>_< Nightmares!
Other wise good idea
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Pax, when you quit ranting and can give me a LEGIT reason why my pre-i2 toons are being discrimnated against I'll start paying attention to your posts.
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Legit Reason? Your reason is right here! *Rips off my shirt* Look at this body! Flawlessly scupltured in service of our forums! Feel how the pulse with loyalty, how solid and serious they are! Feel how! If you don't believe me, then they'll make you believe! Feel!
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Finally someone with some sense! LOL
Put this thread to bed!
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Ok lets get technical since you seem to be doing so.
Yes, they are all kill (x) badges. So in a way it is in the same .
But it is not the same because Isolator is not a Event badge as the others are such as the Winter, Halloween and the celebrant badge.
These badges were for a limited time. Isolator is still currently in the game. The special event badges are not. So in fact they are not exactly the same. Only way they are similar is because of the kill (x) attached to them.
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So what you're saying is that there can only be two types of badges: Special event badges that only exist for a limited time and long-term badges that should be available to all characters at any time (not counting perhaps some minimum requirement, such as level)? Why can't there be more types? Why can't there be tutorial-only badges? Should the devs be forced to make every new thing they add to the game available to all existing characters, regardless of level?
Just as it doesn't make sense to have the event badges available outside of the events, it doesn't make sense to have tutorial badges available outside of the tutorial. I have no problem with the devs adding another badge for killing 100 contaminated outside of the tutorial, but part of Isolator is that you get it with a new character, and changing that would destroy the badge.
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The point isn't that allowing ONE o-back will create desires or suggestions regarding the other badges, it's that it steadily gets harder and harder to say no, each timeyou say yes.
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*boggles*
That statement makes as much sense as saying "I say no every time my child wants to see a movie, no matter what the movie, because if I say yes just once it's harder for me to say no the next time."
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More like "My kids aren't allowed to see R-rated movies - no exceptions, becuase if I say 'yes' once, I know the NEXT time, they'll be aaaw, but LAST time you let us, and THAT was okay! This time will be the same thing!!"
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Or a boss that says "I say no everytime an employee asks for a raise, if I give one a raise, then it makes it harder to say no to the next one."
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False analogy, because an employer must EXPECT to give out raises some time.
Want a good analogy? A REALLY good one?
"This country does not negotiate with terrorists." There's a reason for that policy (and at least here, it is policy).
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We are not asking for a 'gimme' but a way to earn something.
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Careful with that "we", kemosabe - the guy Iw as replying to DOES think that Isolator SHOULD just be given, for free to all pre-I2 characters.
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Careful with that "we", kemosabe - the guy Iw as replying to DOES think that Isolator SHOULD just be given, for free to all pre-I2 characters.
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Only because of the badge wording. If they changed Isolator in it's current form (even a simple description edit saying "You have helped keep order in Outbreak by..." then I'd be fine for a method of EARNING it. However in it's current incarnation earning it as a level 50 is more off to me than just outright rewarding it to those who were never given the chance to earn it.
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Pax, when you quit ranting and can give me a LEGIT reason why my pre-i2 toons are being discrimnated against I'll start paying attention to your posts.
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Legit Reason? Your reason is right here! *Rips off my shirt* Look at this body! Flawlessly scupltured in service of our forums! Feel how the pulse with loyalty, how solid and serious they are! Feel how! If you don't believe me, then they'll make you believe! Feel!
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O.O 
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So what you're saying is that there can only be two types of badges: Special event badges that only exist for a limited time and long-term badges that should be available to all characters at any time (not counting perhaps some minimum requirement, such as level)? Why can't there be more types?
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I never said there coulnd't be more types then the two I described.
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Why can't there be tutorial-only badges?
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I never said there coundn't be a tutorial badge. But I went through tutorial but I never received a badge for it, and I even killed over 100 contaminated, but because no datamining was in play when these badges went live I could not go back and defeat what I had to, to earn the badge.
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Should the devs be forced to make every new thing they add to the game available to all existing characters, regardless of level?
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Of course, that why we pay our monthly dues, to enjoy content.
Since we are talking about badges I will try to use an example here.
If the devs put in a badge such as the Halloween badges this upcoming year and they say well lets put it in a zones that require you to be level 20+ then that excludes all heroes below level 20 and it would not be fair to them as they play and enjoy this game as the rest of us do.
Yeah some badge do require you to be of a certain level to gain access to the zone such as Creys Folly, but those badges are always there so this would not fall under my example. Because eventually you will get to the level to get these badges.
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Just as it doesn't make sense to have the event badges available outside of the events
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Well I have these badges, but I am not against the devs bringing them back the following year, that way people who were not here do get the chance to get them again. Im not like the Anti-Isolator people who are in this thread who are dead set against the Isolator being available to members who missed it.
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it doesn't make sense to have tutorial badges available outside of the tutorial.
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I agree with you. but again I say, many preI2 never had the fair chance in getting this badge so they should be given the chance to earn this badge as a new hero can.
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I have no problem with the devs adding another badge for killing 100 contaminated outside of the tutorial
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Im glad you do not mind, as Im sure the heroes who missed this badge appreciates your opinion.
