[ QUOTE ]
Farming that one mission instead of going into the PvP zone seems like a fair trade-off, especially if you compare it to the hellish kind of badges heroes need to get such as Illusionist or Banisher.
[/ QUOTE ]
And before you go "But Taser, we shouldn't have to farm a single mission for a badge for an accolade," I must retort with the fact that people have been farming the all Paragon Protector mission and the last mission in the Wheel of Destruction arc since issue 2 to get those badges.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
I won't explain what has been explained at lease 1000 times throughout these forums re badges in PvP, NPC debt, fair/unfair practices blah blah blah ...I simply say again.
PvP
=
PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER
You dont' NEED all the badges in the game, some are optional or gained through happenstance, as far as I know, the ones gained in PvP are optional or happenstance. (I KNOW I'll be corrected on this! lol) Therefore, having the knowledge that PvP may get you slaughtered (and you've been fore-warned prior to entry to enter at your own risk!) entering simply to gain a badge is -
UP
TO
YOU.
PvP. Player versus Player. No rules, not necessary to go in should you choose not to, and you're warned before hand of the dangers.
I say again, don't like the rules re PvP, don't "enter at your own risk". Don't risk. Stay safe in the world outside it. It's your choice. CHOICE.
Sheesh.. 
Justice
Everwood
Triumph
The Trust
[ QUOTE ]
...But you know what they say about assuming.
[/ QUOTE ]
It makes an 'a**' out of 'u' and 'ming'?
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I took only "falling" damage and still got debt. So I think ANY outside damage will produce debt.
There goes Fly is a travel power in PvP.
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Hey yet another reason to take fly
1. Slower than any other travel power for the slotting required
2. More endurance intensive
3. Over a dozen powers with -fly effects
4. Can get you debt in pvp now...
yay...
Why do we even have fly again? Lets just all make super jumpers and bounce around the city..../sarcasm off.
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Of course, that ignores the fact that it's still easier to get around with Fly then it is with Superjump, and trying to fight flyers as a Melee fighter with Superjump.
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490 / 990 = .4949... or about 49% debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good point: but what if you were taken down to 2% several times over the course of the fight? It seems that ALL the NPC damage you take is 'remembered' for the purposes of assigning proportional debt. For a low HP class like a Dom, it would be possible to have a record of three or four times your total HP in NPC damage. Bang, a player kills you, the debt is way off the scale.
Yay. I just discovered a new reason why Doms suck in PvP.
Well there went my pvp fun, just when it was gettin good too. Oh well guess it's back to all pve again. Thankyou.
IDEA:
1. Remove *ALL* XP gains from PVP zones. All debt incurred in PVP zones nullifies gains of PVP zone prestige or inf until it's cleared naturally. BUT! PVP zone debt does not apply vs. regular XP gains. All debt gained in PVP zones automatically "erases" at a rate of 1/60th of the debt cap per minute of game play. That way, even if you get max debt in the PVP zone, an hour later it's gone. Debt thus in PVP zones will only function to penalize defeats via inhibiting the gains of prestige/inf. PVP zone debt can still be "paid off" normally via defeating critters or completeing missions, etc., to speed up the recovery.
By this model, no matter how bad you get trashed in the PVP zone, all effects will be gone in under one hour (1/60th = 60 minutes of game time). The "countdown" would not apply to debt gained outside the PVP zone.
ANCILLARY IDEAS TO GET PEOPLE INTO PVP ZONES:
2. "Regular" traditional debt is paid off at 1.5x or 2.0x the normal rate vs. critters in PVP zones. Massively in debt characters may go into PVP zones thus to pay off their normal debt by "helping the cause". This could be very popular.
3. Increase influence/infamy for critter defeats in open PVP zones. A straight doubling. A kill worth 250 inf in a PVE zone now nets you 500 inf in the PVP zone. Not a doubling of Prestige however. Due to how cash strapped many players can be now due to the Prestige system, this can encourage players to spend time in PVP zones for personal (non-SG/VG) gains. The risk-reward balance on this reflects the risk from other Players taking you out while doing these hunts. The more players that come into PVP zones for this benefit will increase the risk of Player kills exponentially. If used in conjunction with #1 and #2, we could get many more players into PVP zones for personal gain. In turn, it populates up the PVP zones, and increases the fun of the PVP 'games', in control of Recluse's Victory and Siren's Call especially.
Notes:
#1: Will restructure PVP to be more of a game. Sub-50th players often seem to avoid it to avoid perception of debt/griefing. Now, death there is long-term irrelevant (especially from a PVE perspective).
#2: Who doesn't hate debt? This will get people into PVP zones to pay it off faster.
