Pamprin_Ninja

Firstly, kudos to BAB for his thoughtful explanation of the current state of affairs regarding the potential customization of powers. An example, once again, of the extraordinary and unique relationship that exists between the development team and the players in this game.

Secondly, I for one would advocate that efforts be made to provide customizable powers (most likely in terms of their colour tint, and potentially particle effect and possibly animation choice.) I would advocate for the following reasons:

1. Numerous MMOs exist that are analogous in one form or another to CoX; and few allow the player to directly control their appearance (outside of equipped items, say) let alone control the visual appearance of their 'powers'. This innovation would be another positive reason to hold CoX distinct from its competitors.

2. It is an often-requested addition to the game, asked for by a potentially sizable number of players since release if not before. I'm not trying to imply that every long-standing request should be satisfied; but certainly, satisfying a long-standing request will be warmly-received by the playerbase.

3. Players have repeatedly demonstrated a love of customization for their characters. We have seen the introduction of capes, auras, the CoV wardrobe, wings, and now weapons. These have all been positively welcomed by the community; even though they do not directly correlate as 'content' in the zone / mission / taskforce etc. sense, one should not underestimate the time a player is willing to put in for purposes of perfecting the appearance of their character.

4. Power customization would extend not only to player characters, but also to NPCs. Something as simply as colour tinting would help differentiate between any number of enemies that use the same power. Little things like this can go a surprisingly far way towards relieving the unfortunate sense of repetition that can present itself in an MMO. One only has to look, for instance, at the way CoV breathed new life into the franchise simply be recolouring the instanced-mission interiors.

From the perspective of a programmer, I can readily understand the sheer depth of the issue and the enormous task it represents; however, as I argue above, it appears to me to be a worthwhile undertaking. (Furthermore, I would politely rib the designer that did not have the presence of forethought to bake the hooks for such a system directly into the game at conception. )

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Pax_Arcana threw out a great idea:
Throw some story-twist into that: have your hero showup, and save his own level-one alternate's backside from a "Contaminated+" attack, explain the situation (hey, if you can't trust "yourself" with the secret, you're in deeper trouble than you thought!!). Then ... team up with yourself (the NPC-you gts boosted to one level below you, as if he were sidekicked), and go do a series of missions together. For the sake of "fun", I'd even say ... make the alternate-you a "pet", with full MM controls. Give non-MMs a taste of what it's REALLY like to be in the driver's seat. ^_^


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I just thought I would add, I love this idea! ^_^ Not only is it fun for non-Masterminds to enjoy some of the remote-control aspects, but this could also be a really great way to 'advertise' different ATs within the game - not thought of rolling an MM, or a Brute, or a Blaster, or a Defender? Well, here's a test drive... do you want to roll one now? Maybe you would like to go pick up a copy of City of Villains today? ^_^

As a further aside, implementing the MM control system for an NPC should be relatively easy. I say *should*; there have been issues in the past that I thought were relatively easy to deal with, and Cryptic have stated otherwise. I'm not sure if this means I have unreasonable expectations; or if the Developers are human beings with human foibles, and occasionally make mistakes. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Anyway, the control system... it might need to be simplified a little; but on the plus side, it could also be extended for use with *all* ally NPCs, which would be a nice bonus. ^_^

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Now, yes, I said "a few missions". I'm thinking of this as a Task Force, not just a simple mission. Yes, with it's own seperate, anyone-gets-it badge ("Re-Isolator" ... ^_^).

For us post-I2's, it's just a new TF with a DARNED NEAT story to it (including being able to "SK yourself", heh), and a fun badge.


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This is much my thinking. ^_^ If there is any plan - any plan whatsoever - to inject a mission, or TF, of some kind in order to award or allow the awarding of the Isolator badge to players - then it's only fair and appropriate that the same content serves as a regular mission to everyone else. ^_^ Hmm, I need a campaign slogan... "Content for all?" ^___^

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And, here's the catch ... you don't need Peregrine Island or Portal Corps ...! You need Paragon Dance Party ...! ^_^ That means, you could even have it be a Hero/Villain cooperative strike-force - the heroes get to stop an Outbreak (again), the Villains get a sample of the improved virus!!


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Yep, totally. ^_^ I keep forgetting that we have Pocket D now serving as an interdimensional nexus to wherever where; it's not necessary to do this stuff via Portal Corps. as we have our very own gateway to everywhere serving that role instead. ^_^

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There are some that would object even to that - my mate, for example, wouldn't even like that, or ANY way for pre-I2's to get Isolator. In her words, as mine earlier - "what about US, and the Event badges?"

I can see her point, and honestly, I agree - but the above scenario is one I would at least find palatable, albeit not preferable. I'd still prefer you guys remain S.O.L. for Isolator, and be given a "Golden Age" badge instead. No offense, mind.


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Random aside; the idea of a "Golden Age" or similar non-Isolator replacement badge is kind of fun; the only problem I can imagine is the complaints from the old-timers (potentially myself included) that rerolled their characters in order to get Isolator the moment I2 came out! ^_^ There's no pleasing all of the people all of the time, eh? ^_^

As for the Event badges... well, now we have several catagories of badge, I would surmise, based on their availability. You've got the badges that are:

* Available all the time: (Defeat X, history badges, etc.)
* Available in certain missions: (Spelunker, War Wall Defender.)
* Available in the tutorials: (Isolator, Jail Bird.)
* Event badges: (Halloween Badges, Frozen Fury.)

Event badges seem to be a whole other matter of interest; it is possible to get every other badge by rolling a new character; but the event badges are a one-time bus analogy. ^_^ What I find particularly interesting is this: whilst the events themselves took place only once with no promise of repeated future antics, they have also been tied to real-world annual events. (Halloween, Xmas, Valentine's Day.) So to that end, the real-world events are repeated each year; would it be appropriate in that context to repeat some of the in-game events too? (which would also make most use of existing and otherwise dormant game assets.)

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Zydane added:
Ok, I don't know much about datamining, but I do know you're over thinking this idea you just said. Why are we worried about after I2 getting the badge, if they're looking for a specific date then have a program run for example something like

Search Dates "1-1-02" through "12-31-02"
(not sure when I2 came out, just using this for example)

Ok there's the dates it searches for account creation

Now the hard part would be knowing which toons were made before the date I2 came out, not sure if they keep track of that, but if they do then just use the same example above on the accounts that match the search criteria, if the toon was created before a certain date, then that one and one only should get the badge.

Yet if they don't keep track of toon creation then that could cause a problem.


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Well, I don't know if I'm overthinking it. ^_^ I'm just trying to illustrate the inherent problems in datamining; especially as, having been used previously to solve a couple of problems, it is now (mistakenly) viewed by some as a sort of miracle cure. And that's an impression I'd like to alter, if only by means of showing some of the possible steps that might actually take place in a datamining operation. ^_^

I think we are both on the same page in regards to the idea that should there be no character creation date, than using datamining to award the badge becomes if not impossible, at least an infinately trickier prospect. I think the crux of the matter is - and I do not have first hand knowledge of the CoX databases to back this up, it's just a reasoned guess - that personally, I don't think the character creation date is something that is recorded. And I would be quite happy to discover I am wrong about this. ^_^

Hey Pax. ^_^

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A regular mission opportunity as you describe does not limit the "go back and get it, after all" opportunity to Pre-I2 characters only; it throws the gates wide open for anyone to go and get it again.


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OooOoo, no, I think maybe there's a misunderstanding. What I'm saying is more along the lines of "Look, if we are going to at least put together a mission to make Isolator available again, then that mission should also double as usable content for everyone else." You don't get the badge for completing the mission; rather, it's a mission in which there just so happen to be a lot of Contaminated that you can use to get the badge.

My thinking is, it's self-defeating to make content unavailable without good reason. (Branching storylines = good reason; arbitrary date limit = bad). And to my mind, if any content is made specifically to address this situation, it would be wholeheartedly hypocritical to then prevent *everyone else* from accessing it.

Also, if I understand correctly, I think you'd want this to be available only to pre-I2 characters... which, as stated in the earlier discussion concerning datamining, may well not be something that is possible to test for. ("Have you got the Isolator badge already?" yes / no. "When was this character created?" Uhh... do we have that information?)

Now, having said all that; I was completely unaware of the matter of the 'dueling monkies' in the Snaptooth mission. To that end, considering some of the other weirdness that goes on in and around Pocket D, it may well just be a case of dropping some Contaminated appropriately into a particular setting. So there's potential for even less effort involved in the solution.

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I object to any such change of text, also.

The entire point of Isolator is that it is the FIRST in-game opportunity to earn a badge which a character (made post-I2) can earn. That is intrinsic in it's very existance. To change the text and eliminate that reference would destroy the badge itself.


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Well, I don't think it will be *quite* that cataclysmic. ^_^ I do understand though; that there are many possible solutions, they almost all will require that the text be updated in a manner that basically renders it somewhat more generic; and this would undoubtedly take away some from what it is that makes the badge special.

There's a couple of other questions to be raised here. Whilst it may be possible to find a solution that does not require changing the badge, it doesn't seem awfully likely. Therefore; should the badge be changed? More importantly; is the argument against change one based on maintaining a status quo? (e.g. the SWG combat-system argument.) What would be the ramifications of such a change; widespread revile, or joyous celebration in the quarter of the non-Isolators?

But really, I think it's the status quo argument that is the interesting one. On the one hand, the SWG incident is highly compelling; despite the fact that the change in the combat system was much needed and critically heralded, it was none the less cited as a chief proponent in mass subscription migration - primarily because players were not willing to accept a radical change in the system they knew so well. Essentially, upsetting the status quo - even in a good way - resulted in a marked revenue decrease for the game.

On the other hand, the Isolator badge is of considerably less importance than something as fundamental as combat mechanics; and furthermore, whilst one could describe the badge as 'a fun Easter Egg', it still stands as an issue of some contention on the part of the older contingent of players. Like I said before; why bite the hand that feeds? And yet at the same time; would making the badge available be a surefire way to decrease alt rolling and potentially, subscriptions?

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Any opportunity for anyone to get Isolator post-tutorial must, IMO, meet these four non-negotiable criteria:


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Let's roll. ^_^

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It must be limited, solely and exclusively, wihtout exception, to those character who never had the opportunity to earn Isolator the "approved" way - meaning, those created before Issue 2;


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I'm not even sure if this is going to be feasible; basically it depends on being able to track the creation date of each character. Maybe that information is in the CoX databases; maybe not. Who are we to tell? But certainly, without it, this may be a bit of a non-starter.

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It must require EFFORT to acquire - effort commensurate with the effort of killing 100 level-one Contaminated with (at best) a Security(1)/Combat(2)-levelled character;


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I don't know about the exact number; I think we were talking earlier about how some of the badge requirements are, well... just a bit high. But putting that aside, I do believe and agree that whatever effort goes into achieving the badge at second showing should be identical to the degree of effort required first time around.

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It must be a one chance only, no re-attempts allowed scenario; once you leave the "do-over" mission or whatever, you must not be allowed to return (ideally, there would be a hospital IN the mission, of course);


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Hmm; I don't know. What if you get DCed? It's one thing to miss the bus because you couldn't be bothered to get to the stop early; it's another thing entirely when the bus drives off a bridge.

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It must involve precisely zero alteration to the existing badge text.


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"You began your career on a high note, by personally ending the riots of contaminated thugs in the Outbreak Zone." I just don't know if that is something that is going to be possible. But there are forumgoers much better at this stuff than I, I'm sure they could think of something. (Perhaps the mission in the case could take the form of a 'personal flashback'?)

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And the last one, well ... because I'm willing to be a complete d*ck and protect the accomplishment of a coupleof my heroes, who DID start their careers on the described "high point"; I want the badge to CONTINUE to ascribe that very achievement to the badge-wearer.


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I admire your honesty. No, seriously. ^_^ This very much reminds me of the talk about the Zookeeper badge also; there are those that want the bar lowered, because it's too difficult to reach; and there are those that want it to stay exactly where it is, as a testement to their own ability. You can't have any kind of measure of excellence without a division between those that can and those that can't.

...

I just erased four paragraphs of why it is I'm idelogically opposed to the manner in which Isolator gains its... for want of a better word, 'exclusivity'. I realised I was falling into the same rut again - talking about what I feel is 'right and wrong', rather than what is best for this game, and for the players. ^_^

Personally, I would still like to move the discussion more towards the realm of "How is this going to benefit or harm the game, its players and its finances?" rather than how my personal principled take on this situation is more valid than anyone elses. I simply don't have enough support in my own righteousness to warrent further discussion on the matter through the lens of my own beliefs.

