Archery/Trick Arrows for I7
By
Alodarn,
Posted on: 2006-04-03 14:59 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I can't speak from a MM/TA standpoint but I keep hearing about how gimpy TA/A defenders are and I just don't see it. I love my TA/A defender and solo him frequently. He is not the most powerful defender I've played, but he's far from unplayable and my low to zero debt scores tell me he's not too shabby. My biggest complaints have been end cost (being addressed soon) and rate of fire (which will now be addressed). I don't mind the lower damage when the animation speed is increased. And he does hit more often than my dark or electric defenders so the natural accuracy bonus is doing something right. I don't think I'm especially skilled at the game either.
Some people also don't like that there are both the entangling arrow and the ice arrow, I don't see a problem with it. I love my entangling arrow, it recharges fast and I use it all the time when I solo. I string my targets along thanks to it. Ice arrow is for the big guys, it recharges slower, I can't have multiple targets stuck down with it. I use each for different things.
I think Trick Arrows and Archery are underrated and I think the changes being made are exactly the kinds of things I've been hoping for.
No, I'm not done with these sets, this was just a quick update while I was thinking about it.
'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.
Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.
Endurance costs. I did a pass on these a few weeks ago. I honestly don't remember which powers were changed at that time, but there were 2 or 3 that were the wrong cost. Trick Arrow is more problematic in this regard, and I've not looked at them yet.
I'll just be happy if Oil Slick doesn't cause my ninja pets to go crazy and run out of the blaze until it ends. It's a 'friendly fire'! 
I've reported this as a bug before.
The other problem is that the effect isnt strong enough on alot of the powers for a set with no heals and no buffs.
Flash arrow has less acc debuff than darks HEAL.
Disruption arrow has 2/3 the effect and 3x the recharge of tar patch as well as tar patch having a slow and being much earlier.
Glue arrow needs to be up more often.
Snap shot and Aimed shot need their damage increased if the animation cant be decreased.
The set still needs help.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Good news that you arent done sprucing the set up. Thanks for keeping us informed.
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In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked.
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WHAT? I LOVE Hawk the Slayer. The elf was awesome!! I'm still waiting for y'all to introduce a crossbow with a magazine clip!!!
-mb
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Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.
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The origin-specific temporary powers you get from levels 1 through 9 also do not cause weapon redraws (at least with bows and assault rifles, I haven't personally tested the others). Perhaps this happy accident could be reproduced? 
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'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.
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Aimed Shot looks very cool and the animation time isn't bad at all. Why can't you replace Blazing Arrow and Ice Arrow's animations with that?
It's all well and good to say "these animations look better," but you're missing the point: no one is playing these powersets. Who cares how good they look if they're nearly unplayable?
"She started dancin' to that fine, fine music,
Y'know, her life was saved by rock 'n' roll."
--The Velvet Underground
WHAT!!! 
I loved that Elf. He sparked alot of my Archer toons in AD&D. IMO, I thought it looked cool for the effects at that time. I dont know why they needed anyone else in that group, he could have done it all solo!! And the other poster was right. Get the magazine clip going. That was off the hook!!
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Aimed Shot looks very cool and the animation time isn't bad at all. Why can't you replace Blazing Arrow and Ice Arrow's animations with that?
It's all well and good to say "these animations look better," but you're missing the point: no one is playing these powersets.
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zing!
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If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked.
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The worst offending clip is where they had the actor jumping over a fallen tree while shooting his bow and repeated it over and over, and then spliced together several takes to try and make it look like he was jumping over the log while firing the bow lots of times. And it looks worse than it sounds.
The obvious reference point these days is Green Arrow in the recent JLU cartoon. And he ain't exactly quick on the draw.
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No, I'm not done with these sets, this was just a quick update while I was thinking about it.
'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.
Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.
Endurance costs. I did a pass on these a few weeks ago. I honestly don't remember which powers were changed at that time, but there were 2 or 3 that were the wrong cost. Trick Arrow is more problematic in this regard, and I've not looked at them yet.
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They need to get that out on DVD 
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Well, I think I see the problem. The issue here is that not only do you have a draw time on the weapon, you also have a draw time on the AMMO. Which is pretty much unique to Archery. It's probably the reason why it stopped being a military weapon after the development of machine guns.
But this is a superhero. Why can't we have a character like the one from Hawk the Slayer? (And yeah, I thought he was cool too) You don't have to go that fast with every attack, just make it for Snap Shot and a few others, so if you don't want to look that "silly", you can skip it.
Another suggestion would be to draw more than one arrow at a time, and fire them one by one. It would be more complicated to animate, but closer to modern "trick shot" archers in movies like Robin Hood. Or just have a couple of extra arrows in the hand holding the bow, next to the grip.
I don't know if it would be possible to change animation time like that, but it might actually be interesting, and give Archery a unique feel, if you could fire a succession of shots quickly, and then pause a second to "reload". Then again, if you just added a couple of arrows near the grip of the bow you might not need to animate them, their presence would be enough of a suggestion.
Failing that, since Archery is more about marksmanship than other Ranged sets, instead of more damage, how about a chance to Critical? It may step on Scrapper toes, but it's only one set, and would be the same for all levels of foes. (Thus not stepping on WHY the Scrapper has the ability to Critical)
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The obvious reference point these days is Green Arrow in the recent JLU cartoon. And he ain't exactly quick on the draw.
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I don't know, he was pretty fast when he was fighting those robbers in the store in his first appearance. And firing while moving. It's only when he stops to aim that he slows down a bit.
