[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is there Debt in PvP zones at all?
[/ QUOTE ]
-unconstructive response-
To ensure that I never go.
So let's see... that's:
- No AV fights
- No Hamidon Raids
- No Giant Monster fights (including TFs with GMs)
- No PvP
- Street sweeping aint worth it anymore
- CoV is too laggy
So I'll be doing CoH door missions, and Costume Contests. Atleast my playing choices are simplified. Thank you Devs.
-constructive response-
...
I got nothing.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Especially since the Megalomaniacal Badge requires you to kill 100 Shivans (Men in Black/Woman in Black Badge). So much for not having to go into a PvP zone if you don't want to.
[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize there's a whole mission in the 15-20 range that spawns nothing BUT shivans in Diable, right?
Farming that one mission instead of going into the PvP zone seems like a fair trade-off, especially if you compare it to the hellish kind of badges heroes need to get such as Illusionist or Banisher.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, except that you also need Last Stand from Recluses Victory.
<Edit> and triumphant from Grandville.
SadysCHICK ALL the Badges! (I can get. 1396)
Full image by David Nakayama
Arc ID 1435: Performing without Annette
Arc ID 7206: Sadystic Tendencies
Arc ID 3864: The Chronicles of (In)FERNIA!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
wow....not like there were a bunch of folks running to pvp zones as is. I know for one, that I won't be going back.
Bad idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
I fail to see how it is a 'bad idea'. You may not like it, but that really doesn't make it bad - especially since you go into no details.
I think it's a fine idea. Reduces the amount of debt you get for damage done to you by players. How can that be "bad"?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because number 1, you never got debt from other players, and number 2, it takes less effort to give you debt from an enemy teleport.
SadysCHICK ALL the Badges! (I can get. 1396)
Full image by David Nakayama
Arc ID 1435: Performing without Annette
Arc ID 7206: Sadystic Tendencies
Arc ID 3864: The Chronicles of (In)FERNIA!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
O...M...G!!!
With all the things this game has wrong with it right now, they worry about this?? I mean seriously, how often did anyone ever intentionally get killed by a PC in order to avoid debt caused by an NPC in a PVP zone? Is this really that prevalent of an issue?
Where's the "pulling my hair out" smiley.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. It boggles my mind that they actually devote time to fix something that isn"t broken while we have server instability, and frequent game crashes. I mean, hello!?
SadysCHICK ALL the Badges! (I can get. 1396)
Full image by David Nakayama
Arc ID 1435: Performing without Annette
Arc ID 7206: Sadystic Tendencies
Arc ID 3864: The Chronicles of (In)FERNIA!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Further testing on my end indicates that there's a "timer" of some kind on the debt. Seems to be 60 seconds or 2 minutes. After that, no debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's just staggeringly bad.
In under 60 seconds: Fight a mob. Get whittled down to 2% health. Defeat the mob. Heal yourself back up to 99% health. Get one-shotted by a stalker. Get 98% of the FULL DEBT for an OUTDOOR DEFEAT.
By what demented standard is this acceptable?
[/ QUOTE ]
Positron's. Haven't you noticed? Anything that hoses the player and makes the game less fun is a great idea in his book.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
490 / 990 = .4949... or about 49% debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good point: but what if you were taken down to 2% several times over the course of the fight? It seems that ALL the NPC damage you take is 'remembered' for the purposes of assigning proportional debt. For a low HP class like a Dom, it would be possible to have a record of three or four times your total HP in NPC damage. Bang, a player kills you, the debt is way off the scale.
Yay. I just discovered a new reason why Doms suck in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
To answer your question, you don't get "debt off the scale." You'd actually get debt that asymptotically approaches 100%. Let me demonstrate with an "extreme" example.
