[ QUOTE ]
I took only "falling" damage and still got debt. So I think ANY outside damage will produce debt.
There goes Fly is a travel power in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
... Ok, now that's just wrong.
Further testing on my end indicates that there's a "timer" of some kind on the debt. Seems to be 60 seconds or 2 minutes. After that, no debt.
---------------------------------
Heartbroken
I lurked a lot but I'll miss you allAlpha Team sg, Pinnacle server
Black Citadel vg
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are people actually spending development time on this, or is this an accident? Because if this is intentional, I really don't know what the hell to think.
Reward from defeating people in PvP is completely unproportional (q.v. the oort cloud of Stalkers near any fight waiting for the death blow and the full reputation reward), but someone is out there making sure that the penalty is "proportional"?
I know with zero doubt that the "proportion" systems do not work the way intuitive reading of the "rules" implies. I if I can deal raw damage equal to 10% of a GM's HP by myself, I get the reward for that 10% - even if my 10% damage was dealt so slowly that it doesn't move their HP bar. If this debt system works the same way, it's total garbage.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is there Debt in PvP zones at all?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the offcial ruling is because there are NPCs who give XP in the PvP zones, so you need debt to balance the risk Vs. reward equation.
As to why there are NPCs in the PvP zones who give XP, I think the offical reason is to give people who don't particularly want to PvP a reason to go into the PvP zones, so PvP people have more people to fight.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ugh, was that really happening? So if Statesman runs up and knocks me down to 1hp and then a player hits me .367 milliseconds later I get almost full debt? How is healing calculated into this? Regen?
Need more info here...
[/ QUOTE ]
NOTE: The Signature Heroes/Villains in Recluse's Victory are meant to no longer give debt, any debt they're giving now is bugged and will be fixed.
[ QUOTE ]
I took only "falling" damage and still got debt. So I think ANY outside damage will produce debt.
There goes Fly is a travel power in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why, that's the least fun thing I've heard all year.
I became a less fun person by just reading that, so un-fun was it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is there Debt in PvP zones at all?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the offcial ruling is because there are NPCs who give XP in the PvP zones, so you need debt to balance the risk Vs. reward equation.
As to why there are NPCs in the PvP zones who give XP, I think the offical reason is to give people who don't particularly want to PvP a reason to go into the PvP zones, so PvP people have more people to fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pretty much, yeah.
If they removed the ability to gain debt from NPC's in PvP zones, then they would have to remove the experience you get from whacking the NPC's. On the other hand, the only reason some people actually GO into the PvP zones is because you are supposed to get more experience from NPC's in the zone then NPC's hanging out in regular zones.
[ QUOTE ]
Don't like the way PvP in CoH is set up? Don't come in.
Don't want the debt? Don't come in.
Don't think you should be targetted without some sort of rules to meet your maker? Don't come in.
Don't understand basic concepts? Don't come in.
Can't read the WARNING at the entrance or understand the WARNING given by the Security Office? Don't come in. Or if you do, don't come on here cryin' about "unfairness" or "unsportmanship playing" or "TPing you into a mess of NPC's is nasty". You got busted up, annihilated, a** whacked bright blood orange red... suck it up, write down the nasty buggers name who did it to you, go lvl up some, then challenge that player to a one-on-one. Jeesh...
[/ QUOTE ]
If no one goes in then they stop coding PvP content because every stops using it.
They need to make PvP more appealing for people, not less appealing. Half the time the PvP zones are ghost towns. Please, make some changes that encourage and reward players for taking the time to play and explore those zones, don't make changes that drive the casual player away.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I took only "falling" damage and still got debt. So I think ANY outside damage will produce debt.
There goes Fly is a travel power in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
... Ok, now that's just wrong.
Further testing on my end indicates that there's a "timer" of some kind on the debt. Seems to be 60 seconds or 2 minutes. After that, no debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
At the very least, there's some kind of limit.
I fought a pillbox and took "significant" damage.
After resting up, I asked a "friendly" villain to kill me.
No debt.
I don't know if it's because of a timer or because regeneration "resets" the counter.
Either way, there's no need for anyone to worry about getting debt for PvE fights that happened "a long time ago".
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I took only "falling" damage and still got debt. So I think ANY outside damage will produce debt.
There goes Fly is a travel power in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why, that's the least fun thing I've heard all year.
I became a less fun person by just reading that, so un-fun was it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd assume that's a bug, or unintended.
...But you know what they say about assuming.
[ QUOTE ]
Further testing on my end indicates that there's a "timer" of some kind on the debt. Seems to be 60 seconds or 2 minutes. After that, no debt.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's just staggeringly bad.
In under 60 seconds: Fight a mob. Get whittled down to 2% health. Defeat the mob. Heal yourself back up to 99% health. Get one-shotted by a stalker. Get 98% of the FULL DEBT for an OUTDOOR DEFEAT.
By what demented standard is this acceptable?
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I took only "falling" damage and still got debt. So I think ANY outside damage will produce debt.
