrappers kept them also, would largely eliminate the usefulness of Elude and Unstoppable as well.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
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...I use MoG and you're bitter that I've learned how to use it and you poo poo on it every chance you get. I'll still hold that it is a truly heroic power for those experienced enough to use it correctly. You have proven you are not one of those. Let it be, let it go. I'm ok with you not liking it.
[/ QUOTE ]
That statement pretty much invalidates itself, you're basically saying "he's too stupid to use MoG, but you're smarter than the average bear and can use MoG." then He reponds "Oh yeah, prove it. My brother is bigger than your brother."
So, you both disagree vehemently. There's nothing wrong with "subjective" reasoning, especially in cases like this. But one persons subjective opinion can vary greatly from anothers, but both are subjectively equally valid.
Now, if anyone wants add something "objective" with measureable, reproduceable, scientifically validatable by a third (or any /regen) party, then PLEASE add that information. I personally would love to have some specific cases I could test (on test center) and I'm sure the dev's would be more willing to listen to specific reproducable results. There likely are multiple (scientifically reproducable) scenarios that will support both viewpoints, and the real answer will be found in comparing how often one can reasonably be expected to encounter each scenario.
But if all you have to offer is comparisons of your intellectual, hand eye coordination, or other prowess, try to restrain yourself.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I apologize for not paraphrasing all of our other discussions that include scenarios, situations, etc... And you came in long after we've had our proofs and facts on display. If you look back through all the months and hundreds of postings you'll find our results. And I think there are very strong arguments for both sides. But if you want specific cases feel free to search for the other posts. Many of them are quite detailed and even have people other than EG and me posting opinions. In fact, this posting has a lot of explanations you are asking for too, all I ask there is that you read them before posting that this information is not being presented to you.
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You know that whatever you say I can give you a way to do it better.
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Mostly, by claiming regen scrappers can always keep enough lucks around to substitute for MoG. But the level of lucks required to do that, if SR scrappers and Invuln scrappers kept them also, would largely eliminate the usefulness of Elude and Unstoppable as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, not at all. There are multiple ways to deal with problems other than pill popping. Hell, most times a Regen just needs to back off for a couple of seconds and kite with their ranged attack (of course only available after 44 except for Spines/Claws). Situational awareness beats crappy uber buttons all the time. So does the controls in the primaries/epics. Or Aid Self. Or the fear clicks. So many things besides MoG you can use. Not just inspirations.
As I keep saying, I rarely use inspirations and I NEVER use MoG although I have both in my tray. Really in groups fighting +4s I just play a little more tactically. The rare times I do die with my 50 Regen its because of an alpha strike.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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because you don't know how well I use MoG
[/ QUOTE ]
Please enlighten me then. I've told you many times. I'm willing to be proven wrong. Stop with the flames and just do it.
EDIT: And Wokka, if at the end of this, it boils down to: "I just like MoG EG and I make it work for me!" Cool. But then leave me alone. I have every bit as much right to despise MoG as you do to like it. I've always acknowledged that people have a right to like the power. Don't say I don't know how to play because I do. Don't say that I have found no uses for MoG because I have. I've just found better ways to deal with those situations.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
This one time, I was like running down the street and I ran into a bunch of level 10 mobs, must have been like 50 of the bastards and I popped MoG and WHAMO! pwned them all just liek that!
MoG rulez! ;p
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I'm better than inspirations!
AM SO! 
*stomps feet and runs away*
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Awwww, Luminara, you are an inspiration. 
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... In fact, this posting has a lot of explanations you are asking for too, all I ask there is that you read them before posting that this information is not being presented to you.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've read the entire post, and just reread it all to see what I may have missed.
So we have 3 useful posts, and 2 neutral posts out of 80 ?
The signal to noise ratio is even worse in the other MoG posts I've read. If you want dev attention you need to increase the signal level. If this is going to be an "definitive" "guide" or "reference" for the MoG debate, then make it just that. Present your arguements concisely and completely and leave the bickering in the other threads, there's plenty of it there.
On the other hand, this thread may already be past saving.
On the "MoG is good" side of the debate, all I see is Arcana's post. Unless you want to count the "MoG only sucks because you suck" posts.
