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That's right. I don't want an AR blaster or a Claws scrapper to give me 15 fury per hit on my brute, because i don't want a challenge. Seriously man, Claws scrappers have been owning villains for so long, and dark blast is so overpowered that it's about time we got some payback. 
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Madman do you even know how fury works (better yet how it is supposed to)?
If attacking: 100- current fury / 20 (* 2 for lt boss *3 for AV hero)
If attacked: 100- current fury / 40 (* 2 for lt boss *3 for AV hero).
So if a claws attacked a brute you would get these values
1st attack: 100-0/40 *3 = 7.5 pts.
2nd attack: 100-15/40 * 3 = 6.375 points
3rd attack: 100 - 27.75/40 *3 = 5.4 points of fury.
You would gain 15 pts for the brute 1st attack. and none of this is factoring -2pts of fury every second. When I did top DPS chains for both sets factoring AT modifiers a brute needed a about 65% fury to match a scrapper dmg including criticals (both of these were top of the line dps chains).
In 10 seconds your looking at a total of 7 attacks and 7 times attacked on avg. In a toe to toe go at it (no kiting jousting etc.) Right off the bat you lose 20 pts of fury for the 10 seconds. I will go 20/7 = 2.85 pts lost per attack due to time... to round I will subtract 3 pts of fury for each round of 7. So below you will see a total of 7 rounds, with each round representing 2 attacks one from brute one from scrapper for a total of 10 seconds. This will factor how fury gains less as you have more fury and time deticks (which I rounded to 3 pts per round).
1) 15 (fury from attacking) + 7.5 (fury from being attacked)= 22.5 fury - 3 (for detick)= 19.5 fury
2) 12 + 6 = 18 = 37.5 - 3 = 34.5 fury
3) 10 + 5 = 15 = 49.5 - 3 = 46.5 fury
4) 8 + 4 = 12 = 58.5 - 3 = 55.5 fury
5) 6 + 3 = 9 = 67.5 -3 = 64.5 fury
5) 5 + 2.5 = 7.5 = 72 - 3 = 69 fury
6) 4 + 2 = 6 = 75 - 3 = 72 fury
7) 4 + 2 = 6 = 78 -3 = 75 fury
So now we take all those 7 fury numbers and find the avg... 19.5 +34.5 .......... + 75 fury What we get is an avg of 62.4 points of fury. So even if fury was fixed perfectly: for a brute begin to eqaul scrapper dmg they would have to stand toe to toe for 10 seconds each attack 7 times (and these being attacks not BU's). And even at 10 second they are a little behind. (but they do have higher health)
However, how often does this happen? What you would find is if a scrapper stayed longer then those 10 seconds a brute would gain the upper hand.... if the stayed less then those 10 seconds the scrapper would have the upper hand.
Scrapper game plan: 10 seconds of attacks and move
Brute game plan: keep scrapper there longer then 10 seconds.
Note FU is 10 seconds of on time.... So even a claws playing right and moving after each FU session then waiting to repeat would have the upper hand.
Also in the case of BU... scrappers have the upper hand in those 10 second becuase BU is added to fury and SO which in a way decreases it net value... but scrappers is only added to SO.
Actually fixing brutes seems pretty balanced.
brutes have no place in pvp, like doms and kheldians
Your statement will fall on deaf ears anarch. All madman sees, since he only wants to see things from "wahhh I won't be able to just laugh at brute damage anymore" perspective, he doesn't understand the simple fact that brutes are, ahve been, and for quite sometime and even stated by devs, broken.
they don't have the resources to fix it.
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they don't have the resources to fix it.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm sure, might want to look up where Castle jsut posted recently and said they devised a fix.
yeah there's a ton of things "in the works"
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Your statement will fall on deaf ears anarch. All madman sees, since he only wants to see things from "wahhh I won't be able to just laugh at brute damage anymore" perspective, he doesn't understand the simple fact that brutes are, ahve been, and for quite sometime and even stated by devs, broken.
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Well madman was factoring that his claws would give of 15 pts of fury per attack... when actually 7.5 then a diminishing return. Perhaps he was misinfromed about how fury would work if it was fixed to work how it is supposed to work.
Rather then continuing to argue with him, I decided to lay out numbers and maybe somewhere in them we can see brutes would not be overpowered with how fury would work. Or my point being scrappers would still have viable stratagies to beat brutes, and brute viable stratagies to beat scrappers, and who does their plan the best wins. However, it would require scrappers to move rather then going toe to toe non-stop.
Almost as good as a dev answer. I'm sorry the 15 fury per hit was gathered from the original post where i assumed the fury would continue to be generated at that rate, as seems logical when against an AV or pvp opponent with high burst damage.
