Archery/Trick Arrows for I7
By
Alodarn,
Posted on: 2006-04-03 14:59 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Wow, I had forgotten all about Hawk the Slayer. I saw that years and years ago, back when the station that is now the local Fox station was an independent job. They showed all KINDS of bizarre low-budget stuff late at night, and they never edited anything. I thought the movie was great at the time. Was it really rated R? (EDIT: Nope, PG)
Heh, a trip down memory lane. I'm gonna start crying over Old Yeller any minute now 
EDIT: Oh my GOD, there is a DVD version! Someone in this thread wanted to know, so here you go. Only $24.98 for this baby, so place your orders now. 
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Shooting an arrow a large thug from 10' away and missing is not... NOT... what a heroic archer does.
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And I suppose missing someone with a axe mace sword or even a punch at point blank range is for a hero.
In the old batman ty show I remeber things like "pow" "smack" and "bang" when they threw a punch
Not "whiff" "air" and "how the hell did I miss a filing cabinet at point blank range"
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If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.
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On the other hand, there were places in the Lord of the Rings movies where Legolas fired arrows significantly faster than is humanly possible--they used CGI for it--and for the most part it looked all right.
I liked the look of the Archer speed shooting in Hawk the slayer ( and the crossbow guy as well ) I thought it was bad-arsed looking. Of course.. I was nine years old at the time... 
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Now, Accuracy. This is a major point that needs to be looked at for Archery and Trick Arrow. Archer heroes should NOT miss. Shooting an arrow a large thug from 10' away and missing is not... NOT... what a heroic archer does. Heck, junior high school girls in gym class can make that kind of shot with a bow consistantly. A heroic archer makes that shot even if he/she was standing on a leevy in New Orleans during Katrina. Unless some major forces are acting upon the archer in question, such as a supervillain's powers for defense, etc; a miss should be a rarity for the Archery hero. Can anyone see a way I am wrong on this point?
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When you miss, that's exactly what happened!
as for animations, I think they could all be speeded up. en Snap shot goes off slower than the 2nd power of most blaster sets.
I like the idea of firing on the move as an archery skill, for everything, or everything but snipe.. Should be fore Trick Arrow too.
in trick arrow: Flash arrow needs to be a little bit better off the bat. I shouldn't hav eto stack two flashes to provide a singlifican miss chance. Glue arrow is amazingly slow for what you get for it. yes the area is very large -- about the size of the rain of fire/ice storm slows. But it doesn't do damage, and recycles in twice the time they do. My Ice Blaster can drop an average of 1 ice storm a fight, my TA/Archery defender gets to do Glue only once every other fight.
I haven't gotetn up high enough to see what other powers are like, but you've seen them here.
if and when customized powers comes about, I'd like to see the archery sets get a longbow (what it has now), Crossbow, and Japanese style bow (where you hold it 1/3 from the bottom instead of in the center....but thats an I8, I9 maybe I10 issue
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No, I'm not done with these sets, this was just a quick update while I was thinking about it.
'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.
Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.
Endurance costs. I did a pass on these a few weeks ago. I honestly don't remember which powers were changed at that time, but there were 2 or 3 that were the wrong cost. Trick Arrow is more problematic in this regard, and I've not looked at them yet.
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They need to get that out on DVD
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You mean like this?
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WHAT!!! 
I loved that Elf. He sparked alot of my Archer toons in AD&D. IMO, I thought it looked cool for the effects at that time. I dont know why they needed anyone else in that group, he could have done it all solo!! And the other poster was right. Get the magazine clip going. That was off the hook!!
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Why is everyone so in love with Crow? GOrt may have been small for a giant, but in some scenes in the background he was just as fast as Crow.
I'm truelly scared by the number of people that remember this wonderfully horrible movie. Who can forget the super balls, and rubber arrows. And Jack Palance was amazing in his role of Voltar. The really scarey thing is I had college friends that made a Hawk the Slayer II trailer for a film class.
To stay a bit on topic. I used to love my Ice/TA Controller, until ED hit. Without perma hasten some powers recharges are just painful. I'm still amazed that TA remains the only set to get heavily nerfed after showing up on test. How it got neutered before it went live, when Stalkers and Plant Dominators made it in tact to live is beyond me.
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in trick arrow: Flash arrow needs to be a little bit better off the bat. I shouldn't hav eto stack two flashes to provide a singlifican miss chance.
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I assume you're partnered up with another TA user, because you cannot stack this power by yourself; subsequent applications overwrite previous ones.
OK
First fanboy, then comment.
_castle_ you are the man! I've followed you thought so many other powers, and now your tackling my favorite! So happy. oh sooo happy...
Comment...
Why does the toon have to draw anything? Everything's kept in "Hammer Space Its not like the Bow is strung over the shoulder, or the arrows are in a quiver.
