Sniktch

Problem found....and ironically, it wasn't anything anyone - including myself - had been looking at. My modem/router was spinning up to a terminal failure - but regular net surfing wasn't pulling enough bandwidth to show issues, whereas CoX WAS, especially during combat. It died early Monday, and was just replaced yesterday(Real Life reared its ugly head, else I'd have reported such at the time). Thanks to all for the attempted help, and yay for massively coincidental timing :/

Firewall: Windows Firewall is running, but I've put an exception in for CoX - and I never had a problem until the servermerge patch, which AFAIK would not screw with Windows Firewall settings.

Prefer max prformance: No effect.

Updated sound drivers. Safe mode. Cranked graphics to nil, and killed every non-Windows process I could find. End result: back to hanging during character load-in.

Lowering graphics: cranking them to "stick figures and blobs" level doesn't affect it in the slightest.

Steam: I usually do have it killed, as well as EADM and all other bandwidth grabbers. When I made the HijackThis, I'd been in the middle of a grand string of crashes, and flat out didn't bother killing processes every time, primarily due to frustration level.

Will give Safe mode a try, am currently trying to figure out which package I'm supposed to use from Realtek, as they've got 2 available...and no details on either, and will axe Stardock again.

Also, thanks for actually taking the time to try and help.

So, after almost 2 days of complete and utter silence from the "helpful" folks on this forum, I took the nuclear option and reinstalled the game. Result: Managed to have the crash not happen until after a couple of spawns. I've run Windows system repair, I've checked my memory, I've tried other games to see if it's just a CoX thing or not(and it IS just a CoX thing - hell, even Fallout 3 heavily modded runs stable right now), I've done everything I can think of apart from buying a new ******* computer again. before server merge patch: fine. Post server merge patch: try to use the game as a game rather than a graphics-intensive chat program, and crash. Every. Single. Time. Does ANYONE have a clue, a hint, a tip - hell, I'd take a ******* RAINDANCE right now if it'd work.

And one more Windows report:

Problem Event Name: AppHangB1
Application Name: cityofheroes.exe
Application Version: 1.0.0.1
Application Timestamp: 4dbf38ca
Hang Signature: 9137
Hang Type: 0
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.768.3
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Hang Signature 1: 913756305d2271dce0e5bb23ebfe4a49
Additional Hang Signature 2: 02ff
Additional Hang Signature 3: 02ffbe226f30d2755f41bcd2bc3983a8
Additional Hang Signature 4: 9137
Additional Hang Signature 5: 913756305d2271dce0e5bb23ebfe4a49
Additional Hang Signature 6: 02ff
Additional Hang Signature 7: 02ffbe226f30d2755f41bcd2bc3983a8

Further info: The Windows "problem details" of the crash.


Problem Event Name: AppHangB1
Application Name: cityofheroes.exe
Application Version: 1.0.0.1
Application Timestamp: 4dbf38ca
Hang Signature: 9137
Hang Type: 0
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.768.3
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Hang Signature 1: 913756305d2271dce0e5bb23ebfe4a49
Additional Hang Signature 2: 02ff
Additional Hang Signature 3: 02ffbe226f30d2755f41bcd2bc3983a8
Additional Hang Signature 4: 9137
Additional Hang Signature 5: 913756305d2271dce0e5bb23ebfe4a49
Additional Hang Signature 6: 02ff
Additional Hang Signature 7: 02ffbe226f30d2755f41bcd2bc3983a8

And a second one:


Problem Event Name: AppHangB1
Application Name: cityofheroes.exe
Application Version: 1.0.0.1
Application Timestamp: 4dbf38ca
Hang Signature: 81e8
Hang Type: 0
OS Version: 6.1.7601.2.1.0.768.3
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Hang Signature 1: 81e8cd2aeef26f1b61919df73c0f3f5a
Additional Hang Signature 2: e2bc
Additional Hang Signature 3: e2bc6a8831dbc9b38d4173114cfa7da9
Additional Hang Signature 4: 81e8
Additional Hang Signature 5: 81e8cd2aeef26f1b61919df73c0f3f5a
Additional Hang Signature 6: e2bc
Additional Hang Signature 7: e2bc6a8831dbc9b38d4173114cfa7da9

I note that the Locale IDs match - honestly not sure what that means, as I'm not a tech guru, but I'm hoping that it's not RAM-related, as this is a fairly new computer.