I do NOT have a claws scrapper, nor will i ever. Pretending that a scrapper can crit at will is just stupid, as was silverspar saying that scrapper defense was invincible in SC in the stalker forum. I've criticized alot of changes stalkers think are fair to the point the think i don't have a stalker myself, such as a perception nerf or giving stalkers blaster health.
If people need to create strawmen to mask the fact they aren't good at what they do, fine, but equality between sets was mentioned in the pvp forum before and noone cried there. Then again, noone was saying claws was a threat to villains either.
You seem to try and paint the wrong picture there. Quite obviously to. One, it shows your utter incompetance and ability to not pay attention, and further derives the fact you pretend to know everything about every AT, when you failed to even read or understand what I was posting when I posted in the stalker forum, but since my stalker has long since been deleted I don't psot there anymore.
Now, best answer for you, to drop the subject on brutes, since you know nothing about them in PvP.
hahah like thats going t- IBTL +1!
Oh crap, I'm sorry that was a reflex. Seriously!
I've read madman's posts and the responses to them and finally realised that we need to stop arguing with him about this. He's just being cautious about this, overly so in my opinion but thats besides the point.
We brutes haven't had many, if any, Nerf X threads but after this change goes live who knows what might happen. No, I don't agree with madman's statements in the least but they did get me thinking of the consequences that MIGHT happen.
Its most likely nothing though, our PvP effectiveness was broken to begin with, if we start owning in PvP because we were finally fixed then maybe we were supposed to 
I doubt we'd ever own pvp, there will always be /rad corruptors and controllers. There will always be defenders who can cut away our shields and slowly torture us to death, there will always be highly effective finely tuned hero teams that will be very well set up to deal with us, hell even an ice/EM + ill/emp duo will probably be enough.
Still, looking forward to this though!
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
<Quick Reply>
What this sounds like is:
"Fix Fury for all the other ATs I don't play, and keep it broken for mine. I don't want it to change."
Whether or not you mean differently, when 8 out of 8 people say they aren't getting the meaning... you're aren't expressing it correctly.
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Almost as good as a dev answer. I'm sorry the 15 fury per hit was gathered from the original post where i assumed the fury would continue to be generated at that rate, as seems logical when against an AV or pvp opponent with high burst damage.
I do NOT have a claws scrapper, nor will i ever. Pretending that a scrapper can crit at will is just stupid, as was silverspar saying that scrapper defense was invincible in SC in the stalker forum. I've criticized alot of changes stalkers think are fair to the point the think i don't have a stalker myself, such as a perception nerf or giving stalkers blaster health.
If people need to create strawmen to mask the fact they aren't good at what they do, fine, but equality between sets was mentioned in the pvp forum before and noone cried there. Then again, noone was saying claws was a threat to villains either.
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I understand what you are saying. I even agree that your logic about what would happen makes sense. However, it makes sense given you did not now how fury works and you did not play a claws scrapper.
Seeing fury go from 2 pts now, what we get per attack or being attacked, to 15 for attacking and 7.5 for being attack for the first shot is huge (which you thought 15 for both). This seems like a dramatic leap and if it continued to grow by the same percentage... i.e. 30/15 then 45/22.5, I could see how one would be worried. Heck you thought 15 for each making each attacking going to 30 fury then 60 fury then 90 fury... basically putting you almost at cap in 3 attacks and 3 times being attacked. However, and to put simply, fury would not work that way if fixed properly. This is why I wrote what I did. You assumed fury would grow to 90 pts in 3 exchanges (6 shots), However, with how it works, you would be at 46.5 (half of what you expected). Further fury would be getting harder and harder to maintain. This is also in a controlled setting. I.E. two players standing still and just attacking so 0 movements. In pvp this is rare, and a play style choice so any AT could slow fury down by simply moving on occasion.
Next point on claws. Seeing how claws have fast animations it is logical to say claws will build fury faster then other sets. However, not playing claws you miss out on some things. Claws have the highest sustained DPS of any scrapper set by a moderate margin. However, it has the lowest burst DPS by a moderate margin too (with dark being close in both areas).
In pvp this hurts claws due to how much jousting goes on and how easy it is to kill a foe (depending on zone) in 10-15 seconds of fighting. PvP makes Burst > Sustained... a flaw with pvp design for balance I would vote yes, but debatable.
Now having brutes build fury right, they are going to want to stay fighting as long as possible. This plays to claws strength... sustained DPS. See fury builds best in sustained fighting, so it plays to claws strength. So a claws vs. a brute is actually a good match up as they both have similar goals.
So why the notion quicker attacks = more fury = more gimped claws is logical, it only looks at part of the picture. The other part is more PvP is jousting = less sustained dps ability = claws is weak. Now when we combine this we get more fury for brutes, but we also get an environment that resembles sustained conditions making claws do better as well on offense.