Heck, if you are familiar with the Landmark Forum, then you might have heard this - or something like this - before:

People want to be happy; but more than that, they want to be right.

Hmm, so... what would be the best solution outside of our own personal feelings of what we believe in and what would be the way we see as 'right'? What would be the best possible solution in terms of the customers, the game, and the Developers?

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Foxtail jested:
Ok. after reading through, I will agree on only one condition.
Make the tutorial PVP.


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Best. Idea. EVAH.

Now, a couple of points:

First of all, if any pro-Isolator solution is going to go forward, then it has to fulfill certain requirements. For one, it needs to be quick and easy to implement. (Despite the heated debate in-topic, the badge is proportionally quite a small part of the CoX world.) There have also been some criticisms raised about the safety of allowing higher-level heroes back into tutorial zone, as there is potential for griefing and other such problems. (Not much potential, but it's there.)

Finally, and this is a matter of personal taste; but the solution should most likely take the form of a 'regular' mission, in which it just so happens that Isolator is available. I say this for two reasons; firstly, as I expressed earlier, it seems self-defeating to lock out content where there is no logical reason (i.e. branching) to do so. Secondly, to create a mission *only* available to the non-Isolator crowd could be construed as rather hypocritical in light of discussion on how that very same group cannot access the Isolator content.

Now, an important point:

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BallLightning shook mightily:
The badge itself needs to be changed. I fully support that and would like to see that since it's NOT fair that our pre-badge era toons were left out of the chance to get it. However I don't want it in its current form...


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The badge is quite descriptive; "You started your career"... The badge is very clearly tied to a particular time and event; in order for any solution to go forward, the badge text needs to be changed. Some would argue that to do so would make the badge more generic and less rich in mythos; I'll leave this particular point for others to debate.

Now, possible solutions:

Datamining: Unfortunately, datamining is not a reliable means in which to instigate changes in the MMORPG sphere; it is, however, extremely costly in terms of time and resources. I can say this with some confidence, as I have witness large-scale datamining operations at hand; although I think the 'two-year' estimate Positron once threw out to be possibly a bit exaggerated, it still takes an enormous amount of time and effort to process so much data.

On top of this, it is entirely possible that the information in question simply cannot be determined by a datamining operation. In order to mine the badge successfully, we would need to establish the following sort of process:


What date was the character created?
Is it before Issue 2?
If so, then award the Isolator Badge.


Now, the problem here is, the creation date of each character might not be recorded in the database. Therefore we need something more complex, such as:


What date was the master account created?
Is it before Issue 2?
If so, locate all characters on this account.
For each character, award the Isolator Badge.


Now we've got a problem. First of all, the process has become much more imprecise; characters created *after* I2 may be awarded the Isolator badge; furthermore, one must process *all* characters for each eligible account; this drives the processing cost upwards. And what if it transpires that the 'account creation date' only refers to the last time the account was active; where does that leave players that were here before I2, left, and then came back again?

Datamining has it's uses; unfortunately, it is for the most part a very inefficient means for backwardly determining awards. I think such time could be much better spent providing a tool to customer service reps for awarding badges; a providing an automated online form for such a task; at least they would be much more precise in their aim.

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Auto-examplaring: I get the feeling that whilst this would potentially be the easiest solution to carry out (provide contacts to auto-examplar and teleport the player to Outbreak and back) the Developers would very likely be unhappy with the idea - again, because it has potential for grief-makery. It might not seem like much; then again, nobody really foresaw the stacking tendencies of mobs being used against them, or the use of Teleport Friend as a means by which to make other players permanent watch-tower denizens.

Basically, players are quite capable of being ingenious and mischevious; and even if there is little potential in being able to grief the newbies in their own zone, there is certainly a great deal of lure in at least attempting to do so.

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Time-travel: The more I thought about this, the more I realised it's not such a bad idea for a mission; the only caveat is that any sort of time-travel story needs to take place an instanced variation of Outbreak, rather than the actual tutorial zone.

In fact, the more I think about this, the more I see potential for a very fun mission with very little overhead. Let me envision...

The mission would revolve around a pentad of NPC superheroes; esteemed in the eyes of many, and praised by the people of Paragon for their prevailing protection from the forces of opression. For want of better names and backstories, I shall hertho refer to them as The Pentad, and their five individual members - Blastsploitation, Scraptastic, Defending Counsel, The Tank, and their wise leader, Controlling Interest!

Mighty heroes all; but they were not always this way. Going back in time, the Pentad were like you and me - green around the edges, unsure of their place in a harsh world and new to the city of Paragon. Before they became the awesome superhero juggernaught of justice that we know and love, the Pentad were new arrivals in the Outbreak containment zone.

And that is where their arch-nemesis, The Galling British Scoundrel, will strike! Having finally acquired the Tea Of Time Itself (authors note: I'm just having some fun here ^_^) and is using it to travel into history, kidnapping a vital member of the team during their first mission in Outbreak and luring the remaining team members into an elaborate trap - the very fate of the future of some of Paragon's most celebrated heroes rests in the balance!

It is up to our intrepid hero to travel via time-portal to an instanced Outbreak - there they will rally the Pentad, taking the place of the kidnapped member. (Which just so happens to be the same AT as our player... isn't that a handy but easily-coded coincidence?) Our hero journeys through Outbreak, leading the inexperienced Pentad team to a disused building teeming with Contaminated working under the thrall of The Scoundrel.

Did I mention there's a lot of Contaminated? It's a good thing you've got the remaining Pentad to back you up. Go go ally AI!

(As an aside, I'm not sure if it would be better to ramp the level of the Contaminated up to the level of the hero - under the guise of being 'Super Contaminated' - or whether it would be more appropriate for the hero to be auto-examplared down, on the basis that "No one may suspect you are really a hero from the future".)

The player and their new teammates must fight their way from the start of Outbreak through to their eventual destination - a building on the far side of the zone - and then through the corridors to finally rescue their friend and defeat the villainous Scoundrel. The future is saved! And all in the name of good fun.

Now, mind you, there's no reason why we can't just drop a bunch of Contaminated into a portal mission, but reusing the Outbreak zone could be a very fun way of doing things. Add to which, it still doesn't require much effort. The team AI is already available, as are the maps, and the Contaminated. It's just a case of putting everything together, and as an ordinary mission, it has the potential to be very memorable. (Compare and contrast with the 'cape' / 'time capsule' mission.) Change the badge text to something a bit more generic (or maybe a tongue-in-cheek nod to the circumstances under which the badge was collected; "You started the career of the Pentad"... ah, but that's more work.)

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Conclusion: Okay, I've had my fun playing backseat developer. ^_^ The point is, a mission solving the Isolator issue needn't be a bad thing; in fact, it could be a great deal of fun for everyone, and an excellent display of the team AI mechanics. (Or it might highlight their failings, but this isn't something I'm overly qualified to consider.) Plus it adds to the ever-growing backstory of Paragon - it could, for instance, be tied to the Ubelmann arc. And there is no reason that a very similar mission could not be created for the Villain side of things, whereby a rogue hero travels back in time in an attempt to assassinate a particularly eminant villain. The posibilities in this respect could well be endless. ^_^

There's my thoughts for now. Hopefully they'll help steer the conversation back into the fun stuff, instead of the whole "I think the Isolator badge should be available to all" / "You want the moon on the stick!" / "I like that you can't have the badge" ideological malarky. ^_^

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The_PMD is always consistantly interesting:
The reason is that they don't want all the content available to every toon. Every player, yes. Every toon, no. They clearly want us to roll alts and have a unique experience with each alt. You can see this attitude in almost everything done in this game.

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I think you are right when you say that the Developers want us to roll alts; it's a time-proven way in which to stave off the endgame and all that it entails. And furthermore, we naturally expect a different experience with each character we create; altoholicism is a means with which to inject replay value. And replay is, inherently, the idea of reusing existing content in order to keep the player and keep them paying.

(Heck, why did they invent hi-score tables if not to pursuade arcade-goers to drop another quarter in the machine?)

Now, I think this is perhaps where our interpretations diverge. I think the idea of replay is concomitant with maximizing the use of content; whilst it may be necessary to occasionally make content unavailable (i.e. you can't go down both branches of a decision) it would be self-defeating to lock out content unnecessarily.

Personally, I feel that the badge system exists outside of the logical branching structures in the game; to make a single badge unavailable - on something as arbitrary as a character's creation date - seems like a measure counter to the replay concept. (Not to mention the already well-tread subject being counter to the ideals of the completist badge-hunter.)

Finally, I would add that under the premise of increasing replay in CoX, it would be quite beneficial to enable a 'flashback' mode. Now, doing so would seem, at least potentially, to be at odds with the idea of "...all the content [being] available to every toon." But this is where I think that the 'Kheldian' mindset comes into play; that it is easier for the Devs to enable playing through the existing content, than it is for them to create another 50 levels.

(And as a final note; I am shooting in the dark on this, but it would be my guess that so far, the only reason 'flashback' has not yet been implemented is because of either technical problems, or because of exploit potential. Surely, if a player wishes to actively go back to previous levels and essentially spend their time there unproductively (at least in terms of XP), then this is something to be encouraged as a worthwhile timesink?)

Wow... just wow. I go away for a weekend, and when I come back it's like a war has broken out! >_< Anyway, there's a lot for me to catch up on here, so...

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I asked, and The_PMD answered:
I don't agree with that. I don't think completist badge collectors are the only ones who appreciate badges. I love badge collecting. But Im not one of those collectors who feels that I must have EVERYTHING to make collecting worthwhile. I'm not a completist, and you're automatically equating "collector" with "completist." I used the Veruca comparison because Veruca just wanted. She had no reason for wanting, she just WANTED. I won't go into a long diatribe about why I have such problems with the completist attitude, but, in short, I think it's a damaging mindset that should never be encouraged. And, yes, "I WANT" and "I deserve" sound almost the same to me.


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Eek! ^_^ Sorry to give you that impression; I certainly wasn't looking to generalize. Really, what I'm saying is that there is - to my mind - a percentage of the playerbase that collects badges simply for the sake of collecting them; and playing into that is, indeed, a completist attitude. Now, I opine that if the largest consumer of the badge system is the completist demographic, then to lock certain badges as a result of questionable design is effectively biting the hand that feeds.

Now, having said that, I've also hopefully made it clear by now that an answer to this matter will only be effected by what amounts to, for want of a better phrase, market research. Nothing fancy, just a random sampling of the characters without Isolator:

1. Do you like collecting badges?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No

2. Would you like to get the Isolator badge?
[ ] Yes
[ ] No

3. If yes, why would you like to get it?
[ ] I like the badge
[ ] I like the title
[ ] I want to round out the collection

(Obviously, this is anything *but* a proper survey; I'm just trying (and hopefully suceeding) at illustrating a point here.)

Now, if it turns out there's a demand for putting in some sort of pro-Isolator mission, then it makes sense to put it in. (Unless there's a well-reasoned argument that the resulting player satisfaction will be balanced by a drop in subscription numbers caused by people rolling fewer alts, or somesuch.) Furthermore, if it turns out that a good majority are looking to get the badge simply to add to their collection, then there is an issue with the current badge system - as it would be working counter to the desires of it's greatest consumer.

My thinking is this: the badge system is, one might say, a collectible item system. Only instead of getting hand-numbered Babylon 5 Commorative Dishes, you've got pretty icons and titles instead. As with any collectible item system, there are those that are motivated to get just the few items that they like; and conversely, you have those that will collect the whole set just to have the whole set. (I can't profess to understand the latter, and I *am* the latter, but there you go.)

All I'm saying is, barring a good discussion otherwise as to how CoX would be adversely affected (i.e. the aforementioned subscription drop / lack of alts problem), it seems like playing *against* those completionist tendancies is somewhat self-defeating. That is, of course, if the completionists are actually a sizable number. If it's just me and Emerald_Fusion, it's probably not quite as important. ^_^

Just as an aside; and I know you said you wouldn't go into a long diatribe... but... why do you have a problem with the idea of the completist? I mean, my reading of the character of Varuca Salt was that she was spoiled in the sense that anything she wanted, she got. Digressing here, one supposes it depends - do you consider 'greed' to be uncontrolled want; or is more akin to massive over-indulgence? I favour the latter idea; but if I may be so bold: would I be right in thinking you see it more as the former?

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But what about the subsequent badges that have been limited time? My main technically could have had Isolator (had I know about it) but never could've gotten the first Halloween Badge. But that's part of the idea of creating a unique experience...no two toons wil have the same things available to them. I LIKE this approach. I think it's good that very few toons will be able to have all the badges. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of badge collecting at all.