#3: Who doesn't know a hard luck villain with financial problems? For that matter, with Prestige, many heroes are now more hard luck financially. #3 will get people to want to enter PVP zones for the financial benefits. The longer you stay *in* the PVP zone fighting it out, the more money and influence and infamy you stand to gain--even moreso than in PVE zones, and rightly so. Heroes and villains would gain more reputation/street cred from slugging it out with their equals, not loser gangs or common thieves. Anyone can fight Hellions, or Tsoo, or Goldbrickers. Not everyone can fight people that hang out with Scirocco or Synapse.
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You dont' NEED all the badges in the game
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For the most part, I agree. Nobody 'needs' the badges in a PvP zone.
But consider this. The Megalomaniac accolade, which grants a special power, is the equivalent of the heroes' Vanguard. Positron said that the villain accolades were being made very similar to the heroes' for the sake of fairness. However, the hero version of Vanguard doesn't require mobs from a PvP zone. The villain version does.
You tell me how it's fair or balanced for villains to HAVE to go to a PvP zone in order to get a power equivalent to that which a hero can get from PvE alone.
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
O...M...G!!!
With all the things this game has wrong with it right now, they worry about this?? I mean seriously, how often did anyone ever intentionally get killed by a PC in order to avoid debt caused by an NPC in a PVP zone? Is this really that prevalent of an issue?
Where's the "pulling my hair out" smiley.
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I fail to see how it is a 'bad idea'. You may not like it, but that really doesn't make it bad - especially since you go into no details.
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It's a 'bad idea' because it introduces debt where, to many of our experiences, there was none before. In other words it punishes those of us who spend most of our time in PvE for even bothering to PvP. You will take mob-sourced damage in PvP zones like Siren's Call and RV, and you will be defeated.
I have a problem with changes that are bad in principle. It doesn't matter to me that the debt may be "small". The debt should not be there when it's a PvP defeat. Plain and simple.
I point (again) at the fact that the rewards for PvP are not proportional. I can spend 5 minutes beating a Tanker down to a sliver and someone else can come along, deal the death blow, and get the full reputation (and in SC, bounty).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
You tell me how it's fair or balanced for villains to HAVE to go to a PvP zone in order to get a power equivalent to that which a hero can get from PvE alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Villains can farm that mission in Diable that's nothing BUT Shivans for the badge. And they can do that as early as level 15 if they wanted to.
Compared to heroes having to farm 1000 monkeys to get their Vanguard.
Uh, I think I'll stick with Megalomaniac. I got it at level 40, compared to the waaaay past level 50 I was able to get Vanguard on my hero.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
O...M...G!!!
With all the things this game has wrong with it right now, they worry about this?? I mean seriously, how often did anyone ever intentionally get killed by a PC in order to avoid debt caused by an NPC in a PVP zone? Is this really that prevalent of an issue?
Where's the "pulling my hair out" smiley.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't count how many times I've been fighting in a PvP zone against another player only to have an NPC get the kill shot and the kill shot only, resulting in full debt, even if I was damaged 99.9% by a PC.
A lot of people are overreacting to this right now.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
I too would like to know how healing compares.
And while we're at it could I get that 16k debt removed that I got from fighting PCs?
That's full mission debt for me and I got it from a PC killing me.
I was in villain territory as a villain surrounded by only villain mobs...
It's possible a neutral turret could have MAYBE hit me for 10% damage give or take a %...and I get full mission debt from that...
Also... not to be a jerk... but couldn't they have addressed some of the bigger bugs before going after this? Masterminds, broken badges, the Boss Knockback bug?
It's appreciated, but priorities seem wildy backwards. Some of the bugs I mentioned have been going for some time and the last we heard on some is they're waiting to clear QA.
And not to sound paranoid, but the first bug in some time that *might* have had the equivalent of a postive gain for players, rather than negative--storage bins--results in pulling the servers for an emergency patch and update yesterday?
[ QUOTE ]
PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER
You dont' NEED all the badges in the game, some are optional or gained through happenstance, as far as I know, the ones gained in PvP are optional or happenstance. (I KNOW I'll be corrected on this! lol)
[/ QUOTE ]
For villains, PvP badges are less optional then they are for heroes. Several villain accolades require badges that can only be gained in PvP zones. True, the accolades aren't required to play the game, but some of them do provide significant benefits. Also, it seems a bit unfair for villains considering that heroes can get the same thing without PvP badges.
[ QUOTE ]
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You tell me how it's fair or balanced for villains to HAVE to go to a PvP zone in order to get a power equivalent to that which a hero can get from PvE alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Villains can farm that mission in Diable that's nothing BUT Shivans for the badge. And they can do that as early as level 15 if they wanted to.