Let's pretend for a moment the 60 second rule wasn't there (so that I can make my example even more extreme than in real life). You, with your 500 hp, fight 5,144 Hellions in a row. In each fight, each Hellion takes you to 10 hp (490 hp of NPC damage). After each fight, you heal back up to full before taking on the next Hellion. Finally some Stalker notices your horrific killing spree, and takes you out (500 hp of PC damage). Here's the math:
490 hp of NPC damage multiplied by 5,144 Hellions = 2,520,560 hp of NPC damage.
You've taken 500 hp of PC damage, so *total* damage is NPC damage + PC damage = 2,521,060.
Plug into formula (i.e. NPC damage / Total damage) and you get:
2,520,560 / 2,521,060 = 0.9999999 ... (pretty much rounds to 1). That would be 100% debt; i.e. normal debt. Not "debt off the scale."
Again. Not saying I like the change - I think it could have been better. But I feel the need to play devil's advocate here and point out that the dooooooom is not quite as dooooooomy as getting the math problem wrong might lead you to believe...
M.A. Arcs
Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice!
)Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
wow....not like there were a bunch of folks running to pvp zones as is. I know for one, that I won't be going back.
Bad idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
I fail to see how it is a 'bad idea'. You may not like it, but that really doesn't make it bad - especially since you go into no details.
I think it's a fine idea. Reduces the amount of debt you get for damage done to you by players. How can that be "bad"?
[/ QUOTE ]
Under the i6 system you would get NO debt from a player defeat. SO if you were attacking a mob in a pvp zone and it does 50% damage to you then Johney Stalker comes bouncing by and kills ya, you would get ZERO debt.
NOW with this change, you would get at least 50% outside debt, and since you were in a weakened state, you could be one-shotted.
Being killed by a player character in a PvP zone causing debt=bad thing.
That make it clear for ya?
Let me get this straight, you guys were worrying about stuff like this when you haven't even rolled back the AV/GM change which had how many bad responses to it?? I would kinda think that's a bit more of a priority.
Oh, and I agree with the people who think is bad, this allows new kinds of griefing.
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
It also means I will never again take part in Siren's Call with a non 50, and i have no lvl 50 toons. I was already getting @#$% with the ease of being held and killed by npcs already, now this on top seal the deal.
AFAIK, this pvp debt change was always part of I7, and no one noticed.
I'm going to have to jump on the "This is awful" bandwagon too. While the numbers look nice in writing, you must realise that more often than not, a player will get the killing blow while you fight NPCs, than the other way around. Also, as someone else pointed out (This actually happened to me), in Siren's Call, doing hotspots, I was at around 50% health (I was a regen, so that meant I had extra NPC damage on me I think), feeling pretty safe. Then out of the blue, ASSASIN'S STRIKE! HALF A FRIGGIN BAR OF DEBT. From a safe health point. Way to kill the hotspots and all other pve in pvp zones. Why not just put a metal cage around them while you're there?
I must also express my anger at the fact at that a completely unecessary debt change took precedence over [Insert however many as you want: Server Stability, A fix for MM pet zoning, the escaping mob + knockback = instant failure glitch, the multiple otherwise glitched missions, the craptacularly inaccurate guide]
Edit: I have no font skills.
[ QUOTE ]
Not.
Good.
Enough.
Not mad at you Cuppa (not going to shoot the messenger) but something's gotta give. Of all the things I have been ticked off about the way aspects of this game have been handled, the existence of debt in PvP zones is probably my biggest personal bone of contention. From the first promise of "debt free" PvP in the zones, you guys have yet to deliver. Some other form of "risk=reward" equation needs to be developed (and there have been tons of suggestions on what that could be) in PvP zones. The system you're discussing implementing seems even more trouble than half of those suggestions, and still doesn't address the real problem.
I don't want PvP to interfere with my PvE.. and debt does this!
So, I don't do PvP... a lot of folks don't, for just that reason. I don't think that's what you guys want.
Almost every time this has been brought up (and possibly here, I haven't bothered to read all of them because this debate just frustrates me to no end) someone says "deal with it" or somesuchrot...
