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I know you're right. It's too bad that pvp is turning into the clone wars. Meaning its all storm controllers and blappers with superspeed vs. stalkers
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You forgot /regen Scrappers.
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Oddly I'm blown away by how fast I can peg the bar on my dominator. Meaning I can peg the bar. I have never pegged the bar on my brute. I have been toying with jumping into a mob, and having a bunch of greens just to see if I can, but I'm needing the infamy right now.
Yes I'm that cheap
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Brute "Fury" Bars are actually quite different from Dominator "Domination" bars...so that's not a very good comparison or annalysis..
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On my blaster I can get my Defiance bar to peg.
On my dominator I can get my Domination bar to peg.
On my brute I cannot get my fury bar to peg. (Granted I have not played with it as I am more interested in leveling, than learing the idiosyncries of the fury bar.)
From that stand point I see it as a valid comparison. I have a tool, that I can't use to its fullest potential. Should it not go all the way to the right?
Just Lucky that way...
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Oddly I'm blown away by how fast I can peg the bar on my dominator. Meaning I can peg the bar. I have never pegged the bar on my brute. I have been toying with jumping into a mob, and having a bunch of greens just to see if I can, but I'm needing the infamy right now.
Yes I'm that cheap
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Brute "Fury" Bars are actually quite different from Dominator "Domination" bars...so that's not a very good comparison or annalysis..
[/ QUOTE ]
On my blaster I can get my Defiance bar to peg.
On my dominator I can get my Domination bar to peg.
On my brute I cannot get my fury bar to peg. (Granted I have not played with it as I am more interested in leveling, than learing the idiosyncries of the fury bar.)
From that stand point I see it as a valid comparison. I have a tool, that I can't use to its fullest potential. Should it not go all the way to the right?
[/ QUOTE ]actually...on your blaster someone else gets your defiance bar to peg... 
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Oddly I'm blown away by how fast I can peg the bar on my dominator. Meaning I can peg the bar. I have never pegged the bar on my brute. I have been toying with jumping into a mob, and having a bunch of greens just to see if I can, but I'm needing the infamy right now.
Yes I'm that cheap
[/ QUOTE ]
Brute "Fury" Bars are actually quite different from Dominator "Domination" bars...so that's not a very good comparison or annalysis..
[/ QUOTE ]
On my blaster I can get my Defiance bar to peg.
On my dominator I can get my Domination bar to peg.
On my brute I cannot get my fury bar to peg. (Granted I have not played with it as I am more interested in leveling, than learing the idiosyncries of the fury bar.)
From that stand point I see it as a valid comparison. I have a tool, that I can't use to its fullest potential. Should it not go all the way to the right?
[/ QUOTE ]actually...on your blaster someone else gets your defiance bar to peg...
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Oddly I'm blown away by how fast I can peg the bar on my dominator. Meaning I can peg the bar. I have never pegged the bar on my brute. I have been toying with jumping into a mob, and having a bunch of greens just to see if I can, but I'm needing the infamy right now.
Yes I'm that cheap
[/ QUOTE ]
Brute "Fury" Bars are actually quite different from Dominator "Domination" bars...so that's not a very good comparison or annalysis..
[/ QUOTE ]
On my blaster I can get my Defiance bar to peg.
On my dominator I can get my Domination bar to peg.
On my brute I cannot get my fury bar to peg. (Granted I have not played with it as I am more interested in leveling, than learing the idiosyncries of the fury bar.)
From that stand point I see it as a valid comparison. I have a tool, that I can't use to its fullest potential. Should it not go all the way to the right?
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Well the thing you're missing is:
The brute bar is constantly moving, you have to fight constantly to keep it going.
I have NEVER seen 100 fury. Highest I've seen was 95 and that was when I was fighting over 15 enemies at once.
Domination bars stay where they are unless you die.
Defiance bars stay where they are unless you die or are healed.
Woooo I WIN! <-- A winnar is me!
Actually, on Blasters, someone else gets your bar moving TOWARDS pegging and kills you BEFORE it gets there.
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I know you're right. It's too bad that pvp is turning into the clone wars. Meaning its all storm controllers and blappers with superspeed vs. stalkers
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I actually saw an ice/eng FotM blaster teamed with an ill/emp FotM troller and the controller played buff bot to the blaster while invisi-healing her. Then when either of them started to lose, they ran like mad to the hero base. They never went further than the edge of the water on the beach so that the safe zone was always quickly accessable.
These are the kinds of poor sports you must deal with every single time you PvP with strangers. You know, the same cheeseballs who come in the forums here and get angry and defensive when you call them cheap/lame for being it.
To be completely accurate, every bar changes.
The Defiance meter will gradually reduce over time, as every blaster has a natural healing rate that eventually if not healed or damaged by an outside source, will cause the defiance bar to decay over time, albeit slowly.
The Domination bar increases per every attack and decreases at a much slower rate. I forget the exact math, but I think it is one or two points every 5 seconds. With the ability to absolutely maximize the domination bar at 100 and the ability to activate the power at any value over 90 I believe?
So we do see a vast difference in Fury and Domination. Our ability to peg our bar, much faster, and conversely the Fury bar completely decaying in a matter of seconds.
My take on how to improve the viability on Brutes fury in order to balance things for PvP easily and with slight changes?
