Doorknob

So let's suppose that the devs decided to stop any more Veteren Rewards after the 66th month one. Now, further suppose that CoX shut down 67 months from now. A new player joining today would get all rewards up to the 66th month if he subscribed until the end.

But what if the devs didn't stop at 66, but decided to stop at 69 instead? A new player joining today would get...all rewards up to the 66th month if he subscribed until the end, the exact same rewards he would have gotten if the devs had stopped at his highest reward.

A reward never offered can never be gained. At least if the devs continued to offer Veteren Rewards there would be a chance for getting them. If the devs stopped, they would be guaranteeing that future potential rewards could never be gained by anybody.

The argument that the devs should stop making new Veteran Rewards because new players would not be able to get them is really an argument that says, "If new players can't have something, then nobody else should be able to either."

People need to accept the fact that they can't have everything in the game. Everything was not designed for everybody. Not everybody enjoys PvP; not everybody has hours to dedicate to some of the longer task forces; not everybody has the energy to research and gather all the badges; and not everybody was subscribed for the same amount of time.

The only question the devs need to care about is how vital the Veteran Rewards are to people's enjoyment. If not having a given ability truly harms the playability of the game, then perhaps that ability should be given to all players. But if the "harm" is merely one player being jealous of what another player has, and enjoying the game just as much if neither had the reward as if both did, then perhaps the reward is serving its intended purpose in a two-fold manner, by both creating non-vital rewards that people feel an incentive to get and filtering out those who have a sense of entitlement that the game cannot likely support.

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I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm trying to portray myself as 'special' in any way. I'm no different than anyone else...I was simply replying to the whole accusation that I wanted to make a rip off of copyrighted content. That's totally against the whole reason why I play this game. I want to make my own unique toons with a distinctive background. You can interpret that however you like.

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All of my toons are original concepts that I create and have their own unique backstory. I happen to think that people have imaginations for a reason and should use them liberally. (Editor's note - bolded this one section because it comes off as rather insulting)

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Yanno, I'm not sure where I got it either. How terribly odd.


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All he was saying was that he creates his own stories for his characters, and likes to be creative. Interpreting that to mean he thinks he is special is taking his statements way out of context. Everyone who creates stories for their characters is using original concepts with unique backstories (except perhaps the rare case where two stories coincidentally happened to be the same). That doesn't make them more special than anyone else, nor should their stories necessarily be placed on some pedestal.

Now, I happen to agree that one can still be creative with the MA as it currently stands. However, I don't think it is fair to paint the OP as if he is asking for customization features because his creations are so incredible that he, above anyone else, deserves them. He is asking for the features for the same reason people kept asking for power customization, because he wants more control over what he creates.

And I personally do hope that certain advances are made, particularly in the areas of branching missions and transitions from one mission to another (i.e., being able to exit one mission and go directly to another).

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I heard that in I16 the devs are increasing the level cap to 50.99.

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And every issue from then on, they will add a 9 to the end of the cap, thereby getting us that much closer to 51!

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The fun that you had as you were levelling that character was supposed to be its own reward. If it wasn't enough reward, then perhaps a different choice of how to "waste" your time was in order.

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Leveling up the character the first time was its own reward, but for some people re-playing that character would not be as rewarding. However, continuing to play the existing character might be rewarding given the ability to make certain changes. While playing games might be unproductive time, it is not wasting time in the sense that the player derives the benefit of enjoyment from playing them. The less enjoyment one gains, however, the more that time is being wasted.

What people are asking for is a means to increase their enjoyment, by minimizing what they feel is a less enjoyable aspect of the game. It's the same reason people have asked for new mission content, new costumes, new tilesets, and new powers; people prefer to do something different each time they level up. The more differently they can play each time, the more rewarding leveling the new characters will feel.

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I support being able to respec to powersets for which one has leveled at least one character to 50, including to powersets in different ATs. Sure, players might not have played a particular combination all the way to 50, but they would know enough about the powersets to quickly learn.



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No, they wouldn't.