I have dealt with it. I don't PvP except very rarely. Solved as far as I'm concerned. I think I'd really enjoy the free-flow PvP that exists in the zones, but I don't want debt from it creeping into my PvE game, so I generally avoid it. I don't think that makes anyone, myself included, any happier about the situation though.
It seems to me, with all the recent Hammi changes and the Arch Villain and Giant Monster Changes the customer base is becoming increasingly unhappy about the direction you guys are taking the game at large. Worse, it seems the Dev's, who created this board for feedback, largely either are ignoring that feedback or not really paying attention. This change you're now looking at implementing only serves to Illustrate this. Does what you say match the title? No.
Not.
Good.
Enough.
For those who continue to support and/or make excuses for these changes the most worthy argument I've heard is "If you show the numbers, the Dev's will listen". Well, in some cases, we don't have those numbers. This seems to be getting better, but still not where it should be if that's the primary criteria for them listening to us.
I've heard that the Dev's ignore posts that are "emotionally" based (whether or not this is true, I don't know. This has usually be said by the same players that insist on seeing our numbers for why we are unhappy). Isn't the fact that a rather a large number of players are unhappy, justifiably so (to the point where even the Dev's admit they made some things too difficult, like in the case of the AV and GM changes) reason enough?
The point is the playerbase at large seems to be growing more and more displeased with every update... every additional "challenge" added that makes tedious things like Hammi and a lot of AV fights even more tedious. Every "nerf" that needs something to be fixed (like Positron agreeing that Phase Shift needed a reduction in activation time to make it the "uh-oh" power it was "inteded" to be after the change to make it a 30 second long recharge toggle) that continues to go unattended to help rectify it. For every undocumented change (especially when they're not in our favor) that we, the player base, have to uncover... Not to mention the all the QoL issues that have gone ignored, and game effecting bugs that have been around since near the beginning...all these things, little by little, continue to erode our trust in where this game is going, and only serve to make us more unhappy...
But short of us posting here, how do you quantify "unhappy"??
We don't need to know how much damage we do vs. how fast the GM's regenerate to know that their bar stays full to be unhappy about it. We don't need to know the ammount of debt we gain vs how much xp we get in PvP zones to know that almost every time if we're actually in there to PvP and not street hunt, we'll leave with more debt than xp to know we're unhappy about it.
I play games to have fun. I play games to enjoy myself. If you can quantify that, then maybe quoting numbers is the way to go. If you can't, then listen to how your player base "feels" about a change at least as much as the numbers. Sometimes.. just sometimes... that should be enough.
I can still find a few things that are more "fun" than "frustrating" as it is now.. but that number seems to be dropping, especially as the folks I like to play with move on to greener pastures because their "fun" vs "frustration" meter gets filled.
Start listening...
Edit: Yes, I know they're changing the regen rate on the GM's and whatnot... the point is it shouldn't have made it to live like that to begin with.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
This about some up my feelings on the matter.
So mad right now..
So Mad
Okay, so let me get this straight...the developers have the resources to provide a blow by blow breakdown of the damage taken from pvp opponents and AI mobs but they can't spare any resources to data mine so those of us that completed badgeless task forces can receive the appropriate badges now that the badges are available (i.e. Moonfire and all Shadowshard TF's). That blows if you ask me!
Devs:
There arent words to express the disappointment and anger I feel as a result of this change. In your infinite wisdom, you have placed NPCs EVERYWHERE in PVP zones, and now allowed debt to occur because of these NPCs even if they dont get the killing blow, thereby making it that much easier to get debt with this change and discouraging anyone who isnt level 50 from PvP.
I have several non-50 toons that I take into PVP zones, because PvP is sometimes a nice break from the PVE grind. I am disinclined to take them into PvP zones now because of the debt I incur. Many times NPC attacks are inevitable. An example today: My 39 corruptor was leaping through the zone, took damage from a Sky Skiff as I leapt by. I was then pounced upon by a hero group and quickly killed, and as a result I incurred debt. I wasnt trying to exploit the system or somehow avoid risk=reward, I was just leaping by, was shot by an NPC, and then got debt when I was jumped by some heroes. Even a "proportional" about of debt at 39 or 40+ can be substantial, considering that you're out in a zone and debt is increased. I dont want to risk slowing down the leveling speed of all my toons just for PVP. PvP has no reward but the enjoyment of it, itself. So now my risk definitely does not equal my reward. I dont get XP for killing Players, I shouldnt get debt from it either.