Details:

The crash is a hang, and it either occurs on the loading screen after character selection - music/SFX keep going, screen freezes, and cursor turns into the Windows swirly "I'm thinking" one, or if I attempt combat, within 2-3 enemies at most, it hangs, freezing mid-frame, but "non-active" SFX keep running - IE, if I let it stay hung in midfight, I DON'T hear more shooting/punching etc., just the ambient sounds of the particular map. It has also happened twice during non-combat situations, apparently just through time accrued. When the hang hits, Alt-Tab ceases to work; I have to crtl-alt-delete to Task manager and close CoX that way. I did not have this issue on Monday. I did have it on Friday, and I just updated my vidcard drivers today. One friend noted that this sounds like an "active memory" issue - memleak?

HijackThis log:

Logfile of Trend Micro HijackThis v2.0.4
Scan saved at 3:33:31 PM, on 5/14/2011
Platform: Windows 7 SP1 (WinNT 6.00.3505)
MSIE: Internet Explorer v8.00 (8.00.7601.17514)
Boot mode: Normal

Running processes:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Dell DataSafe Local Backup\COMPONENTS\SCHEDULER\STSERVICE.EXE
C:\Program Files (x86)\Dell DataSafe Local Backup\Components\DSUpdate\DSUpd.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Dell DataSafe Local Backup\Toaster.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Intel Matrix Storage Manager\IAAnotif.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\Steam.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Vtune\TBPANEL.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Intel(R) Rapid Storage Technology\IAStorIcon.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Roxio\Roxio Burn\RoxioBurnLauncher.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Java\Java Update\jusched.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Webroot\Security\Current\Framework\WRTray.ex e
C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Media Player\wmplayer.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Mozilla Firefox\firefox.exe
C:\Program Files (x86)\Mozilla Firefox\plugin-container.exe
C:\Users\Jason\Downloads\HijackThis.exe