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but part of Isolator is that you get it with a new character, and changing that would destroy the badge.
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No, it would not destroy the badge. If preI2 heroes were awarded this badge and then leave the badge where it is as it is, no harm would be done, because back in Issue 2 if Im not mistaken, you were forced to go through Outbreak as you are now in CoV. So everyone had to go through Outbreak so I feel the preI2 heroes should get the badge.
I feel if the devs would just award the badge to all the pre issue 2 heroes, the Isolator threads would stop all together.
And the devs should really consider adding something in the tutorial letting people know of badges. making them aware of them because it is a part of the game.
But thats my opinion.
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
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I feel if the devs would just award the badge to all the pre issue 2 heroes, the Isolator threads would stop all together...
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I think that would be fine, however I wouldn't mind having to defeat 100, 250, or even 333 to get the Isolator badge. If the devs feel I need to earn it, I have no problem with that! I'm one of the heroes that took out 10,000 freaking Rikti Monkeys, 333 Contaminated would be a cake walk.
Fusion Force
Since it's mostly pre-i2 heroes that have an issue with not having isolator (since they have a very valid excuse) then yeah if they did that the threads would stop. But they won't because they hate datamining...but at the current rate of development on issues sounds like they barely have enough people to keep the game running...
Maybe they should take some of the money they're making off ads like that Creative X-Fi ad on the front page, and use it to hire someone...
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Legit Reason? Your reason is right here! *Rips off my shirt* Look at this body! Flawlessly scupltured in service of our forums! Feel how the pulse with loyalty, how solid and serious they are! Feel how! If you don't believe me, then they'll make you believe! Feel!
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I am impressed. Getting a perfectly round sphere is quite difficult. Then again 10k+ posts I'd pretty much expect it 
Wow... just wow. I go away for a weekend, and when I come back it's like a war has broken out! >_< Anyway, there's a lot for me to catch up on here, so...
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I asked, and The_PMD answered:
I don't agree with that. I don't think completist badge collectors are the only ones who appreciate badges. I love badge collecting. But Im not one of those collectors who feels that I must have EVERYTHING to make collecting worthwhile. I'm not a completist, and you're automatically equating "collector" with "completist." I used the Veruca comparison because Veruca just wanted. She had no reason for wanting, she just WANTED. I won't go into a long diatribe about why I have such problems with the completist attitude, but, in short, I think it's a damaging mindset that should never be encouraged. And, yes, "I WANT" and "I deserve" sound almost the same to me.
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Eek! ^_^ Sorry to give you that impression; I certainly wasn't looking to generalize. Really, what I'm saying is that there is - to my mind - a percentage of the playerbase that collects badges simply for the sake of collecting them; and playing into that is, indeed, a completist attitude. Now, I opine that if the largest consumer of the badge system is the completist demographic, then to lock certain badges as a result of questionable design is effectively biting the hand that feeds.
Now, having said that, I've also hopefully made it clear by now that an answer to this matter will only be effected by what amounts to, for want of a better phrase, market research. Nothing fancy, just a random sampling of the characters without Isolator:
1. Do you like collecting badges?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No
2. Would you like to get the Isolator badge?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No
3. If yes, why would you like to get it?
[ ] I like the badge
[ ] I like the title
[ ] I want to round out the collection
(Obviously, this is anything *but* a proper survey; I'm just trying (and hopefully suceeding) at illustrating a point here.)
Now, if it turns out there's a demand for putting in some sort of pro-Isolator mission, then it makes sense to put it in. (Unless there's a well-reasoned argument that the resulting player satisfaction will be balanced by a drop in subscription numbers caused by people rolling fewer alts, or somesuch.) Furthermore, if it turns out that a good majority are looking to get the badge simply to add to their collection, then there is an issue with the current badge system - as it would be working counter to the desires of it's greatest consumer.
My thinking is this: the badge system is, one might say, a collectible item system. Only instead of getting hand-numbered Babylon 5 Commorative Dishes, you've got pretty icons and titles instead. As with any collectible item system, there are those that are motivated to get just the few items that they like; and conversely, you have those that will collect the whole set just to have the whole set. (I can't profess to understand the latter, and I *am* the latter, but there you go.)
All I'm saying is, barring a good discussion otherwise as to how CoX would be adversely affected (i.e. the aforementioned subscription drop / lack of alts problem), it seems like playing *against* those completionist tendancies is somewhat self-defeating. That is, of course, if the completionists are actually a sizable number. If it's just me and Emerald_Fusion, it's probably not quite as important. ^_^
Just as an aside; and I know you said you wouldn't go into a long diatribe... but... why do you have a problem with the idea of the completist? I mean, my reading of the character of Varuca Salt was that she was spoiled in the sense that anything she wanted, she got. Digressing here, one supposes it depends - do you consider 'greed' to be uncontrolled want; or is more akin to massive over-indulgence? I favour the latter idea; but if I may be so bold: would I be right in thinking you see it more as the former?
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But what about the subsequent badges that have been limited time? My main technically could have had Isolator (had I know about it) but never could've gotten the first Halloween Badge. But that's part of the idea of creating a unique experience...no two toons wil have the same things available to them. I LIKE this approach. I think it's good that very few toons will be able to have all the badges. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of badge collecting at all.