The reason why so many people may be jumping all over your comments, and myself, is that they are based on misinformation and/or a misunderstanding of the effects of the change. Further at the very least I believe, sure others do to, that the devs actually listen to the boards and read them. To the extent that they change the game radically based on them: NO. To the extent it ways on their thoughts: YES. My fear of posts like this is not that the devs would not fix fury... once they did an analysis they would see without doubt it should be fixed. My fear is it will put them on the side of caution. Fury has been broke since CoV came out. If your comments, in combination with others like it, make the devs rethink fixing fury, just to delay it for even a month longer, especially being based on misunderstandings, would be upsetting at best, given that it has been broken since launch.
I've played a brute in SC and i've smashed a team of 5. It REALLY helps that the player builds were all completely at a disadvantage. An elec blaster hit me for 7 damage, 2 kinetics try to slow me..etc, i build my fury and smash them. This is with broken fury, which is why i chose claws to go up against something it was at an extreme disadvantage against.
I've dueled brutes on my scrapper, and when i asked them how high their fury bar was, they reported it was at 80. Believe it or not this was after only a short amount of time, even with broken fury. I don't believe that claws would be at an advantage to joust a brute if they do no damage at all, so this would encourage people to pick sets that would, Ie: spines or ice.
I know the devs read the boards, most responding often deny it as they state "Omg powersets are sooo imbalanced because the devs don't care!! lol pvp!" Then when i say that we shouldn't put lesser sets at even more of a disadvantage "Omg blasphemer! Boil him in oil! Witch hunt guys!"
The devs would not rethink fixing fury.Clearly they know more than i do about the numbers side of this game, they only need explain how it's being balanced so that my question is answered. You did this, this is why i stopped. Noone else had done this because they are incapable of answering the question, they can't refute my concern, so they twist my words to gain ground.
The devs would not delay a fury fix to annoy the people playing brutes, i know that for a fact.
Silverspar, it's funny you're saying i'm the one who can't read what you say. It's also funny that you say you've deleted your stalker...the primary was claws right? Guess there was too much pwnage going on there.
Manchu, if you're trying not to understand what i'm saying, it doesn't matter how i state it, and that's what you were all trying to do.
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I've played a brute in SC and i've smashed a team of 5. It REALLY helps that the player builds were all completely at a disadvantage. An elec blaster hit me for 7 damage, 2 kinetics try to slow me..etc, i build my fury and smash them. This is with broken fury, which is why i chose claws to go up against something it was at an extreme disadvantage against.
[/ QUOTE ]This is hardly believable unless you were being attacked by mobs or they were actually meleeing you, instead of jumping around.
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I've dueled brutes on my scrapper, and when i asked them how high their fury bar was, they reported it was at 80. Believe it or not this was after only a short amount of time, even with broken fury.
[/ QUOTE ]Now this is where I know it stinks. Only after a short time? 1v1 duels? Umm, not likely. I've fought scrappers in one on one, it takes nearly a minute to build fury to 80, and this I know considering this is generally when double rage kicks in for me after hasten. Short amount of time, are you relatively guessing or something? And this is only because they stand there and let me hit them. If they are jumping around it ain't happening.
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Silverspar, it's funny you're saying i'm the one who can't read what you say. It's also funny that you say you've deleted your stalker...the primary was claws right? Guess there was too much pwnage going on there.
[/ QUOTE ]Qutie the contrary, my stalker had 600 rep points by the time I stopped playing the stalker and rolled the brute, wasn't a matter of ownage was a matter I didn't like the AT. You still have no clue what you are talking about, and it shows heavily. Now stop trying to bang your chest, with false information. Oh, and yes, she wa a claws.
Avid Pvper here that specializes in mainly corruptors. Just wanted to pop in this thread and tell my fellow villain brothers and sisters that this fix is well deserved and look forward to seeing many more brutes in the zones fighting along side me.
Perhaps this change will give brutes more incentive to pick up taunt to help protect their support. No hero is ever going to build up your fury when there is a nice squishy corruptor to beat on (trust me I know). Kudos to you brutes that already do have it. You are a joy to team with and it makes my job of supporting you a little easier.
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I've played a brute in SC and i've smashed a team of 5. It REALLY helps that the player builds were all completely at a disadvantage. An elec blaster hit me for 7 damage, 2 kinetics try to slow me..etc, i build my fury and smash them. This is with broken fury, which is why i chose claws to go up against something it was at an extreme disadvantage against.
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Okay, We're going to need some more info on this one.
1. What type of brute were you playing?
2. What was the entire team makeup of this team of 5? You've sited 2 Defenders and a Blaster, where are the other 2 you beatdown?