R1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Default_Page_URL = http://g.msn.com/USCON/1
R1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Page = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=54896
R0 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Start Page = http://g.msn.com/USCON/1
R1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Default_Page_URL = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=69157
R1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Default_Search_URL = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=54896
R1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Page = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=54896
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Start Page = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=69157
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Search,SearchAssistant =
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Search,CustomizeSearch =
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Local Page = C:\Windows\SysWOW64\blank.htm
R0 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Toolbar,LinksFolderName =
F2 - REG:system.ini: UserInit=userinit.exe
O2 - BHO: AcroIEHelperStub - {18DF081C-E8AD-4283-A596-FA578C2EBDC3} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Adobe\Acrobat\ActiveX\AcroIEHelperShim.dll
O2 - BHO: Windows Live ID Sign-in Helper - {9030D464-4C02-4ABF-8ECC-5164760863C6} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\Windows Live\WindowsLiveLogin.dll
O2 - BHO: Java(tm) Plug-In 2 SSV Helper - {DBC80044-A445-435b-BC74-9C25C1C588A9} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Java\jre6\bin\jp2ssv.dll
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [IAStorIcon] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Intel(R) Rapid Storage Technology\IAStorIcon.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [Adobe Reader Speed Launcher] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe\Reader 9.0\Reader\Reader_sl.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [Dell Registration] "C:\Program Files (x86)\System Registration\prodreg.exe" /boot
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [RoxWatchTray] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Roxio Shared\OEM\12.0\SharedCOM\RoxWatchTray12OEM.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [Desktop Disc Tool] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Roxio\Roxio Burn\RoxioBurnLauncher.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [SunJavaUpdateSched] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Java\Java Update\jusched.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [WebrootTrayApp] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Webroot\Security\Current\Framework\WRTray.ex e"
O4 - HKLM\..\RunOnce: ["C:\Program Files (x86)\Dell DataSafe Local Backup\Components\DSUpdate\DSUpdate.exe"] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Dell DataSafe Local Backup\Components\DSUpdate\DSUpdate.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\RunOnce: [Launcher] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Dell DataSafe Local Backup\Components\Scheduler\Launcher.exe"
O4 - HKCU\..\Run: [EADM] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Electronic Arts\EADM\EADMUI.exe"
O4 - HKCU\..\Run: [Steam] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\Steam.exe" -silent
O4 - HKCU\..\Run: [TBPanel] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Vtune\TBPanel.exe" /A
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-19\..\Run: [Sidebar] %ProgramFiles%\Windows Sidebar\Sidebar.exe /autoRun (User 'LOCAL SERVICE')
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-19\..\RunOnce: [mctadmin] C:\Windows\System32\mctadmin.exe (User 'LOCAL SERVICE')
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-20\..\Run: [Sidebar] %ProgramFiles%\Windows Sidebar\Sidebar.exe /autoRun (User 'NETWORK SERVICE')
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-20\..\RunOnce: [mctadmin] C:\Windows\System32\mctadmin.exe (User 'NETWORK SERVICE')
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-21-587740441-542434012-2501574828-1001\..\Run: [Sidebar] %ProgramFiles%\Windows Sidebar\Sidebar.exe /autoRun (User 'UpdatusUser')
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-21-587740441-542434012-2501574828-1001\..\RunOnce: [mctadmin] C:\Windows\System32\mctadmin.exe (User 'UpdatusUser')
O4 - S-1-5-21-587740441-542434012-2501574828-1001 User Startup: Best Buy pc app.lnk = C:\ProgramData\Best Buy pc app\ClickOnceSetup.exe (User 'UpdatusUser')
O4 - S-1-5-21-587740441-542434012-2501574828-1001 User Startup: Dell Dock First Run.lnk = C:\Program Files\Dell\DellDock\DellDock.exe (User 'UpdatusUser')
O4 - .DEFAULT User Startup: Best Buy pc app.lnk = C:\ProgramData\Best Buy pc app\ClickOnceSetup.exe (User 'Default user')
O4 - .DEFAULT User Startup: Dell Dock First Run.lnk = C:\Program Files\Dell\DellDock\DellDock.exe (User 'Default user')
O4 - Startup: Dell Dock.lnk = C:\Program Files\Dell\DellDock\DellDock.exe
O4 - Startup: desktop (1).ini
O4 - Global Startup: desktop (1).ini
O4 - Global Startup: Digital Line Detect.lnk = C:\Program Files (x86)\Digital Line Detect\DLG.exe
O9 - Extra button: @C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Live\Writer\WindowsLiveWriterShortcuts.dll,-1004 - {219C3416-8CB2-491a-A3C7-D9FCDDC9D600} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Live\Writer\WriterBrowserExtension.dll
O9 - Extra 'Tools' menuitem: @C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Live\Writer\WindowsLiveWriterShortcuts.dll,-1003 - {219C3416-8CB2-491a-A3C7-D9FCDDC9D600} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Live\Writer\WriterBrowserExtension.dll
O10 - Unknown file in Winsock LSP: c:\program files (x86)\common files\microsoft shared\windows live\wlidnsp.dll
O10 - Unknown file in Winsock LSP: c:\program files (x86)\common files\microsoft shared\windows live\wlidnsp.dll
O16 - DPF: {C1F8FC10-E5DB-4112-9DBF-6C3FF728D4E3} (DellSystemLite.Scanner) - http://support.dell.com/systemprofil...SystemLite.CAB
O18 - Protocol: wlpg - {E43EF6CD-A37A-4A9B-9E6F-83F89B8E6324} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Live\Photo Gallery\AlbumDownloadProtocolHandler.dll
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\Alg.exe,-112 (ALG) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\alg.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Dock Login Service (DockLoginService) - Stardock Corporation - C:\Program Files\Dell\DellDock\DockLogin.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\efssvc.dll,-100 (EFS) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\fxsresm.dll,-118 (Fax) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\fxssvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: GoToAssist - Citrix Online, a division of Citrix Systems, Inc. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Citrix\GoToAssist\615\g2aservice.exe
O23 - Service: Intel(R) Matrix Storage Event Monitor (IAANTMON) - Intel Corporation - C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Intel Matrix Storage Manager\IAANTMon.exe
O23 - Service: Intel(R) Rapid Storage Technology (IAStorDataMgrSvc) - Intel Corporation - C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Intel(R) Rapid Storage Technology\IAStorDataMgrSvc.exe
O23 - Service: @keyiso.dll,-100 (KeyIso) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @comres.dll,-2797 (MSDTC) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\msdtc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\System32\netlogon.dll,-102 (Netlogon) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: NVIDIA Driver Helper Service (NVSvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\nvvsvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: NVIDIA Update Service Daemon (nvUpdatusService) - NVIDIA Corporation - C:\Program Files (x86)\NVIDIA Corporation\NVIDIA Updatus\daemonu.exe
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\psbase.dll,-300 (ProtectedStorage) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: RoxMediaDB12OEM - Sonic Solutions - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Roxio Shared\OEM\12.0\SharedCOM\RoxMediaDB12OEM.exe
O23 - Service: Roxio Hard Drive Watcher 12 (RoxWatch12) - Sonic Solutions - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Roxio Shared\OEM\12.0\SharedCOM\RoxWatch12OEM.exe
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\Locator.exe,-2 (RpcLocator) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\locator.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\samsrv.dll,-1 (SamSs) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: SoftThinks Agent Service (SftService) - SoftThinks SAS - C:\Program Files (x86)\Dell DataSafe Local Backup\sftservice.EXE
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\snmptrap.exe,-3 (SNMPTRAP) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\snmptrap.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\spoolsv.exe,-1 (Spooler) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\spoolsv.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\sppsvc.exe,-101 (sppsvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\sppsvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Steam Client Service - Valve Corporation - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Steam\SteamService.exe
O23 - Service: NVIDIA Stereoscopic 3D Driver Service (Stereo Service) - NVIDIA Corporation - C:\Program Files (x86)\NVIDIA Corporation\3D Vision\nvSCPAPISvr.exe
O23 - Service: stllssvr - MicroVision Development, Inc. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\SureThing Shared\stllssvr.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\ui0detect.exe,-101 (UI0Detect) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\UI0Detect.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\vaultsvc.dll,-1003 (VaultSvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\vds.exe,-100 (vds) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\vds.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\vssvc.exe,-102 (VSS) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\vssvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\Wat\WatUX.exe,-601 (WatAdminSvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\Wat\WatAdminSvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\wbengine.exe,-104 (wbengine) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\wbengine.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Webroot Spy Sweeper Engine (WebrootSpySweeperService) - Webroot Software, Inc. (www.webroot.com) - C:\Program Files (x86)\Webroot\Security\current\plugins\antimalware \AEI.exe
O23 - Service: @%Systemroot%\system32\wbem\wmiapsrv.exe,-110 (wmiApSrv) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\wbem\WmiApSrv.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%PROGRAMFILES%\Windows Media Player\wmpnetwk.exe,-101 (WMPNetworkSvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Media Player\wmpnetwk.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Webroot Client Service (WRConsumerService) - Webroot Software, Inc. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Webroot\Security\Current\Framework\WRConsume rService.exe