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Well, there's a couple of things here. I do think that we are all coloured by our own experiences and motivations. I'm not trying to be confrontational here (there's far too much thoughtless arguing going on in the thread as is) but when you say "It doesn't affect my enjoyment of badge collecting at all"... that's sort of it, isn't it? I mean, I'm glad for you. ^_^ But at the same time, it *does* affect my enjoyment of badge collecting; in fact, it's had quite a severe effect on it. I don't even collect badges with my two alts; I can't see the point.
You might say to yourself at this point; "That's a bit of a overly severe reaction, isn't it?" Yeah, sure it is! ^_^ But it's still the reaction I've had, and it doesn't strike me as one beneficial to my subscription. Again, my question is: are there a lot of people like me? If there are, it could have a negative impact on the game. If there aren't, then the status quo rules.
Now, as a second aside - I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of making each character's experience more unique. I totally agree! I mean, sometimes I get a bit jaded seeing that same bloody warehouse one too many times ^_^; how must it be for the altoholics out there, doing the same *missions* over and over again for each alt? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that why Cryptic introduced a mechanism to skip Outbreak in the first place?)
I'm all for the unique; branching mission paths, Origin-specific missions, AT-specific missions, AT-specific sub-missions... the possibilities really are endless. But is this something that should extend also to the badge system? I don't think so; but like I said, I harken the idea that a significant percentage of the population could be of the "Gotta catch 'em all!" mentality. And again; if they are not? Then the status quo will rule. ^_^
Ok. after reading through, I will agree on only one condition.
Make the tutorial PVP. 
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The_PMD is always consistantly interesting:
The reason is that they don't want all the content available to every toon. Every player, yes. Every toon, no. They clearly want us to roll alts and have a unique experience with each alt. You can see this attitude in almost everything done in this game.
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I think you are right when you say that the Developers want us to roll alts; it's a time-proven way in which to stave off the endgame and all that it entails. And furthermore, we naturally expect a different experience with each character we create; altoholicism is a means with which to inject replay value. And replay is, inherently, the idea of reusing existing content in order to keep the player and keep them paying.
(Heck, why did they invent hi-score tables if not to pursuade arcade-goers to drop another quarter in the machine?)
Now, I think this is perhaps where our interpretations diverge. I think the idea of replay is concomitant with maximizing the use of content; whilst it may be necessary to occasionally make content unavailable (i.e. you can't go down both branches of a decision) it would be self-defeating to lock out content unnecessarily.
Personally, I feel that the badge system exists outside of the logical branching structures in the game; to make a single badge unavailable - on something as arbitrary as a character's creation date - seems like a measure counter to the replay concept. (Not to mention the already well-tread subject being counter to the ideals of the completist badge-hunter.)
Finally, I would add that under the premise of increasing replay in CoX, it would be quite beneficial to enable a 'flashback' mode. Now, doing so would seem, at least potentially, to be at odds with the idea of "...all the content [being] available to every toon." But this is where I think that the 'Kheldian' mindset comes into play; that it is easier for the Devs to enable playing through the existing content, than it is for them to create another 50 levels.
(And as a final note; I am shooting in the dark on this, but it would be my guess that so far, the only reason 'flashback' has not yet been implemented is because of either technical problems, or because of exploit potential. Surely, if a player wishes to actively go back to previous levels and essentially spend their time there unproductively (at least in terms of XP), then this is something to be encouraged as a worthwhile timesink?)
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Foxtail jested:
Ok. after reading through, I will agree on only one condition.
Make the tutorial PVP.
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Best. Idea. EVAH.
Now, a couple of points:
First of all, if any pro-Isolator solution is going to go forward, then it has to fulfill certain requirements. For one, it needs to be quick and easy to implement. (Despite the heated debate in-topic, the badge is proportionally quite a small part of the CoX world.) There have also been some criticisms raised about the safety of allowing higher-level heroes back into tutorial zone, as there is potential for griefing and other such problems. (Not much potential, but it's there.)
Finally, and this is a matter of personal taste; but the solution should most likely take the form of a 'regular' mission, in which it just so happens that Isolator is available. I say this for two reasons; firstly, as I expressed earlier, it seems self-defeating to lock out content where there is no logical reason (i.e. branching) to do so. Secondly, to create a mission *only* available to the non-Isolator crowd could be construed as rather hypocritical in light of discussion on how that very same group cannot access the Isolator content.
Now, an important point:
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BallLightning shook mightily:
The badge itself needs to be changed. I fully support that and would like to see that since it's NOT fair that our pre-badge era toons were left out of the chance to get it. However I don't want it in its current form...
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The badge is quite descriptive; "You started your career"... The badge is very clearly tied to a particular time and event; in order for any solution to go forward, the badge text needs to be changed. Some would argue that to do so would make the badge more generic and less rich in mythos; I'll leave this particular point for others to debate.