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So the only way to know how to play an exact combination of powersets is to play all the way from 1 - 50? People are so single-minded that they learn nothing about their powersets on the way to 50 except in relation to a particular build? How do people learn how to use the different power pools they respec into? As others have said, it's not rocket science, and using powersets one has already played to 50 even less so.

What exactly would keep people from quickly learning how to use a new combination of powersets they had already played all the way to 50?

I support being able to respec to powersets for which one has leveled at least one character to 50, including to powersets in different ATs. Sure, players might not have played a particular combination all the way to 50, but they would know enough about the powersets to quickly learn.

Those who might have wanted to swap out one powerset, but didn't want to re-play a character using the same other powerset that they already played, could instead play a brand new character with two different powersets (that included the one they wanted to switch to).

Similarly, those who wanted to switch ATs might level up two different characters of the destination AT, each having one of the desired powersets. While that would be more work than starting over, psychologically it might feel better to create new characters than to restart one. And ultimately, the player would end up with three characters, each having their own stories, instead of just one whose life was merely re-lived.

This type of AT respec would encourage players who might otherwise give up to create new characters, and thus would actually promote the creation of alts. It would allow people to feel like they were starting fresh, while giving their existing characters new life.

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Ok, thinking about it, make the day jobs exactly like the Super Group badges (separate window via a button in the badge window), not counting towards the badge totals, not displayed in your info window, etc with one exception: you could use it as a selectable title.

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I'm not sure how easy this would be, but if they could do it, then it sounds like a solution we can agree on! Well, other than that I would like my skills to show up somewhere in the info window, but it wouldn't need to be in the badge tab.

In fact, they might as well move Veteran rewards too since those are technically not rewards specific to a character. Maybe have Super Group badges, Skill badges, and Heroism/Villainy badges. Skill badges would include Day Job badges, but also Veteran since Veteran rewards can represent an abstract sense of "experience" within your character. Heroism/Villainy badges would be the rest of the badges (except super group ones), and would represent acts that your character has done as a hero or villain (i.e., by you playing the game).

In this way, the unbounded nature of both Veteran and Day Job badges could be separated from the Heroism/Villainy badges that completists want to collect.

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But really, are you arguing because you LIKE the idea of 30 days, or simply because you DON'T like the attitude of the other badge collectors?

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Here's why I like the idea of 30 days. Assuming most players don't play more than 8 hours a day on average, they will acquire 8 - 12 jobs per year. After 1 year to 1 year and 4 months, players will have every job that we know about so far. And that includes the accolades, which give an additional 5 powers.

Now, if you halve that to 15 days, then it becomes only 6 - 8 months. While that might still seem long to many players who can get to 50 in a month, it isn't that long for this system's intended audience, players who can take years to get to 50, either because they are casual players or have many alts. Plus, the devs might hope that people continue to collect Day Jobs after hitting 50.

If the time is too short, then either the Day Job system is trivialized because every character eventually gets all the skills or the devs add so many skills to the system in order to keep up with players that it becomes a balancing issue, and suddenly people feel forced to get Day Jobs just to feel at a normal power level.

8 - 12 skills a year seems like plenty of skills to me, and 16 - 24 seems like too much. I'd prefer Day Jobs to be special perks one gets every once and a while. They are rewards that are between in-game rewards, which come in abundance and with great frequency, and Veteran rewards, which come every 3 months and offer a small benefit, if any.

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Still using the system... And while badge counts are a part of it, you still have a visible badge in the window. If it is visible and can be used to set a title it still is a badge.

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How is being in a separate window that much different than a separate tab? And why should badges be the only thing allowed to set a title?

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Just face it, you simply cannot say "only count some of the collectible things" and expect that collectors would agreed with it. It is fine that you don't understand it. You don't need to. However the developers DO need to understand that a segment of the player base is upset at this implementation.

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Some collectors prefer the process of collecting rather than the goal. In fact, I would argue that most collectors are like that. Just because those people don't fit into your limited definition of a "collector" does not mean they aren't collectors.

I want to collect Day Job badges, but I don't ever want to be done. I always want one more Day Job badge available for me to get. And I want a wide selection of Day Jobs to choose from. I'm hoping that the devs continue to add a lot more Day Jobs to the system.