Firstly, would be to fix the current errors in the Fury tables as currently all fury generation occurs in 2 point increments at 80% and below, as Castle has indicated. And secondly, would be to decrease the time incrimental decrease to the fury bar. IE, from what testing has shown, Fury decreases by larger numerical increments at higher levels. Change this to enable fury to decrease at a level that is reduced from this value.
Once Fury has reached maximum, allow fury to stay at this value slightly longer, but not excessively. That would probably be the easiest way to change it to where it would something other than ignorable results.
My true vision of how Fury would work would almost be identical to the way domination works, however it would be based on the amount of damage received.
Afterall, the only thing that really made hulk, or Juggernaut, or any of the big Comic Iconical Brute types mad, was being hurt. Hulk didnt really get mad smashing thousands of troopers, he thought that was fun. Hulk got mad when something hurt him. Juggernaut got mad when something could hurt him or at least stop him momentarily(ok so hes almost never felt pain, aside from psychic stuff). So i propose that fury be an active click type power, much in the same vein as the domination bar. The incremental mechanics that increase the bar would simply be based on the proportionate ratio of damage you take in any given instance. that way, it wouldnt have to be hard coded with numerical values.
<ul type="square">[*]Anything that attacks you and merely budges your health bar, not much if anything ubt maybe a point to fury. Over time, alot of time, this would add up. But with decay, just this small amount of fighting (minion level damage) wouldnt be enough to upset you and max your fury.
[*]Anything that attacks you and puts a noticeable dent in your helth total, such as some bosses and LTs, would contribute a decent amount of points to be applied to the fury bar. over a general amount of time, say around a few minutes or so, of fighting things at this level, a level requiring some source of healing to mitigate - other than natural regeneration rates - would be able to max the fury bar.
[*]Anything able to reduce you to half health in one hit, is something that would deffinitely piss me off (and does, damn blappers, lol) would have an enormous effect on fury. Taking subsequent high damaging hits would fill the fury meter very fast, but nothing instantaneous. it would have to be a couple of hits of this kind of lethality to register on our small brutish brains of, "Hey he actually hurting me, ME SMASH!!"
Needless to say fury generated from this level of damage would decay the same, in fact decay rate would be a constant. Since these big behomoths rarely get hurt, anything that does manage to hurt them, might stay in the memory area a bit longer. I'm pretty sure Juggsy remembers all the fights hes been in that amounted to something. Fury would decay slower than under the previous system, almost in snyc with the domination rates of decay. [/list]When enough of that fury is built up, the power can be activated, giving us the full value of maxed fury, that although we were conceptualized to do, we have never been able to achieve because of the inherent inability of our AT to stay at this level of incoming damage without much(read as nigh unachievable) outside assistance. Simply, once the FURY! power has been activated, for 3 minutes, our damage ability in game is unequalled. Currently our damage in PvP is laughable.
Devs? Want to help us out here? Right now we're really the laughing stock of all CoV AT's in most PvP zones. Seriously, how bout giving Brutes the ability to at least hold their own? This would go a long way towards that goal.
Personally I think changing the way fury works, to a system closer to the domination bar would be great, for both PvP, and PvE. No more rushing ahead of teamates to get to the next mob group, now we might die a lot less. No more getting through an entire level only to have to wait right before the final AV for everyone else to buff up as you watch your fury bar hit rock bottom. No more being laughed at by Scrappers, Tankers, Blappers, Corruptors, Controllers, Defenders, Stalkers, ok just about everyone except Masterminds, since they are so rare in PvP zones anyways. With the constant thought of "I wonder if that brute has a full Fury bar?" in more peoples heads and not currently, "Oh look a Brute, if i can kill him in the next 15 seconds he wont have enough Fury to even worry me a little."
*A note to the Devs* The uniqueness of the current fury bar is nice, although that does not overshadow the fact that we as an AT, would much prefer that you copy and pasted us a new fury bar that wasn't so unique, just as long as it actually "worked" even remotely better than what we have now.
People that play Brutes wouldn't be upset that the Fury! power looks like some other ATs inherrent power. We'd be too busy at being overjoyed that we actually have an inherrent power worth a crap to be upset that its not totally unique to our AT. Call me crazy, but I firmly believe that. And you could still say that you guys thought of it all by yourself. I don't care about egos or credits, I'm just here to have fun playing the game. SO how about giving me an inherrent power that lives up to the hype?
What do you guys/girls think?
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My true vision of how Fury would work would almost be identical to the way domination works, however it would be based on the amount of damage received.
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So your "true vision" doesn't have room for Defense-based classes like Energy Aura Brutes, hmm?
To be fair neither do the Dev's at least, if you look forwards to RV :P.
But despite perhaps not being completely in favor of everything he proposes I don't think he's forgotten the poor /EA's. It's based off the damage taken, so while the res brutes would get a constant increase in the bar, they'd be small. /EA's would get less frequent, but larger spikes to the bar since when we do get hit (and unless I'm fighting lots of Whites I get hit pretty frequently) we get hit a lot harder.
It's a nice idea, but I'd like to see how we do with Fury working 'properly' before any major overhauls. I can certainly see where he is comming from though. Getting the same amount of fury from when a minion wiffs me, as opposed to when a Stalker nearly 1 shots me is a little immersion breaking.
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My true vision of how Fury would work would almost be identical to the way domination works, however it would be based on the amount of damage received.
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So your "true vision" doesn't have room for Defense-based classes like Energy Aura Brutes, hmm?