Now, possible solutions:
Datamining: Unfortunately, datamining is not a reliable means in which to instigate changes in the MMORPG sphere; it is, however, extremely costly in terms of time and resources. I can say this with some confidence, as I have witness large-scale datamining operations at hand; although I think the 'two-year' estimate Positron once threw out to be possibly a bit exaggerated, it still takes an enormous amount of time and effort to process so much data.
On top of this, it is entirely possible that the information in question simply cannot be determined by a datamining operation. In order to mine the badge successfully, we would need to establish the following sort of process:
What date was the character created?
Is it before Issue 2?
If so, then award the Isolator Badge.
Now, the problem here is, the creation date of each character might not be recorded in the database. Therefore we need something more complex, such as:
What date was the master account created?
Is it before Issue 2?
If so, locate all characters on this account.
For each character, award the Isolator Badge.
Now we've got a problem. First of all, the process has become much more imprecise; characters created *after* I2 may be awarded the Isolator badge; furthermore, one must process *all* characters for each eligible account; this drives the processing cost upwards. And what if it transpires that the 'account creation date' only refers to the last time the account was active; where does that leave players that were here before I2, left, and then came back again?
Datamining has it's uses; unfortunately, it is for the most part a very inefficient means for backwardly determining awards. I think such time could be much better spent providing a tool to customer service reps for awarding badges; a providing an automated online form for such a task; at least they would be much more precise in their aim.
...
Auto-examplaring: I get the feeling that whilst this would potentially be the easiest solution to carry out (provide contacts to auto-examplar and teleport the player to Outbreak and back) the Developers would very likely be unhappy with the idea - again, because it has potential for grief-makery. It might not seem like much; then again, nobody really foresaw the stacking tendencies of mobs being used against them, or the use of Teleport Friend as a means by which to make other players permanent watch-tower denizens.
Basically, players are quite capable of being ingenious and mischevious; and even if there is little potential in being able to grief the newbies in their own zone, there is certainly a great deal of lure in at least attempting to do so.
...
Time-travel: The more I thought about this, the more I realised it's not such a bad idea for a mission; the only caveat is that any sort of time-travel story needs to take place an instanced variation of Outbreak, rather than the actual tutorial zone.
In fact, the more I think about this, the more I see potential for a very fun mission with very little overhead. Let me envision...
The mission would revolve around a pentad of NPC superheroes; esteemed in the eyes of many, and praised by the people of Paragon for their prevailing protection from the forces of opression. For want of better names and backstories, I shall hertho refer to them as The Pentad, and their five individual members - Blastsploitation, Scraptastic, Defending Counsel, The Tank, and their wise leader, Controlling Interest!
Mighty heroes all; but they were not always this way. Going back in time, the Pentad were like you and me - green around the edges, unsure of their place in a harsh world and new to the city of Paragon. Before they became the awesome superhero juggernaught of justice that we know and love, the Pentad were new arrivals in the Outbreak containment zone.
And that is where their arch-nemesis, The Galling British Scoundrel, will strike! Having finally acquired the Tea Of Time Itself (authors note: I'm just having some fun here ^_^) and is using it to travel into history, kidnapping a vital member of the team during their first mission in Outbreak and luring the remaining team members into an elaborate trap - the very fate of the future of some of Paragon's most celebrated heroes rests in the balance!
It is up to our intrepid hero to travel via time-portal to an instanced Outbreak - there they will rally the Pentad, taking the place of the kidnapped member. (Which just so happens to be the same AT as our player... isn't that a handy but easily-coded coincidence?) Our hero journeys through Outbreak, leading the inexperienced Pentad team to a disused building teeming with Contaminated working under the thrall of The Scoundrel.
Did I mention there's a lot of Contaminated? It's a good thing you've got the remaining Pentad to back you up. Go go ally AI!
(As an aside, I'm not sure if it would be better to ramp the level of the Contaminated up to the level of the hero - under the guise of being 'Super Contaminated' - or whether it would be more appropriate for the hero to be auto-examplared down, on the basis that "No one may suspect you are really a hero from the future".)
The player and their new teammates must fight their way from the start of Outbreak through to their eventual destination - a building on the far side of the zone - and then through the corridors to finally rescue their friend and defeat the villainous Scoundrel. The future is saved! And all in the name of good fun.
Now, mind you, there's no reason why we can't just drop a bunch of Contaminated into a portal mission, but reusing the Outbreak zone could be a very fun way of doing things. Add to which, it still doesn't require much effort. The team AI is already available, as are the maps, and the Contaminated. It's just a case of putting everything together, and as an ordinary mission, it has the potential to be very memorable. (Compare and contrast with the 'cape' / 'time capsule' mission.) Change the badge text to something a bit more generic (or maybe a tongue-in-cheek nod to the circumstances under which the badge was collected; "You started the career of the Pentad"... ah, but that's more work.)
...