Compared to heroes having to farm 1000 monkeys to get their Vanguard.
Uh, I think I'll stick with Megalomaniac. I got it at level 40, compared to the waaaay past level 50 I was able to get Vanguard on my hero.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, to be fair, the monkey badge is easy now with the lower limit, by hunting a few hours with a full team in Crey's Folly.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...But you know what they say about assuming.
[/ QUOTE ]
It makes an 'a**' out of 'u' and 'ming'?
[/ QUOTE ]
LMAO *wipes tear*
Didn't know Flash played...
Kenja's Logitec G15 Masters Guide
Kenja's Concise Commands and Emotes Guide (I10)
Kenja's Links Guide for Badge Collectors
Visit SalsaVille!
[ QUOTE ]
IDEA:
1. Remove *ALL* XP gains from PVP zones. All debt incurred in PVP zones nullifies gains of PVP zone prestige or inf until it's cleared naturally....
[/ QUOTE ]
This is so constructive it's awing.
Were PvP going to change, your suggestions would make a great and likely a very busy PvP enviro. Sweet.
I agree re the debt burn off, however, doubling the rewards could be risky. Would anyone even bother to play PvE anymore? lol. Sorry.. I'm still lost at the problem with playing in an "at your own risk area".... your ideas are fantastic though.
Until the changes though....
Enter At Your Own Risk.
And as a side note: with all the kvetching about the I7 bugs, can you even begin to imagine the whining and crying about the bugs that would happen if your changes were actually implemented? lol! Whhheeeee!! 
Justice
Everwood
Triumph
The Trust
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER
You dont' NEED all the badges in the game, some are optional or gained through happenstance, as far as I know, the ones gained in PvP are optional or happenstance. (I KNOW I'll be corrected on this! lol)
[/ QUOTE ]
For villains, PvP badges are less optional then they are for heroes. Several villain accolades require badges that can only be gained in PvP zones. True, the accolades aren't required to play the game, but some of them do provide significant benefits. Also, it seems a bit unfair for villains considering that heroes can get the same thing without PvP badges.
[/ QUOTE ]
/seconded, /thirded, whatever we're up to. We were told that Accolades would be "equivalent" on both sides, and also that PVP would never be a requirement to advance in the game. Players SHOULD be able to do things like this on both sides--hero/villain--without *having* to touch a PVP zone if they don't want to.
They need to move all accolade requirements out of PVP zones or else move the hero side going forward, ASAP, to be matching in a PVP zone.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, to be fair, the monkey badge is easy now with the lower limit, by hunting a few hours with a full team in Crey's Folly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Still, Crey's Folley is a hazard zone and, if you go in and try to get it at the assigned level, you will get debt just like in PvP.
So the question becomes is it unfair to villains that they have to get a badge that can be easily obtained by a level 15 villain simply by farming a mission with a team of 8 with only 1 reset at most as compared to heroes needing to kill 1000 monkeys in a hazard zone that they can't enter until level 30+?
If anything, I think this badge is out of balance for heroes. Killing 1000 monkeys is not fun and can easily take you all day. Doing one mission twice to get Man in Black is a walk in the park and you get the accolade by level 40.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IDEA:
1. Remove *ALL* XP gains from PVP zones. All debt incurred in PVP zones nullifies gains of PVP zone prestige or inf until it's cleared naturally....
[/ QUOTE ]
This is so constructive it's awing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh, thanks.
[ QUOTE ]
Were PvP going to change, your suggestions would make a great and likely a very busy PvP enviro. Sweet.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I was thinking. Those three changes came in, I'd have my high level guys in PVP a *LOT* more instead of just basically farting in there "before dinner" or something like I do now.
[ QUOTE ]
I agree re the debt burn off, however, doubling the rewards could be risky. Would anyone even bother to play PvE anymore? lol. Sorry.. I'm still lost at the problem with playing in an "at your own risk area".... your ideas are fantastic though.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks again. And yeah, people would still have to PVE to advance in the game. You can't level off of Infamy or Influence.
I suspect you'd also see a lot more Level 23, 28, 33, 43rd, etc. level people doing PVP, to hoard money for Enhancement upgrades, if such a change went through someday.
[ QUOTE ]
And as a side note: with all the kvetching about the I7 bugs, can you even begin to imagine the whining and crying about the bugs that would happen if your changes were actually implemented? lol! Whhheeeee!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Eh. Bugs happen, fact of life. It's just the implied priority on many of them, for fixes, that leaves us scratching our heads...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, to be fair, the monkey badge is easy now with the lower limit, by hunting a few hours with a full team in Crey's Folly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Still, Crey's Folley is a hazard zone and, if you go in and try to get it at the assigned level, you will get debt just like in PvP.