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Well, there's a couple of things here. I do think that we are all coloured by our own experiences and motivations. I'm not trying to be confrontational here (there's far too much thoughtless arguing going on in the thread as is) but when you say "It doesn't affect my enjoyment of badge collecting at all"... that's sort of it, isn't it? I mean, I'm glad for you. ^_^ But at the same time, it *does* affect my enjoyment of badge collecting; in fact, it's had quite a severe effect on it. I don't even collect badges with my two alts; I can't see the point.

You might say to yourself at this point; "That's a bit of a overly severe reaction, isn't it?" Yeah, sure it is! ^_^ But it's still the reaction I've had, and it doesn't strike me as one beneficial to my subscription. Again, my question is: are there a lot of people like me? If there are, it could have a negative impact on the game. If there aren't, then the status quo rules.

Now, as a second aside - I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of making each character's experience more unique. I totally agree! I mean, sometimes I get a bit jaded seeing that same bloody warehouse one too many times ^_^; how must it be for the altoholics out there, doing the same *missions* over and over again for each alt? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that why Cryptic introduced a mechanism to skip Outbreak in the first place?)

I'm all for the unique; branching mission paths, Origin-specific missions, AT-specific missions, AT-specific sub-missions... the possibilities really are endless. But is this something that should extend also to the badge system? I don't think so; but like I said, I harken the idea that a significant percentage of the population could be of the "Gotta catch 'em all!" mentality. And again; if they are not? Then the status quo will rule. ^_^

[ QUOTE ]

you're in luck - it's gained during Katie Hannon's Task Force. Yes, that's right - during a TF. Meaning, you're auto-exemplared down when you join it. If you can deal with doing a tough TF, and doing some of it in a very careful, specific manner, you too CAN get "Ten Times the Victor".


[/ QUOTE ]

I think just for ease of use, I'm going to be looking towards the idea of flashbacking the entire zone. But if I can get back into playing on a regular schedule, and re-establish my social circles, then the idea of doing the whole thing in an appropriate TF / exemplar setting is quite appealing. ^_^

[ QUOTE ]

Okay, you're ... what, a Brit? Or an Aussie? Hmm ... *racks brains about british sports* ... liken it to ... Cricket? Yeah, Cricket. Or Soccer, that's big overseas too. ^_^


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Hehehe, first guess was good. I'm an expatriot Brit. ^_^ You'd be surprised how many people seem to think I'm an American that puts on an accent to sound cool though... or the other old favourite, "Hey! My daughter can do a really good impression of you! Don't be embaressed honey, talk British!"

As for the Sox... man, that's some *loyal* fans right there. ^_^ Maybe what they lost in waiting for that World Series victory, they made up for in the comradre of continual defeat?

[ QUOTE ]

Banks, schmanks. Museums, that's where THAT action's at ...! ^_^


[/ QUOTE ]

And a villain is born! ^___^

[ QUOTE ]

For Isolator - I'd cut it down to, oh ... 20 or 25 Contaminated.
For Toy Collector ... 25 presents, tops. Maybe add on further iterations for the TRULY-obsessed (at 50, 75, and 100, say).
For Event-based badges ... not limit it to logging in, just flag existing characters on active accounts to receive the badge WHENEVER they first log in.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, agree, agree. One hundred Contaminated is just... silly, at level 1. And even just cutting Toy Collector in half is a vast improvement, plus a darn sight more attainable. An hour doesn't seem like a bad time sink for a particular badge; two hours upwards is where it gets into the "Hmm, not so sure about this" territory.

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Yep, that's the way to go about it - don't ask, but quietly HOPING is kosher.

Also: I've done a "drop everything and rush to help a stranger", when someone called for help with their capemission in COH; y'see, not the week before, some new SG mates of mine had powered through that mission on their 35's for me (after we suffered a TPK the first time through, on our trio of 20's). Thus ... "pay it forward"; I' gotten a hand-hold through the mission, it was only right to pass the good karma along. ^_^


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Yep, that's what I did on the Valentine's missions, and it paid instant dividends. Not only was I able to hit Snaptooth four out of the five times with him being set to a lower level (yay sidekicking!) but I also got to do the Villain missions with my new found evil buddy... and it all started out as "Woah... these CoT are a bit strong, can someone help me out?"

[ QUOTE ]

My route was soemthing like twenty presents, over in Port Oakes. Some were usually nabbed by other folks making their own runs (or just strolling by), so I only averaged fifteen "tags" per cycle. Took me over an hour, on an alt that NEVER slowed down or stoped - only paused to let the present opening not be interrupted!

And I'm so generous, I posted a description of it on these very forums, once I'd finished runningit myself. ^_^ Maybe someone else has Toy Collector as a result of that; maybe not.


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I managed to find a good run through Talos Island, maybe fifteen presents (although a lot of them kept getting collected by other people, so I'd only get, say, ten on each run.) But on the plus side, I was completely ignored by the Snow mobs. And I know what you mean. ^_^ Bounce, open, bounce, open... wait a minute, this is beginning to sound like that Janet Jackson incident...

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I'll tell you what the WORST thing of Toy Collector was: teamign up didn't do you any good, except make the frostmen more survivable. For a team of five people to get the badge for each of them? ONE THOUSAND PRESENTS, that's what it'd've taken.


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Yep. Wisdom in preventing people from receiving XP unless they are in range? Plenty; stops a good deal of the more irritating-variety powerlevelling. (You know, the kind where people sit around in the tram station spamming "SUM1 pL ME PLZ".) Now... 1000 presents to open? *shudder*

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Has anyone considered rolling a new hero, doing the whole tutorial EXCEPT THE LAST MEETING WITH THE FINAL CONTACT ... and then teamign with a friend's L50 main ... before happily heading off to bash Contaminated skulls?


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Yeah... and it's a no go, so far as I know. >_< I don't think cross-zone kills count anymore (I'm not sure if they even did to begin with), more's the pity. It's a nice thought though. ^_^

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Richter_8_6 quietly and wisely asserted:
Thus, when the devs look at it, both sides are going to be equally balanced on the issue, because neither side has provided any conclusive evidence as to whether the idea is good or bad. It's going to come down solely to their decision (as do all things in the game).


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This is sort of what I'm talking about. ^_^ There's a lot of people shouting about how their (pro-Isolator) way is better than the (anti-Isolator) way, or vice versa... but there are very few people actually taking the time to divorce themselves from their gut feelings and actually state the merit of the position. Hopefully more people will perk up and start talking about the advantages and disadvantages they think are offered by their stance; as opposed to what is wrong with everyone else's ideas. ^_^

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Icecomet vented like... a mighty venting thing:
Having it the way it is now is like a big F-You to people that participated in beta, paid for the preorder cd, paid for the CD and subsequently have had faithfully paid subscriptions for the last 2 years. So, because I was one of the first to pave the way (and, ultimately one of the few faithful from those days that have stuck around), I have to be penalized for not farming something that didn't exist at a time when skipping the tutorial wasn't an option. Umm, k.


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I have to say that this is a very good point; putting aside all of the pro / anti-badge collecting / completionist thoughts right now, there still remains the fact that when the original badge system was concieved, it divided the older and newer players unfairly.

From the perspective of customer relations, essentially preventing an older customer from having access to a newer feature that equally new customers can enjoy is, well, a good way to offend the older customers. And generally, that's not a smart thing to do - as older customers are more often than not, a good source of positive word-of-mouth publicity.

Just from a customer service perspective, instigating some sort of small Isolator-related mission would be a good way to make reperations. At the same time, Cryptic clearly has limited time and resources; inversely, with each passing month, a couple more veterans close their accounts - so this is very much a time-based problem. (One surmises that either this particular problem be dealt with now, or ignored until it will effectively go away of it's own accord.)

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Puretone, everwise:
After Striga was implemented and Terra Volta then sprinkled with skiffs o plenty, were the badges gained by the TV trial alone somehow cheapened? Were people saying 'I quit, they cheapened my badge.'?


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That's a great point! ^_^ An actual example whereby a set of particular badges essentially had their requirements made somewhat easier to fulfill; and as a result, the player population were generally, as a rule of thumb, happier. And not all that objectional. So it certainly seems that (a) it is possible to have Cryptic enact for purposes of making a badge more generally available (i.e. the Sky Skiff situation) and that (b) this does not have to result in a "Well what about *my* 10,000 Monkey heads?" scenario.

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BallLightening spake:
Now that that's out of the way... see my other post a little ways up about how they SHOULD change the badge (remove Isolator in its current form) to make it something that CAN be rewarded to pre-badge era toons and still make sense.


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I think you are right; that whatever changes could be made, they will almost all require the matching badge description to be changed also (as obviously, it is very specific to the Outbreak setting.) I imagine that the reason it has not been talked about more extensively so far is simply because most people are taking this as a given. ^_^ (Well, those proposing a pro-Isolator change, anyway. ^_^)

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TheSpeedingSkull made a drive-by posting:
This happens to be the primary argument for all those that want the badge. Its been said before far more eloquently, but it bears repeating. If I have been playing this game actively since open beta without any lapse in my account and have been running the same toon without deletion since the head start event (who only happens be level 40, I might add. I like seeing ALL the content), shouldn't I at least have a chance to earn this badge? I don't care if the odds are so stacked against me that the requirements for earning the badge are near to impossible, so long as their is a remote chance for even one more shot at it, I'd be happy.

Older players need some lovin' too.


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Simply... eloquent. ^_^

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LiquidX once more:
No. No its not a big "F-you" to those of us who pre-ordered. Because, y'know, funny enough I have a prestige power that those who *didn't* pre-order can't get. I got to experience the Rikti Invasion and they didn't. Hell, those of us with CoH for a year were able to get into the CoV beta without even having to pre-order CoV. So this whole "ZOMG THE FAITHFULL SUBSCRIBERS ARE BEING SCREWED!" complaint is total bunk.


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Except, not all of us were here with the pre-order. Some of us were here three days after the game went live, and we didn't get the pre-order Prestige Sprint (I forget specifically what it was called. ^_^) Same again on the Rikti Invasion... And yeah, some of us with over a year's worth of subscription were able to get into the CoV Beta. Although it was done in waves, and for some of us, that just didn't work out so well. >_<

Personally, I think you are right in the sense that the Developers are certainly not 'screwing' the older players; they have proven themselves to be nothing but friendly, well-meaning folks with an awesome little game on their hands. ^_^ But because of a decision they made, a situation has arrisen in which the older players are the ones that are effectively penalized. I personally just think it was a short-sighted design decision, and that it can be rectified easily enough.

I mean, what's better at this point: to continue to hold off on reworking Isolator, or putting a very minute amount of effort into heading off a situation that does nothing but generate negativity? Just a thought. ^_^ If all that comes from supporting a new Isolator effort is good, then why fight it?

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One of the more common complaints from people on the forums is that simply choosing new powersets is not enough to justify playing through the game. New things to do are needed. The way I see it is that (In my opinion) two important things need to be done:

1) It needs to be impossible to get every single badge on one character.

2) It needs to be impossible to do every single mission with one character. (Or be unable to experience the full scope of the mission if exemplered down/sidekicked up)

What *I* ultimately want to see are branching story arcs, with badges that can't be obtained if you have a different badge.

For example, lets say you have a Contact named... John Jacob Jinglehymer Smith, who asks you to find out what the freaks are up to. The Story arc at some point could branch with a choice. Say, either going to "interrogate" a Freakshow for information, or instead taking a coded message you located to a cryptogropher to decode it.

Your choice would lead to one of two completly different endings, different temp powers, and ultimately a different badge depending on which ending you recieved. Once you got one, you would be unable to get the other for that character.

In the end, I think that would help *improve* the game.

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Well, I admire your interest in improving the game. ^_^

I have to disagree with the idea of preventing people from getting every badge; but I know my judgement in this issue is coloured. I believe that the badge system is of most interest to the OCD badge collectors, such as myself... and that to make the badges, to some degree, unavailable to such people would offend their OCD sensibilities and counter their interest in being merrily... um... 'timesunk'? ('timesinked'? 'timesunkered'?)

Now of course, if I represent a very small minority of players, then indeed your suggested division of the badge system could potentially be the way to go. It's not like Cryptic can hope to please all of the people all of the time; so trying to please the most people in a way that makes them subscribe for longer seems like a very sensible business plan. ^_^

Personally, I wholeheartedly endorse the promotion of an alt-based approach; after all, that was the very concept behind the Kheldians, ne? Building another fifty levels of cotent is a gargantuan task! It's much more practical to give players a reason to play through the first fifty levels... The question now: should this be something we endorse, or something we enforce?

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Puretone tossed in:
The same arguement could be said the other way around. Does granting a way to get Isolator for those that want to impact anyone elses gameplay?

If it was made into a mission or as part of a TF would it lessen or improve the content?