Conclusion: Okay, I've had my fun playing backseat developer. ^_^ The point is, a mission solving the Isolator issue needn't be a bad thing; in fact, it could be a great deal of fun for everyone, and an excellent display of the team AI mechanics. (Or it might highlight their failings, but this isn't something I'm overly qualified to consider.) Plus it adds to the ever-growing backstory of Paragon - it could, for instance, be tied to the Ubelmann arc. And there is no reason that a very similar mission could not be created for the Villain side of things, whereby a rogue hero travels back in time in an attempt to assassinate a particularly eminant villain. The posibilities in this respect could well be endless. ^_^
There's my thoughts for now. Hopefully they'll help steer the conversation back into the fun stuff, instead of the whole "I think the Isolator badge should be available to all" / "You want the moon on the stick!" / "I like that you can't have the badge" ideological malarky. ^_^
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Finally, and this is a matter of personal taste; but the solution should most likely take the form of a 'regular' mission, in which it just so happens that Isolator is available.
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I object to any such possibility.
A regular mission opportunity as you describe does not limit the "go back and get it, after all" opportunity to Pre-I2 characters only; it throws the gates wide open for anyone to go and get it again.
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The badge is quite descriptive; "You started your career"... The badge is very clearly tied to a particular time and event; in order for any solution to go forward, the badge text needs to be changed.
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I object to any such change of text, also.
The entire point of Isolator is that it is the FIRST in-game opportunity to earn a badge which a character (made post-I2) can earn. That is intrinsic in it's very existance. To change the text and eliminate that reference would destroy the badge itself.
Any opportunity for anyoen to get Isolator post-tutorial must, IMO, meet these four non-negotiable criteria:
[*] It must be limited, solely and exclusively, wihtout exception, to those character who never had the opportunity to earn Isolator the "approved" way - meaning, those created before Issue 2;
[*] It must require EFFORT to acquire - effort commensurate with the effort of killing 100 level-one Contaminated with (at best) a Security(1)/Combat(2)-levelled character;
[*] It must be a one chance only, no re-attempts allowed scenario; once you leave the "do-over" mission or whatever, you must not be allowed to return (ideally, there ould be a hospital IN the mission, of course);
[*] It must involve precisely zero alteration to the existing badge text.
The first one is because: I don't want it to become OPTIONAL to get it in the tutorial for new characters; I want new characters out to earn that badge toput the same work into it as they must today.
The second one is because, well ... TANSTAAFL; I want the pre-I2 guys to ALSO put the same (relative) amount of effort into getting the badge, as anyone post-I2 who sports it.
The third one is because ... as with a newbie in the Tutorial, if you leave without getting the badge, I want you to have missed the damned bus, once and for all and IRREVERSIBLY. The same as said newbie hero popping out to GC or AP.
And the last one, well ... because I'm willing to be a complete d*ck and protect the accomplishment of a coupleof my heroes, who DID start their careers ont eh described "high point"; I want the badge to CONTINUE to ascribe that very achievement to the badge-wearer.
...
Come up with something that meets (or exceeds) those four criteria, and I won't have any objections to it. Miss even one, and I will remain 100% opposed to the very concept itself.
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I just had a thought.
"Kill X" badges - they normally count the efforts of ALL team-members, yes?
...
Has anyoen considered rolling a new hero, doing the whole tutorial EXCEPT THE LAST MEETING WITH THE FINAL CONTACT ... and then teamign with a friend's L50 main ... before happily heading off to bash Contaminated skulls?
...
Might that be a workable way to get those badges, without requiring a change in code ...? Or are my fears of "different zone, doesn't count" all too true ...??
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This post is a few days old, but the correct response to it wasnt given, so Ill step up to the plate:
As things currently work in the game, this is not possible. You must be in the same zone as a teammate in order for you to get credit for kills he makes.
But this was not always the case. There was a very short period of time (like a couple of days or so) after a new patch when it was possible to get credit for kill badges from teammates in other zones. And yes, there were a very few people who took advantage of this at the time to get Isolator on their pre-I2 toons. Alas, not understanding the implications or the short time window, I was not one of these people.
Personally, I very much want the Isolator badge on my main character, the only pre-I2 toon I have. Liquid-X and Celtics opposition to the contrary, I see no good reason to deny it to us old timers. And the overall nastiness they both have spewed in this thread really, really undermine their own positions.
The best reasons against it that Ive seen are that it would be a waste of time for the devs to allow it, and that the text of the badge description would now be wrong. The villains required could easily be inserted into another oddball mission. (Pocket D anyone?) Heck, the Snaptooth mission already has dueling monkeys in the water off in one corner. It would be trivial to code in contaminated rather than monkeys. Changing the text of the badge would be equally trivial. Or just leave it alone. So what?
In favor of making it possible to get the badge we have two basic arguements: It would make customers happy, and it would be more fair to said customers who were playing the game before badges existed. Fairness and customer service. Both seem like very good reasons to me.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
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Any opportunity for anyoen to get Isolator post-tutorial must, IMO, meet these four non-negotiable criteria:
[*] It must be limited, solely and exclusively, wihtout exception, to those character who never had the opportunity to earn Isolator the "approved" way - meaning, those created before Issue 2;
[*] It must require EFFORT to acquire - effort commensurate with the effort of killing 100 level-one Contaminated with (at best) a Security(1)/Combat(2)-levelled character;
[*] It must be a one chance only, no re-attempts allowed scenario; once you leave the "do-over" mission or whatever, you must not be allowed to return (ideally, there ould be a hospital IN the mission, of course);
[*] It must involve precisely zero alteration to the existing badge text.