So the question becomes is it unfair to villains that they have to get a badge that can be easily obtained by a level 15 villain simply by farming a mission with a team of 8 with only 1 reset at most as compared to heroes needing to kill 1000 monkeys in a hazard zone that they can't enter until level 30+?
If anything, I think this badge is out of balance for heroes. Killing 1000 monkeys is not fun and can easily take you all day. Doing one mission twice to get Man in Black is a walk in the park and you get the accolade by level 40.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're right, actually. That *is* imbalanced.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You tell me how it's fair or balanced for villains to HAVE to go to a PvP zone in order to get a power equivalent to that which a hero can get from PvE alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Villains can farm that mission in Diable that's nothing BUT Shivans for the badge. And they can do that as early as level 15 if they wanted to.
Compared to heroes having to farm 1000 monkeys to get their Vanguard.
Uh, I think I'll stick with Megalomaniac. I got it at level 40, compared to the waaaay past level 50 I was able to get Vanguard on my hero.
[/ QUOTE ]
And for those of us who don't believe in farming, since we know darn well it goes against dev intent? I do missions for the mission bonus and content, farming is a waste of time and only fun once or twice tops.
And not everyone gets that mission. On 6+ alts that have been through that level range, only one of them stumbled on that mission.
Granted, I don't give a hoot about badges, but for those that do and have some sense of ethics...
CURRENT MAINS: Akero (V) | Polly Spark (V) | Project MALWARE (V) | Barium Bunny (VIP)
ACTIVE INCARNATES: Polly's Revenge (V) | Stygian Kitten (V) | Archon Abrasax (V) | Alpha Antares (V)
Felines | Wolves | Avians | Bovines | Griffons | Centaurs | Insects | Robots
What, you really think HUMANS are going to save the world? LOL!
I feel that I must now start playing Villains much, much more than I do. *heavy sigh*
Me "I'm eating dinner in the computer room for the next week's holidays hon."
Hon "Uh huh." *staring in disbelief*
Me "No really, I have to be able to argue in the CoX forums better and I don't play CoV enough"
Hon "Uh huh" *eyes widening, mouth slowly pursing tighter*
Me "You don't understand I real " *WHACK*
Hon "Cast Iron, not just for frying an egg...
Thanks..... CoV here I come.. Any suggestions for playing in the new PvP areas? *ducks another cast iron frypan*
Justice
Everwood
Triumph
The Trust
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Further testing on my end indicates that there's a "timer" of some kind on the debt. Seems to be 60 seconds or 2 minutes. After that, no debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's just staggeringly bad.
In under 60 seconds: Fight a mob. Get whittled down to 2% health. Defeat the mob. Heal yourself back up to 99% health. Get one-shotted by a stalker. Get 98% of the FULL DEBT for an OUTDOOR DEFEAT.
By what demented standard is this acceptable?
[/ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it be 49% debt?
Let's say you had 500 hit points. NPC wounds you to 10 hit point (490 NPC damage). You heal, or are healed back up to 495 hit points in less than 60 seconds (or whatever the cutoff is). Stalker AS's you for 500 hit points (500 PC damage). So you've taken a total of 490 NPC and 500 PC damage within the deadline before defeat. So the proportion would be (NPC damage) / (Total Damage) or
490 / 990 = .4949... or about 49% debt.
Granted, I don't agree this change is completely fair. IMO it would be "fairer" to "flag" damage from individual sources and remove damage from a defeated source from your count:
Example (you still have 500 hp): You fight two Hellions. Each injures you for 200 hp of damage. You defeat one but not the other. You pop greens and get back up to 500 hp. Stalker AS's you. Your "damage tracker" looks like this:
200 NPC damage from Hellion A (doesn't count, Hellion was defeated)
200 NPC damage from Hellion B (counts, Hellion wasn't defeated)
500 PC damage
Total NPC damage (that counts): 200
Total damage: 700.
Debt: 200 / 700 = .286 or ~29%. (The damage from the defeated Hellion doesn't count)
That'd be more fair and balanced, but that's just my opinion. But seems like it'd be a lot more complex to code.
That said, I'd rather there be no debt at all in PVP zones, just like many others. The mere possibility of debt is the main reason I don't enter those zones except once in a blue moon. Sure there's the possibility of debt in other zones, but PVP zones are roamed by toons that are not only willing to do things to give me debt, but are a LOT more likely to actually pull it off than the threats in another zone.
M.A. Arcs
Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice!
Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)