Would creating such a scheme cause someone to throw their hands up in disgust and leave the game?

The same answer as yours in my opinion.

P.S. I can think of one person that would come back, honest.. (ok, so he *does* have OCD but he *would* come back.)


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It's okay, I just think I didn't explain myself too clearly to Pax_Arcana. A recent study threw up the statistic that as much as fifty percent of online, text-based communication is misunderstood, as human expression forms such an important but underated and little-understood part of dialogue. Sometimes these things happen. ^_^

But certainly, you raise some very good points. Reintroducing Isolator does not really impact anyone else's play; and the addition of a mission - any mission - is a mission addition. It is more, improved content. ^_^ Some people might not like the idea, but I do not imagine it would cause widespread dissent.

Now, the event badges... that's a whole other can of worms right there. ^_^

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Mna_Grok threw in:
With all due respect, I remember reading the post by one of the Devs where they said that.

One character is not supposed to experience all fo the content.


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I believe I remember that, and I also believe that it was Statesman that said it. However, we also know already that this is something that is true; early-level content is segragated by Origin. (Which personally seems like a great way of doing it.) And as I recall, there were plans to expand this Origin-specific stuff to higher levels.

I think what some of us are saying here is, whilst that might be the case, we do not feel that segragating the badge-specific content in a similar manner has the same sort of positive and beneficial effect on the game, basically because the chief consumers of badge content abhore missing badges.

Now, keep in mind, we have no numbers on exactly what percentage of the population collect badges, or are OCD about it sufficiently to react negatively towards the missing stuff. So maybe the affected group is so small that it's a moot point; inversely, maybe the badge collectors and are sizable group that warrent some attention.

Wow, there's a lot for me to catch up on here. ^_^ I hope nobody minds if I don't reply in entirety to their comments, but it seems like that's a lot of ground to cover.

Firstly, Beef_Cake:

Unfortunately, I don't think the exemplaring system was created to allow players to go back and access content they may have otherwise outlevelled (although it did have that additional side-effect.) Exemplaring was, indeed, brought about as a kind of 'reverse sidekick' facility; i.e. it allows a higher hero to team on the level of a lower hero. Having said that, Positron did - at one point - show some support for the popular 'flashback' notion, even going so far as to adopt the term 'flashback' itself from a forumgoer that originally suggested the premise.

As I understand it, the flashback premise is currently dead in the water; however, then again, so is the SSOCSS. Therefore, I am much more inclined to believe that this may be a result of such issues as time, resources, and techinical implementation difficulties.

I would say that as it is possible to pick up souvenirs and badges by exemplaring - a practice that could have been cut short by Cryptic - that at the very least, they do not mind people revisiting missed content. (If anything, they went to some lengths to try and ease problems exemplared heroes suffered with the TFs.)

The crux of this particular debate would appear to be: do the Developers want you to be able to go back and revisit missed content by sending the same character 'back in time'; or do they want you to experience that content with a reroll or alternate character? The answer to that - being cynical - most likely lies in whichever answer offers to keep people subscribed the longest. (Bearing in mind that overall player satisfaction can have quite some bearing on the matter.)

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I like Pax_Arcana ^_^:
Whereas I am opposed to any scheme that says "here, here's everything in the game - you get ALL of it, regardless of what choices you make." I'd rather one's choices had an impact on how the game plays out for you, and on what you "have" at the end of it all.

I'd also like the results of each choice to be reasonably balanced against each other, so that no one choice was inherently "better" than another, of course. The developers having decided that limited-opportunity badges - including Isolator - will never be prerequisites for full Accolades, shows that they share the same value as I hold, on that front at least.


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We aren't that inwardly dissimilar in our respective approaches. I agree; I don't want to see everything just handed to the player. What I feel is that the opportunity to experience the content should be given freely to everyone; whether or not they grasp that opportunity is up to them; but it should be there. With Isolator, for instance; it seems very unfair to me that in many instances, when the player is finally ready to grasp the opportunity (i.e. they now understand about the badge system) it is a futile endevour, as more often than not they are ready long after leaving Outbreak.

But let's be fair here. Everything I describe in the above paragraph could be preceeded with the words "I believe that"; and what that tells me is, I'm injecting my own personal motivations into the matter, and framing everything else around them. It's what people do. Nonetheless, though it makes for entertaining debate, it doesn't really progress towards a real solution.

It seems to me more like...
"This is my stance."
"Well, this is my position."
"Yes, well, I understand. But this is my stance."
"Your right, it is. But here is my position."

It's all very cyclical. ^_^

What I will say is, I like your idea for more branching material; especially if it has a shaping effect on your character. ^_^ I think where we differ is that I do not see badges as being part of that system. I feel it should more readily effect the story... but here's another problem. In a game where there is (intentionally) very little we can do to alter our characters (costume, powers, temporary powers, enhancements, accolades)... what kind of lasting perminence can one effect as a result of choice?

[ QUOTE ]

Well, consider this: do you really think that anyone who made their character pre-I2, and who is not currently playing, would come back ... just to get the Isolator badge ...?

Conversely, do you honestly believe that those pre-I2 players who are still here, will suddenly up and leave en mass simply because the policy of not ret-conning the Isolator badge in for them does not change ...?

I'd say the answer to both questions, in the majority of both cases, would be a firm and clear NO.


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Oh, absolute not! But I fear I didn't make myself clear. >_< I don't envisage anywhere *near* such an extreme situation occurring. What I'm saying is more like this:

"How much time and effort would it take to make these badges available?"
"Having done this... what percentage of players actually care?"
"Of this percentage, how many will actually be happy?"
"Will they have longer subscriptions because they are happier?"
"Will they have longer subscriptions because they are going back and experiencing content they previously missed?"
"Or will their subscription be shorter because they are rolling fewer alts?"

This is what I meant; these are the questions I feel we should be asking. ^_^ Putting aside our own feelings of what we consider to be 'right' and 'wrong', and looking at the greater ramifications such changes could have. I think that by talking about how we feel things should be, we ignore the more important subject of what implications such changes hold.

(If there is one unfortunate caveat to this approach, it is that we are dealing with hypotheticals and also, we really would need to see some rudimentary research to shape our ideas. I mean, what if sixty percent of the playerbase desperately wants to see Isolator given a second-chance? What if it's only one percent?)

[ QUOTE ]

Could be worse; you could've been on AOL. I was. O_o


[/ QUOTE ]

Aaaaah!

[ QUOTE ]

Both can mean a great deal to me. Anyone sporting "Ten Times the Victor" ... well, I've read how tough that badge cab be to get, so, they have my respect for the accomplishment of acquiring it. ^_^


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Yes, I've heard about that one. ^_^ One of the ones I've not gotten; unfortunately, Croatoa was introduced after I made level 36; I'm not even sure if there is a *contact* that I can to talk to in that place. I'm waiting for flashback on that one. (On the upside, being 36 made dealing with those Frostlings a lot easier. ^_^)

[ QUOTE ]

Back to my analogy: the World Series is an annual event. Post "being idiots and trading Babe Ruth away", the Red Sox winning the World Series was not an annual event - it was just about a bloody miracle.

Cold Warrior has, so far, become an annually-available badge from "a Winter event". However, Frozen Fury hasn't been brought back,and may never BE brougth back.


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Hahaha, yeah... those Sox. ^_^ *continues to feign understanding of American sports* ^_^ You are quite right; the Winter Lord was *not* the event, he was just the... featured performer for that year? It would perhaps be better for me to say, I would like to see him return year after year, both for my afore-stated selfish badge-collecting reasons, but also mainly because I (a) don't see the point in wasting game assets that already exists and (b) I belive it would add a greater depth to the event in question. (A sort of "Well, each year we'll bring back everything from before, plus something new!" approach.)

[ QUOTE ]

Quite possibly. Maybenext year we'll see a more-sanely-implemented Winter Lord, and Frozen Fury will again become available on an annual basis. The fact that it would still be somewhat limited (people who didn't EVER play during the Winter Events would still not be able to get the badges - say, a HS student not allowed to play COH/V during the school year?) would retain some of it's ... well, call it "nifty-ness". But yes, some of that "nifty-ness" would fade, because it would o longer be impossible for new iterations of that badge to be handed out.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's true; to make the big guy available again as a target would indeed reduce some of the luster on the badge. Maybe that's the price we pay? But I totally agree; it's not as if he has to be available around the clock; just when the weather turns cold. ^_^ My apologies for inferring otherwise.

[ QUOTE ]

(Honestly, I could wish for the Year-of-award tobe included in any badges that return year after year - because then, maybe you'd have "Cold Warrior '04", "Cold Warrior '05", "Cold Warrior '06", "Cold Warrior '07", "Cold Warrior '08", and so on .... all on the same insanely-long-lived character! How's THAT for braggin' rights, eh? ^_^ )


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True! That would make for one insane badge list. ^_^ (Seperate note; I wish the badge tab on a player's ID was orgnanized in something more aesthetically pleasing than a single-file list.)

[ QUOTE ]

I'd rather see them numbered, myself. For reasons I believe you have managed to "grok" by now. ^_^ (Besides, that'd just mean that the old-timers couldhave many extra badges ... heh!)


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I grok. ^_^ Even if I feel like a stranger in a strange land... heh, no, seriously though. The more badges, the better! (And although Positron has said he forsees no immediate changes, I would certainly think that this approach would warrent a better method of organizing the regular badge list too.)

[ QUOTE ]

To be honest - neither do I. But you don't gorw up in or near Boston, and not come to understand some, at least, of the Red Sox plight.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think I understand the curse of the Red Sox a little better now... thanks for taking the time to explain it. ^_^

[ QUOTE ]

*grin* Any opportunity to brag / show off, even if only via text ... ^_^;;


[/ QUOTE ]

Do I detect a new addition to the Rogue Isles... "The Numismatist"?
(Well, everyone needs a reason for robbing banks.)

[ QUOTE ]

LOL. Or maybe "Nerf Me" (think "Kick Me" signs taped to their backs).


[/ QUOTE ]

"Kick Me" would be awesome!
Maybe "Bat-Proof"? Maybe not... sounds too much like something Adam West would drink.

[ QUOTE ]

Or better, they could have just awarded it to every character in the game at that time. I agree that the developers' decisions relating to when, where, and how to award particualr badges has not always been perfect - but then, they (like we) are merely human.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, absolutely. If there's anything I'm thankful around here for, it's how human they are; there have been several occasions where Cryptic have proven their mettle by backing down or apologising where needed. I don't think some of the playerbase realise just how good they've got; anyone that's tried to get a patch problem solved of late in the world of WoW might know what I'm talking about. "EvanM"; now with 150% more abuse!

As so far as their decisions regarding the awarding of badges... I do think that on a couple of occasions they have shot for numbers that are well... a bit too high. Rikti Monkies, presents, and Snaptooth all come to mind. I think what has caught people's imagination with Isolator is that it is possible for a character to never, ever, even get a stab at it. That always struck me as almost gamplay bug-esque; but then again, they've got a lot to do in Los Gatos, and they know how to use their time there better than I do. ^_^

[ QUOTE ]

I'd do that myself, without hesitation, solely because it's a critical component of an accolade - and I firmly believe in "good karma begets good karma". ^_^


[/ QUOTE ]

And proving that; when I did the mission with one of my alts, and got a couple of exemplars onboard; afterwords, they dropped 700,000 influence on my character. I never asked for it, they just wanted something to say thank you. ^_^ Karma!

[ QUOTE ]

Well, I had the time ... but was strongly disinclined to BOTHER. The only character I have with Toy Collector is Xaotic, my Nin/Nin Stalker. And he only has it due to thehappy combination of a Jet-pack for rapid transit (he was level 8 at the time),and HIDE ... swoop in, invisibly grab the present whileignoring the frosties, swoop out. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Fifty presents would have been MORE than sufficient, IMO. Perhaps even somewhat less (thirty?) ...


[/ QUOTE ]

I hear you. Two hundred was just... I'd put it this way. Some of the badges we get, we get because we are fools that will obsessivly engage in repetitive behaviour for the sakes of a bauble. ^_^ However, our patience for such repetition is not infinate; and two hundred presents taxed that patience greatly.

(It was bad enough that so few presents actually contained something that wasn't animate snow; but with the long respawn on the things too... I hate to think how horrible it must have been for those that did not find a good 'route' to follow.)

Heck, someone threw out twenty as a number; that seemed quite appropos to me.

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Mna_Grok delighted:
It is this one of your questions that I think is the kicker. Other then making it a flashback or exemplar-type mission, all the other options require a fair amount of work.

