Patron Powers: Black Scorpion Mace Mastery
By
Akuma_Mishima,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 24:51 in Developers' Corner
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I'm getting confused by all these melee AT ranged attacks that need to be given the melee modifier. Obviously the ranged damage modifier isn't high enough for them, so what's the problem with increasing that?
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Because the ranged damage modifier is a fixed number across the whole AT - if they increased that then all ranged attacks that use the modifier would be boosted too, not just the lacklustre PPP attacks (i.e. it would make Spines Stalkers ridiculously overpowered).
So why can't they just increase the damage on the PPP attacks? Well again - that base number is actually the same across all the AT's that use it, so if they increased the base damage of the PPP ranged attacks then other ATs that use the same attack might get unintentionally buffed too.
I'm curious if Dominators are being considered a melee AT with regards to this - they certainly have a higher melee modifier than ranged (0.75 versus 0.65), and they could certainly do with a boost from the PPP attacks. If they are being sidelined then this is a severe kick in the teeth 
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Will Dominators use their melee or ranged modifier?
Melee mod would r0xxor!
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um, i think your melee mod is the same as your range mod, cause they are a 'Ranged AT' and dont suffer the handicap, the only classes that were being handicapped were stalkers and brutes, but they have now been brought into line with Scrappers and Tanks.
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Does this mean Stalkers with Build Up and crits can do much more damage with Moonbeam now? I forsee Stalker snipers hunting in pairs in RV.
Of course, it might be the *only* thing Stalkers can do in RV, but that's another story.
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Now they'll use the melee multiplier (1.0), so a medium ranged attack for a non ranged class will do 1.0x the damage of a melee medium damage attack.
In essence, damage from ranged patron power pool has so far been halved. This will no longer be the case.
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Not quite. So far they've been 2/3rds as powerful as they're going to be. They're getting a 50% damage boost, not 100%.
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Umm check your math... 2/3rds +50% = 3/3rds or 100%.
2/3 * 1.5 = 3/3
The reason behind it is 50% of 2/3rds is 1/3. So you have your original 2/3rds and are adding 1/3rd to it making it 3/3rds or 100% rather than what it was before.
On a side note... those ranged stalker crits are gonna hurt.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
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weird that they'd bother then
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Spines needs to have its ranged attacks run off the ranged scale. Impale is simply overpowered.
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Nerf Herd much?
any reason that after two years it suddenly needs to be nerfed ?
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Will Dominators use their melee or ranged modifier?
Melee mod would r0xxor!
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um, i think your melee mod is the same as your range mod, cause they are a 'Ranged AT' and dont suffer the handicap, the only classes that were being handicapped were stalkers and brutes, but they have now been brought into line with Scrappers and Tanks.
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Nope.
Dominator Melee: 75
Dominator Ranged: 65
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
---------------
Solo Space
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Now they'll use the melee multiplier (1.0), so a medium ranged attack for a non ranged class will do 1.0x the damage of a melee medium damage attack.
In essence, damage from ranged patron power pool has so far been halved. This will no longer be the case.
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Not quite. So far they've been 2/3rds as powerful as they're going to be. They're getting a 50% damage boost, not 100%.
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Umm check your math... 2/3rds +50% = 3/3rds or 100%.
2/3 * 1.5 = 3/3
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Umm - that's what he was saying. If something is 66% of something else, and gets a 50% damage boost, it becomes 100% of the other thing.
He was correcting the person he was replying to who had said that the ranged modifiers are half what the melee ones are (which would have meant a 100% boost to the ranged attacks rather than the 50% boost they are actually getting).
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Can someone translate this dev speak for me? What does this mean? Why would range attacks be considered melee damage?
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Castle:
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Specifically:
Melee AT's have a considerable lower Ranged Damage modifier than Melee Damage modifier. For Stalkers and Brutes, the Range modifier is 2/3 the melee modifier.
So, if a Melee attack rated at 'High' does 100 damage, a 'High damage Ranged attack could be expected to do 66 damage before slotting.
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Scrapper Slotting Basics
Brute Slotting Basics
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Because the ranged damage modifier is a fixed number across the whole AT - if they increased that then all ranged attacks that use the modifier would be boosted too, not just the lacklustre PPP attacks (i.e. it would make Spines Stalkers ridiculously overpowered).
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Spines Stalkers already use the melee multiplier for their ranged attack. Impale and the rest run off the 0.9, not the 0.5. After this change there will not be a single Stalker/Brute/Scrapper/Tanker attack that uses the ranged multiplier.
Ah, then I stand corrected 
If nothing actually uses the ranged (damage) modifiers in those AT's then it's a bit of a mystery why they bother having them different at all.
Stalker snipes are going to need to be toned down a little, methinks. If my math is right, a Stalker's Build-Up + crit snipe won't be as powerful as a Blaster's Aim + Buildup snipe, but it'll be awfully close. Suddenly, Stalker sniper squadrons are a thing to truly be feared; 8 of them could just about wipe a whole team, Tankers included.
Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball
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Ah, then I stand corrected
If nothing actually uses the ranged (damage) modifiers in those AT's then it's a bit of a mystery why they bother having them different at all.
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All entities in the game have a range and a melee damage scale property, including NPCs. Mostly, the range and melee damage scale attributes are irrelevant for PCs because they have access to only one class (the exeptions are for melee power pool attacks on ranged PC and Dominators). However, the range/melee damage scale attributes are very important on NPCs. For typical NPCs the melee damage scale is 66% higher than the ranged damage scale. This allows the developers to give NPCs both ranged and melee attacks while maintaining the "range as defense" game balance.