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Did you actually think about how this would work before you typed that? That system would reward Defense based sets almost exactly proportional to resist based sets. I'm surprised I even have to explain it...
Defense based sets get hit less often from even level mobs, but slightly more from high level mobs and players, which in the end, combine so that higher level mobs that would deal more damage, are. IE, youd build fury in this manner just as quickly as ALL of your fury generation would be on that short scale, because whatever does manage to hit you, will likely hurt you alot because you DONT have those resists.
Resistance based sets would get hit more often by even level mobs and by higher level mobs equally, but would take less damage in the long run do to having high resists.
Getting hit less, but for higher damage
Getting hit more but for less damage.
Both would be equal for the purposes of generating fury. It's not that hard to figure out really. So yeah my "True Vision" of fury very much has room for EA brutes in it, contrary to your initial - and apparently cursory - evaluation...
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To be fair neither do the Dev's at least, if you look forwards to RV :P.
But despite perhaps not being completely in favor of everything he proposes I don't think he's forgotten the poor /EA's. It's based off the damage taken, so while the res brutes would get a constant increase in the bar, they'd be small. /EA's would get less frequent, but larger spikes to the bar since when we do get hit (and unless I'm fighting lots of Whites I get hit pretty frequently) we get hit a lot harder.
It's a nice idea, but I'd like to see how we do with Fury working 'properly' before any major overhauls. I can certainly see where he is comming from though. Getting the same amount of fury from when a minion wiffs me, as opposed to when a Stalker nearly 1 shots me is a little immersion breaking.
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Bingo. I too would be very willing to just let the devs fix the current system and see how that goes. Honestly though, if the "fix" still leaves us feeling underwhelmed, I'm all for new ideas That's just one idea I had a long time ago, and from what I've thought about it, wouldn't be too bad a system.
As you said, and I originally thought of, it would deffinitely be more immersive.
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Did you actually think about how this would work before you typed that? That system would reward Defense based sets almost exactly proportional to resist based sets. I'm surprised I even have to explain it...
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Except that this would still mean an EA Brute at his cap (i.e. running Overload or munching purples) would get almost no Fury at all. Generally, it's not a good idea to make the final power in one's set less desirable to use than not.
And come I7, he's already going to be 2/3 or more of the way to his cap just on his toggles--he's not gonna get hit nearly as often as he is now.
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Except that this would still mean an EA Brute at his cap (i.e. running Overload or munching purples) would get almost no Fury at all. Generally, it's not a good idea to make the final power in one's set less desirable to use than not.
And come I7, he's already going to be 2/3 or more of the way to his cap just on his toggles--he's not gonna get hit nearly as often as he is now.
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Firstly, judging the effectiveness of Fury only when you have your level 38 power activated is not my idea of a balanced qualitative measurement.
In either case, your worries about Defensive sets being somehow punished under a new system whereby fury is comensurate with incoming damage are unfounded. having the ability to go into an AV fight and immediately clicking overload, and FURY!,(if it was much like a dominators inherent) doesn't strike me as anything less desireable.
If anything, it would give you "more" control on how you used fury to better help you the player. More control over when to deal the most damage for the most effect, is never less desirable. One Shotting minions is fun and all, but in the end it's relatively wasteful, especially if one doesn't have an endless supply of endurance. So again, I'm not sure how you attribute a different system such as the one I listed as "less desirable". Situationaly less desireable? perhaps, and also perhaps situationaly more desireable. AV fights? click, youre at max damage right now, as opposed to 10 seconds later when the AV already has you on the ropes fighting to get yourself healed. Situationally more desirable when you are looking out over Sirens Call and you see a Tanker and Scrapper heading at you. Now your only option of running might include staying for a while and maybe having a shot at taking the scrapper down, because you just got done winning a neighborhood battle, and you're still sitting at abouty 96 points of Fury.
Again not getting hit nearly as often is a good thing.
Are you still under the assumption that you will always have zero fury without contant battle? You won't, it would be near impossible with decreased decay rates. If anything, it would allow you to pick and choose your battles more, enabling you to control the tempo of your engagements more. To build Fury, you could *gasp*
Drop a defensive toggle?
Then put it back on? when you have fury built up, and now you can potentially save that Fury and maintain that level of Fury for...say...
Next mob group, the next mission even, or when some heroes show up unexpectedly? Dropping one or two toggles to build Fury, and save endurance? Sure you might take some more damage, but if that's how you build fury, is that not an awesome tradeoff?
Would that system not "Encourage" AT inter-dependancy? Not encourage teamwork and teaming? While at the same time, allow soloists to simply use a few greens? At level 40, do you even use greens anymore? I surely don't.
Thats what dominator can do right now, he can pick and choose his big battles. How is more control a bad thing? I can totally peg my domination bar, and by the time I've travelled to my next mission and gotten to the first mob group, it's still over 3/4 full. Imagine that. Being able to totally control your Fury Bar for maximum effect. What a horrible suggestion...
any clearer? is this thing on? testing...1 ...2
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Sure you might take some more damage, but if that's how you build fury, is that not an awesome tradeoff?
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That's really the heart of the matter. The majority of players don't seem to think that this is anything resembling an awesome tradeoff. Most of us would prefer a solution that allows us to build fury without having to worry about being killed because we had a toggle down.