Arcana's arguement is not enough to sway me into the "MoG is good" camp. I'd like to see enough of an arguement that I could at the least say "MoG is good HERE, MoG is nuetral HERE, and MoG is BAD HERE" when someone asks me about the power. Right now I'm left with "Some People swear by it, but I see little proof of it's benefits (beyond large egos). Others, and it appears to be a majority, Hate it. There seem few opinions in-between. Personally, if you're asking the question you're not likely an experienced enough player to benefit from MoG, a power that appears to only be useful to an elite highly skilled few." (and when it's a level 50 regens asking that question, It makes me wonder what exactly were the dev's thinking)
So I really do want to know, what makes MoG a good power. What makes it's benefits outweight it's penalties. Can it's benefits truely be used more often than it's penalties.
And no I really don't want to read 800 or 8000 posts of garbage and flaming just to find 8-10 usefull posts. If you're serious about making this a MoG reference then make one and present both sides and don't make people have to search thru and read the likely thousands of flames and useless garbage.
Asking someone to read all the MoG posts is like asking someone to read all the "taunt vs no taunt" posts in the tankers forums. yet I did somewhere manage to find a good guide to taunting (or not taunting) there. A guide that presented the facts and let the user make their own decision. If they chose to taunt, it presented the best way to go about doing just that. If they chose to not taunt, it presented the best way to use guantlet instead. A similar resource for MoG would be very useful, I would think.
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...if at the end of this, it boils down to: "I just like MoG EG and I make it work for me!" Cool. But then leave me alone. I have every bit as much right to despise MoG as you do to like it...
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So really then, this comes down to the right to demonstrate peacefully and express political ideas without oppression from the establishment.
I know that you aren't really meaning it to come across this way, but taking the opportunity--if your persecuters are not members of the establishment, then your rights are not being violated per se. No one has the right to express themselves in a public forum and not have the forum experience the reactions, good or bad, of others with access to that forum.
It's really the essence of gripe I have with the idea that it's not OK to offend someone in a public (or private for that matter) forum. I think it is a good thing to be offended. It's helps you keep some perspective on the fact that you don't have a monopoly on point of view and that no one else does either. To believe otherwise is delusional at best.
On a personal level, I find myself deeply offended on a daily basis by the vehement expression of ideas which have no basis in fact or coherent thought, let alone reality, especially when rationalizing such arguments in ways that matters of great import are reduced to mere means to further some person's or group's self-interest.
On the matter of MoG (the actual topic of the thread as opposed to my philosophical viewpoint and blathering thereof), although I monkey around with it on my Regen, I have to agree with "your side of the argument" in a great many cases. The only times that I really and truly see MoG improving my situation are when IH is not an option and I'm fresh out of Purples...and when I have one second to click something and run away...or die.
The best part of MoG is the chance to shout "Moment of GLOOOOOOOOOOORY" when you use it. It's fun. All other arguements are pointless.
I use MoG in EB and AV fights when Fast Healing wears off. Granted, some psychic bosses will smite you, but it's fun to go toe to toe with Marauder and out last his uber defense power.
Keep in mind.......this Power has had quite a few (IMO massively stupid) changes to it in the past 2 years. Regen as a whole has, in general. But MoG has always been "special".
It's had a LOT of actual, wise, well-thought out discussions during this time. But now? Now it's just a joke to talk about. There isn't anything left to discuss, highlight, or debate the merits of.
That's how I look at it anyway. When the Devs finally, publicly, and seriously decide to look into it, I hope the debates of old come back and help the Devs along and not hinder them.
But until then, personally, I plan to just continue to mock this power and the multitude of threads for it that pop up just about every day.
I've already forgotten about most of you
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So I really do want to know, what makes MoG a good power. What makes it's benefits outweight it's penalties. Can it's benefits truely be used more often than it's penalties.
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Its benefits are not supposed to necessarily outweigh its own deficts: its benefits are supposed to outweigh regeneration's deficits. The presumption that a power's advantages should outweigh its disadvantages presumes something strange: it presumes people will use the power randomly, without concern for its strengths and weaknessess. The power's strength determines how useful it is: its weaknessess determine how often its going to be useful. Saying MoG's strengths don't outweigh its weaknessess is like saying a pizza coupon's $5 off doesn't outweigh its limitation that its only good on Sundays: you're not supposed to compare those two things directly like that, and you're being silly when you do.