If he had to hit three targets in a row really fast, I'm sure Ollie could do it. Then again, he'd probably use Fistful of Arrows. But I'm sure he knows many tricks to help him speed up his shots, including the one I suggested.
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Aimed Shot looks very cool and the animation time isn't bad at all. Why can't you replace Blazing Arrow and Ice Arrow's animations with that?
It's all well and good to say "these animations look better," but you're missing the point: no one is playing these powersets.
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zing!
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Yep, your animations don't look too cool when your PuG laughs at you for picking the archery/arrow set.
I am curious about the bug with Oil Slick in PvP where it shows up as a friendly and can't be lit/targeted.
In any event, thanks for taking the time to address people's issues with this set, considering all the other stuff you have to do.
I can't wait for I7 now *squeeeeee*
Almost tempted to hold off playing my archer to get the full benefit of the changes
yeah well for those of you who dont know, go to http://www.badmovies.org/movies/hawkslayer/ and at the bottom is a movie. That shows the elf shooting, and the crappiness that "shootin real fast" will look like. Also flouresent bouncy balls as magical effects.
Wheeee my signature is terrible!
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In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.
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Would it be possible to stop some of the animations (particularly Snap Shot, Fistful of Arrows, and some of the debuffs) from rooting us instead? One of the defining characteristics of the archers from comics is that they're constantly moving, and firing while in motion--look at Speedy, for instance. TA/A already demands that we stay in motion to keep ourselves alive, so why not make it a feature of the sets? Not only would it improve the look and feel of the sets, it might help with the "Here I am, maul me!" problem we encounter while setting up debuffs.
I'd even quit complaining about how pathetically weak the accuracy bonus is compared to other secondary effects.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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No, I'm not done with these sets, this was just a quick update while I was thinking about it.
'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.
Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.
Endurance costs. I did a pass on these a few weeks ago. I honestly don't remember which powers were changed at that time, but there were 2 or 3 that were the wrong cost. Trick Arrow is more problematic in this regard, and I've not looked at them yet.
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Fair enough. Thank you for the explanation.
OMG I just watched the video, that is an overexaggeration if I've ever seen one. Taking the animation times down to more reasonable levels like 2 secs or even 1.67 or whatever is not going to make the set look stupid but it will make it perform better. I do like the posters idea about shooting on the run though, that would be acceptable as well, especially since no one can do it through ww anymore.
I agree about the recharge issues, could you do a pass on that as well?
Compare say:
glue arrow to lingering radiation.
disruption arrow to tar patch or freezing rain
For some reason, perhaps due to stacking issues, these seem to be based on having significant downtime even with hasten + 6 recharges, and frankly no one can do anywhere close to that anymore.
IMHO all of the debuffs of trick arrow aside from EMP arrow should be up 10 or 20 seconds after the effect is over when slotted with 3 recharges, just as tar patch and freezing rain are.
So:
Glue arrow (recharge is about 1.5x as long as it really should be)
Disruption arrow (recharge is about 1.5x as long as it really should be)
Oil slick arrow (I could understand if this one has a fairly large delay but I think it should be up about half the time with 3 recharges perhaps? So again 1.5x the recharge as it should be?)
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If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked.
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The worst offending clip is where they had the actor jumping over a fallen tree while shooting his bow and repeated it over and over, and then spliced together several takes to try and make it look like he was jumping over the log while firing the bow lots of times. And it looks worse than it sounds.
The obvious reference point these days is Green Arrow in the recent JLU cartoon. And he ain't exactly quick on the draw.
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I do this all the time with my Archer. Hurdle+Combat Jumping all over the place. Thematically, having the zen-like focus to be flipping all over the place while loosing arrow after arrow is slicker than all get out. Is it something you'd see out of a normal archer character? Nope. Then again, since most folks can't fly or fire bolts of raw energy out of their hands, I think exceptions can be made.
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'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.
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I believe it was DaVinci who said:
"An Archer must be:
Keen of eye,
Sure of hand,
Fleet of foot,
Canny of mind."
When I imagine an Arrow-power based Hero, that is the feeling I am looking for while I play.
As I said before, I trully feel the two major problems with Archery and Trick Arrow are Accuracy and Speed. _Castle_'s point the animations looking silly as "Hawk, the Slayer" was little off. Snap Shot is WAAAAY slower than anything I saw in that movie. But anything is slower than that. :P If a movie reference for animation speed is what you are looking for, might I suggest Legolas from the LotR films. Much more sensible choice, I say. But that is besides the point. Here is my opinion on the Speed issue: No animation for a bow should take longer than 1.75 secs, with the exception of Ranged Shot. I believe the talented programmers at Cryptic can manage to use that amount of time to make the animations come out right.
Now, Accuracy. This is a major point that needs to be looked at for Archery and Trick Arrow. Archer heroes should NOT miss. Shooting an arrow a large thug from 10' away and missing is not... NOT... what a heroic archer does. Heck, junior high school girls in gym class can make that kind of shot with a bow consistantly. A heroic archer makes that shot even if he/she was standing on a leevy in New Orleans during Katrina. Unless some major forces are acting upon the archer in question, such as a supervillain's powers for defense, etc; a miss should be a rarity for the Archery hero. Can anyone see a way I am wrong on this point?
Is it bad that my first reaction was "oh god what are they doing to archery/trick arrow now?" Followed by "oh it's from _Castle_ it should be good news."
Actually it does look nice but I am also hoping for more happiness and joy coming Archery/TA's way. The sets need something they simply under perform currently. ::sigh:: And I like my ta/a, I just wish he where more effective and didn't have to out level so many missions so he could do them.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
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