What you're describing is essentially trading health for damage output. Check out any one of the defiance threads in the blaster forum to see how well that's gone over for them. Giving more control in the form of turning toggles on or off just gives you a choice of whether to suck because you're on the verge of death or to suck because you can't do any damage, and I don't think most people like that choice.
why not simply calculate the incoming damage and boost fury appropiately. That way even if it whiffs you still get fury.
Sorry if thats already been sed.
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No more rushing ahead of teammates to get to the next mob group, now we might die a lot less.
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I could not disagree more
You are of course entitled to your vision of what fury should be, but to me the very draw of playing a brute is the need for a relentless, high risk dirge of mayhem.
Throw some basic engagement geometry into the high speed mix, and you have a challenge, throw in target selection, secondary effect application, aggro control and end management, all into a fury speed engagement and you have the potential for some serious artistry. I'm not interested in playing a tank with a scrapper damage switch, I rather prefer things the way they are.
I will grant you that in PVP, Brutes can be at a significant disadvantage. I'll happily concede that your concept will be more effective in PVP than what we now have, but to me, the price is simply not worth paying. The bulk of my playing, and indeed the bulk of all play time in this game is spent in PVE. You can quickly check the populations of zones any time youre on to establish this.
I would never agree to breaking a wonderful PVE AT for the sake of PVP.
I'm also not in any way convinced that fury needs to be fundamentally changed in order to function in PVP. A simple modification to the amount of fury generated by attacking a player, or being attacked by a player can do very nearly as well.
The obvious argument to this would be that a fury generation rate balanced to combat blasters would necessarily be too high (unfairly so) when measured against tanks. This doesnt need to be the case. Even as it stands, a skilled melee toon will continuously hit and run against brutes, kiting them all over the map if need be. Such a tactic puts fury generation into the same realm as a ten second blapper drive by. That is, nearly useless with current generation rates, but potentially fair with increased rates.
By all means appeal to the powers that be for a change, but I, for one, seriously hope that you do not succeed.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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Sure you might take some more damage, but if that's how you build fury, is that not an awesome tradeoff?
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That's really the heart of the matter. The majority of players don't seem to think that this is anything resembling an awesome tradeoff. Most of us would prefer a solution that allows us to build fury without having to worry about being killed because we had a toggle down.
What you're describing is essentially trading health for damage output. Check out any one of the defiance threads in the blaster forum to see how well that's gone over for them. Giving more control in the form of turning toggles on or off just gives you a choice of whether to suck because you're on the verge of death or to suck because you can't do any damage, and I don't think most people like that choice.
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Wow, ok where to start.
First I'm not sure what precluded all the melodramatics and "OMG we would suck so bad!" language, but let me fill you in a bit on the State of Brute affairs at the moment, comparitively speaking with other ATs.
WE ALREADY SUCK!
There now that my own melodramatic retort is out of the way, let me begin debunking this mess.
1. I am not advocating that Brute's inherrent power be turned in to anything remotely resembling the Defiance meter for Blasters. It would in NO WAY, SHAPE, or FORM be like the defiance meter for Blasters.
2. Your comment that "the majority of players dont seem to think that trading damage for the ability to deal damage in return is a likeable", rings pretty hollow, in the face of an existing Fury bar which almost requires you to soak immense amounts of mob aggro, and thereby increase the possibility of higher incoming damage, in order to maintain max Fury already. The bar already works about half and half in this regard already, the other half of the bar being comensurate with the amount of attacking the player does.
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Most of us would prefer a solution that allows us to build fury without having to worry about being killed because we had a toggle down.
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I'm sure everyone would love to have absolutely no risk and dispense enormous loads of carnage with nigh impunity. Fortunately for everyone else though, we actually have a system that disbars that from happening already in place. People playing Brutes already have to worry about being killed with no toggles up and running. Let me state this for the record, with the exceptions of Ambushes (and not even really then, since you usually understand the mechanics that trigger them) and Player versus Player interactions, we always control our own engagements. We always choose when to attack. Mobs just don't "Surprise us" with our toggles down out of no-where. if you control the situation 9 times out of 10, how are you going to even have cause to worry about being caught with your pants down, unless you are totally aware of the consequences? How does that increase worry? either you understand your ATs limitations with regards to taking damage, or you don't, but in either case you still maintain control of the situation. If you don't know your builds capabilities, how is that a problem of the way Fury may or may not work? Answer is, it isn't; It's a problem with the player getting in over his head, and who's fault is that? The Fury Bar's?
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What you're describing is essentially trading health for damage output.
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Essentially, essentially...
Great. Trivialize something to the point that it can be easily disputed for conveniences sake, and suddenly you've made a compelling argument. This isn't me trying to win a debate. I'm not really proposing anything, as much as I am just sharing my opinion and an idea. There's really no need for you to trivialize the mechanics I stipulated to suit your argument and opinions. Just say whats on your mind.
Needless to say even with your generalizations, your assertion still doesn't hold water to enable a Blaster Defiance inherrent power comparison.
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Giving more control in the form of turning toggles on or off just gives you a choice of whether to suck because you're on the verge of death or to suck because you can't do any damage,
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Really, that's a great statement. If it weren't for the complete lack of substantative premise and overabundance of cliche terminology, I might actually be able to understand it. As it stands though, I'm not even sure what to make of it?
