I'll tell you now, I didn't read the thread except the first page of posts. I am not here to debate anything that was said in this thread. Just want to give my opinion on the topic.
I have said for months that debt, XP, influence, and prestige should be taken away from PvP zones, as well as the missions in the zones. The emphasis of the zones should be PvP, but it has gotten away from that emphasis.
But sadly, everytime I bring this us, I get flammed to hell, so good luck to you OP on trying to make this happen. It's a rough journey.
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I'll tell you now, I didn't read the thread except the first page of posts. I am not here to debate anything that was said in this thread. Just want to give my opinion on the topic.
I have said for months that debt, XP, influence, and prestige should be taken away from PvP zones, as well as the missions in the zones. The emphasis of the zones should be PvP, but it has gotten away from that emphasis.
But sadly, everytime I bring this us, I get flammed to hell, so good luck to you OP on trying to make this happen. It's a rough journey.
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Triox, Go to hell. :-)
Ok that being said i actually would have no problem with that at all. With one acception. Unfortunately the Devs replaced the idea of having fun, huntable harzard zones like RCS, Creys folly, Perez Park, Dark Astoria etc, with the idea of pvp zones it seems. THink there are no hazard zones in COV. Only the city zones that they seemed to have made more densly populated, and the PVP zones.
I personally would love to see small team street sweeping friendly city zones and more difficult, more boss ridden hazard zones like COH has and then remove all xp factoring from PVP. If you dont get xp from mobs in PVP zones, then there is no reason why its unbalanced to not get any debt from them either. The population of the zone can then become legitamately part of PVP with out any complaints.
I just re-read my post, and the way I put it sounds different from what I meant. I believe there should be door missions in PvP zones, just the missions and the mobs in the mission should not give XP, influence/infamy, prestige or debt.
It would seem that the only reason why someone would do a door mission in a PvP zone would be to buff/debuff the sides. And if they are going to go through that much trouble to complete the mission just for the buff/debuff, they will be more incluned to stay and PvP afterwards.
Don't know if anyone took what I said in the other post the wrong way, but just wanted to0 clarify what I meant.
This new PvP patch is really dumb on the Devs part.. Getting debt for a stalker ASing you in the middle of a mob or getting killed by a player with critical health is really dumb. And to make things worse the Devs didnt even include this in the PATCH LIST, which is totally inexcuseable. Well I really hope they change this around because at this rate the PvP zones are going to be wastezones.
Bad decision Dev's. To many people try to use NPC's to soften up there targets via TP foe or just by choosing fights where NPC interferance is more likely to occur. Part of the fun with PvP was that I could go and have fun fighting others (in a much more fatal environment BTW) and not fear debt. There is a good chance you have removed that fun from the game. If debt occurs too often myself and many others will not be participating in PvP (maybe arena, but definately not zones).
Suggestion: Poll your players before you continue to make these type's of decisions. We pay for your product because we enjoy it. We can tell you what we may enjoy and what may upset us before it is implemented. Do not take the SWG route of doom. Please.
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Bad decision Dev's. To many people try to use NPC's to soften up there targets via TP foe or just by choosing fights where NPC interferance is more likely to occur. Part of the fun with PvP was that I could go and have fun fighting others (in a much more fatal environment BTW) and not fear debt. There is a good chance you have removed that fun from the game. If debt occurs too often myself and many others will not be participating in PvP (maybe arena, but definately not zones).
Suggestion: Poll your players before you continue to make these type's of decisions. We pay for your product because we enjoy it. We can tell you what we may enjoy and what may upset us before it is implemented. Do not take the SWG route of doom. Please.
[/ QUOTE ]XP and debt gain should be done away with in PvP zones, there is a growing number of players latley taking advantage of NPCs to draw the opposing player to and cause them to take debt. The AOE toggle infection from dark miasma or radiation agros a bunch of NPCs and the caster takes damage then the player finishes them off for rep while the caster gains double debt. I know alot of players getting level 20-22 and wanting to try out their build in PvP by going to SC only to gain alot more debt than they usually would in a single mission.