Remember, if you do Isolator in Outbreak, there is really no danger in failing it, all it takes is time and effort. When you fast-forward your hero to L50 and do the same mission, you have some serious balance problems. If you balance for an uber-wimpy defender, the scrappers and blasters will walk through it with no real effort. If you balance it for the scrapper/tanker, the defender will have to get help to finish it.

Also, at what level do you make the mission available? 50 is out, why punish the people who haven't gotten their toon to 50 yet? You think the outcry over Khelds being limitted to players with a 50 is bad, wait 'till you do something like this. As you lower the level of the mission, you end up with serious balance problems.


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Trust me, I understand. One of the problems with any forum like this, is that you get a lot of backseat game developers. Now, nothing wrong with that, I count myself amongst their number ^_^. The problem, per se, is that with any group of people that profess an interest in something, some are more skilled than others. Conversely, some have less skill. Some have a *lot* less skill.

It's to that end that we see a great many solutions - not just the Isolator badge, but with ED, and whatever else might grasp people's imagination - that are simply overwrought, unworkable, impractical or all three. That is not to say that a potential solution has to embrace these particular undoings, but a good many of the proposals happily do so anyway.

Personally, so far as the Isolator badge is concerned, I say, throw together a quick Portal mission, drop in some contaminated, let the heroes go at it. Objective: arrest one hundred Contaminated. (Sure, you can make it something else, but I'm just going for the basics here. ^_^) Background doesn't have to be any more involved than "Here's a place / alternate dimension / Paragon neighbourhood where the Contaminated got out of hand." Bang! Done. Honestly, I'm not talking out of my backside on this, throwing together a mission of this nature should not be a difficult or time-consuming task.

As for the matter of appropriate level and balance... I think that level 40 is a good level to set the mission, though some may disagree. I think 50 is a bit extreme; but 40 is a good place, because around 40 even the most novice players get at least a bit clued into the deeper mechanics of the game. Someone might disagree with me here... I say, go for it! I'm sure there are some really great thoughts on what constitues an appropriate level setting, and to me, that seems like something much more worthwhile to discuss than, say, who's being the biggest jerk. ^_^

As for setting the mission appropriately in terms of different ATs... well, that strikes me as something of a non-issue. I say that simply because, if there is a problem in the later levels making the Isolator mission two easy for one AT and too difficult for another, then that very same problem is going to express itself in more or less every other high-level mission.I will say thought that whilst it may well be making the entire endevour too easy, there's a certain charm inherent in the idea of making all of the Contaminated enemies remain at level 1. ^_^

Also, you are right about the Kheld situation... but I think that it is possible to add in an Isolator mission without causing the same degree of outcry. Furthermore, perhaps it could be a non-level specific contact that gives the mission? That would certainly help matters; although we begin to move towards a greater degree of effort involved as a result.

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Puretone added:
And the long version was nicely put.


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Aww, thanks. Stops me from thinking I turned into a ramble monster. ^_^

...

Okay peeps, I've got places to be, so if this thread continues to live, I will rejoin it tomorrow. Good evening to all! ^___^

Just a thought... if you don't feel reading the long version. ^_^

What are the real-world implications of making Isolator (and potentially event badges) available in a non-limited fashion? Is this something that is going to dry the revenue streams of the Developers? Will it require a work effort that far supercedes the reward offered? Will it cause unhappiness in the general player population, or will it cause widespread joy? Will it increase or decrease the number of rerolls and alts and if so, is this a good or bad thing?

These strike me as the questions we should be asking and debating if the matter is to have any sort of resolution whatsoever within this small corner of the community and yes, I'm quite aware that it's all bloody-well moot anyway. ^_^

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Emerald_Fusion TYed:
Thank you Pamprin! Excellent!


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You're welcome. ^_^ The point stands too... putting aside some of the other anti-Isolator etc. arguements, nobody here is demanding the earth itself be moved just to make a badge available in an ongoing manner. We are really asking for a very small amount of effort... one that also seems appropriate as a means of reversing a so far quite disliked design decision. (i.e. introducing Isolator knowing full well it would not be available to the older characters generally ill-informed newer players.)

And secondly, even if you already have the Isolator badge, introducing a small Portal mission is giving everyone in Paragon another little slice of content with which to occupy themselves... it's not like this is something exclusive to the badge-hunting crowd we are proposing. In fact, I'm thinking that there's a good chance quite a lot of players are going to get a real kick out of facing off against the Contaminated once again, in much the way that it's fun to revisit the Clockwork King later on in the game. Plus, it retroactively strengthens the backstory of Outbreak. Not a bad return for throwing together a few pre-existing assets, eh?

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Pax_Arcana replied:
Ah, but MMOs differ from thigns like Super Mario in this way: new content is always being added. There's always another event to look forward to (or to be surprised with, like the Valentines Day event kinda did - no advanced fanfare, just "oh by the way - have fun, guys!").

I think that enhances replay value. Sure, your first Hero didn't get isolator, and DID get lots of the Halloween badges. That was then, this is now - your NEXT hero can get Isolator, and won't gtthe Haloween badges. Already, right there, wihtout looking at Origin, Power Sets, choices WRT TFs and the like ... your experience with the game will be different.


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You are quite right there; MMOs are indeed a very different beast. And furthermore, I am only too aware that my own expectations of how a game should work do not gel perfectly with the MMO genre in particular. And you are quite right; it is entirely possible to interpret the creation of two heroes - one 'then', one 'now' - as representing two divergent playing experiences, just by looking at the divide in badges. That is, technically, a different experience second time around; and therefore should incite replay value. ^_^

Now, I'm going to digress a little, but I hope it makes sense. ^_^

Psychologists have spent a fair bit of time looking into the condition of human reasoning, and one of the interesting conclusions some have come to is the idea that most human beings are slave to their unconcious - at least so far as decision making is concerned.

Effectively, a human being will make a decision - driven unconciously, almost on impulse - and then they will begin the process of adding a framework of logic and reason to support their decision, often entirely ignoring rational fact where it cannot be integrated into ideas. Quite simply, people think that they arrive at a conclusion by a process of considered and logical thought; whereas the thruth is, they create their conclusion and then work backwards.

Think of a heated argument you once had with someone; I'm sure the more time you had to think about it, the more reasons you could come up with as to why you were in the right... right?

I said I was going to digress. ^_^

Now, I don't mention this to invalidate your ideas or thoughts on this particular matter. I will say quite clearly - I am human, and I too am subject to this process of conclusion-then-reasoning. What initially started out - in my mind at least - as well-rationed thought became the target of greater introspection. Now, I realise that whilst some of my arguments have merit, they are primarily motivated by two concerns:

1. I am a perfectionist, and in turn a completist. I want to collect all possible badges, for the sake of having all possible badges.

2. I am greatly opposed to the idea of any content, within a game, being made permanently unavailable. (Except, obviously, once the game is 'complete', i.e. everything there is to do, is done - as games are humanly finite. Furthermore, 'finite' is perhaps not the best term to throw around so far as an MMORPG is concerned, but certainly, as I'm sure the clamouring end-game content-crowd will happily tell you - sometimes it is possible to do almost all of everything. ^_^)

I would not blame you if, at this point, you wonder where I'm going with all of this. ^_^

We all have our own unconcious motivations. Mine are above. ^_^ And we have certainly we have talked about the idea that one-shot badges being made readily available once more would create a 'cheapening' effect for those that already own them. (I think your comparison to a coin mint / market situation was quite succint on this point. ^_^) Simply put, to have something in limited supply is a good thing. ^_^ I'm no pop psychologist, but there we have a motivation - that to you, there is a special quality inherent in a limited supply model.

I point this out because I am afraid that if we do not look at our underlying motivations, we are in danger of simply going around in circles. We can be very polite about it, but nothing comes of a discussion (at least I generally find) we are able to understand, *really* understand the opposite side. What I am not afraid of, is to say that I do not understand your side of the discussion. But I do not say that as a critique of your arguments; rather, that my own inability to understand is derived from the mental block that I hold. I am however *willing* to understand; and I would much rather see a proposed solution crafted that addresses the concerns of all (to the best of our ability).

Which is funny, considering how much of this is moot anyway. ^_^

Essentially, what I hope for is more of a directly-logical discussion on the pros and cons of the solutions being thrown about, in terms of some established goals - such as, would such a solution make more players more satisfied with the game, or less? Would such solutions increase the game revenues, or decrease subscription durations? Is it going to ultimately lead to better numbers for Cryptic and a happier population of people can go back and get their character a badge... or if they reroll an alt and get it with them instead?

This, I think, is what really needs to be talked about. ^___^

As I recall, from reading about the badge:log the character in during that month, and get the badge. It's a point of "yeah, I've been playing this character for a loooong time"; a '50 with Celebrant impresses me slightly more than a '50 wihtout that badge. The "With" is obviously an old hand, who's been playing COH for quite a while now.

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Ah, but you see ... I don't have that badge. Never will, either. I wasn't part of COH back then ... I didn't even have a computer that could THINK of running COH at the time, and as for ISP ... lol ... I was still on 56.6 dialup (at best), right up until this past september.


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Hahaha, no, I totally understand! ^_^ I was on 56k too for the longest time, and it was through NetZero too. (I don't know about everyone else, but I found them to be just a terrible, terrible company. Personally I'm (weirdly) for outsourcing in the sense that the world is globalizing anyway - but for pete's sakes, if you are going to move your entire customer service operation to a country that does speak, as a primary language, that of your customers - then make sure your new employees are bloody well fluent before giving them what is primarily a communication-based role!) And after that, I had to switch my machines around... so now I'm running CoH with an Intel onboard video solution. O.o

As so far as the Celebrant badge goes... I was there, and collected it on my three characters. (Did I mention that already? I felt like I did... weird deja vu moment, sorry.) I think it struck me particularly because compared to many of the other event badges, it just didn't seem that 'special', in terms of the requirements needed to acquire it. But I also think this particular line of thinking came about because I saw 'special' as to mean 'requiring a great feat to acquire', whereas I can see now that you use the term more to describe a limited supply situation. ^_^

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But those beads aren't specific to the year in which you went to Mardi gras. And Mardi Gras is every year, not "once and once only".

So a better analogy, IMO, would be ...oh, heck, how about (since I'm Boston born and bred) your tickets to the World Series, proving you were there when the Sox finally won the darned thing again.


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See, I knew if I brought in an analogy, it would be 'amended'. ^_^ Hehe, nah... I realise now that when someone modifies another person's analogy, what they are really saying is "Hey, you see the situation like this... but this is how *I* see it." And I see what you are getting at, too; that Mardi Gras is indeed an annual event, as opposed to - say - the Winter Lord event, which has so far taken place all of once.

I think where we diverge here is that I don't see a "Winter Lord Event", so much as an "Xmas Event". Does that make any sense? That essentially, in my eyes, the Winter Lord is as intrinsic and annual (in Paragon) as Christmas trees and candy canes. Similarly, I was rather surprised that they did not bring back the Winter Lord this year (which adds some credence to your view of you things, so far as they are in line with the Dev team, mayhaps) - but this may have also been driven by the "Winter Lord XP Farming Frenzy Bonanza" incident.

So, to try and turn the discussion a little more along the lines I discussed earlier... To me, at least so far as the Winter Lord is concerned; to never reuse that particular piece of content just seems somewhat inefficient and wasteful. I think we are all quite aware by now that Cryptic has (understandably) limited resources, and the time of the Developers is at a premium; therefore, we do not want to waste their time. This is why some would argue against paying any particular attention to the Isolator badge, purely on time and effort grounds.

At the same time, there is a marvelous giant monster that is currently gathering dust. And certainly, repurposing and reusing content is a great deal more efficient than building it entirely from scratch. Sure, we could chalk this one up to some wayward design (mistakes do happen but still; is the situation worth salvaging? And if so, surely players will want to see a badge attached to such a creature?

At this point, it seems to me that the question is more on of "Should we have Celebrant (1) / Celebrant (2) / Celebrant (3) set of badges?" versus "Should we have a (generic) Celebrant badge?"

As for the baseball analogy... I'm sorry, I really don't know that much about baseball or the World Series! ^_^

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Or, a truly more direct parallel - in the military, being part of a military operation in a specific theater, during a specific span of time, gets you a service ribbon for that place/time/etc. The only folks sporting service ribbons for Desert Storm are the guys who were THERE - even if they were "only" supply clerks sitting a hundred miles or mroe behind the lines. Doesn't matter if you were a 20+ year career soldier, or a wet-behind-the-ears kid fresh from basic training ... if you were playing in that particular sandbox, you get the ribbon for it. They were there, "on the day" if you will, and that's all it takes.

Guys that retired three months before then, or who weren't deployed to Kuwait? No service ribbon. Doesn't matter if they're bloody Generals with more political connections than you could shake a stick at ... no service ribbon. They just weren't there at the time.