--
End of file - 11153 bytes

CoHHelper log:
---System information gathered by CoH Helper version 0.2.0.2---

DxDiag gathered at May 14, 2011 15:31 (-04:00)
Operating System: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit (6.1, Build 7601) Service Pack 1 (7601.win7sp1_gdr.110408-1631)
System Manufacturer: Dell Inc.
System Model: Inspiron 560
BIOS: Default System BIOS
Central Processor: Pentium(R) Dual-Core CPU E5800 @ 3.20GHz (2 CPUs), ~3.2GHz
Memory: 3072MB
.Net Memory Report: 1831MB out of 3070MB available
Page File: 4232MB (1907MB currently in use)
C Drive: (ST3500418AS) 284798MB out of 465756MB (61%) free
Q Drive: () zero-size drive
D Drive: (TSSTcorp DVD+-RW TS-H653G) zero-size drive
Windows directory location: C:\Windows
DirectX: DirectX 11
DirectX Diag version: 6.01.7601.17514 (64-bit version)

Display Notes: No problems found.
Sound Notes: No problems found.
Input Notes: No problems found.

Monitor:
Monitor's Max Resolution: (blank)
Video Device Name: NVIDIA GeForce GT 440
Manufacturer / Chip: NVIDIA / GeForce GT 440
Video Memory: 2272 MB
Driver Version: 8.17.12.7061
Driver Date: 4/8/2011 1:14:00 AM
Driver Language: English

Sound Device Description: Speakers (Realtek High Definition Audio)
Driver File: RTKVHD64.sys
Driver Version: 6.00.0001.5963
Driver Date: 10/20/2009 6:55:12 PM


WMI Information
Motherboard Manufacturer: Dell Inc.
Motherboard Model: (empty)
Motherboard Product: 018D1Y
Motherboard Version: A00
BIOS Manufacturer: Dell Inc.
BIOS Name: Default System BIOS
BIOS Version: DELL - 20101201
BIOS Release: 20101201000000.000000+000


Registry Information for Current User
Resolution: 1152x864
3D Resolution: 1152x864 (Not using renderscale)
Full Screen: Yes
Maximized: No
Screen Position: 0, 0
Refresh Rate: 0Hz
Vertical Sync Enabled: Yes


Physics Quality: High
Maximum Particles: 50000
Max Particle Fill? 10.000
Physics Card Enabled: No


Anti-aliasing: Off
Anisotropic Filtering: 4x
Texture LOD Bias: Smooth
Water Effects: High quality
Bloom: 1.000 (turned on)
Depth of Field Enabled: Yes
Desaturation Effects (Sepia) Enabled: Yes
Shader Detail: High


World Texture Level: Very High
Character Texture Level: Very High
World Detail Level (Vis_Scale): 1.000
Entity Detail Level: 1.000
Shadows Enabled: No
Shadow Mode: Shadow maps
Shadow Map Shader: Low quality
Environmental Reflections: Low quality
Advanced Occlusion Settings: No
Ambient Occlusion: High performance
Occlusion Strength: Slight
Blur: Fast
Ambient Resolution: High performance