While Day Jobs might not satify collectors like you that like to collect from bounded collections, they do satisfy collectors like me that like to collect from unbounded collections. And that's fine; not everything in the game needs to be for everybody.

Exploration badges, History badges, Accomplishment badges, and Achievement badges are all bounded collections that are there for collectors like you, and Day Job badges are there for collectors like me.

Why should your style of collecting have a monopoly on the game?

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Three overlapping badges. The tier 1 badge gets hidden when you earn the tier 2. The tier 2 gets hidden when you get the tier 3. Just like the respec badges.

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So really you are after badge counts then, not the badges themselves. Collecting extra badges only matters if it affects your badge count. If that's the case, then why is not including Day Job badges in the badge count good enough?

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One is possible the other is not. Each story arc, task force, and trial is a specific thing you can gauge, thanks to the badge system and souvenirs. The other missions have no such mechanism to tell when they are "done". Therefore, straw man, unless you want to remove the badges from the day jobs entirely so you have no record of what you've done.

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So everything that is counted in the game must be completely collectible?

And for some people, getting all the badges is equally as impossible as doing all the missions. They just don't have the time to do either one. So should the devs reduce the number of badges and missions just because they want to be able to collect them all? Or does it just matter that there is enough time for you specifically to get them all?

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And for an addition or alternate method to really keep badge hunters happy:
Have each day job badge be 3 badges, one for each tier of the gate.

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What are you collecting? Badge counts or the badges themselves? How would this solve anything, because wouldn't people want to collect all of the top tier badges?

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These are great examples of Straw Man arguments. You are setting up questions that are completely unrelated to the topic at hand, for the specific purpose of knocking them down. Logic fallacies.

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Nope, sorry, my arguments were completely relevant. You said that you had done all the story arcs, task forces, and trials. Somehow you were able to separate wanting to do all of them from wanting to do all missions in general.

Wanting to do all missions is just as valid as wanting to get all badges. Just because you personally do not care about doing all missions, but do care about getting all badges, you are drawing an arbitrary line in the sand and saying wanting to do all missions is completely different than wanting to get all badges, and therefore my arguments were Straw Men.

That's really a sign of your own bias, not mine.

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Still in the badge window, still using the badge system to award. The game doesn't care if what it is called, if it uses the badge system, the game counts it. They've had to recode the vet reward choices not to count.

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Well, yeah, that's why one of my suggestions was to change things to count them separately. Or, at the very least, count Day Jobs separately. But you didn't like that idea. And if they are counted separately, does it really matter that much what window they're in? Seriously?

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If you're in the game, you still get far better rewards than when not, but now even those who don't have as much time to play are gaining something during every hour.

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Day jobs are not to reward every single hour subscribed. If they were then you would be gaining the rewards while playing as well. Faulty logic on that one.

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It's not faulty logic. As I said in that very same sentence, you are far more rewarded while playing than not. Without Day Jobs, a player is only rewarded while playing the game. With Day Jobs, a player is still rewarded while playing the game, but now also rewarded while not.

Therefore, it is because of Day Jobs that players will now get rewarded for every hour of subscribed time. I never said the reward every hour had to come from Day Jobs specifically, only that Day Jobs allowed such a scenario to exist.

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Failing that, change how the rewards work to not penalize normal play. I would consider "normal play" to be at most 9 hours (longest current TF lasts about that long) so people could earn a maximum of 15 hours per day.

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NCSoft does not get money based on how much you play the game. They get money based on how long you subscribe. They aren't penalizing normal play. They are giving constant rewards to everyone who is subscribing. If you're in the game, you still get far better rewards than when not, but now even those who don't have as much time to play are gaining something during every hour.

If their goal is to reward players for every hour subscribed to the game, then limiting it to a maximum per day penalizes the players who don't have as much time to play. I have a feeling that this new system is called "Day Jobs" partially because it's targeted towards players who have them in real life.

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Because badges are one aspect of the game. Not 5-7 different aspects. You do realize that this question could be rephrased "How is it you are able to separate your arm from other items on your body, but not different types of appendages from each other?" Of course this change of phrase is absurd, but so is the question.