Why doesn't the bow just appear ready to fire an arrow then all the animation has to do is raise it and shoot?
Then, next attack, the arrow appears when the bowstring is pulled back again.
Before I get hit with Role-play pie
I like role-play as much as the next. Drawing my trick arrow from its appropriate quiver slot.. . taking aim.. . Holding until I see the whites in their eyes, say a pithy phrase and LET LOOSE
BAM! Cool!
But thats not this game. It would be nice if the pulling from the quiver were cool, but when it helps game play, baby, bathwater.. bye -bye.
Forget the quiver... I would rather have the arrow draw from the bow, then to have "Hammer Space" behind my back.
Pulling the arrows out of an invisible quiver always seamed much-ado-about-nothing. Like shoelaces on flip-flops.
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OMG I just watched the video, that is an overexaggeration if I've ever seen one. Taking the animation times down to more reasonable levels like 2 secs or even 1.67 or whatever is not going to make the set look stupid but it will make it perform better. I do like the posters idea about shooting on the run though, that would be acceptable as well, especially since no one can do it through ww anymore.
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I suppose now would be a bad time to mention that the good archers of old militaries fired approximately 12 arrows per minute...resulting in an draw and fire time of...let me see...60 divided by 12 is 5 seconds. Wait, isn't that the current average animation time for Archery/TA?
Yes, I know this is supposed to have a comic book feel, not an antique military weapons buff feel.
@SithRose and @Sith Rose
Permanent resident of Virtue
"Mommy, I need Cthulhu. He keeps the bad dreams away."
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No, I'm not done with these sets, this was just a quick update while I was thinking about it.
'Quick' animations -- You guys are right, in the comics, Archery is seen as very fast and accurate. Fortunately, they don't have to animate them...they just draw as many arrows flying as the story warrants (see Manticore in our comic, for an example.) In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set. If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked. A similar effect would happen in CoX if we animated all the shots that quickly.
Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.
Endurance costs. I did a pass on these a few weeks ago. I honestly don't remember which powers were changed at that time, but there were 2 or 3 that were the wrong cost. Trick Arrow is more problematic in this regard, and I've not looked at them yet.
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They need to get that out on DVD
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You mean like this?
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Whoa, that's cheaper than B&N. The temptation to pick it up is strong.
I like how the CASE is considered a "special feature". That + interactive menus (as opposed to...?) = an offer one can't refuse.
Where does the term "hammer space" come from? I understand the gist but I've never heard that expression before.
-mb
The truth is, the shocking truth is, the reason why TA/A is currently in it's perceived state of suckiness is this...
Archers are just so much more sexy than everyone else.
To balance for their immediate sex appeal, they simply have to have heavy recharge times, horrible powers like Entangling and Flash, and debuffs that aggro everyone in the area.
The truth has been revealed.
- Karma, player of a Level 29 TA/A on Champion.
I'm too sexy for my quiver, too sexy for my quiver, I'm just too sexy.
Hammer Space...
Not sure where I heard it from. I think a PC Gamer Mag talked about it. Its that space where things appear from when you don't have them in your visible inventory.
Its an old term, Everquest or Baldur's Gate time. Instantly pulling out your +6 Two Handed War Hammer from your backpack or beltpouch inventory.
Whats really sticking in my craw (sp?) about this is no mention of Entangleing Arrow. This is the worst "Must Take" power in the entire game (for MM and COntroller version).
Horrid animation time compounded with a delay between hitting and the effect actually going off.
THe other single target immobilizes do either damage (nothing too great, but still helps) or have -recharge (like web grenade). And none seem to suffer the same effect lag, nor have the animation time (which I assume is compenstaed for with +ACC).
Look at the thread in General on worst power sets. Is their any debate this is the worst Defender Primary and MM secondary? (Controller version is arguable with the nice second hold syngery and the containment benefit of Entangleing Arrow)
I appreciate Castle coming here and speaking on it, but how long does it take to see, "Wow this Power Set stinks? Let me look at each power for one hour and see how it can be brought up to par". Is one day too much time to ask to fix a portion of your game which is desperatly needing?
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Where does the term "hammer space" come from? I understand the gist but I've never heard that expression before.
-mb
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Anime.
In various anime series, a female character would smash a fellow character (usually male) with a large hammer for doing something wrong/foolish/etc. The hammer is comically large and therefore could not be hidden on the female (usually petite) character's body.
Therefore, it's said that the hammer is stored in an other-dimensional space when not in use. This space is commonly refered to as "hammer space"
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Where does the term "hammer space" come from? I understand the gist but I've never heard that expression before.