But whatever the case may be, please, no more comparisons to Blaster defiance. I clearly stated about 20 ways my idea for a fury inherrent was closer to Dominators inherrent. I can list numerous ways in which it's not like Blaster's defiance. Do I need to go through all that, or can I just assume you can draw your own conclusions people? Please, draw your own conclusions, but no more generalizations and melodrama, O.K.? I didn't even intend for everyone to take this all so seriously. It's like you all thought I was Sir Issac newton claiming that some unseen force compels all objects towards the center of the planets mass, when all I was saying was:
"hey i had this neat idea about fury while I was sitting on the crapper, whad'ya think?"
Jeez. Simmer down people.
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No more rushing ahead of teammates to get to the next mob group, now we might die a lot less.
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I could not disagree more
You are of course entitled to your vision of what fury should be, but to me the very draw of playing a brute is the need for a relentless, high risk dirge of mayhem.
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You're very much entitled to play your Brute the way you want to, that of a "Balls to wall", rush blindly around every corner, and hope your teamates have your back kind of Brute. I play mine the same way, as I'm rendered ineffective playing it any other way because of the lack of solid Fury sustaining mechanics we have right now. Of course there is the flip side to that because when you inevitably die - again because you are in no way, shape, or form, a Tanker - you can thank that mastermind for rousing you from your concrete nap. PLaying Brutes encourages team participation. Score one for the community.
However, Fun is fun for some, and worry for others. So fun for you or I running around as fast as we possibly can might not be the definition of how to play the game for other ATs, or do you just team with other brutes? I often team with many ATs who often don't care most of the times, but also find it slightly annoying to have to constantly watch as the Brute flings himself headfirst into each mob group, facilitating concern from the rest of the team.
In either case, now that we bring that up, how exactly would my method of Fury generation, not allow you to have your same level of fun? I don't see much of a difference. Pick and choose whichever statements allow you to take the biggest offense though. That's the commonality of the forum method of discussion apparently.
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Throw some basic engagement geometry into the high speed mix, and you have a challenge, throw in target selection, secondary effect application, aggro control and end management, all into a fury speed engagement and you have the potential for some serious artistry. I'm not interested in playing a tank with a scrapper damage switch, I rather prefer things the way they are.
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Here's a secret, you are playing a sup-par tank with a broken Scrapper damage switch already. the only difference between the change I thought of, and the one we currently have, in the context of your statement, is that we would have more control on how, where, and when to deal Scrapper damage. You've failed to convince me that's a bad thing.
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I will grant you that in PVP, Brutes can be at a significant disadvantage. I'll happily concede that your concept will be more effective in PVP than what we now have
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It just might. Pretty easy to see I think. Thanks for granting me, and all the other Brutes who would like to feel somewhat usefull in PvP that point. I'm sure we all appreciate it.
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but to me, the price is simply not worth paying. The bulk of my playing, and indeed the bulk of all play time in this game is spent in PVE. You can quickly check the populations of zones any time youre on to establish this.
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Thats great. I am the exact same way. Was this the part where you mentioned the cons of my suggestion in PvE play? That's really the only way I see to talk about how bad it is without just making broad generalizations that accomplish little in getting any point you may have had across. What price is my suggestion asking you to pay, that you aren't already paying to a somewhat lesser extent?
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I would never agree to breaking a wonderful PVE AT for the sake of PVP.
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Neither would I. You think changing the Fury bar would break the AT? That's Highly ironic considering that myself and many other players right now think that living with a broken and sub=par Fury bar that we have IS breaking our AT.
Looks like castle agrees with us too thankfully. You may thank Brutes everywhere that PvP, for fixing your PvE Fury bar, if that's the way you want to look at it; I'm game. If it hadn't have been for Fury's lackluster performance in PvP, and player's inquisitive and questioning manners, our AT might have been perpetually "in the dark" about how the Fury bar actually isn't working as it was intended to.
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I'm also not in any way convinced that fury needs to be fundamentally changed in order to function in PVP. A simple modification to the amount of fury generated by attacking a player, or being attacked by a player can do very nearly as well.
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Well despite your convictions based on numerous PvP excursions (I'm just giving you the benefit of the doubt to make things easier there), Fury is currently, and largely, a wasted and innefectual empty bar. It's never full when you need it, and never gets a chance to get there, provided there are a few heroes about. (Blasters, Scrappers, and Defenders come to mind.)
I agree with proper tweaking the Fury bar we have very well could work. Read my statement here again please:
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My take on how to improve the viability on Brutes fury in order to balance things for PvP easily and with slight changes?
Firstly, would be to fix the current errors in the Fury tables as currently all fury generation occurs in 2 point increments at 80% and below, as Castle has indicated. And secondly, would be to decrease the time incrimental decrease to the fury bar. IE, from what testing has shown, Fury decreases by larger numerical increments at higher levels. Change this to enable fury to decrease at a level that is reduced from this value.
Once Fury has reached maximum, allow fury to stay at this value slightly longer, but not excessively. That would probably be the easiest way to change it to where it would something other than ignorable results.
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As you can see, I am all for fixing the current system. I also stated that if those fixes still did not yeild the amicable results ,we of the Brute community were looking for, that perhaps new directions or an overhaul of current fury mechanics could be examined.
So again, I'm all for trying to make the current system work, but if it can't yield anything other than ignorable results, it's time we re-evaluated our outlook on how Fury should work.