Gamma Correction: 0.503
Geometry Buffers (VBOs) Enabled: Yes
Suppression of FX When Camera Close Enabled: No
Close Suppression Range: 3.000
Show Advertisements: Yes

Audio Mode: Performance
3D Audio: No
FX Sound Volume: 0.036
Music Sound Volume: 0.000

Show Advanced Graphics Options: No
Overall Graphics Quality: 0.750
Reverse Mouse Buttons: No
Save Login Username: Yes
Transfer Rate: Unknown bytes/second
Current Game Version: 1950.201102230015.1.0
Installation Directory: C:\Program Files (x86)\NCsoft\City of Heroes

At the least, "before the [censored] patch went Live so discussion might have had an effect on the distribution" was suggested by his wording...given it's Live and he's nowhere to be seen - as are any patch notes since Jan. 22 for people who think the "patch notes" button on the launcher should, y'know, take you to the MOST RECENT PATCH notes - anyone else wanting to see a Dev barbecue right now?

Suggestion:

Allow a Founder-rank player/character/account to flag a Supergroup base as "NON-RAID". The effect of this flag is as follows:

Disable all raid-pathing calculation.

Raid button disabled.

Cannot purchase Raid Teleporter, and if one is in-plot, it is destroyed with no refund.

Cathedral Of Pain is disabled on the Mission Computer/Oracle.

Deflagging the base would immediately reactivate all "normal" functions, and if raid-pathing is blocked, would immediately delete all items blocking pathing, with no refund.

Why: Because the raid-pathing system is incredibly annoying as-is, especially for SGs that have NO plans to raid or be raided, ever. Cut the tie, let US worry about our aesthetic sense and pathing, and we can stop having to fight with a system that won't let us put a freaking office chair in front of a "raidable" computer bank.

Interesting that you have this as one of the earliest lines in this -


[ QUOTE ]
If you haven't been to the game's PVP zones, I urge you to go. At its best, it's a blast,

[/ QUOTE ]

this is your sig,

[ QUOTE ]
Up there the world is divided into suckers. Make your choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

and you mention nothing about the level of jerk-play you are likely to run into in PvP in the guide itself. Perhaps you should include a nice section on "And by the way, here are the many and varied methods folks will abuse, harass, mistreat, and generally be [censored] to you, not to win, but merely to kill your fun as fast as possible as often as possible"?

[ QUOTE ]

PvP IS all that and a bag of chips. Streetfighter? Mortal Combat? Sports games? Halo? Those are all examples of player vs. player games.


[/ QUOTE ]

...except that Streetfighter, MK, Madden, Halo, et. al. can also be played strictly PvE, and it is in fact impossible to "win" the game PvP-wise. Beat 1000 other players, and the game won't care a whit.

That depends entirely on your viewpoint, and given your sig, your viewpoint is quite opposed to mine.

Yes, including PvP works...I never argued that. Then again, just because something works doesn't mean it's the ONE TRUE AND ONLY WAY! that it can work. Tallow candles worked. Yet we use filament lightbulbs and electricity. Filament bulbs work, yet we're moving to flourescent bulbs.

Just because it always has worked doesn't mean it's the only way to do it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A MMO needs several things to be successful. PvP is a PART if that equation. It is not the main or the largest part of the equation though. If that was the case, most PvPers would not be here, they would be in WoW, or Fury, or Planetside, or DAoC. They would be were the PvP was polished and good. That tells me there is more to a game than PvP...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you look at this thread from beginning to end, you'll see it is a response to people that want the game to have no PVP at all. The fact still stands that the only "PVE only" MMORPG to successfully run is Disney's Toontown Online and that's geared for pre teens and bought by parents that subscribe to the Disney advertising Machine.

Everything you said in your post was already debated in the first 30 pages. The only side your supporting here is the shreaking lunies that want pvp completely removed from this MMORPG and every other MMORPG so the can grind in peace before quiting because they don't understand why they are bored.

Every MMORPG needs player based content. PVE takes months to write and a weekend to finish. There is no way for a gaming company to keep up with the demands of a PVE only base. That's why vast majority of every PVE player bases quit in 6-8 months of joining a game. NCSoft's business model is actually built to cycle players into multiple games to account for this business trend, with the motto: "Imagine the Next Life. Build the Next Game. Create the Next Culture."


The PVE only crowd wants to kill the Goose that laid the golden egg. Your guilty of being another person not looking at what the debate really is and simply saying what you feel from an impression.