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It's not absurd. Story arcs, task forces, and trials are all missions, but yet they are considered different types of missions by people, each with a different style of gameplay. Should task forces be removed because some people don't like to team, but want to be able to do every mission?

What about this new Mission Architect system that's coming? Even if people could have done all the dev-created missions, there's no way they could keep up with the large influx of player-created missions.

Should we drop the Mission Architect system so players aren't forced to play for unhealthy amounts of time in order to do them all? Or should we tell them, "Hey, feel free to do all the task forces, trials, and key story arcs, but sorry, you won't be able to do every single mission."

Badges do have a common system in which they live, true. But the methods by which one acquires them varies greatly. And some types of badges will be easier to collect than others. If you want to collect modern coins, that will be easier than wanting to collect coins from ancient times. If you want to get as many Bachelor's degrees as possible, that will be easier to get than as many Ph.D's as possible. Just because two items are of the same general type does not mean they should have the same ease of collectibility.

And whether or not an item is a badge is only one aspect of that item. The activity required to get many of the Achievement badges, defeat X of Y, has much in common with the activity involved in doing Defeat X of Y missions. Exploration badges require an activity similar to the "Go to Location x" missions. And many Accomplishments are given by completing specific missions.

The types of badges seem to have just as much in common with certain types of missions as they do with each other. So why draw the line between badges and non-badges? Why not say all missions and mission badges must be collectible, but non-missions and non-mission badges don't matter?

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This line of reasoning might be acceptable if they were already in the live game. They aren't there yet. There is nothing for the developers to remove.

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How could Day Job badges be part of the game before Day Jobs were? Now that Day Jobs are being added to the game, some people might want to collect them, and use badges as the mechanism by which to do so. But just because you are happy with what is currently available to be collected, that means that someone who wants to collect Day Jobs shouldn't be given the same privilege? The only things that should be allowed are things that are already there?

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Making a skill system that functions completely independent of the badge system would work.

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How is having them called "certificates" and counted separately from badges not functioning completely independent?

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On the other hand I like playing my badge character, even till this day. I got her to level 50 a month after CoV/Issue 6, and was my first level 50. With this system, I'm being told I have to choose between a character I love to play and a mini-game I love to play. I should not have to choose between the two.

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What is it that makes a badge a badge to you? You seem to be okay with the fact that you can't do every mission, get every IO, get every combination of powers, or complete every other aspect of other things in the game. But once something becomes a badge, then it is now part of a single collection that you must complete.

How is it you are able to separate collecting badges from other items in the game, but not different types of badges from each other? What is it that makes badges part of a single collection to you? Is it the fact that they are all called "badges"? Is it the fact that they are counted together?

Keep in mind that some people might want to collect Day Jobs too, so while making Day Job badges invisible might satisfy your style of collecting, other collectors could be hurt by that change. What could the devs do that would allow those collectors to collect Day Jobs, but still make you not feel you needed them all to complete your badge collection?

Would any of these possibilities be satisfactory to you?

* Count each type of badge separately in the game. In other words, Achievement badges go to one count, Exploration to another, Day Jobs to another, etc. If separating the existing counts wouldn't be feasible, then separate just Day Jobs from the rest of the badge count.

* Call Day Job badges "certificates" instead.

* Show Day Jobs in a separate "skills" window that shows a tree of all the offline skills you have acquired. You could set your title by clicking on a skill.

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I believe there should be spots in each zone where one can log to not earn the patrol xp. I like the option of putting it in the options menu to click on to start or stop. I think this would make those who want it happy and those who don't want the double xp happy as well.

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There is a suggestion for putting in an XP slider. I think that would solve any issues about getting too much XP from Day Jobs or any other kind of reward. With the XP slider, people would never have to worry about outleveling content ever.

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False equivalence. You are assuming "time consuming = difficulty".

Logging out, is ridiculously easy to do. Logging out in a new location when needed, is ridiculously easy to do.

What it is, is time consuming to do so.