Not a very nice change for PvP.
And yes do not go the SWG route, I have been a part of SWG for three years and it got UGLY.
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I just re-read my post, and the way I put it sounds different from what I meant. I believe there should be door missions in PvP zones, just the missions and the mobs in the mission should not give XP, influence/infamy, prestige or debt.
It would seem that the only reason why someone would do a door mission in a PvP zone would be to buff/debuff the sides. And if they are going to go through that much trouble to complete the mission just for the buff/debuff, they will be more incluned to stay and PvP afterwards.
Don't know if anyone took what I said in the other post the wrong way, but just wanted to0 clarify what I meant.
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People do the mission in a PVP zone for badges, and because normally those mission grant higher levels of XP then you can get from doing normal missions. I seriously doubt anyone runs mission after mission just to debuff the sides. Or not alot. I know when leveling my characters i was getting much better xp gain on my MM running the SC doors then i was in the normal PVE zones. Both Longbow and the bonus seemed to be higher.
Right now were in a weird situation. Villians are going to be lower level for the most part then heroes for a while. A level 45 trying to hit 50 that caps there debt in a PVP zone is unlikely to come back for some time, or atleast until the hit 50. The lower PVP zones will remain mostly a playground for level 50s to gank easily on characters will less power enhament then themselves. Basicly having players fighting players with incidental debt accruing is to me a bad idea for people that might want to casually PVP during the progression of leveling there characters. So i say do away with all of it. Accept door missions. If you do the missions you get your XP and the possiblility of debt, fighting in the zone nothing either way.
Seems the easiest solution to me. Allow PVP to be just that PVP. Not a way to level or slow the leveling of characters. Otherwise your looking at several months before there is going to be a widely diverse group of level 50 villians willing to not care about debt.
Alright, so what I am gathering is that ppl are mad because if they are fighting npcs and a pc comes and finishes the job, they are mad because they get debt?!
Really ppl, The pc didn't do much so it makes sense to give you at least some debt. Definately a change for the good.
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Further testing on my end indicates that there's a "timer" of some kind on the debt. Seems to be 60 seconds or 2 minutes. After that, no debt.
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That's just staggeringly bad.
In under 60 seconds: Fight a mob. Get whittled down to 2% health. Defeat the mob. Heal yourself back up to 99% health. Get one-shotted by a stalker. Get 98% of the FULL DEBT for an OUTDOOR DEFEAT.
By what demented standard is this acceptable?
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Where this system is a 'benefit' is in the flip side to your scenario. Say you're hovering over a fight and some stalker ASes you and stuns you. You land in a pack of Hewer Elites who proceed to split your head in two. Old system, full debt. New system, 5% debt.
Now, which of the two scenarios is more likely to occur? Well I guess that depends on what you're doing in the zone. In sirens you may very well be battling at hotspots and getting a lot of npc damage. Then some driveby corruptor scourges you. Bam, huge debt. Or you might be there for the pvp and the opposite happens. You get clobbered by some brute, run for your life, but get caught by some Tsoo boss. Bam, a sliver of debt.
I guess that's fair. But I do think healing should erase the debt equal in proportion to the damage sources (npc vs pc).
But like someone else said, it seems they could be spending their coding time elsewhere. Perhaps making the bounty system proportional across teams to minimize loses to KSing.
Please buff Ice Control.
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Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
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So how exeactly are you going to factor in damage healing? Is NPC damage going to be healed first? This is starting to look like a Credit Card payment agreement...
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* This means that you can no longer “escape debt” by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
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Hmm, lets see. last week a Stalker TPed me into a group of five or six spiders and together they smacked me down in about 3 seconds.
So if the player beat me before I got no debt but now I do?
/e sarcasm
Gee thanks Developers!
woot!
/e sarcam off
Very bad idea.
Oh well pvp was just a fun diversion for awhile. Since it is -way- to easy to get pve damage in a pvp zone I will just stay away till the Dev team wakes up.
Its been said before, PC vs PC and PC vs NPC health Bar status means different things.