There goes Fly is a travel power in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
I must say that this is a bad change. I get shot by NPCs all of the time in PvP while trying to fight players (heaven forbid). This is just more incentive to stay out of PvP zones, at least until I am level 50. I will undoubtedly get tons more debt now, just from the annoying NPCs whom I wish were not in the f'n zone in the first place.
I'm certainly not going to waste time on pillboxes now. In fact, I am almost completely fed up with PvP at this point with all the negatives associated with it, particularly for villains.
The developers should try to be making pvp more casual friendly. Instead all they are doing is making it less fun unless you are a level 50 scrapper/troller.
Boo. Hiss. 
To all you people being upset: you DO know this is an improvement over the original system, right? Were you not aware that a single point of NPC damage meant debt when a player took away the rest of your health?
Not that it's going to be enough to get me in there, but it's a good start. I'm still of the opinion that they should just cancel out all XP gain and debt in the PvP zones; the zone rewards are the real reason people go in there anyway.
Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what you people are using to profile this, but I have never seen a person impale themselves on a PC to "escape" debt.
I've seen people train mobs onto someone to "cause" debt, but never the other way around.
[ QUOTE ]
To all you people being upset: you DO know this is an improvement over the original system, right? Were you not aware that a single point of NPC damage meant debt when a player took away the rest of your health?
[/ QUOTE ]
No it didn't.
That was a myth or a bug. Being killed by a player never got you debt, ever. That's why Cuppa mentions being 'saved from debt' by a player blow at the last moment after you'd been fighting NPCs. I have been saved from debt in that manner several times, though the attacker obviously didn't know that they were saving me.
This is a bad, bad change.
[ QUOTE ]
I took only "falling" damage and still got debt. So I think ANY outside damage will produce debt.
There goes Fly is a travel power in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey yet another reason to take fly
1. Slower than any other travel power for the slotting required
2. More endurance intensive
3. Over a dozen powers with -fly effects
4. Can get you debt in pvp now...
yay...
Why do we even have fly again? Lets just all make super jumpers and bounce around the city..../sarcasm off.
@PlasmaStream
"Big Bada Boom(tm)!"
1295 Badges
http://GuardianForce.Guildportal.com - Virtue
Niska: Are you Familiar with the works of Shan Yu?
[ QUOTE ]
you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Don't like the way PvP in CoH is set up? Don't come in.
Don't want the debt? Don't come in.
Don't think you should be targetted without some sort of rules to meet your maker? Don't come in.
Don't understand basic concepts? Don't come in.
Can't read the WARNING at the entrance or understand the WARNING given by the Security Office? Don't come in. Or if you do, don't come on here cryin' about "unfairness" or "unsportmanship playing" or "TPing you into a mess of NPC's is nasty". You got busted up, annihilated, a** whacked bright blood orange red... suck it up, write down the nasty buggers name who did it to you, go lvl up some, then challenge that player to a one-on-one. Jeesh...
As a lvl 33 who got their butt kicked yesterday in pvp...to coin a phrase to that sob that totalled me "I'll be back." lol! He got his shortly after anyway. Sucka!! He'll get it from me soon too...
Really, all the whining about PvP attacks, what part of Player versus Player are those people missing??
PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER.
Hmmm... this concept seems pretty self explanatory and simple to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then how do you explain them putting badges in these pvp zones that people will want then? It is not fair to them in that instance. Personally I dont pvp as I see it as a big waste of time in which I could be leveling more alts. For me the only reason to go to those zones is for the badges.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
I can only speak for myself but this change will not encourage me to enter PvP zones.
I like having PvP split off from the regular game - it allows people to choose their preference and enjoy it without the other playstyle (be it PvE or PvP) affecting it. But the devs have created a rather odd mix of PvP and PvE in the "free fire" zones and I'm unconvinced that this change will improve matters. It may just isolate PvP even more.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To all you people being upset: you DO know this is an improvement over the original system, right? Were you not aware that a single point of NPC damage meant debt when a player took away the rest of your health?
[/ QUOTE ]
No it didn't.
That was a myth or a bug. Being killed by a player never got you debt, ever. That's why Cuppa mentions being 'saved from debt' by a player blow at the last moment after you'd been fighting NPCs. I have been saved from debt in that manner several times, though the attacker obviously didn't know that they were saving me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Correct. More than once I have been mezzed on Corruptors in Siren's Call and dropped out of the sky into mobs who proceeded to attack me. "Kind" opponents regularly would defeat me as quickly as they could. When they got the last blow I never got debt. Ever.
I accept that there may have been an intermittent bug where sometimes you did get debt in that scenario. However, it was not the norm.
Based on my experience, I believe this change is a steaming pile of dung.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Then how do you explain them putting badges in these pvp zones that people will want then? It is not fair to them in that instance. Personally I dont pvp as I see it as a big waste of time in which I could be leveling more alts. For me the only reason to go to those zones is for the badges.