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You do realize that the whole game is based on being time consuming, right? Sure, there is some level of challenge to certain aspects of it, but really anybody with enough time can get a level 50. In fact, given a finite, but significantly large amount of time, a player could theoretically get level 50 characters of every single power combination possible. And it wouldn't be challenging at all, just incredibly time consuming.

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Oh, and I notice you didn't bother answering me, so I guess you're admitting that the dev's don't have an agenda to insure that no one has all the day-job badges and instead that's *your personal preference*.

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I didn't say the devs didn't want anybody to have all the day job badges. I said they didn't want everybody to have all the badges. In other words, their goal is not for all characters to go for every Day Job.

Most players need to choose between fewer level 50s and lots of lower alts. Few players have the time needed to have lots of level 50s. Nonetheless, for those that do have the time and will, the devs don't prevent them from doing so.

Similarly, the purpose of the time requirement is so that players choose between being less proficient in more areas and more proficient in less. If the devs didn't want this, they wouldn't have put in the time requirement in the first place. If they wanted everybody to get all the Day Jobs, they would have made logging out and back in at a given location give you the badges instantly. Furthermore, there would be no extra reward after 30 days. The reward you got on Day 1 would never increase.

Now, depending on the rate at which new jobs are added to the system, it might certainly be possible for some players to gain proficiency in every job. And the devs don't have any specific game rules preventing this from happening. But just because something is possible and allowed does not mean it ought to be easily or quickly obtained.

And as far as my personal preferences, I honestly wouldn't mind if the devs decided to give all my characters the bonuses for every Day Job without me having to wait any time at all. So no, I'm not against anybody getting all Day Job badges. But I also wouldn't consider that to be an offline skill system either since what's the point of having "skills" if everybody has all the skills? All that does is inflate people's abilities.

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They don't want all players to have every single job. They want players to choose what they want to focus on just like they are required to choose which AT and power sets they want to play with.

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And you have a quote for this? Because I don't see it. It could be inferred from the really high requirements, but there is absolutely *nothing* to prevent it, and it would be ridiculously easy to do so.

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If it's so easy to do, then you shouldn't have a problem with getting every single job using the system as it currently is.

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You basically have said to badge collectors exactly that: "Continue to collect badges, but only collect some of them."

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Comic book collectors collect comic books, but only some of them. Stamp collectors collect stamps, but only some of them. Coin collectors collect coins, but only some of them. In fact, I would guess that most collectors don't have everything of what they collect. Yet somehow they all seem to continue to enjoy collecting even knowing that their collections might never be complete.

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Just to be clear, while I have no problem with an alt having every day job badge, I also have no problem with the 30 day time period to earn them. The jobs I listed for myself are over my 45 year lifespan. I didn't do all those things in a couple of years.

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Okay, then we are in agreement. I don't have a problem with a character having every day job badge either. I just don't think the devs should adjust their time requirements simply to cater to that desire.

However, if the devs don't add any more jobs, or if they add them at a slower rate than 1 a month, and people are able to get them all, more power to them!

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I don't look at the day job badges as 'jobs my alt is doing right now". I look at them as skills that have been accumulated over their lifetime. Not that many people start off in one career and stick with it their entire lives.

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And you can do just that with Day Jobs. Within 10 days of unplayed time, your skills already start to give you benefits. (And 10 days is the maximum benefit, so you will likely see benefits in under a day of out-of-game time, depending on what kind of benefit it is.)

After 30 days, you are considered a professional at whatever you were doing. Players that want to be jacks of all trades can spend a small amount of time at each job, getting a wide range of bonuses, while those that want to focus on a few skills can become experts in those areas.

If the devs make the time requirements so short that everyone can get every job, then that makes all of the jobs meaningless. They might as well have a "Can Do Everything" job in that case. They don't want all players to have every single job. They want players to choose what they want to focus on just like they are required to choose which AT and power sets they want to play with.

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In the end, I guess the question is, is getting a day job related bonus about 3-8 times for your entire career from 1-50 reasonable? Furthermore, for something that occurs so few times during your career, how big is the feature really?

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It's big for characters that don't get to 50 that quickly. In fact, I think that is the point. It helps to boost up the characters that are played less frequently.