Was this change *really* necessary? Does this improve the fun of this game in any way? Were people truly exploiting this "loophole"? And to top it off, you didnt even include it in the patch notes.
I swear, I dont know what you guys are thinking anymore. With many of the changes you're making, CoH/CoV is taking a decidingly unfun and frustrating turn.
I've been here since CoH launched, and I've been through a lot of changes. I can understand the need for some changes for balance reasons, but seriously, you guys are making so many negative changes that the fun factor that this game offers is starting to go away.
If nothing but frustration is replacing fun, you're doing something wrong.
When I first read the change, I thought cool...I wont get full debt when im fighting a hero/villain and a npc and die. What I didnt get is that I woudl get debt if the player killed me. Thats ridiculous!
Im almost guaranteed to take damage from a longbow in siren's call or a patrol in warburg. Now im guaranteed to get debt every time I go PvP. For someone who really enjoys PvP, this makes me NOT want to PvP unless I use a 50. And if I dont want to PvP, then...
This also hurts Brutes who fight npcs to build fury, doms who fight npcs to build domination, any toon that needs a npc to gain a buff or heal (kins, darks, /ea toons, soul drain).
The way it SHOULD work is that if a npc kills you, you take proportionate debt with what damage the npc did to you. But if a player kills you, no debt.
[ QUOTE ]
Then accolades aren't for you, I'm afraid.
There's no way you'll get badges like Zookeeper through normal playing to level 50. And if you solo, you'll never get Illusionists or Unveiler or possibly even Banisher by yourself without a team to spawn multiple bosses/LTs.
[/ QUOTE ]
*Looks at badge* Wow, guess you never learned much about this game aside from how to PL and farm then...
Through normal play you can score a solid 200+ rikti monkeys, then there's that wonderful monkey island in peregrine, packs O' monkeys, no mission reseting, no farming needed...right there, street hunt.
Oh and illusionist badge? I fought in missions and got about halfway naturally. Then I caught a pair of Masters in Peregrine while on a team w/ a controller buddy. We were close to or 50 and they were low 40s. He held them and they spawned ills and we poked each of them for badge after about 30 minutes...
never had to farm a mission.
Unveiler? Teamed in PI, AGAIN, they're everywhere. Coulda done it myself but woulda been slower solo.
Banisher? Unless you're a "n00b" or just mentally handicapped there's no way you haven't heard about or seen the massive banisher spawning near the Dark Astoria entrance at night... can easily nail 10+ a night cycle.
[ QUOTE ]
It's the way it's always been, though. PvP has nothing to do with some skewed badge requirements that have been in the game since issue 2.
[/ QUOTE ]
As for skewed, the monkeys used to be 10,000....
Villains have much fewer places to get these badges outside missions. For heroes monkeys, fake nemes, PPs, etc etc etc all spawn in abundance in one zone or another.
Villains don't have these options.
[ QUOTE ]
Of course, you say this as Pinnacle has two instances of Recluse's Victory open...
[/ QUOTE ]
Might have something to do with ABSOLUTELY NO PVE END CONTENT FOR HEROS OR ANY HERO CONTENT IN ISSUE 7...
[ QUOTE ]
I know. Just was curious why some changes can pushed through such as Hami and PVP zone debt without testing, but something that is a clear "fix" has to be testing. Seems... backwards? Everything should go to Test before coming within 100 yards of Live unless it's a massive exploit/emergency.
[/ QUOTE ]
Conspiracy theorist answer: Because if there's a bug that needs fixing it's slowing our progress and keeping us playing and paying since some people might "finish" and move on...this way it slows them down...same for changes to make the game tougher...