Historically speaking, creating more options or ability to control all character aspects "never" hurt a players ability to interact with the game. I'm not saying this option that I came up with is the right one. Not at all, I'm saying that we should have the ability to look for one without being met with tooth and claw by the very people we would be helping in the long run.
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The obvious argument to this would be that a fury generation rate balanced to combat blasters would necessarily be too high (unfairly so) when measured against tanks.
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How do you figure? First, Brutes are not tanks, we don't have near the defensive magnitudes of the Tanker AT. Any comparison there is speculatory at best. Second of all, no one said fury needed to be "augmented" to combat blasters, we're simply saying it needs to be "Fixed" so that the Brute AT can actually do what it was "Intended" to do. And why is it that everyone assumes, no one can have more damage than Blasters? Probably cause that's the way the cookie crumbles. Even a Brute at full fury will still be at minimum, comparible to a blaster for ten seconds of Aim and Build up, and since hardly any fight between the two ATs will last longer than that, what is so advantageous about equal levels of damage on both sides? If its comparible, how is any side able to claim advantage? If anything the Blaster will still be better off with his accuracy boosts. How is including the Tanker AT into any argument about damage a stadard of measure? We already have lower base damage than they do! I'm sure tankers wouldn't be upset in this instance. They have the realm of defense on lockdown already, and we wouldn't be challenging them for it, so how will they look at any improvements to Brutes Fury as "Unfair"?
I just don't get it at all.
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This doesnt need to be the case. Even as it stands, a skilled melee toon will continuously hit and run against brutes, kiting them all over the map if need be. Such a tactic puts fury generation into the same realm as a ten second blapper drive by. That is, nearly useless with current generation rates, but potentially fair with increased rates.
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You want to compare fury generation with a ten second blaster drive by? Easy. Brute as a chalk outline on the ground. 100% of the time, barring anything short of Granite or US/OL, if all he has is Fury going for him. You better be bringing some single target mez effects if you even want to make that anything other than a one-sided engagement.
And while we're at it, since when is the game balanced in one on one engagements? Historically speaking, it never has been, nor has that ever been the attempt or premise for balance.
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By all means appeal to the powers that be for a change, but I, for one, seriously hope that you do not succeed.
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This is the part where I say "You must not have been reading very close because I never said, nor alluded to trying to gain any support for this idea," That's all it was was, just an idea I had, and felt like sharing. I didn't create a new topic and try to take polls. I didn't say this was my grand design to save the game and the Brute AT. I simply said "hey this was my idea that i had a while back, what do you think?" Any kind of grand scope or scale here has strictly been on the side of any and all opposition.
How that very unassuming idea merited all the cries of "DOOM!" and "OMG you'll break the AT!", and your comment of "hoping you don't succeed"...I'll never know. Succeed in what? I wasn't trying to succeed in anything for Pete's sakes. Some of you folks act like I was trying to bend Statesman's ear or something. Seriously if you want to show me how bad my idea would be, please do in a sensible way citing specifics, and if it makes more sense to me, then yeah thats great. It's only discussion. There is no petition going around with my name on it. Feel free to end said "anti-Deus's Ideas! crusade". Call off your hounds sir, the game is not a-foot. In fact it was never on the field. He was too busy enjoying his espresso and his new copy of "To reign in Hell" to worry about Doom-cryers haranguing him to death on baseless assumptions. It was never intended to be as serious as you guys obviously mistook it to be.
To Everyone:
Feel free to end all discussion about "Deus's Big-bad Fury Ideas", because that is exactly what I plan to do myself.
You can all feel free to belabor the points all you want to, because I'm not going to anymore as this discussion is well beyond where I even wanted it to go. It was a simple idea. That's it. No reason to work yourself up to aneurism levels over it. That's all, enjoy your day(s).
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Let me be the first to say that that statement is utter nonsense. Castle is quite possibly one of the most helpful and reachable developers the player base has at Cryptic. He's no more interested in "advocating" for stalkers as he is for any other AT. It just so happens that the squeakiest wheel usually gets the grease, and in this game right now, the AT causing the loudest noise is the Stalker AT. It has nothing to do with your implied bias.
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I don't think that quite came out as intended, but I'll say this, the three most complaining AT's (the way I see it at least) are Dominators, Blasters and Defenders. I think the Defenders don't have much to gripe about. Blasters have more to complain about, but it's not nearly as bad as it's made out to be, and Dominators have it worse than any AT, and that's why they are the least played non-Epic AT in the game.
No offense to Stalkers or to other sets that have beefs (many legitimate) but I think Dominators need more help than any other AT.
Brutes are just amazing, and I hope the Fury issues get worked out. But all I know is that I'm having more fun with this Brute I am playing than any other CoV AT's I've tried yet. I look at us as needing the least amount of help as an AT. 
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because when you inevitably die - again because you are in no way, shape, or form, a Tanker... ...but also find it slightly annoying to have to constantly watch as the Brute flings himself headfirst into each mob group, facilitating concern from the rest of the team.
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Death for my EM EA on relentless arrives about once a night at level 40, this, even on a team with no other player above 37 (admittedly they are very skilled, sometimes frighteningly so). In almost all cases it is not mad circumstance that does me in, but a direct and discernable deficiency in my skill. Most often a silly mistake that I really do know better than to make. If I screw up, I perish. There is nothing wrong with the system in that. I haven't heard any complaints about dieing too much.
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In either case, now that we bring that up, how exactly would my method of Fury generation, not allow you to have your same level of fun?