You have posed on the side that has actively opposed game balance and has actively harassed PVPers in their own forums. Your impression of PVPers in COX is a chicken and the egg thing. After being openly harassed on there own forums for since 2005, in a manner that wouldn't be tolerated on any other boards in these forums, I no longer ask questions why they are hostile in game or on the boards.

Your only crime was not paying attention to the real focus of the thread and everyone does that from time to time. Luckly this isn't an enviroment where there were real longterm consequences for that, other than a game that continues not to be balanced and continues to lose people in droves because the end game content is defective due to not being balanced.

In the end most of the hatred of PVP in this game comes from the fact that most people's toons are not going to be as useful as a few toons spec'ed in very specfic ways. That is a game design flaw.

In the end, for both heroes and villains, every toon should be viable in PVP. Since I don't like nerfs, I'd go with Villain Arena fixes exactly mimicing the ones given to heroes, adding APP selections to PPP lists, and balancing the base power indexes to making Villain toons competitive. For both sides, each AT could use about 5 more powers in each powerset that are useful for PVP if it is currently cosidered a PVE build or is useful for PVE if it is currently a PVP build.


Don't rip any one group down. It's actually possible to build everyone up.


Give players an even shot and mix up the predictable builds you see these days. The player base will never be what it would have been if this game had been balanced from the beginning, but it could be a lot better.

More game content for the RP and PVE communities wouldn't be bad either, especially if it could be more player driven content. The point of this thread from the beginning was to seek a better game for everyone and dispel the thought that any section was disposible. No community of gamers is.

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Let me see if i can sum up my stance on PvP - and I'm a known hater:

I don't give two tin [censored] if YOU enjoy it or not. Want your little sandbox? FINE. Here it is, take it, keep it, stay in it, and stay the hell away from me. What I want is simple: to not be penalized for saying no to PvP, to not be constantly poked and prodded towards PvP, and for all PvE content to be 100% accessible without ever needing PvP or a specific team.

IE, Villain Accolades are currently a "penalty for not PvPing" situation on half of them. The constant "go talk to this PvP zone intro dude" missions and the poor hackjob of leveraging folks to farm for Salvage in PvP zones (because you either outlevel the range it's in or there is a severe dearth of Magic foes at a specific level range - see Cap Au Diable for a perfect example of the latter) are examples of the pokeprod. The RSF, occasionally the STF, and PTOD Elite Bosses for Dominators are an example of the last point.

In short, I don't care if there is or is not PvP in CoX, as long as I don't have to see it, smell it, or touch it to play everything ELSE in CoX.

On to other points:

Laylyn, you keep pointing out that there are no MMOs other than Toontown that have been PvE-only and successful...let me ask this, how many PvE-ONLY MMOs other than Toontown have there BEEN? I honestly cannot think of one AT ALL, and this is part of why I think there are problems with the "MMO must have PvP to succeed" paradigm; EQ was the granddady, and it had PvP available. Everyone else has just done what humans do: follow what's worked once.

And it's interesting to me that only one person has actually mentioned Diablo 2 so far; the game was in fact almost 100% PvE, with ZERO PvP support available from the devstaff, reward limited to an ear and whatever gold they dropped(unless the PKer was trying for corpsepopping, in which case, they're a griefer...), and the absolute ability to avoid all PvP ever(by passwording games). Given that D2 can be seen in may ways as a blueprint* for CoX, and D2 often had well over 150K people online all at once in its big time days, the "mostly PvE, unsupported PvP" model can work. I just don't know of anyone else that's put a big effort INTO it, because one thing online gaming has ALWAYS had is PvP.

It's become axiomatic..nobody makes an online game that doesn't have PvP because nobody has made an online game that doesn't have PvP. It started with BBS doorgames; I remember LORD. It had PvP from day 1. Yeah, you COULD find "non-PvP" games on those old clunkers...but they were all single-player. What I wonder is this: Why has there never been an actual PvE online FPS game with full co-op, with a campaign setting? The example that always springs to my mind is the MechWarrior games. They have a fairly beefy campaign for single-player, complete with being able to field up to two lances of AI Mechs at one time...but for online play, it's just deathmatch, deathmatch, deathmatch. Why not allow multiplayer in the SP campaign? Hell, why not DESIGN for it? Running some of those missions with non-AI lancemates could be great fun. But nobody has ever made a truly focused online PvE FPS like that, ever...and it's because of the axiom. Nobody does it because nobody HAS done it, so it's unproven. Unproven is assumed to be unprofitable...so it never GETS proven. WoW is just the last in a long line of this type of thought, given bulk and "weight" by dint of the Blizz name. If WoW wasn't Blizzard, it wouldn't be ten percent as successful as it is, PvP or not...count on it.