That is what event-limited badges are like, IMO.


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Definately getting you now. ^_^ Like you said, once you've missed the bus, you've missed the bloody bus. By way of comparison... I agree, but I feel that if you wait for a while, another bus comes along. ^_^

So I think we see where we are each coming from on this. You espouse a degree of supply-related quality; whereas I believe that (within the practicalities of actually doing the legwork) that it is more important not to limit supply. Now the question becomes, which way is better for the players, the game, and the Developers?

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"Elite" is perhaps a bit strong of a word, but ... I'd say I see a certain value in the very fact that some badges ARE in limited supply.

Perhaps it will help you to understand this, if I point out that in my youth, I was an avid (if horribly naieve and amateur) numismatist. Er, that means "coin collector". I still have a few of my early prizes,too ... hung onto because of their relative scarcity, and/or the interesting historical relevance some have.


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Yeah, 'elite' is definately a bit too strong... but all the way through this post I've struggled to come up with a better term. So far, "supply-related quality" is the best mouthful I've managed to create... all suggestions gratefully welcomed. ^_^

Also, the example of numismatism did help me understand; thank you for raising it.

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For example - I have an extremely poor-condition coin, a copper disk about an inch-and-a-quarter across; it's an 18th century British copper penny. It's been physically abused (not by me, mind), and looks like it was hit in the middle with something - hit quite hard, because there's a sizeable dent (the fanciful side of me wants to say "maybe it was shot by something", heh). All told - it's just a dented disk of dark brown-black copper. The bit that makes it so special?

The date is "1_96", with either a 7 or 9 in the "_" spot; it's so worn down there, it's very difficult to see. I can tell you, though, that it is definitely a "7" there - because the name on the coin ...? George III. Yeah, the very guy the U.S. rebelled against. Kinda neat to have found that coin, here in America, nearly two hundred years later (at the time I found it tucked away in an old box from a flea market, anyway).

Of course, it's "just" a silly bit of copper, worn almost to unrecognisability, badly dented, and bearing the discolering patina of centuries of neglect and abuse.

I also have some paper currency, oneof which I particularly like;it's Austrian, from sometime around 1930 or 1940 - yep, it's worth precisely diddly as money, 'cause it's in Reichsmarks.

All 500,000 of them.

I like it 'cause it's a paper note with a face value of "one half million", PLUS, it has mild historical significance. In reality, of course, it's justone of many tens of thousands of identical piees of equally-devalued paper. (Inflation being what it was, I'd be surprised if that note would have bought more than a half a loaf of bread, at the time. If that much.)

...

But those two things, still consider to be special. There aren't that many objects of their nature in the world, and I - little insignificant unimportant me - happen to have them. That's incredibly cool.

I view "event limited" badges much the same way. It's like collectible coins ... if you mint more, they stop being worth as much. The value comes from their being in limited supply.


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This was extremely helpful. ^_^ There's not much for me to say here, as I will be retreading some of my earlier comments. Suffice to say, I have a much better understanding of your position, and I am thankful that you gave the time and effort to help me understand where you are coming from. ^_^ Also, as a side note, I hear those Reichsmarks used to make the most wonderful kites.

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You misunderstand how I respect someone with, for continued example, "Celebrant". I don't assume they're any good at the game ... but I become cognisant of the fact that they've seen thegame grow and develop for far longer than I have. (Or if you prefer, they have weathered more Nerf-Storms than I have. ^_^)


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Hahaha, yeah! I'm beginning to think they should have a badge for Regenners, "I Live For The Bat". But I understand; that to hold the Celebrant badge is essentially to carry a visible mark of (relative) veteran status. I think the problem in particular for me lies with the fact that one had to actually log in to lay claim to the badge; as has been mentioned, there are those players dating back as far as the beta that do not, for one reason or another, have the badge. In my mind, I would rather have seen the badge awarded to characters automatically via a data-mining operation; or even have it set so that any character from an account with a suitably-veteran creation date receives the badge the moment they log on. Unfortuntately, without thinking about the matter too much, I also suspect both posibilities are on the side of "More effort than it's worth."

Thinking about it, I suspect I have issues with Celebrant in particular more because of the way it was designed, handled and distributed, rather than anything else. And also, thinking about it... the badge actually has a very distinct number '1' as part of it's design. So I think your idea for a Celebrant (1) / Celebrant (2) etc. is very much the manner in which the badge will be awarded in future.

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I'd say this shows something:

You have the badges, and so, they're nothing special to you. Thus, you don't see any risk of a loss of value inherent in everyone having them.

I don't have the badges, and thus see them as something special - thus, I immediately become concerned that allowing "cheap knockoffs" to flood the market would cheapen the badges themselves.


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Hmm... it's definately an interesting idea. ^_^ Truely, I find that once I've picked up a particular badge, my thoughts turn not to how I am going to enjoy said badge, but rather, which badge is next on the list... Having said that, before or after getting the badges, I was unconcerned with any sort of 'cheapening' scenario. If anything, I've always tried to encourage as many people as possible to get the badges; be it by dropping out of a team and giving my spot to someone else for collecting Devilfish; or offering the infamous fortune teller mission to as many people as possible with no concern of monetary reward.

I just enjoy collecting the badges; and in turn I hope to amass the the most complete collection possible, simply for the sakes of having a complete collection. My thoughts as such turn mainly towards helping others do the same, irregardless of whether or not they had the same (time-based) opportunities that I did.

Another interesting point to make, just as I'm thinking about it... When I first started playing CoH, I had a good deal of spare time on my hands. I collected the badges, I had fun with the special events. ^_^ (Although the Halloween and Xmas / Winter Lord events were very difficult, as my two alts were still quite low level as a result of being Isolator-rerolled.) Now, over the last nine months, my time has evaporated to a premium. There have been times when several weeks alone can pass before I log in; I simply don't have the time to do anything else but work myself into an early grave. Sad, but true.

(Thank bloody heavens for things calming down this week, too.)

When Xmas 2005 rolled around, I went and found what information I could about the badges; and then I went at it. One badge for picking up a jetpack; another badge for completing the Heros versus Villains mission. Two badges! Excellent work. Log off.

Except, of course, there were three badges - I'd missed out on Toy Collector, because the information on it was a tad scarce. I only found out about it towards the end of the event, and promptly went to work opening the necessary two hundred presents (which, personally, I thought was something of a silly amount.) It took me just under two hours. And I simply didn't have time to do it with my alts too... so for the first time ever, I missed out on a badge with them.

Now fast-forward to Valentine's Day. I picked up the three badges for my main; and it was fun too, as I was able to do much of the missions alongside a really great villain. ^_^ Even Snaptooth wasn't too bad, as - after being horrified and beaten down by his super-hard third incarnation - I discovered I could keep him knocked down most of the time by throwing Air Superiority into the mix.

My alts?

Didn't even log in with them.

I mean, what was the point? I'm sure there are plenty of forumgoers at this point that think I'm being melodramatic and childish; they may even tell me so. And quite frankly, they may well be right; the idea of having "everything or nothing" is something that popped up in my childhood. (Not, coincidentally, in a Varuca Salt-esque setting.)

But the remaining fact is, as I stated earlier - I am a completist. I am a perfectionist. And to me, missing one badge - just one - is tantamount to failure. It is disheartening, and demoralizing. I want to know that if I play well, and take it slowly, then I can make it through to the end of the game with what amounts to a 100% record - but on two characters now, that is not - and never can be - possible.

So I could have been playing on for a couple of extra hours with my alts, just getting them the Valentine's badges. But I didn't. It no longer appealed to me. So instead, for the first time in a long time, I got back to levelling my main, and getting a little bit closer to the end of the game. I could have been busy entertaining myself with a well-crafted timesink... but not anymore.

Like I said, it's just a tad melodramatic, and bit childish. But I think the question here is not so much "Wow, what on earth is wrong with this person?" so much as "Just what percentage of population does this person actively represent?"

Therein lies to me the answer as to whether or not badges should be retroactively available.

Would it help, or hinder?

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Kungas displayed great understanding:
As for the latter, as a sometimes substitute teacher, you have my sympathy. But compared to the obviously HUGE amount of feeling the obsessive collectors are holding on this issue . . . it just doesn't justify denying them.

I don't understand why Isolator is so important - or why any badge without a power attached is so important. But the people who care most about badges, and there are a lot of them, want this.

Just let them have it.


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I don't think there is anything I can add other than, bravo. Not for agreeing with the aims of the pro-Isolator crowd... but for coming into a charged environment, keeping a clear head, and showing sympathy and pragmatic support to a group that otherwise do not conform to your worldview. em/ applaud. ^_^

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The_PMD answered:
It's honestly the attitude I hear from most of the people in this thread. "I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT!"

There's no other real reason why the devs should put this in. Some people think they are entitled to ALL the content in the game, and think they're being ripped off if they don't have access to it all. I disagree with you that this is a reasonable position. I think it's very unreasonable and unrealistic. This is an MMO...the devs are attempting to give us an ever-changing ever-expanding world to play in. As such, there is NO WAY that all the content would or should be available to every single toon. Toon and player are different. Isolator is available to every PLAYER: go roll an alt and get it. But to expect any one toon to get all the content is unreasonable. The devs are all but telling us this, and it's central to their concept of the game. Look at the evidence: They have limited edition badges. There are a wide variety of Archetypes. The character creation is the best part of the game. There is virtually no post-50 content. What does it add up to? THE DEVS WANT YOU TO ROLL ALTS! They don't want you to be able to do every bit of content with one character. The game is set up so that you experience all the content across MANY characters.

Giving Isolator to pre-i2 toons isn't going to happen unless the Devs fundamentally change their ideas about how this game is to be played and enjoyed.


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Hmm... I still think that 'Varuca Salt' is a bit harsh. She was the greediest of the greedy; a child spoiled rotten to the core. And I'm certainly not looking to stir the pot, but it seems to me that the louder, more brash responses had, so far, come from the anti-Isolator side of things. (Although to be fair, I am biased; also, it seems that in this respect, things have evened recently or even gone completely the other way with some more... 'impassioned' persons throwing their hat into the ring.)

Now, you raise some interesting points, and I don't think I am going to be able to answer all of them in this post. But I do look forward to talking about it a little bit more in future. Suffice to say, I think you are right that the Developers want to push forward altoholicism; after all, that was the very reasoning behind the creation of the Kheldians and whatever other epic archtypes may be coming down the pipeline.

Let's just say, I agree in principle to the idea that not every character is going to be able to enjoy every piece of content. That makes sense to me... I think the problem I have is that I do not agree with where the lines are being drawn that divide one player's experience from another. To expand on this...

To begin with, every player cannot experience all of the content. When you first roll a character, you must pick an origin; and that origin determines the first (five?) levels of content that you experience. There is no way, at present nor I doubt in future, to change your origin and enjoy a different... 'path' of origin-based content. And this is just the start; the Devs have been talking for some time about introducing far more origin-based material outside of that first introductory experience.

Heck, now players even get origin-based temporary powers to set out with! I never got that when I started. ^_^

However, and here is an important difference, I feel: we do not mind this so much; because there are no long-lasting implications of that early content. Irrespective of being a Technology Blaster or Magic Controller or a Natural Scrapper; one will still be able to enjoy the same task forces, collect the same badges...

To put it another way - despite this 'seperation of content', everyone is still in the same boat. This is something (as seen in my choice of formatting!) that I think needs to be strongly emphasized. I don't mind that you got to do missions only a Science hero gets to do; you know what? I've got some Mutant missions, and *you* don't get to do those.

There are no Haves and Have-Nots; just a Swastika-esque situation where all paths, though different, ultimately lead to the same destination.

I would *love* to see more path-dependant content. I would love to see more origin-specific missions, more AT-specific objectives... to me, that seems like a really great reason to go back, roll a new character and enjoy everything the game has to offer from a totally new perspective! Some elements of this approach are already to be seen in the Kheldian AT.

But this not the case with, to my mind, the current badge situation. What we have here is a problem whereby an activity - that I am almost *sure* is designed to take advantage of a certain anal-retentive (here's hoping the censor didn't just eat that) mindset - actively works against the very people it is aimed at. And it seems like a very small degree of effort need be expended to resolve this problem.

What I see - again, coloured by own experiences - is a problem where, at present, there is a group of first-class heroes, and a group of second-class heroes. And for an utterly arbitrary reason - the creation date - one group of heroes may NEVER attain something the other group has. You want to set it up so that the game provides replay value by presenting multiple content paths? Go for it! You want to give the game replay value by haphazardly and actively introducting uneccesary divides into the player population? Hmm... I can't say that seems like the best way of promoting a reroll-replay approach to me.