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Fun is clearly subjective. You may define your ideal, and I'll define mine. You've suggested a fury generation method that you believe will be more fun for you, and which I agree will be better in PVP. I've suggested that I believe that the current fury generation is more fun for me, and have suggested a fix that cannot help but be superior to the current standard in PVP. That is all.
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Here's a secret, you are playing a sup-par tank with a broken Scrapper damage switch already.
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Given a recent check of my hero stats numbers, I average a fury of around 75-80% it's a little tough to tell exactly. On base numbers alone this is superior to scrapper damage when neither of us are running buildup (most of the time) and slightly inferior when both of us are (some of the time)
Factor in that an EM attack chain has a significantly higher BI than a scrapper chain, and I'm not doing broken scrapper damage. I am doing damage that is superior to what any scrapper can do, and with more hitpoints, and with higher max defences (though admittedly with fewer opportunities to play chess, one can only think so fast while maintaining fury)
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Neither would I. You think changing the Fury bar would break the AT? That's Highly ironic considering that myself and many other players right now think that living with a broken and sub=par Fury bar that we have IS breaking our AT.
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Again, this is a PVP conclusion. I doubt that many brutes would draw such a conclusion about PVE play.
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Looks like castle agrees with us too thankfully. You may thank Brutes everywhere that PvP, for fixing your PvE Fury bar, if that's the way you want to look at it; I'm game. If it hadn't have been for Fury's lackluster performance in PvP, and player's inquisitive and questioning manners, our AT might have been perpetually "in the dark" about how the Fury bar actually isn't working as it was intended to.
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I particularly thank Robotech_Master for addressing this issue with _Castle_
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My take on how to improve the viability on Brutes fury in order to balance things for PvP easily and with slight changes?
Firstly, would be to fix the current errors in the Fury tables as currently all fury generation occurs in 2 point increments at 80% and below, as Castle has indicated. And secondly, would be to decrease the time incrimental decrease to the fury bar. IE, from what testing has shown, Fury decreases by larger numerical increments at higher levels. Change this to enable fury to decrease at a level that is reduced from this value.
Once Fury has reached maximum, allow fury to stay at this value slightly longer, but not excessively. That would probably be the easiest way to change it to where it would something other than ignorable results.
As you can see, I am all for fixing the current system. I also stated that if those fixes still did not yeild the amicable results ,we of the Brute community were looking for, that perhaps new directions or an overhaul of current fury mechanics could be examined.
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Sorry if you mistook my intent, I have no issue with this, it sounds great. It is the suggestion that fury be changed to a click that concerns me.
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How do you figure? First, Brutes are not tanks, we don't have near the defensive magnitudes of the Tanker AT. Any comparison there is speculatory at best. Second of all, no one said fury needed to be "augmented" to combat blasters, we're simply saying it needs to be "Fixed" so that the Brute AT can actually do what it was "Intended" to do. And why is it that everyone assumes, no one can have more damage than Blasters? Probably cause that's the way the cookie crumbles. Even a Brute at full fury will still be at minimum, comparible to a blaster for ten seconds of Aim and Build up, and since hardly any fight between the two ATs will last longer than that, what is so advantageous about equal levels of damage on both sides? If its comparible, how is any side able to claim advantage? If anything the Blaster will still be better off with his accuracy boosts. How is including the Tanker AT into any argument about damage a stadard of measure? We already have lower base damage than they do! I'm sure tankers wouldn't be upset in this instance. They have the realm of defense on lockdown already, and we wouldn't be challenging them for it, so how will they look at any improvements to Brutes Fury as "Unfair"?
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Ok, perhaps it is not so obvious. If a brute has a fury bar that responds so quickly, that 6 hits from a blapper (plus your self generated fury during that time) is enough to top it off, then those scaling factors, when applied during a spat with a tank could result in full fury, full time. This is not appropriate, and is a strong argument against increasing the scaling of fury to that level. It is in fact a prime argument for damage-factored fury scaling. I submit that it is not a valid concern. I submit that with the hit and run tactics currently employed against brutes, the same level of fury generation will be appropriate against both opponents.
Engaging most opponents with a full fury bar is very effective. If you wish to test this, Id suggest you camp in the tunnels to the web. The spiderlings will happily attack you in a harmless but fury filling barrage of tiny attacks. You can loiter around at 90%+ fury until some poor (insert almost any AT here) comes along.
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And while we're at it, since when is the game balanced in one on one engagements? Historically speaking, it never has been, nor has that ever been the attempt or premise for balance.
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I had thought the point of this was to improve PVP balance. Was I mistaken?
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This is the part where I say "You must not have been reading very close because I never said, nor alluded to trying to gain any support for this idea," That's all it was, just an idea I had, and felt like sharing. I didn't create a new topic and try to take polls. I didn't say this was my grand design to save the game and the Brute AT. I simply said "hey this was my idea that i had a while back, what do you think?" Any kind of grand scope or scale here has strictly been on the side of any and all opposition.