-mb
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Hammerspace is the strange extradimensional space from which cartoon/comic/animated/game characters produce objects that they clearly didn't have before (notably signs, weapons, bombs, and huge wooden mallets). The idea has been around for ages, but it's been called various things--the old Toon RPG had rules that covered pulling things from "your back pocket" (even if your character had no pockets, or, indeed, no clothes). Wikipedia suggests that the convergence on "hammerspace" as the standard term is mostly due to the influence of anime fans, particularly those of Ranma 1/2, which featured a girl who frequently pulled giant mallets out of nowhere to whack guys who annoyed her. (This behavior is, of course, not unique to Ranma.)
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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Where does the term "hammer space" come from? I understand the gist but I've never heard that expression before.
-mb
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It comes from the ability of Anime girls to, out of nowhere, summon a hammer to whack their wayward boyfriends with.
Hammerspace is notional place all those hammers are stored. Its also where Bugs Bunny gets anvils to drop on Elmer, where the Highlander keeps his sword, ad so on.
Wow three post, all alike! All in a row! "Hammer Space!" "Hammer Time!" Can't touch this!
"Hammer Space!" "Hammer Time!"
While you're at it...
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OK here's the data for the home audience.
GLUE ARROW______________SNOW STORM
LVL 2 Trick Arrow___________LVL 2 Storm Summoning
Range: 60_________________Range: 80
Activation: 2.67 secs________Activation: 2.03 secs
Cost: 7.8__________________Cost: .47762
Duration: 30 secs____________Duration: infinite (toggle)
Recharge: 120 secs___________Recharge: 10 secs
Effect: -Recharge, -Spd________Effect: -Recharge, -Spd
Ok, quick analysis...
First off, why the heck does it take only 10 seconds for Storm Summoning to recharge, while it takes 2 minutes for Glue Arrow???
Secondly, why the heck does Glue Arrow have a longer activation time, have no clear advantage to end cost, and have shorter range???
Finally, why the heck is Snow Storm infinite in duration toggle, while Glue Arrow has 30 seconds of fame. In retrospect, without Stamina or any End Reduction SOs, Snow Storm could cost 400% more END before it outstrips the BASE END Recovery.
In summary, we all know Trick Arrow is a bit weak, but this is unreal. This set needs to be thrown a bone and this is just one example of how bad this set really is (especially a set without healing). Sure, I love my Stormie, but when I started my Bowman, the first thing I said was, "[censored] is up with the recharge on Glue Arrow? Don't the Devs realize this same power is available ALL the time on my Stormie???"
Oh yes, I know every power should be different, but these two powers are the same, except one is available all the time and can last an infinite duration, while the other is um, different.
Cheers,
SUN
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In the game, having all the animations be as quick as snap shot would definitely decrease the visual appeal of the set.
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I think the problem isn't the animation movements quite so much as the "stand there and hold still" before and after drawing. That, and the fact that somehow the bow strings issued by Freedom Corps must be really noisy, since with cloaking device and group invisibility mobs can still sometimes hear me pull back the bow string and will start attacking before the arrow ever even fires.
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If any of you have ever seen a movie called "Hawk, the Slayer" you'll remember how absolutely silly the archer in that looked.
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You mean that wasn't the inspiration for the Archery primary??? Darn, there goes my hope for the Full-Auto Archery Epic...
Just a thought. The other thing about archers is their fluid mobility. See how Green Arrow is in Justice League Unlimited, or Legolas in the movies. Always moving and shooting.
Would simply removing the rooted aspect from all powers in Trick Arrow and Archery--as something unique to this set--be enough to overcome it's other weaknesses? I.e., leave everything relatively as is, maybe shorten some recharges at most: but lose the rooted. Let the archers dash about.
Or would that be too powerful?
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Would simply removing the rooted aspect from all powers in Trick Arrow and Archery--as something unique to this set--be enough to overcome it's other weaknesses? I.e., leave everything relatively as is, maybe shorten some recharges at most: but lose the rooted. Let the archers dash about.
Or would that be too powerful?
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I suspect that would be a bit too powerful (hard to say for sure, but I'm certain there would be PvP complaints by those no longer able to freely prey upon archers). But there is one animation that could be reduced in duration that would have absolutely no effect on "animation aesthetics" and would do a great deal towards improving the set. Reduce the animation (not recharge time) and "dead time" for the Archery version of AIM.
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Not putting the bow away when using other powers. Brawl is the only attack power in the game that allows you to not put your weapon away when attacking with it. Brawl also took more animation time by several multiples than any other power in the game. Doing something similar with every power which could be used in conjunction with Archery/Trick Arrow simply isn't feasible.
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In several cases, the animation itself wouldn't have to actually be changed that I can see, the bow simply left out. So at most I believe it would be duplicating an animation and attaching the bow to the hand again? Healing Aura or Heal Other look like they would work just fine if the bow simply wasn't put away, for two obvious though perhaps cliche examples.