Its therefore specifically useful in the areas defense is more useful than regeneration in general: usually heavy (non-defense) debuffing environments. What makes it a good power? It offers the *choice* of switching to a high defense stance, which defers most secondary effects (like debuffs) when debuffing is more dangerous than pure damage. What is heavily discounted by most people who think MoG is totally worthless is the fact that that choice is inherently valuable. Its not always the case that MoG is the *better* choice: in fact, it usually is not. But no other scrapper set actually gets a chance to have its full strength by level 28, and then on top of that a significantly strong 38 power that has *none* of the intrinsic sets' weaknessess. Even if its only useful one time in a hundred, that is one time in a hundred no other scrapper (or melee set, really) gets. In any other protection set, this would be universally seen as a benefit: its often not in the regen set because the rest of the set is so powerful already.
A legitimate argument that MoG is flawed is comparing its overall performance during its situationally useful windows. There, we're talking about its defensive strength, and its lack of regeneration, as part of its *overall* total strength, not a "strength vs weakness" issue. Its one of the reasons I originally calculated, then claimed, that MoG lasts too long (and suggested a proper running time for it: about 120 seconds, depending on certain factors). I also agree (and was saying long ago) that another inherent design error (in my opinion) with MoG is that it locks out *all* external buffing, not just regeneration (which its designed to do). MoG scrappers cannot be effectively defense or resistance buffed, on top of being unable to be regeneratively buffed or healed, which does not appear to be explicitly intentional, but a nasty side effect of the power's mechanics.
I just don't think it is bad for the same reasons as others do (specifically, the charge that it has no net benefit whatsoever), which is significant when it comes to suggesting fixes. I might think it needs fixing, but I tend to disagree with 99% of all suggestions for fixing it, mostly because they tend to be significantly unbalanced.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
I know that you aren't really meaning it to come across this way, but taking the opportunity--if your persecuters are not members of the establishment, then your rights are not being violated per se. No one has the right to express themselves in a public forum and not have the forum experience the reactions, good or bad, of others with access to that forum.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wokka personalizes it to me. Disagree all you want. Arcana does. I love the argument.
But I've had Wokka call me out in post I wasn't even looking at. Others have had to tell me about them. I'm not the only one who doesn't like MoG. Now I'll admit my responses to him have not been the kindest either, but I've never initiated a personal battle.
When someone asks about MoG I just tell them what I think and say try before you buy and then either Wokka or Alisson come in to tell me I don't know how to play. That's what I object to.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I really do want to know, what makes MoG a good power. What makes it's benefits outweight it's penalties. Can it's benefits truely be used more often than it's penalties.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its therefore specifically useful in the areas defense is more useful than regeneration in general: usually heavy (non-defense) debuffing environments. What makes it a good power? It offers the *choice* of switching to a high defense stance, which defers most secondary effects (like debuffs) when debuffing is more dangerous than pure damage. What is heavily discounted by most people who think MoG is totally worthless is the fact that that choice is inherently valuable. Its not always the case that MoG is the *better* choice: in fact, it usually is not. But no other scrapper set actually gets a chance to have its full strength by level 28, and then on top of that a significantly strong 38 power that has *none* of the intrinsic sets' weaknessess. Even if its only useful one time in a hundred, that is one time in a hundred no other scrapper (or melee set, really) gets. In any other protection set, this would be universally seen as a benefit: its often not in the regen set because the rest of the set is so powerful already.
[/ QUOTE ]
This would all be true IF we didn't have to make a choice between MoG and some other power. I've always disagreed with looking at a set and saying "X" power is fine because "Y" power is in the same set. That assumes a known falsehood, that people will select every power in a set.
There is a VERY large opportunity cost in taking MoG. It's a power its defenders acknowledge they don't use often. Thus if the choice is between MoG and a power which will be used much more often, I would go with the power that will be used.
One more thing about that. I think every power has to stand on its own merits because the way our character advancement system works, it DOES need to stand on its own. There is a player asking whether he or she should get Tough or MoG on the Scrapper forums. Even a lot of MoG defenders say get Tough. A power that's always there for you is a better choice than a power you'll hardly use.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know that you aren't really meaning it to come across this way, but taking the opportunity--if your persecuters are not members of the establishment, then your rights are not being violated per se. No one has the right to express themselves in a public forum and not have the forum experience the reactions, good or bad, of others with access to that forum.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wokka personalizes it to me. Disagree all you want. Arcana does. I love the argument.