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The badge collectors can say over and over again how important having every badge is to them til they're blue in the face. This doesn't change the fact that the devs have made it pretty clear with the limited-time event badges that they don't care. They LIKE the fact that it's nearly impossible for anyone to get every badge, otherwise they wouldn't keep offering these special edition badges. The fact that some toons can't have them is the very thing that makes them special. So all you Veruca Salts are just going to have to deal with the fact that you can't have everything you want.

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You are quite right, in the sense that Developers have indeed said that they like things the way they are right now. Having said that, several decisions made on the Developer side of the fence have been reversed as a result of player input.

I think what (at least) some of us are saying here is, it's not in their benefit to make some of these badges so exclusive. I think that the greatest consumers of the badge system (and therefore the most... 'time sunk'?) players are those with a rabid need to collect each and every badge. Furthermore, their aim is to collect *all* badges; to miss even one badge, permanently, is to greatly disparage the badge collector in their quest.

Basically, it seems to me that psychologically it's a bit of mistake to effectively turn down the (realistic) wishes of the people that just so happen to also be the greatest consumers of your product (in this case, the badge system.)

Furthermore, as so far as the 'resource' arguement is concerned, constructing new missions for the badges need be nothing more than reusing old content in innovative ways. (Old conent which is, in many respects, languishing in limbo; i.e. the Pumpkin King and the Winter Lord.) It would be very easy and very simple to pad out the upcoming Halloween and Winter events by dragging out these old foes, in addition to adding new event content.

Personally, I just greatly dislike the idea that everyone who would like a second - no, a first stab at getting Isolator, or Cold Warrior, or what have you - is essentially some sort of spoiled brat throwing a tantrum. We are noting politely that as we are devoting so much time to giving Cryptic and NCSoft our monies, we would be quite appreciative in turn if they could modify their product in a simple, harmless manner, to better conform to our idea of how things should be.

Good lord, it's not like we are demanding ED be rolled back or somesuch. All we are saying is that we would be quite thankful if someone could take a moment to drop an apropriate mission or two in the database and populate it with some contaminated, maybe think about taking a few giant monsters out of the closet, dusting them off, and letting them loose anually.

And just a thought; think of something you really love about this game. Maybe it's the PvP. Maybe it's the social interaction. Maybe it's the missions, or the teaming, or the task forces, or the events. There is most likely something about this game that you enjoy. And furthermore, enjoying it as much as you do, you've probably got some good insight into that particular element of the game. There are probably even a few things you would like to see tweaked, maybe a few improvements that could make that game - at very little cost - even more satisfying to play.

I therefore look on with great consternation and puzzlement that as we sit here and pleasantly toss around some ideas in intellectual curiosity, that others feel the need to come in here and tear them down.

And really... Varuca Salt?

That's a bit harsh, isn't it?

[ QUOTE ]

Now that you've suggested that Celebrant should be allowed only for those that were "there at the right time" ... let me ask you: what is it about Celebrant that makes it more deserving of "I was in the right place at the right time and did the right thing(s)" than Isolator ... or Jet-setter ... or Hallow Spirit ... or any other opportunity-limited badge?


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Hey, I'm just tossing around maybes on the Celebrant badge. ^_^ I for one like to shy away from any indication that a particular badge or set of badges is 'special' in comparison to it's breathren... What I can make clear is that so far as the Celebrant badge is concerned, I have no answer as to what should be done with it in this particular capacity.

My own personal take - and this really is just me - I absolutely LOATH all limited-opportunity items within games. Now, potentially that's opening a can of worms (I can already see people lining up to say "Well, that's the way life is" and so on) but my take on the matter goes something like this:

Games have a replay factor. A popular method for increasing the reply factor is introducing a system whereby the player expands additional effort essentially doing more than is necessary to progress through the game. For instance, you can try and collect all known Materia in FFVIII, or find all one hundred and twenty Stars in Mario 64.

Nobody twists your arm and forces you to undertake these tasks; but there are a certain number of players for whom there is an intrinsic need to cover every inch of a game, uncover every secret and achieve every objective. It is also quite a widespread phenom within the gaming community, given the often quite elaborate and lavish effort that goes into such replay schemes.

Unlike other games, City of X is an MMORPG and is therefor mutable and ever-changing. It is locked to a permanent and real timescale. Sure, you might miss a few of those aforementioned Materia in FFVII... but you can always wipe your game and go back to where it all began (only this time forwarned and forarmed.) This is not a possibility in CoX; you can wipe your characters, but whatever event-driven badges they carried will be lost forever.

My point in all of this is that from a purely financial standpoint, the creation of the CoX badge system is one intended to time sink players. And the most vocal advocates of the badge system are going to be those that most conform to the archtype of the dedicated badge hound. These are the people dedicated to completing their collection; therefore, I am inclined to think that indulging these people in their passion is a positive thing.

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No, that would cheapen the Celebrant badge. I would like to see a COV equivalent to the Celebrant badge, though - next haloween, of course. And maybe "Celebrant (2)", "Celebrant (3)", and so on could be doable.

But people who were in Paragon City during the month of the anniversary? That's something special, the badge is a memento of that ... and IMO, it would cheapen the badge and the event if it were ever made possible to get it "again".

IMO, what it boils down to is this: if you missed the bus, you missed the bloody bus.


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That's certainly an idea I find interesting. I'm having trouble really exorcising my thoughts into words here; but my take on the Celebrant badge is that frankly, it's not all that special. (Mind you, this is a thought dedicated just to Celebrant here.) Now, I can't remember the specifics of the award requirements; but I think it was something as simple as "Be here during the month of celebration".

First of all, it just seems difficult to cheapen something that was given away freely and took very little effort to earn. "Log in, get badge". But also - and this is where my words become a little muddled - the award, celebrating a year of City of Heroes... it wasn't for those that were here since the start. Or those that came in after a few months. Or half a year. It was for everyone, regardless, providing they logged in at the right time. It just doesn't seem that special, you know? (Like I said, muddled... I might just sound like an idiot at this point.)

If I can draw an analogy here - see, there's this McDonald's, right?... Actually, on second thoughts, let's try something different. I personally see the Celebrant badge as something akin to Mardi Gras beads. Big celebration, once a year, you get your beads. You take them home and treasure them, even though everyone has them and they are practically being given away. Next year, you go to New Orleans again, it's Mardi Gras... wait, what's this? MORE BEADS? But my beads here are special! These people weren't here last year, how come they get some?!

Now at this point, it's entirely about perception. I see the Celebrant badge as a little something Cryptic threw in to celebrate the game's anniversary. They weren't celebrating the player or the player's achievements. Heck, the player that had an account at the time but forgot to log in didn't get the badge! Something there just doesn't sit right with me.

Having said that, I can see that your own interpretation of the event is, of course, quite different. To you it was a more special endevour; and I respect that. And on a realistic note, CuppaJo quite clearly stated that the Dev team have little intention of trying to make the badges available to all - so at this point, argument on the matter could be quite moot. Barring that particular obsticle, what I would like to see is a comparison of those that would like to be able to collect these 'missed opportunity' badges, versus those that feel that option should not be made available, as it cheapens their own efforts.


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And I say, the value of the relevant badges will be destroyed; I will no longer hold automatic respect for the owners of such badges. And I would plain refuse to take part in such a mission, because I wouldn't want to be party to devaluing someone else's rightly-won symbol of achievement and/or luck.

It's just not right to reverse course and open those limited access badges to anyone and everyone who gets lucky with the right mission. It cheats the people who got them by "legit" means, rather than as a pity-party for folks who missed it.


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I'm certainly not trying to be judgemental here, I try to be understanding. But I am having trouble getting my head around feeling so strongly about locking out a particular percentage of the player population... If I understand you correctly - and I hope I do, please point me right otherwise - but you see a kind of... well, 'elite' status associated with the badges? (I'm not using the word 'elite' here as an insult, although I know it can carry negative connotations... I just can't think of a better word right now.)

I don't know. Personally, if there was a good degree of player skill involved in the acquisition of said badges, I think perhaps I would be inclined to agree somewhat. The problem is, that wasn't the case. Taking out a Pumpkin King or Winter Lord was highly resident in many zones on finding an accepting team. The Toothbreaker badge and Toy Collector badges were for being numbingly persistant. The Celebrant badge was for logging on at the right time.

This is, of course, all entirely personal conjecture. It's just that if we are going to deal with badges available to only some of the players, than I would much rather see that happen as a salute to their extraordinary skill... and not because they were in the right place at the right time. That strikes me as not unlike giving someone an honorary doctorate... for winning the lottery.

[ QUOTE ]

And keep in mind, I am one of the folks who missed that bus - MOST of them in fact. And I'm still vehemently opposed to allowing them to be earned "after the fact". Cold Warrior was a neat fillip, a chance to re-earn a prior event badge - BUT, now it's "took part in either winter event", not "happened to get the Winter-Lord mission". And you still had to be here for the FIRST Winter Event to be able to pop an XP-Pinata and get Frozen Fury; anyone with that still has bragging rights.

I got toy Collecter on precisely ONE of my alts - my Stalker, 'cause I could stealth the presents and ignore the frosties. He's also got Jail Bird, thank god - but I missed getting Handsome and Toothbreaker (silly me forgot to log that alt in). Yeah, I'm disappointed, but ... I wouldn't want a chance to go back and get those badges. Why? Because it would cheapen the accomplishment of others who got it at the RIGHT time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe that's where we differ? I don't see ANY of the badges as being worthy of 'bragging rites'... now, if I see someone with a very sizable badge collection, I'll be impressed. But to me, that's because they've taken the time and effort - usually at the expense of other activities, such as levelling - to increase their collection. That shows me dedication to a cause. I like that. ^_^

Inversely, if I see someone with an entire seven badges, one of which is the Celebrant... the last thing that's going to pop into my head is "Whoah, they've got 'Celebrant'! I had heard of this thing, but I never thought I would actually get to see one... this must be a mighty hero indeed! I must team with them!"

As a final note, you know what I find weird? I've got most of the badges in question (bar my two alts, I simply didn't have time to pick up Toy Collector or Toothbreaker with them)... and I'm arguing that the badge system should be opened up to be available for all. ^_^ Inversely, you state that you have few of the badges but do not want them becoming available. I'm not saying one way is better than the other, I just find it funny that in this particular discussion, we are each advocating a position that is of no direct importance to our own relative situation. ^_^

Note to self: When replying, keep power cord *in* computer.

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Pax_Arcana waded in:

Okay, I'll take you up on this one. First point:

I am a badge-[censored]. I'm addicted, top to bottom, front to back, left to right, inside and out, to getting more badges. I'll have at LEAT one of my excessively-numerous alts cross sides, to collect as many badges from "the other side of the fence" as possible.

So. Why should I be unable to get the Halloween badges ...? Or the badge for killing a Winterlord (or fifty) ...?

If you're going to say "devoted badge-hunters should always have a chance at every badge", well, it cuts both ways. Late joiners should have every bit of a chance at earlier badges, as early-joiners should have at LATER badges.

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I wholeheartedly agree! The crux of my point is this: there is a very devoted community of badge collectors, and it would appear that these people (myself included) take the perfection of their collection very seriously. It very much *is* like Pokemon; chances are, if you are part of that demographic, then you will most likely want every badge going.

As for the event-related badges; they are somewhat more finickity to deal with, that's for sure. But I said as much before, and continue to think that there are viable solutions. There is no reason we cannot have an alternate dimension ruled with the deathly-cold fist of the Winter Lord, or enduring the playful machinations of the Gamester. Similarly, as these characters appeared for an *annual* event, there is no obvious reason as to why they cannot return annually.

(We saw a certain degree of this premise in the re-emergence of the Winter Lord's minature minions this Xmas.)

My thinking here amounts to this: the badge system is, cynically speaking, a time sink intended to capture the interest of a certain type of obsessive compulsive player with completist tendancies. I mean, let's be honest - it takes a certain kind of player to bag 10,000 Rikti monkeys with no obvious reward bar a pin emblazoned with the words "I killed 10,000 Rikti Monkeys and all I got was this pin".

I do not know what percentage of the playerbase is obsessed with badges. Certainly, from the aforementioned websites supporting the badge habit, there appears to be at least a good number. Maybe five percent of all Heroes desperately want another shot at the Isolator badge. Maybe it's ten percent. Who knows?

Nonetheless, it is not a neglible minority. And an important point to impart here; many of these players really do adopt a mentality of completeness. To tell such players, early on, that they have already missed an important item and have no ability to go back and retrive it - this will sap their interest in attaining the rest of the badges, because in their mind they equate completion with success - and the inability to complete their collection with predetermined failure.