3. Did you pop your tier 9 and then dive in the zone? I could see you taking on a bunch of heroes then.
4. Did you check those Heroe's levels? I've kicked around a few heroes almost effortlessly as well, only to notice that they weren't even in level range for SOs! Killed my "I'm teh winnar!" buzz almost instantly.
5. Lets assume you were playing /electric(i'm going by your "An elec blaster hit me for 7 damage". You said you had 2 /kin's hitting you with Siphon Speed. That should've slowed your run speed to a crawl. Lightning Reflexes(assuming your /electric and you took it) only protects from ONE slow. You could sprint around with Snowstorm on you all day until you accidentally come to close to a pile of caltrops. Then suddenly you're slowed to a crawl.
6. Were you on a team as well or did you do this solo? Did you have any outside buffs on you? Did you pop inspirations? What temp powers did you make use of?
7. What was the general population of the zone? Did it favor Heroes or Villains? Who knows? You could've been so blinded by "I just SMASHED 5 heroes!" that you didn't notice that the group of stalkers following you around took out 4/5 of the team.
8. Was your build Spec'd for PvP? What level were YOU when you accomplished this feat? What powersets were you? All I can assume is ???/Elec and then again I might be wrong.
You don't have to answer all those questions or even any of them if you don't want to, I'm just curious how you, as a brute, managed to do that to a team of 5 HEROES(not Villains in WARBURG. Heroes in Siren's Call.) I look forward to your reply on this.
Claws? *Shivers* Everytime I think of a Claws stalker I think of Red Wraith in Warburg. She is pure EVIL. EEEVVILLL!!!!!
/em Fetalposition
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5. Lets assume you were playing /electric(i'm going by your "An elec blaster hit me for 7 damage". You said you had 2 /kin's hitting you with Siphon Speed. That should've slowed your run speed to a crawl. Lightning Reflexes(assuming your /electric and you took it) only protects from ONE slow. You could sprint around with Snowstorm on you all day until you accidentally come to close to a pile of caltrops. Then suddenly you're slowed to a crawl.
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If he's a jumper, it's a lot harder for people to slow him, even without LR. Heck, it's aggrivating for my ice/cold corr to slow jumpers (with just snowstorm and infrigate and my blasts anyways, not really slotted for slows).
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Qutie the contrary, my stalker had 600 rep points by the time I ........
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Uh.....Cap for rep is 400. How do you get 6?
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Qutie the contrary, my stalker had 600 rep points by the time I ........
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Uh.....Cap for rep is 400. How do you get 6?
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Typo? *shrugs shoulders*
True but I also said runspeed! HA!
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I've played a brute in SC and i've smashed a team of 5. It REALLY helps that the player builds were all completely at a disadvantage. An elec blaster hit me for 7 damage, 2 kinetics try to slow me..etc, i build my fury and smash them. This is with broken fury, which is why i chose claws to go up against something it was at an extreme disadvantage against.
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Okay, We're going to need some more info on this one.
1. What type of brute were you playing?
2. What was the entire team makeup of this team of 5? You've sited 2 Defenders and a Blaster, where are the other 2 you beatdown?
3. Did you pop your tier 9 and then dive in the zone? I could see you taking on a bunch of heroes then.
4. Did you check those Heroe's levels? I've kicked around a few heroes almost effortlessly as well, only to notice that they weren't even in level range for SOs! Killed my "I'm teh winnar!" buzz almost instantly.
5. Lets assume you were playing /electric(i'm going by your "An elec blaster hit me for 7 damage". You said you had 2 /kin's hitting you with Siphon Speed. That should've slowed your run speed to a crawl. Lightning Reflexes(assuming your /electric and you took it) only protects from ONE slow. You could sprint around with Snowstorm on you all day until you accidentally come to close to a pile of caltrops. Then suddenly you're slowed to a crawl.
6. Were you on a team as well or did you do this solo? Did you have any outside buffs on you? Did you pop inspirations? What temp powers did you make use of?
7. What was the general population of the zone? Did it favor Heroes or Villains? Who knows? You could've been so blinded by "I just SMASHED 5 heroes!" that you didn't notice that the group of stalkers following you around took out 4/5 of the team.
8. Was your build Spec'd for PvP? What level were YOU when you accomplished this feat? What powersets were you? All I can assume is ???/Elec and then again I might be wrong.
You don't have to answer all those questions or even any of them if you don't want to, I'm just curious how you, as a brute, managed to do that to a team of 5 HEROES(not Villains in WARBURG. Heroes in Siren's Call.) I look forward to your reply on this.
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Nerf! Nerf! Nerf!
*runs in the room waving a whiffle bat wildly*
Where's he at?
Kill Skuls