[ QUOTE ]
You don't need to have PvP in the game either.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know what PvP has added to the game? Animosity and anger. Moreso than anything else PvP can bring out the worst in people or otherwise showcases the worst types of people.
[ QUOTE ]
Positron's. Haven't you noticed? Anything that hoses the player and makes the game less fun is a great idea in his book.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes the Padawan is now the master. Jack "Kick 'em when they're down" Emmert taught him well
Yep, let me voice my intense dislike for this change as well. 50k of debt for my TA defender, accumulated in half an hour of the new PvP means roughly 2 hours of soloing to wipe away. Bleh. Guess I won't bother trying to PvP on pickup teams anymore.
[ QUOTE ]
I've been here since CoH launched, and I've been through a lot of changes. I can understand the need for some changes for balance reasons, but seriously, you guys are making so many negative changes that the fun factor that this game offers is starting to go away.
If nothing but frustration is replacing fun, you're doing something wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good post. I feel very similarly to you. I have been here since CoH beta (took a break or two but still). I was asked around E3 time by a friend who also plays if I heard anything cool about upcoming MMOGs. I stated "I haven't read much about E3. I'm happy in CoH/CoV and plan to stay a while."
But honestly, after going through I7 on test and now on live, with all of the changes, and seeing how certain things are turning out (accolades, PPPs, tier 9's in pvp, debt, dom can't solo EBs w/o shivans, crappy game performance on good machines, etc), I am starting to reconsider. I don't want a game where I feel I can only PvP at level 50. What is the point of opening the zones to non-50's again?
How about we fix stuff like Mace for tankers, which has been craptastic for two years now, instead of making PvP less fun overall? And yes, I understand that different areas work on differents parts of the game simultaneously, but I'm thinking it's about time for some realignment (like taking some people out of the "nerfing fun" team and putting them elsewhere like the mailroom).
[ QUOTE ]
Just remember. Debt is a badge. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you earn Deathless, then when you get to level 49, you should actually be at level 50. So you wasted/lost all the time that it takes to get from 49-50. That is what debt ultimately costs you - about 2/3 days of play.
Some people care about that. Others don't.
The Widow's Dark Hand - leader of Faux Pas
Champion Server
Tee Hee!
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
now i know why i am getting debt in zones now
i do not like this method
Ex-Mayor of Champion
I Love all my Championites. I hope to see everyone once again.
SHOWTIME - You guys are like my family!
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
Worst Idea ever.
So now rather then a PC killing me after i have defeated enemies in a PVP zone and getting no debt, they can let the bosses and guns soften me up, now kill off my last few HPs and i get debt when i defeated the NPC but the hero or villian did the finishing damage to me.
Not only that but you have AVs and Heroes now runnign around in PVP zones that are one shotting PCing. my blaster can take at level 50 with Force of nature and temp inv running a 1 hit kill from one of those AVs, Sorry folks sounds like you just killed off pvp in this game for good. Anyone not level 50 is pretty much insane to even try now.
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
Awesome - thank you, this opens another level of griefing up really. 
@artphobia
To the best dev team ever: I enjoyed meeting you all at the Summits and best of luck in all your future endeavors.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Also no XP or Prestige in PvP zones.
[/ QUOTE ]
HA.. hahahhaha ... *sniff* ahh anyways.
No thanks. I'm not goin to dig some scientest out of The Web in Warburg for zero xp given for all the junk I must clear out of the way.
@artphobia
To the best dev team ever: I enjoyed meeting you all at the Summits and best of luck in all your future endeavors.
The devs can do whatever they want in pvp.
As long as I can dress up in a pair of spandex and Destroy my enemies. I will be there.
I have some issues with hero vs villain balance but none with debt. This game has the smallest debt penalty I have seen in the last 15 years of mmo's. Bring it on. I call debt, my pvp encouraged savings account.
and yes, I know, I view the world differently than most.
[ QUOTE ]
You dont' NEED all the badges in the game
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to have PvP in the game either.