And to be clear; though I share this mentality, I do not espouse it. I do not want everyone to become as obsessed as I with collection every last badge, completing every given mission, befriending each and every contact. Statistically speaking however, there are like-minded people; and if that number is a large number, then their demands take on greater import.

Now, a very good point was raised by both LiquidX and Celtic and a few others; that additional badge missions take away resources from other matters within the game that require adressing. Although they have created a diverse and interesting game world, Cryptic Studios are (a) only human and (b) certainly not as large as some of their competitors. There are technical issues plaguing Paragon now that were present in the beta; I mention this simply as an illustration of how the Developers have had to turn their attention to other matters because they simply do not have the time, effort or manpower.

Having said that, I feel that some of the proposed solutions are, in the grand scheme of things, simply quick and easy to implement. Much of the related content - the mobs, their behaviours - are already implemented. It is simply a case of dropping them into an appropriate setting. (Maybe a portal mission, maybe rolling them out once a year, who knows.)

We aren't talking about reinventing the wheel here. I think it is reasonable, with a well designed system, to be able to drop a hundred plus Contaminated into a force-field fenced-off King's Row map, and let the hero go to town with a cursory "This is an alternate dimension where the Outbreak was not contained now go. hunt. kill contaminated" backstory.

As a point of comparison; what percentage of the paying player population has made level 50? The last figure was something like eight percent. Aren't these the same people that (reasonably) want new end-game content with with to amuse themselves? I certainly don't blame them; when I make level 50, I hope there's more to do than poke Hami. But that sounds like an awful lot of work for a small percentage of the population... doesn't it?

Just so we are clear here; I am certainly not arguing that there should be no end-game content, or that it isn't important. But I am saying. that allowing players to collect on the badges they missed does not have to be a great resource drain. And at the same time, it will make a lot of people quite happy. (It gives the badge collectors something more to do, it removes what could be considered a major demotivational factor, and it provides some small but otherwise servicable new content that makes efficient use of otherwise little-used or dormant assets.)

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And Celebrant? What about that? Besides, I think that wuld seriously cheapen the badge for folks that DID earn them.

That goes for current stuff, too; I didn't feel up to getting the badge for killing Snaptooth five times (ugh, FIVE times on EACH character, BLECCH). But it's certainly a point of pride for those that DID stick it out and off him the requisite quintet of times.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also a good point. And it is very much like the aforementioned issue with the Rikti monkeys; when the requirements were lowered, those that did collect the full quotant of 10,000 monkeys wanted a reward for their otherwise negated effort.

Personally, I feel that if the requirement was lowered, then it was done so with good reason and constituted a fix of what almost constituted a 'gameplay bug'. (In this particular instance, a requirement that far outstripped in effort the spirit of the majority.) Although this means a proportion of players are left having essentially done something for nothing, it is otherwise a minor crime. (All that has been lost is the effort of the player... and to that end, they can be recompensed - if not appropriately with a badge - then by other means, such as XP.)

As for the Celebrant badge? I don't know... it's a tricky one. Perhaps it should remain uniquely available for those present during the first anniversary of CoH? Perhaps it should be available to everyone, once a year, on the anniversary? Maybe it could even be made available in the online store for a small fee... (do not underestimate the power of micropayments in an MMORPG setting.) I certainly do not have a suitable answer; but I do think that we could have a polite dialogue on the matter.

Certainly, we find ourselves in the unique mire of those that care for the effort they put in, versus those that do not. I cannot speak for the former, as I am not party to their company. But personally, if tomorrow a new portal mission turns up - one filled with Snow Beasts and Ghosts and Contaminated and Vampires - I say, kudos to those that get the badges. I do not subscribe to a premise of exclusivity for the elite. Badges for all, I say. ^_^

Let me throw my hat into the arena. ^_^

Different Folks...

First of all, I see the playerbase divided into various groups with differing levels of interest in the badge system, scaling from the utterly indifferent to the self-proclaimed 'badge prostitutes'. Furthermore, the badge system was - as I understand it - introduced as a form of time sink within the game. Go out, sweep the streets of a hundred bad guys, get a badge.

Now to this end, I think we can fairly assume that it is in the interest of Cryptic to keep people playing as long as possible; furthermore, having them collect as many badges as possible will extend their time within Paragon. Additionally, whilst not knowing an awful lot about the engine mechanics involved, I would certainly hypothosize that constructing and rolling out badge content is somewhat less demanding than creating other methods of sustaining interest in the game (for instance, the Arena, or the SSOCS.)

Now, here's an important point: if you are in the indifferent camp, or the "I only collect badges to get the Accolades" camp, then chances are you aren't going to care about the Isolator badge. It doesn't do anything, and if you created your character after I2 then you had a shot at getting it anyway.

But if you are part of the League of Extraordinary Badge Whores - the LEBW - you'll want it. Reflecting on my own habits as a collector, I surmise that we are a group of obsessive perfectionists. This is not a bad trait to - quite frankly - exploit for purposes of said time-sink.

Don't Bite the Damn Hand:

My point here is, if you want to make use of these people, then you have to do so in a way that isn't conjuring imagery of hands and feeding and the biting thereof. To the posessed badge collector, perfection of the collection is everything - you don't tell someone that slaughtered 10,000 Rikti Monkeys, that camped out the same Halloween door, that scoured the skies every day for two weeks looking for the few Frostlings that weren't being farmed - you don't tell that person that they can't have a badge because they were around for too long!

Who says it's got to be a big effort?

Now, to address a few points: firstly, someone made a fine suggestion some time ago about a second mission in which to achieve the Isolator badge - a Portal Corps. foray into an alternate dimension infested with Contaiminated. Very simple, no giant monsters, no time-machine, just a mission filled with Contaminated in dire need of a population cull. Non-repeatable, mission objective is to score (unsurprisingly) one hundred Contaminated.

The important thing here is, a second chance at the Isolator badge does not have to be a big and expensive endevour. But it *is* a way of actually saying "Hey, thanks for being a long and loyal customer!" as opposed to "Hey, look, I am sorry but..." And that's before we take into account the second group of players, those that love their badges but started collecting them *after* they left Outbreak.

Now, some people might say... "Okay, so we let them pick up Isolator. But what about the other 'special' badges?" You know what? Make those available too. I'm not saying all the time... but if you didn't get the Winter Lord badge, then let's put together a Portal Corps. mission to the "Winter Lord Dimension" or what have you. Didn't get the Calvin Scott TF badge in time? I don't blame you, I didn't even KNOW that it was going to be available for a limited time. That's the kind of thing that frustrates me as a badge collector and makes me say to myself "Well if I can't get that one... what's the point in trying to get any of the others?"

I know, it's melodramatic. But I ask you to understand; we are COMPLETISTS. That is what drives us to participate in the badge content of the game, it appeals to us. To deny us the complete set is to deny the most vociferous champions of the badge system their very interest in that there system.

As an aside, based on what LiquidX had to say - I have worked in numerous customer service positions, and continue to do so. I understand only too well how there are many customers out there who are more than willing to kick up a fuss based on their incorrect expectations, misassumptions, or just plain belief in their own entitlement. Having said that, the request for a new Isolator mission seems very, very reasonable; especially compared to some of the more outrageous demands thrown around in these forums. ("ED SUKS I;M GOING TO WOWS").

Put yourself in their shoes...

As a matter of comparison; think to yourself, "What if instead of a badge, Isolator unlocked a power?" Players would be up in arms then; primarily because this would directly affect a much greater percentage of the playerbase. Now, to be fair, the situation with the Isolator badge does not affect nearly that great a number; but the problem *is* multiplied by the catagory of people it affects (both hardcore proponents of the badge system, and also more veteran players.)

And as for myself? The moment I found out about the situation, I rerolled all of my characters (one of which was already half-way through the game) and picked up Isolator for each. Like I said... completist. ^_^

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, in case you didn't see it on the beta boards, here it is......

Kanchou: The rectal assassin


[/ QUOTE ]

"One thousand years of pain!!"

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Great_Scott said:
You're welcome to your opinon, however, even after the nerfs, Scrappers..
1. Do more damage than Blasters. This is no longer debatable, and has been buffed into outright fact.
2. Are still more survivable than Blasters. I'd take Scrappers for the Status protection alone.


[/ QUOTE ]

Um, I always figured that the Blasters were the ones with the damage.

When did all this change?

I would have to agree that the Defiance meter is nice, but when the bullets start flying then the first thing you are going to have your eyes pinned on is the action, and the second thing is your health meter. For the multitaskers out there, End might be the third thing. ^_^ What you probably aren't going to have time to watch is the Defiance.

There have been some good suggestions for inferring to the player that they are in 'Defiance mode' with more center-of-the-screen data. For instance, the 'blasts' that the player throws out could become visually bigger as Defiance kicks in. Obviously though, this is an art-related matter and could be more time and trouble to implement than is percieve worthwhile.

Certainly, I wouldn't mind seeing an addition next to the damage numbers getting reeled off. This second number would be the percentage bonus that Defiance is providing, and the size of the font (if such things are possible) could become bigger and more apparant as Defiance goes up. For those that have played Unreal Tournament, it's like the "Monster Kill" combo - you keep telling the player that they are racking up greater and greater bonuses: "Bang! 100%! Bang! 150%! BANG! 175! BAAANG!! 200%!" etc. etc.

(As a random aside, those that advocate switching Scrapper Criticals with Defiance might want to have a rethink. There might be a lot of players right now that are disgruntled with Defiance, but at least you know when it's going to kick in. Scrapper's appreciate their Criticals no doubt; but the random nature of the damn things all too often means either:

"Oh, hell yeah, I just took that minion out with one hit! Did you guys see that? One hit! Oh yeah, I'm a One Hit Wonder..." *starts singing*

and:

"Come on... come on! Gimme a Crit or this boss is going to toast me... Crit Crit Crit Crit Crit... come on, Crit... oh no..."
Debt: "HELLO SCRAPPER. GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.")

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bo tell Devoured Earth, "Get in bag Earth! Biodegrade!"

[/ QUOTE ]

This has got to be one of the funniest lines I have read in a long time. I read it at work, and laughed for a good 15 minutes. Thankfully I work in a part of the office that no one else comes by.

This thread has been the highlight of the week for me. Keep up the great work Fire_Wall, and I cant wait to read more!

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Line of the day ^_^

There is a real danger in every MMORPG of creating two classes, the 'haves' and 'have-nots'. And whilst I agree that a divide will always exist between those that take the time to find or achieve a badge or accolade and those that couldn't care less, it is still important that *all* players be given the opportunity.

You didn't get the Celebrant badge? Fair enough. It was a badge for being in CoH at the time of the anniversary.

didn't get the Cold Warrior badge because of the mass-Winter Lord hunting? Okay, now we're into Dev country. This is a problem that could have been prevented.

Want the healing badges? Take Aid Other and go get 'em, tiger.

Want the Isolator badge? Uh-oh.

Whilst I can understand why Positron may say "Not everyone is going to get every badge", you have to be careful with that line of thinking. Some people get the badges accidentally, some people get them for the nifty little subtitle they provide. Some people get the badges for the accolades they desire.

But many, many players get the badges because they are completists. Nobody really *wants* to spend a day collecting Rikti monkey pelts; what they want is the Zookeeper badge. And many of us have spent hours upon hours racking up the kills for the honour of wearing our honours. So when you say "Sorry, no Isolator badge for you", that's a real kick in the teeth. When you say "Sure, says here you lost a whole day of your life to collecting those Magma Lords... now, do you think you could take a billion points of damage?" That's a kick in the teeth.

There exists a fine line in the world of badge collection. You can reward people for slowing their general game progress in favour of exploring the zones and hunting out specific mobs. That's great; the player glows with reward, you gain the knowledge that fiscally, they are probably going to be around longer as a result. But if you push the line too far, it stops being a reward and becomes a chore. Nobody wants to do chores.

Lordy, for the longest time players were convinced there was a hidden Portal Corps. mission that took you to an instantiated version of Outbreak specifically for the purpose of collecting the Isolator badge in the 40+ game. That sounds like an *ideal* proposition. And heck, it sounds easy to create too. All the mission assets are already available! Why oh why kick your longest standing players in the teeth? They are the ones in most danger of leaving. Likewise, why on earth reduce the Zookeeper badge to 1K (an admirable goal, I feel!) at the same time as introducing elite million-point-plus badges?

We love the badge system, we do! But seriously, who on earth is going to get hurt if everyone finds it that much easier to get the badges? What game-mechanic is going to be thrown out of whack because somebody was able finally call themselves "Isolator"? Put the Celebrant badge up for sale in the online store; five dollars and it's yours!

A level playing field is a balanced playing field. Why not level it?