But I've had Wokka call me out in post I wasn't even looking at. Others have had to tell me about them. I'm not the only one who doesn't like MoG. Now I'll admit my responses to him have not been the kindest either, but I've never initiated a personal battle.
When someone asks about MoG I just tell them what I think and say try before you buy and then either Wokka or Alisson come in to tell me I don't know how to play. That's what I object to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then the solution is simple: Track them down and KILL THEM BOTH! Don't look at Personal Attacks as anything more than an opportunity to classify someone in the dichotomy between people with whom you can carry on a discussion and people you can't. That's what I do. In fact, if I can just personally attack a few more people this week...oh, wait...
did this, and I'll stick with Phase Shift.
Also, having to go to a PVP zone or buy a temp power doesn't do it for me.
Thanks for the advice though.
EDIT: Just want to mention that as a stalker, who already took stealth and invisiblity, Phase isn't a three power choice for me. So it really is either Phase of MoG. My experience on TEST says Phase Shift.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Which is why I'm going with Phase Shift. I have to agree with EvilGecko (even though I don't agree with all his reasoning) but MoG IS a gamble.
When it fails it sucks! But oh baby when it works, it's a lot of fun.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Never mind. This outdated now.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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MoG is a fantastic power, even the way it is now. Despite limitations as described above, if you have any trouble with PvE as a regen then the problem is with you and your tactics, not the powerset.
Epistropheus 50 DM/Regen
[/ QUOTE ]
Prove it. Give me any situation, you would use MoG in and I'll show you a way to do it safer. Because in fact, if you're using MoG to save yourself it's probably your tactics that are deficient.
[/ QUOTE ]
"prove it" has been one of your most common comebacks to people who like MoG, and I know that you've been looking for instruction in how to use MoG but you've either not listened or not learned.
Still, I'm not going to teach you yet again because I believe you don't want to hear from mog sympathizers.
Also, the list you had of villain groups that will affect MoG also affect other AT's that don't have MoG available to them. No one really gets psi protection. And lol NO ONE can resist Hami damage so seeing it on your list makes me believe you are really reaching for negative things about MoG. And all because you haven't learned how to deal with it to your advantage. It will always be sour grapes to you.
But, I will give you credit for finally omitting the false claim that MoG goes against the regen set.
[/ QUOTE ]e.g. has provided his reasoning in a guide,to dispute it and yet make no effort to refute it is just the presentation of emotion without reason.sorry but prove it is the only just response.
but then again you are not jumping to the defence of a fellow forum poster are you?you are entering the fray with your arch-nemisis and the battle field is moment of glory.
pardon me if i do not break into tears becuse you have chosen not to "teach" us how to use the power.i am fairly sure at this point that you have nothing to offer.
the refute to the claim that no one gets psi protection is already in(if incomplete).and well no one else has hamidon protection,no one else has to deal with his damage at a fourth of there life with no way to recover health.
and the claim that as a protective power mog goes against a set that deals with damage by healing it better then any other.still seems as valid as ever when it eliminates all health recivery all together,somthing no other set ever has to put up with from there powers.saying that it recovers end is rubish when that end will not ba able to provide you any protection whatsoever.
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MoG is a fantastic power, even the way it is now. Despite limitations as described above, if you have any trouble with PvE as a regen then the problem is with you and your tactics, not the powerset.
Epistropheus 50 DM/Regen
[/ QUOTE ]
Prove it. Give me any situation, you would use MoG in and I'll show you a way to do it safer. Because in fact, if you're using MoG to save yourself it's probably your tactics that are deficient.
[/ QUOTE ]
"prove it" has been one of your most common comebacks to people who like MoG, and I know that you've been looking for instruction in how to use MoG but you've either not listened or not learned.
Still, I'm not going to teach you yet again because I believe you don't want to hear from mog sympathizers.
Also, the list you had of villain groups that will affect MoG also affect other AT's that don't have MoG available to them. No one really gets psi protection. And lol NO ONE can resist Hami damage so seeing it on your list makes me believe you are really reaching for negative things about MoG. And all because you haven't learned how to deal with it to your advantage. It will always be sour grapes to you.
But, I will give you credit for finally omitting the false claim that MoG goes against the regen set.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem is that not only do they affect you like they do everyone else, some of those will do proportionaly more damage now that your health has been dropped to 25%. Whith the psi whole in both resist and defense, any hit will amount to 400% more then it did before you activated mog.