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It's almost what I laid out in my original post, but with a few more restrictions. But this would work for me Pax! I like it!
Fusion Force
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What date was the character created?
Is it before Issue 2?
If so, then award the Isolator Badge.
Now, the problem here is, the creation date of each character might not be recorded in the database. Therefore we need something more complex, such as:
What date was the master account created?
Is it before Issue 2?
If so, locate all characters on this account.
For each character, award the Isolator Badge.
Now we've got a problem. First of all, the process has become much more imprecise; characters created *after* I2 may be awarded the Isolator badge; furthermore, one must process *all* characters for each eligible account; this drives the processing cost upwards. And what if it transpires that the 'account creation date' only refers to the last time the account was active; where does that leave players that were here before I2, left, and then came back again?
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Ok, I don't know much about datamining, but I do know you're over thinking this idea you just said. Why are we worried about after I2 getting the badge, if they're looking for a specific date then have a program run for example something like
Search Dates "1-1-02" through "12-31-02"
(not sure when I2 came out, just using this for example)
Ok there's the dates it searches for account creation
Now the hard part would be knowing which toons were made before the date I2 came out, not sure if they keep track of that, but if they do then just use the same example above on the accounts that match the search criteria, if the toon was created before a certain date, then that one and one only should get the badge.
Yet if they don't keep track of toon creation then that could cause a problem.
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It must be limited, solely and exclusively, wihtout exception, to those character who never had the opportunity to earn Isolator the "approved" way - meaning, those created before Issue 2
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Okay, that should be easy enough, but without having access to the back-end system, I would have to go with the assumption that somewhere the "createDate" for each character is recorded. Filter characters by a createDate prior to the date Issue 2 went live.
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It must require EFFORT to acquire - effort commensurate with the effort of killing 100 level-one Contaminated with (at best) a Security(1)/Combat(2)-levelled character
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Okay, so it must be earned through a mission that exemps you down to level 1, basically. Easy enough, the auto-exemp feature should feasibly be able to handle this.
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It must be a one chance only, no re-attempts allowed scenario; once you leave the "do-over" mission or whatever, you must not be allowed to return (ideally, there ould be a hospital IN the mission, of course)
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I believe there are at least a couple of missions that have a 'failure limit' to them - for instance, the "Stop 30 Fir Bolg" mission in Croatoa. Apply the same mechanics, but set the failure limit to 1.
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It must involve precisely zero alteration to the existing badge text.
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This is honestly the trickiest of the criteria. We'd have to either have a time travel gimmick mission, or an "Alternate Universe" gimmick mission. I'd actually prefer the latter. It would make it so that pre-I2 toons couldn't get this until they reached Peregrine Island level, however. Once there, the flagged accounts would receive a pop-up message, similar to the ones for the Christmas and Valentine's Day missions. It would basically say, "Dr. Soeandsoe needs to speak with you immediately!" When you speak with him, he would give you the following schpiel:
"HeroX, we've discovered something disturbing: One of the many worlds out there that we've found through our research is in danger of being overrun by the same virus you likely fought as your first service to Paragon City. Their strongest heroes all sacrificed themselves in the battle against the Rikti, and unfortunately the remaining heroes were nearly drained of all power in the battle; thus, they fight valiantly to stem the tides of the Contaminated, but they are about to lose the fight. We need you to go wipe out enough of those infected to halt the progress of the virus. The downside here is that this world never reverse-engineered the portal technology - and so we cannot let them know that we are there. Because of that, you'll have to use only your weakest powers so you don't stand out too much. We've only got one shot at this; if you fail, the Contaminated will surely break out before you can restore yourself and get back to that world."
Now, because you're technically a brand-new hero to this alternate universe, you could be rewarded the badge, since it is technically the "start of your career" in that dimension.
So... any thoughts?
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This is honestly the trickiest of the criteria. We'd have to either have a time travel gimmick mission, or an "Alternate Universe" gimmick mission. I'd actually prefer the latter. It would make it so that pre-I2 toons couldn't get this until they reached Peregrine Island level, however. Once there, the flagged accounts would receive a pop-up message, similar to the ones for the Christmas and Valentine's Day missions. It would basically say, "Dr. Soeandsoe needs to speak with you immediately!" When you speak with him, he would give you the following schpiel:
"HeroX, we've discovered something disturbing: One of the many worlds out there that we've found through our research is in danger of being overrun by the same virus you likely fought as your first service to Paragon City. Their strongest heroes all sacrificed themselves in the battle against the Rikti, and unfortunately the remaining heroes were nearly drained of all power in the battle; thus, they fight valiantly to stem the tides of the Contaminated, but they are about to lose the fight. We need you to go wipe out enough of those infected to halt the progress of the virus. The downside here is that this world never reverse-engineered the portal technology - and so we cannot let them know that we are there. Because of that, you'll have to use only your weakest powers so you don't stand out too much. We've only got one shot at this; if you fail, the Contaminated will surely break out before you can restore yourself and get back to that world."