*Clarifying the blueprint comment: CoX is essentially Diablo 2 with costumes unhooked from gear, better graphics, and for a long time less loot. Each class/AT gets different skill trees/powersets to pick from, and once points are spent/powers are chosen, they're mostly locked into stone. D2 had the charstats in addition to the skilltrees; in CoX, this is basically handled by the devs having picked all your charpoints out ahead of time, and all of it goes into Vitality and Strength - Vitality is the HP increase, Strength is slots as a function of gear you can wear. CoX has respecs added, something Blizz added into WoW; the only reason it was never added into D2 was because the engine couldn't support it. Targeting is easier in CoX(sometimes, unless tabtargeting is wonky again today), and D2 had a harder to use interface...but in the end, CoX is a simplified, prettified D2.

Someone's gotta say it, so...

I told you so.

I9 was not ready for Live. The CH/BM servers needed more fortifying, and this proves it.

...For a CoH player, Man In Black is PvP-exclusive. That is what the listing Snow_Globe has designed means. For villains, it's PvE-capable, for heroes, it's PvP zone-required.

Quick note: Not everyone who missed arcs is a PLer, and the insinuation is insulting. Folks who team a LOT will miss most of their arcs. Also, the hollows, Croatoa, Striga, and Faultline are arcs, and can have been missed by players who simply STARTED before they were available...and those ones don't work like the rest; once you outlevel, there is NO WAY to access the arc.

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Theres another form of non-repeatable content in Co*, Badges. Plenty of these are story related, and are not allready used in Accolades. A reasonable additional vector for providing Type B drops.

Other potental ways Type B drops could be provided:
Mayhem/Safeguard Missions
Mayhem/Safeguard side mission.
Specialized contacts
Seasonal Events
Task Forces/Trials (Put in a hard to get accolade that opens up this option)
A new antagonist group (Whatever happened to that Batallion...)
"Glowies"

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Cool so far.


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PvP rewards

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Only if I get to deck you with a brick every five seconds for the rest of your life.


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Information Kiosks (Lead that totals board, and get a prize; that was the old plan, no?)



None of these need to be in place of Story Arcs, any (or all with low enough frequency) could be in addition to Arcs.

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Could work well, true. So long as *vomits* PvP is not the ONLY non-Arc method of acquisition.

Really, so long as there is a way for characters who've already passed stuff to either be given the drops they "should" have earned(granting via Souvenirs), or to "re-earn" them via some other method(the above list, and a plethora of other ideas), AND the Pool B rewards are NOT "OMGWTHBBQuhbahraerlewtz" that ALSO happen to be the most powerful of tools, then it should be OK. If Pool B stuff IS the "UBERLEWT" that such a massively limited system seems to imply...then it needs to be DRAMATICALLY changed. Diablo 2 had Pindleskinning for Stormspire. CoH doesn't need the equivalent.

<QR>

The most interesting thing is this...Arcanaville, you think that Nukes should not be balanced around use against a player...but Posi has gone ON RECORD that Nukes were DESIGNED from the start for Base Raids...PvP. And given that a buffcapped Shivan hitting a debuffed AV does almost 4x damage as an equally capped SS Brute hitting the same AV...I'm guessing they're balanced around the same ideal.

The main issues with Shivans in zone PvP would be limited mobility and poor AI...in a Base Raid or Arena match, that limited mobility will be likely to not matter, since EVERYONE gets much more limited mobility, and the AI issues would likely also evaporate, since EVERYTHING they can hit has value as a target. As I've stated before...have somebody Phase Shift/Invis/Hide their way to a generator room, and drop a Shivan; throw a rack of Nukes right after, and watch the lights go OUT. Yeah, you've just shot your bolt for the raid...and you've also taken all defenses offline, killed the rezrings, killed the porters, and possibly cost the opposing team a hefty chunk of Prestige and Salvage to boot. Two gennies? Two sneakers. They ARE balanced around PvP, to be able to take a player out FAST, or for antimateriel purposes. And since they're balanced to take harder-than-AV targets...anything lesser is a snack.

Tiredinnuendo: You are interpreting. This is a mistake. The bald, flat statement is this and ONLY this: "AVs are teamed content." Anything you choose to interpret, read into, surmise, or postulate due to the state of the game is mere speculation; the one single thing that DOES matter is this:

"AVs are teamed content." That, sir, is an explicit statement of policy. Is the policy followed properly? Not really. This does not end it being an explicit statement of policy, any more than a Bush signing statement means that the law he's trying to bork will be unenforced; it merely means that for whatever reason, the policy is not currently strictly enforced. The possible reasons for this are myriad - lack of dev time for such a "simple" codefix...and remember, _Castle_'s fix to Power Push took 3 patchcycles to make it live, even though it was literally a single conditional in standard use in other powers... or the given "you have insisted you want to be able to TRY, so we'll let you TRY" - and if this is the case, then a dose of paranoia WRT nerfs descending on AV-solo-capable combos would be indeed justified...let those who can break the game do so...then fix the break; in essentia, let min-maxers braid the rope, pick the tree, tie the knots, stick their head in the noose and grin big...the devs can do the little else that remains.