[/ QUOTE ]
Being the badge hunter, anti pvp type I am. I will take this before someone who is anti badge and all pvp does.
This is Cuppa's, Posi's, Statesmans response:
You want all the content you have to pvp.
Deal with it.
and yes, I was told deal with it by one of them.
@PlasmaStream
"Big Bada Boom(tm)!"
1295 Badges
http://GuardianForce.Guildportal.com - Virtue
Niska: Are you Familiar with the works of Shan Yu?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I took only "falling" damage and still got debt. So I think ANY outside damage will produce debt.
There goes Fly is a travel power in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey yet another reason to take fly
1. Slower than any other travel power for the slotting required
2. More endurance intensive
3. Over a dozen powers with -fly effects
4. Can get you debt in pvp now...
yay...
Why do we even have fly again? Lets just all make super jumpers and bounce around the city..../sarcasm off.
[/ QUOTE ]
Better make sure all your SJ's land at the same level you left from or go higher. The change in elevation (going from high to low) will lead to falling debt as well.
PvP -- Give Me Super Speed or Give Me Debt.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then how do you explain them putting badges in these pvp zones that people will want then? It is not fair to them in that instance. Personally I dont pvp as I see it as a big waste of time in which I could be leveling more alts. For me the only reason to go to those zones is for the badges.
[/ QUOTE ]
Being the badge hunter, anti pvp type I am. I will take this before someone who is anti badge and all pvp does.
This is Cuppa's, Posi's, Statesmans response:
You want all the content you have to pvp.
Deal with it.
and yes, I was told deal with it by one of them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Especially since the Megalomaniacal Badge requires you to kill 100 Shivans (Men in Black/Woman in Black Badge). So much for not having to go into a PvP zone if you don't want to.
[ QUOTE ]
Especially since the Megalomaniacal Badge requires you to kill 100 Shivans (Men in Black/Woman in Black Badge). So much for not having to go into a PvP zone if you don't want to.
[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize there's a whole mission in the 15-20 range that spawns nothing BUT shivans in Diable, right?
Farming that one mission instead of going into the PvP zone seems like a fair trade-off, especially if you compare it to the hellish kind of badges heroes need to get such as Illusionist or Banisher.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
[ QUOTE ]
Why is there Debt in PvP zones at all?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't PvP but the Dev Digest entry for this thread caught my eye. I was under the impression that PvP zones were debt-free for some reason. In my mind it made sense. Of course it didn't occur to me to have NPCs running around causing trouble either. I simply avoided PvP for a host of other reasons that I won't sidetrack this thread with.
But knowing I'd get debt from NPCs, and it sounds like other players in the new RV zone, well, that's just another reason to stay out.
No offense to the "badge " (knowing full well that'll get censored...but it's a common phrase in the game) who think I should want a debt badge, but I consider part of the challenge is to avoid debt. I don't street sweep except to accelerate getting through the lower levels (the "hunt on the way to misions" thing). I play for the missions, the teams, the content. The street mobs are just random hazard that does occassionally kill me, but my outdoor debt is fairly rare.
But why would I want to mix random NPC debt with the debt from PCs, or just debt from PCs from them chasing me or placing me into NPCs to do their dirty work?
I really think PvP fosters the wrong mindset in players and developers, truly. This is supposed to be an escape from reality, not a reality mimicking reality, or in some case, being worse than reality.
2¢ bounces off the table...
CURRENT MAINS: Akero (V) | Polly Spark (V) | Project MALWARE (V) | Barium Bunny (VIP)
ACTIVE INCARNATES: Polly's Revenge (V) | Stygian Kitten (V) | Archon Abrasax (V) | Alpha Antares (V)
Felines | Wolves | Avians | Bovines | Griffons | Centaurs | Insects | Robots
What, you really think HUMANS are going to save the world? LOL!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just added this patch note to PvP section:
Being defeated in a PvP zone will carry debt if any of the damage to you was caused by NPCs. The amount of debt is directly proportional to the amount of damage you took from NPCs vs. how much was done by opposing Player Characters. The more damage dealt to you by NPCs means more debt when you are defeated.
* This means that you can no longer escape debt by being defeated by a PC after taking massive damage from NPCs, nor will you be penalized with a massive amount of debt if you are defeated by an NPC after taking a huge amount of damage from a PC.
[/ QUOTE ]
wow....not like there were a bunch of folks running to pvp zones as is. I know for one, that I won't be going back.
Bad idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
I fail to see how it is a 'bad idea'. You may not like it, but that really doesn't make it bad - especially since you go into no details.
I think it's a fine idea. Reduces the amount of debt you get for damage done to you by players. How can that be "bad"?
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
If it works the way I think it does you could spend the day fighting NPCs in RV and not die, accumulating lots of NPC damage, then get completely wiped out (from full) by PCs and based on percentage you'd be getting 99.9% of the debt for the NPCs.
I'm don't think that's quite what we want to have happen.