Now, because you're technically a brand-new hero to this alternate universe, you could be rewarded the badge, since it is technically the "start of your career" in that dimension.
So... any thoughts?
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THAT, I could get behind ... and I might even be a bit jealous of the pre-I2 characters who got to run the mission. Heck, I'd be happy if the mission were allowed for anyone, but the badge was limited to the pre-I2 hero. (More on that, later!)
But, here's an alternate suggestion for you: the Contaminated in this alternate word are in danger of breaking loose, because they're just THAT little bit more powerful than those in "our" Paragon City; there's just no chance that a wee, level-1 newbie going through the tutorial would have a chance against them.
Throw some story-twist into that: have your hero showup, and save his own level-one alternate's backside from a "Contaminated+" attack, explain the situation (hey, if you can't trust "yourself" with the secret, you're in deeper trouble than you thought!!). Then ... team up with yourself (the NPC-you gts boosted to one level below you, as if he were sidekicked), and go do a series of missions together. For the sake of "fun", I'd even say ... make the alternate-you a "pet", with full MM controls. Give non-MMs a taste of what it's REALLY like to be in the driver's seat. ^_^
NOT exactly the same as the Outbreak we all know and love, mind you - park some high-tech labs in there, where the stronger strain is being MADE. And populate it with Fifth Column! (Hey, why not, right?) A bit of a "blast from the past" for the pre-I2's, and a "woah, so THAT'S what I missed" moment for latecomers like myself.
Now, yes, I said "a few missions". I'm thinking of this as a Task Force, not just a simple mission. Yes, with it's own seperate, anyone-gets-it badge ("Re-Isolator" ... ^_^).
For us post-I2's, it's just a new TF with a DARNED NEAT story to it (including being able to "SK yourself", heh), and a fun badge.
And, here's the catch ... you don't need Peregrine Island or Portal Corps ...! You need Paragon Dance Party ...! ^_^ That means, you could even have it be a Hero/Villain cooperative strike-force - the heroes get to stop an Outbreak (again), the Villains get a sample of the improved virus!!
For the pre-I2's, it's all that ... AND a chance to earn the original Isolator.
Mechanically, here's what I see being needed, aside from setting up the TF itself:
[*] Datamine to find the pre-I2 characters; award them an "invisible badge" as a placeholder;[*] Make it so the "Contaminated+" mobs are not the same as the Contaminated in the Tutorial. Kill 1, or kill 1,000,000,000 ... it won't do ANY good;[*] set the TF to also award "Isolator" to anyone with that invisible badge, replacing the invisible badge, upon completion of the TF.
... and that's it. ANYone can do the TF, ANYone can earn the NEW badge ... only pre-I2 characters can get Isolator "after the fact".
New, enjoyable-by-ALL content. New badge. Chance for the old-timers to correct a minor injustice done to them.
Win-win situation. I could get behind that fully and completely.
P.S.
There are some that would object even to that - my mate, for example, wouldn't even like that, or ANY way for pre-I2's to get Isolator. In her words, as mine earlier - "what about US, and the Event badges?"
I can see her point, and honestly, I agree - but the above scenario is one I would at least find palatable, albeit not preferable. I'd still prefer you guys remain S.O.L. for Isolator, and be given a "Golden Age" badge instead. No offense, mind.
So why is it it seems that a lot of people feel like pre-I2 toons shouldn't get Isolator? That whole "Well if they can get Isolator, we should get the event badges". No you shouldn't get the event badges, by the time those badges came out there had to be some magazine ad you saw about CoH, you weren't playing then, that's your problem, not pre-I2 people. That might sound mean, but it's the truth. Now if the devs want to put the Halloween badges back in there (for example) and you have to earn them like the others did then that's fine, but no one should be given the badge cause they weren't playing then.
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There are some that would object even to that - my mate, for example, wouldn't even like that, or ANY way for pre-I2's to get Isolator. In her words, as mine earlier - "what about US, and the Event badges?"
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What about you? Pre-I2 toons were there before badges were started and didn't have a fair chance at a badge, now THAT is unfair. Frankly they shouldn't be punished because they started playing from Day 1. I myself have only been playing since December, so I don't have Celebrant or the Halloween badges. Do I think I should be allowed to get them? No, I don't, I wasn't there so that's my loss, and anyone else who doesn't have them shouldn't ask for them. That's a totally different situation than with the pre-I2 toons.
Even if they get the badge by not earning it I wouldn't have a problem with that. I'm not going back on what I said earlier about if you didn't earn it you shouldn't have it, for all we know the pre-I2 players with toons pre-I2 would have done what was needed to get the badge.
I say the devs should either just give them the badge or give them a chance to earn it, that would be the fair thing to do.
Remove the isolator badge.
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So why is it it seems that a lot of people feel like pre-I2 toons shouldn't get Isolator? That whole "Well if they can get Isolator, we should get the event badges". No you shouldn't get the event badges, by the time those badges came out there had to be some magazine ad you saw about CoH, you weren't playing then, that's your problem, not pre-I2 people.
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In response: when I2 came out, "you could have re-rolled your character right away and gotten Isolator. You had an entire month to level such re-rolled charactes up, before the first event even happened. Then you could have had every badge, with ZERO special treatment."