Or you could be correct, and the policy has been modified to "Avs are teamed content UNLESS you are a PvPer"...in which case it is an utterly bizzare line of distinction to draw, and patently unbalanced. Also consider: It is in fact POSSIBLE for a player to solo a Giant Monster with the proper sets and setup; it's not EASY, and requires a Radiation Emission powerset in the mix to counter the regen, and requires a way to get the GM to follow you along a drone-free path close enough to a contact for you to be able to purchase Inspirations from them, and likely a Shivan or four for damage output and nukes to buff damage so as to provide a chance of victory before the intended despawns...but it IS TECHNICALLY doable; the Kronos can be soloed if you can drag him up by Indigo and have some way to cut off his regen consistently - Rad - and can output enough damage to take him out before he despawns on his own - Shivanukes. Same with Deathsurge, same with Caleb, same with Jack and Eochai, same with the Paladin. If you're over level 30ish, same with Scrappy(only due to the minion horde).

So, Giant Monsters are expressly MULTI-team content...and can be soloed if you work hard enough to break the game. AVs are teamed content...and can be soloed if you work hard enough to break the game. To me, that speaks more of balance issues preventing the devs from being ABLE to enforce their vision on AVs and GMs, rather than their creating an arbitrary distinction that being a member of the PvP subcommunity is sufficient to allow you to do things directly counter to EXPRESS and EXPLICIT Dev intentions.

Of course, given the reactions I tend to recieve when I lay things out totally objectively and logically, I don't doubt the thread will soon die in flames.

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take it for what you will, but an all MM (that is their VG concept) VG beat it without shivans or nukes on Infinity. No doubt this will be ignored by a lot of people, but whatever, just spreading the word on their accomplishment to show something other than a corrupter+stone team or a nuke/shivan team can do it.

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I'd really like to hear from a mixed team that beat it, instead of extremes like 8 MMs or 1 brute + 6 corruptors + <charity slot>. I'm not discounting their accomplishment, but I'd really, really like some evidence that my SG, who will have a mixed bag with no radiation and definitely at least one dominator (if not 2), might actually have a shot at it without having to deal with PvP.

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Two points:

1. Every all-MM RSF I have read about DID in fact have and use Nukes and Shivans in quantity; the Freedom one's screenshot is VERY cluttered, but you can half-see one of the boogery snots in it.

2. No "non-stacked" team has yet beat the RSF without Nukes and Shivans to my knowledge. Kitten, if you have a link or screenie?

Actually, it's because one of the dev rules is that soloing an AV is supposed to be IMPOSSIBLE - PERIOD. Not with temps and insps, not without, just flat IMPOSSIBLE. It's one of the surest ways to call the nerfbat down... especially if someone brags about it.

Now, do I agree that Nukes and Shivans are broken PvE? Yep. Broken like Bush's foreign policy. But the problem is they're not broken PvP - where they're DESIGNED FOR. And nerfing them without rebalancing the RSF first is a bad move...since it's Shivanuke or OTT, or FAIL. I have a few ideas on how to fix at least PART of the problem. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Time to kabumpage with mine own Sigs!

Billy Boy: Revive clone. Becuse he just keeps getting UP.

Sniktch: ZZZZOOOOM! Click, +speed, recharge, recovery, regen. With Unstoppable's crash. Cuz he can overdrive for a bit.

Frostrose: Waverider. Think Lightning Rod, but with a DoT Ice Slick at the end.

Marci: The Mix. Serum clone...with Detonator finish.

Ssil: Cannibalize. Dead enemy target, heal, +END. She eats dead people.

Javier: The BBBOR. Think Exploding Arrow, with EMP Arrow's radius, and Inferno's damage, and Nova's KB. BOOM.

Trixie: Let's just say Pax_Arcana's character Medi-Lad already tested this one. Melee range [censored] damage hold.

Reggie: Demonic Release: Blaster Epic Force Of Nature clone, with a Rage-style Dam and Acc buff; two minutes and full Unstoppable crash. Release the BEAST!

Veronica: Weird Radiation Overload!: Toggle, Nox Gas with self-target.