I can be fighting mobs and be at half health, eh no big deal I can handle myself, I can continue fighting mobs and I know when to pull out and avoid debt.
Now Im fighting, at half health, still no big deal then all of a sudden I get gang banged by a lovely group of PvPers on the opposite side. Normally where I dont get debt Im looking at a lovely 50% that I should NEVER have gotten.
Before this change, either way, Id not have gotten debt, cause I wouldve either ran, or simply not gotten debt through a PC kill. Now because of the uncontrollability of the zone (Which I actually enjoy. a Little chaos doesnt hurt anyone) I am more likely to recieve debt for my casual PvP while fighting in the hotspots.
Wow how long did you take to think this one through? 
Other day I died to a blaster and got debt. I dont think debt should ever be 'rewarded' for getting killed for a fellow player. This is hella bugged. I got debt for a small, tiny fall. I mean it was just a knockback. I didnt even fall off a cliff or a building. I jst got knocked off my feet, literally.
Does Cryptic have testers???? This shoulda never made it live.
Needless to say I now have KB protection on my stalker.
edit- I keep thinking bout canceling my subscription. It just seems to get worse and worse. First it was announced Villains arent getting FA (which really messes up Brutes). Now, this.
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I have said for months that debt, XP, influence, and prestige should be taken away from PvP zones, as well as the missions in the zones. The emphasis of the zones should be PvP, but it has gotten away from that emphasis.
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So just go into a zone to fight other players and build up a Reputation score that does nothing. Wow, I could just see people running into the zones in droves!
Sorry, some people need more incentive than that.
DestineeFable's Guide to an MSTF run (fixed!)
My latest AE madness
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Alright, so what I am gathering is that ppl are mad because if they are fighting npcs and a pc comes and finishes the job, they are mad because they get debt?!
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No that doesn't anger me at all, I'm more annoyed that they can track this damage but they can't split out Bounty in SC so that a killstealer takes 100% of bounty after causing the last 5% damage on a PC my Defender has been dealing with for the last 2-3 minutes.
No, I just don't see a point to this 'improvement." If I want debt I'll stay in the PvE zones.
This whole risk/reward things comes up again. Before there was no debt, now we have a new risk of debt. Where is the new reward?
DestineeFable's Guide to an MSTF run (fixed!)
My latest AE madness
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Alright, so what I am gathering is that ppl are mad because if they are fighting npcs and a pc comes and finishes the job, they are mad because they get debt?!
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No that doesn't anger me at all, I'm more annoyed that they can track this damage but they can't split out Bounty in SC so that a killstealer takes 100% of bounty after causing the last 5% damage on a PC my Defender has been dealing with for the last 2-3 minutes.
No, I just don't see a point to this 'improvement." If I want debt I'll stay in the PvE zones.
This whole risk/reward things comes up again. Before there was no debt, now we have a new risk of debt. Where is the new reward?
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Well said, I just cant figure out why they waste time on making sweeping changes like this when there are other more pressing issues. It appears their goal is to make sure players get debt so it will take us longer to lvl and we keep paying. Little do they realize the grass is greener on the other side. There are many games that dont penalize players for every single mistake they make.
Teikiatsu QFT man.
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I'm more annoyed that they can track this damage but they can't split out Bounty in SC so that a killstealer takes 100% of bounty after causing the last 5% damage on a PC my Defender has been dealing with for the last 2-3 minutes
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Boy, So many times this was suggested after CoV came out, and Sirens Call began to fill. I cant believe it was possible all this time, and instead of perfecting the bounty system, they increase the amount of debt gained in PvP zones. One of the main reasons people have told me they stay away from PvP despite being interested in trying it out.
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This whole risk/reward things comes up again. Before there was no debt, now we have a new risk of debt. Where is the new reward?
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The best part is the per kill bonus and mission bonuses for being in a PvP zone were reduced awhile back (I believe this is true, but if someone has info to the contrary please correct me). So we have increased debt and decreased reward. Also decreased traffic to the zones. A loose, loose, loose idea if Ive ever seen one.