How that very unassuming idea merited all the cries of "DOOM!" and "OMG you'll break the AT!", and your comment of "hoping you don't succeed"...I'll never know. Succeed in what? I wasn't trying to succeed in anything for Pete's sakes. Some of you folks act like I was trying to bend Statesman's ear or something. Seriously if you want to show me how bad my idea would be, please do in a sensible way citing specifics, and if it makes more sense to me, then yeah thats great. It's only discussion. There is no petition going around with my name on it. Feel free to end said "anti-Deus's Ideas! crusade". Call off your hounds sir, the game is not a-foot. In fact it was never on the field. He was too busy enjoying his espresso and his new copy of "To reign in Hell" to worry about Doom-cryers haranguing him to death on baseless assumptions. It was never intended to be as serious as you guys obviously mistook it to be.
To Everyone:
Feel free to end all discussion about "Deus's Big-bad Fury Ideas", because that is exactly what I plan to do myself.
You can all feel free to belabor the points all you want to, because I'm not going to anymore as this discussion is well beyond where I even wanted it to go. It was a simple idea. That's it. No reason to work yourself up to aneurism levels over it. That's all, enjoy your day(s).
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I think there is something evident in these cries of DOOM. Perhaps your post and this thread have been effective in establishing something:
Most players really do like fury more or less the way it is.
oh by the way
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He was too busy enjoying his espresso and his new copy of "To reign in Hell"
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have you every read "How to be a villian" or a"A villains guide to better living" HIGHLY recommended, non cerebral light reading!
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Deus I know your done talking about your idea so Ill be brief. Powers like dull pain and Earths Embrace would have to be looked at under this new system where damage provides fury because as we all know using dull pain at around 40% hp gives you a full health bar and increases you max hps. Meaning that you just generated 60% of your hit points worth of fury which should be a big chunk if the system were designed your way, with no danger at all.
If you look back at this thread you posted (at length) 5 times after you presented your original idea versus everyone else on the boards 6. Draw what conclusion you will but I think you took peoples comments/criticism as attacks. You cant put out and idea and say what do you think? and expect people not to tell you.
Fury is not perfect and what you propose is a decent alternative which Im sure will never be implemented. Hell if blasters cant get defiance changed then there is no way we will get fury changed.
As far as my beliefs on fury, well it sucks pvp but I have never had a problem with it in pve. At 40 I can get full fury in no time at all and as alt lowbies I can out damage anyone because of it. I dont even slot damage (except big smash). Ideas are needed to fix fury for pvp but this solution would possibly hurt more then it would help IMHO.
Ideas for a fix are needed and hopefully the devs will listen,
micro
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Oddly I'm blown away by how fast I can peg the bar on my dominator. Meaning I can peg the bar. I have never pegged the bar on my brute. I have been toying with jumping into a mob, and having a bunch of greens just to see if I can, but I'm needing the infamy right now.
Yes I'm that cheap
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Brute "Fury" Bars are actually quite different from Dominator "Domination" bars...so that's not a very good comparison or annalysis..
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On my blaster I can get my Defiance bar to peg.
On my dominator I can get my Domination bar to peg.
On my brute I cannot get my fury bar to peg. (Granted I have not played with it as I am more interested in leveling, than learing the idiosyncries of the fury bar.)
From that stand point I see it as a valid comparison. I have a tool, that I can't use to its fullest potential. Should it not go all the way to the right?
[/ QUOTE ]actually...on your blaster someone else gets your defiance bar to peg...
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(regarding the Blaster)
No... I can.
I fly up as high as I can. I fall to the ground.. I have one hit point, and BAM!!! Defiance is pegged. I then Snipe and run like hell. It isn't really a good tatic, but it does get the bar pegged.
Last night I saw the ghost of the Scrapyard. I started aggroing as many minions as I could (I think I recorded it, but I'm guessing maybe 35 minions) and eventually The Ghost himself. I was swinging like a madman. The Fury bar went to ~95%. It just seems like it won't quite go there.
Just Lucky that way...
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Oddly I'm blown away by how fast I can peg the bar on my dominator. Meaning I can peg the bar. I have never pegged the bar on my brute. I have been toying with jumping into a mob, and having a bunch of greens just to see if I can, but I'm needing the infamy right now.
Yes I'm that cheap
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Brute "Fury" Bars are actually quite different from Dominator "Domination" bars...so that's not a very good comparison or annalysis..
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On my blaster I can get my Defiance bar to peg.
On my dominator I can get my Domination bar to peg.
On my brute I cannot get my fury bar to peg. (Granted I have not played with it as I am more interested in leveling, than learing the idiosyncries of the fury bar.)
From that stand point I see it as a valid comparison. I have a tool, that I can't use to its fullest potential. Should it not go all the way to the right?
[/ QUOTE ]actually...on your blaster someone else gets your defiance bar to peg...
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(regarding the Blaster)
No... I can.
I fly up as high as I can. I fall to the ground.. I have one hit point, and BAM!!! Defiance is pegged. I then Snipe and run like hell. It isn't really a good tatic, but it does get the bar pegged.
Last night I saw the ghost of the Scrapyard. I started aggroing as many minions as I could (I think I recorded it, but I'm guessing maybe 35 minions) and eventually The Ghost himself. I was swinging like a madman. The Fury bar went to ~95%. It just seems like it won't quite go there.
[/ QUOTE ]ya you could do that, i ws hoping that wasnt what you intended on doing to build bar...but you need to find a target before you hit the ground..or that 1 hp might not last very long..someone will be looking for you.....i frequently hit TAB as i pvp to find people with low hp..so i can cull the herd a little.
I know you're right. It's too bad that pvp is turning into the clone wars. Meaning its all storm controllers and blappers with superspeed vs. stalkers