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That might sound mean, but it's the truth. Now if the devs want to put the Halloween badges back in there (for example) and you have to earn them like the others did then that's fine, but no one should be given the badge cause they weren't playing then.
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I wouln't expect to be just GIVEN the badges, but you have to admit - if "you" (in the sweeping, generalist sense) get a special mission to go back and get Isolator, why shouldn't someone like "us" (also in the generalist sense) get a special mission that provides an opportunity for THOSE badges?
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Even if they get the badge by not earning it I wouldn't have a problem with that. I'm not going back on what I said earlier about if you didn't earn it you shouldn't have it, for all we know the pre-I2 players with toons pre-I2 would have done what was needed to get the badge.
I say the devs should either just give them the badge or give them a chance to earn it, that would be the fair thing to do.
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I would prefer te status quo was maintained, BUT, the scenario I've agreed to above would be ... let's call it "the scenario that would offend me least". Mainly because, well ... at least I would get another badge and some new content out of it, too.
I'm sorry the Developers decided to put a badge solely in teh Tutorial, with no city-wide special event planned to let post-tutorial characters have a shot at the badge. I'm sorry the developers never thought to provide some OTHER means to acquire the badge, "way back when".
But that doesn't change the fact that just handing it out, willy-nilly, goes against the grain of earned badges - and giving ANY sort of "oops, you missed it, here's a second chance" setup for ANY limited-opportunity does leave a sour taste in the mouth for many of us who missed OTHER neat badges with limited acquisition opportunities.
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Remove the isolator badge.
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.... when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.
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So why is it it seems that a lot of people feel like pre-I2 toons shouldn't get Isolator? That whole "Well if they can get Isolator, we should get the event badges". No you shouldn't get the event badges, by the time those badges came out there had to be some magazine ad you saw about CoH, you weren't playing then, that's your problem, not pre-I2 people.
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In response: when I2 came out, "you could have re-rolled your character right away and gotten Isolator. You had an entire month to level such re-rolled charactes up, before the first event even happened. Then you could have had every badge, with ZERO special treatment."
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There's already a precedent.. "Privateer" badge. Sky Raider skiffs were added in response to player requests. The devs so far havent introduced any system to this game that punishes for any past effort. That some (in a lack of faith in Dev reasonableness) chose to reroll is entirely their own choice. It was not one forced on them.
Datamining cannot be done on any pre-Issue 2 kill-x badges. There was no counter in place at the time.
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That might sound mean, but it's the truth. Now if the devs want to put the Halloween badges back in there (for example) and you have to earn them like the others did then that's fine, but no one should be given the badge cause they weren't playing then.
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I wouln't expect to be just GIVEN the badges, but you have to admit - if "you" (in the sweeping, generalist sense) get a special mission to go back and get Isolator, why shouldn't someone like "us" (also in the generalist sense) get a special mission that provides an opportunity for THOSE badges?
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That is indeed a case of 'missed the boat' Isolator is one of 'the boat's still in the harbor and passengers are still boarding'.
Now, if it were a case where you were here for the event, and did not receive an bagde because it was poorly implemented, then I'd be right there saying you should get it. If for whatever reason *YOU* the player missed the boat, then no, sorry shoulda been here playing.
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Even if they get the badge by not earning it I wouldn't have a problem with that. I'm not going back on what I said earlier about if you didn't earn it you shouldn't have it, for all we know the pre-I2 players with toons pre-I2 would have done what was needed to get the badge.
I say the devs should either just give them the badge or give them a chance to earn it, that would be the fair thing to do.
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I would prefer te status quo was maintained, BUT, the scenario I've agreed to above would be ... let's call it "the scenario that would offend me least". Mainly because, well ... at least I would get another badge and some new content out of it, too.
I'm sorry the Developers decided to put a badge solely in teh Tutorial, with no city-wide special event planned to let post-tutorial characters have a shot at the badge. I'm sorry the developers never thought to provide some OTHER means to acquire the badge, "way back when".
But that doesn't change the fact that just handing it out, willy-nilly, goes against the grain of earned badges - and giving ANY sort of "oops, you missed it, here's a second chance" setup for ANY limited-opportunity does leave a sour taste in the mouth for many of us who missed OTHER neat badges with limited acquisition opportunities.
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Then you should have paid the fare. WE did. My scenario allows new content and an opportunity for *everyone*. Certainly, my goal is for me to get something out of it. Any suggestion made on these forums has that goal by the poster. But, it also allows everyone else to as well. It repairs an inequity made against older toons.
Last, in response to 'remove Islotator from the game', the devs wont implement something that knowingly punishes a player.
~Liberty~
The LEGION (CoH) - The Fallen LEGION (CoV)
Forget your fears and want no more
50's - Renkoro, Remorseless
~Virtue~
Angry Angels / Jaded Angels
Global - @Puretone
Best......Reply.........EVER!!!!
FMA owns all lol
But on the subject, I don't see how Isolator, and the halloween badges and winter badges are the same other then kill x. Yeah once ya leave outbreak you can't go back, but technically, Isolator is still around and not taken away in a sense.