It looks like the only Zone that might fill up is RV with all the 50's that are coming out fo the wood works. Since after 50 there is nothing left except (infamy,inlfuence), xp, and prestige. And the rep i guess, but i haven't seen any real use for it, unless at a certain rep you could cash in for a Hamidon enhancement.
Siren's Call could see some 50's as well, as that's a way to get some L53 SO's to fill out the areas that don't have HO's.
Of course, that's assuming there are enough bounties.
DestineeFable's Guide to an MSTF run (fixed!)
My latest AE madness
This decision is one of many that have contributed to the declining subscription numbers in CoH/V I'm sure...that an the 8 month wait for a horridly buggy villain issue 1...
spend less time trying to figure the totally unwanted Ageia out and more time fixing content bugs and listening to the playerbase might serve them well.
My suggestion was not to eliminate debt, but to have a debt protection status effect.
Any time you are effected by a player power you are debt protected for thirty seconds. This effect renews itself each time there is an enemy player power applied to you. If you wait for thirty seconds without being attacked by a player character, the effect wears off, and if an NPC mob attacks and kills you, then you get debt. But if they attack and kill you while the Player Character is still debuffing/attacking/holding etc. then you are protected from debt.
They can eliminate debt for player vs. player so the coding can recognize when a player vs. a NPC is attacking you.
This will make it so people don't farm NPCs without any risk while still preventing people from the "Oh sh#t that Longbow/Tarantula got in the last shot and now I have debt" problem.
I actually like this idea. It does seem that there is a very small minority of people who will purposefully try to give you debt. I only use Warburg and BB for nukes and Shivans to use in PvE but it seems that lately there have been a lot of gimps (typically stalker) who broadcast "lol pvp zon del with itz lol" when they attack me near NPCs. Ugh. They won't expect any favors from me; I slap them on ignore afterwards. I don't have dealings with dongs.
PvP is just a chance to be obnoxious in this game, but aiming to give someone debt to give you a "reward" for pvp'ing them isn't only obnoxious: it's griefing.
That was exactly my thought, I came up with the idea after reading a post by someone saying that using TP Foe to teleport villains into mobs with the purpose of getting them debt was their strategy and that's how they chose to play PVP. And their defense was that they paid 15$ a month and should be able to do what they want.
Well I think it would be great if I could go into a pvp zone without a max level character but at this point in time the risk for me is too high because I like to fight at the hot spots and its really REALLY fun if there are villains there fighting back too (player characters that is) but when a stalker does AS for all but 40 points of my health, and then a tarantula does 100 points of damage and gets in the kill shot... $%&# now I have debt.
30 second PVP Debt Protection ftw!
In an attempt to make this logically clear;
THIS IS PVP. PEOPLE COME TO THESE ZONES FOR PVP. THEY DO NOT COME TO THE ZONES FOR PVE. SEPERATE THE TWO AND STOP DICKING AROUND AS YOU TINKER TO AND FRO IN YOUR SEARCH FOR THE ULTIMATE ALOGRITYHM OF THEORETICAL BALANCE.
Good lord. It's not very hard to figure it out. Don't have a PvP zone negatively impact the PvE part of the game. Throw out the XP factor.
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Quadruple the debt cap. Then, Only those who really enjoy pvp would play and those concerned with pve debt and playing nice would stay in their safe zones.
Why is it ok to get debt in pve but folks freak out if it is in pvp? That thought process is completely backwards to me.
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I have a stalker and frankly always got the "P*ssy hiding stalker come out and fight fair" in sirens when i was take someone out, and they didnt get debt for it. Now im gonna get even worse because they might be carring damage from a NPC when i do it.
Not to mention there WILL be those stalkers and so forth that can lie in wait around say a pillbox and AS you when your down to like a quarter health. Debt aside its a perfectly legit tactic to use on say a tanker or a regen scrapper that you might not be able to 1 shot AS, accept now they get debt for it. I mean truely was anyone really hanging out with there heroes playing a villian and having there hero buddy take them out when they got close to death? I guess i just dont get the need for the change. I personally think the all or nothing on who gets the kill, player or NPC, was acceptable.