I am guessing that there is a second reason that is steeped in the early development history of the game. In very early beta players were allowed choose powers more smorgasboard style rather than picking from fixed sets. If I had to hazard a guess, when you created a character you picked "specialties" which controlled your modifiers for many aspects, including range vs. melee damage. So in the early development cycle, a Tank, a Scrapper and a Blaster could both take Knockout Blow, Temporary Invunlerability, and Fire Ball, however Knockout Blow would do the most damage for a Scrapper, Fire Ball would do the most damage for a Blaster, and TI would provide the most defense for a Tank. This system was scrapped apparently because it was too easily min/maxed and all min/maxers ended up with the same build. The ranged and melee damage scales survived for the same reason people still have an appendix: there is no significant gain in removing it and it might be useful again some day.
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The ranged and melee damage scales survived for the same reason people still have an appendix: there is no significant gain in removing it and it might be useful again some day.
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This is a great quote... almost sig worthy
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Follow Up:
Stalker Snipe PPPs are back to being Ranged damage. The changes I'd made to keep them balanced got nixed.
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Will Dominators use their melee or ranged modifier?
Melee mod would r0xxor!
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um, i think your melee mod is the same as your range mod, cause they are a 'Ranged AT' and dont suffer the handicap, the only classes that were being handicapped were stalkers and brutes, but they have now been brought into line with Scrappers and Tanks.
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Nope.
Dominator Melee: 75
Dominator Ranged: 65
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And Dominators are half a melee AT because in some secondaries, the only worthwhile attacks are the melee attacks. In fact I think the only secondary that has the luxury of having its best attacks at range is /Ice.
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Follow Up:
Stalker Snipe PPPs are back to being Ranged damage. The changes I'd made to keep them balanced got nixed.
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Rofl. Saw it coming. Well, at least the ranged attack is good. 
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Follow Up:
Stalker Snipe PPPs are back to being Ranged damage. The changes I'd made to keep them balanced got nixed.
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Someone want to do the math on this? How will the Snipe's damage compare to the normal ranged attack after this change? This just seems like a bad idea all around IMO...
For the record, _Castle_, I really HATE that you guys do this. I don't understand why you make exceptions where ranged powers use the melee modifier. Rather than confuse the issue by giving melee AT's a horribly low ranged modifier that they don't actually use, why not simply boost their ranged modifier up to make these attacks worth taking. All of this "special case" damage modifier stuff just leads to endless confusion among the players, and I can't imagine it makes things any easier for you guys either.
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Follow Up:
Stalker Snipe PPPs are back to being Ranged damage. The changes I'd made to keep them balanced got nixed.
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/e FREAKS OUT!
Ok. yea, that makes sense.
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Follow Up:
Stalker Snipe PPPs are back to being Ranged damage. The changes I'd made to keep them balanced got nixed.
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Yeah, im not surprised.
1. They shouldnt be stronger then Blaster snipes
2. Any buff to stalkers would bring a massive uproar in the PvP forums.
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Follow Up:
Stalker Snipe PPPs are back to being Ranged damage. The changes I'd made to keep them balanced got nixed.
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Why not just lower the dmg of snipe and keep it on the melee scale? that way in the description it won't say "high" when it's actualy the same as the med dmg range attack. It's understandable if it's too powerful but the if the dmg description for the power is based on base dmg without having the mod applied, that creates a lot of confusion as to what "med" or "high" really is.
I'm not blaming you _Castle_, but this goes into the whole 'why are Storm Controllers better at their Secondary than Storm Defenders are at their Primary?' issue. The closer you look at the system, the more arbitary it seems.
If it was decided tomorrow that Blaster nukes were too powerful, you could by this logic set them to use the .07 Blaster buff table. How is that supposed to make sense to anyone?
It's really impossible to make power choices in this game without relying on other people to tell you if a power is good or a stinker. The few times we *do* as players get numbers, they are utterly without context, and more or less useless without a basis for comparison. e.g. +66% accuracy means what to your chances to hit an SR scrapper at level 30? I know, but only because I have had someone else decyper the system for me.
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Follow Up:
Stalker Snipe PPPs are back to being Ranged damage. The changes I'd made to keep them balanced got nixed.
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This is fine; as long as the text represents the scale the other Stalker attacks follow. What I mean is if I pick a power that says Extreme out of my primary then any other power that says Extreme should do roughly the same damage. It should not say Extreme and only do medium damage comparitively.
To leave it that way is misleading and dare I say intentionally deceiving.
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FYI: Melee AT Patron Power Pool Ranged attacks which cause damage will be changed to using the Melee damage scale.
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Follow Up:
Stalker Snipe PPPs are back to being Ranged damage. The changes I'd made to keep them balanced got nixed.
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Don't worry, the patron powers are actually stronger than APPs to account for our inability to respec out of them
The Heroes are casting aside thier FOCUSED ACCURACY, PERSONAL FORCE FIELD, FORCE OF NATURE, in shame!
Baghdad Bob
oh noes our lv 41/44 snipes might have been nearly as good as a blaster's lvl 8 snipes, oh no! we only had to gain 33+ levels more to get it too!
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weird that they'd bother then
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That's what I was wondering. I don't get it either
I guess I should just assume they mean "Melee ATs are getting a damage buff to PPP ranged powers."
Then I can sleep at night.