So you really want me to use it for...farms?
By
Commander,
Posted on: 2009-07-19 12:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The first and harshest blow was the removal of the Paragon Protector Clone lab map. So then after getting a tell that my arc wasn't working I had to chose a stupid generic map that didn't have the room at the end with the clone lab which I had thought was pretty cool.
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A lot of special maps were removed because glowies were spawning inside the special geometry, making the mission uncompleteable.
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After the last patch I again get a tell that my arc is invalid. I'm pretty confused because I can't for the life of me think why it would be invalid. Turns out they have now pulled the power generators that you get in some Council maps and in the Marshall Brass/Aeon arc(the ones powering the WSPDR building. They can no longer be used as destructible objects.
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The changed destructible objects to versions that do no damage, and apparently there's no version of the generators that don't do damage. Hopefully they'll be back once they have the time to make a non-damaging version.
Just like your situation, I had an arc invalidated by the removal of Prisoners, and I hope they make a return someday.
...I forgot what experience means.
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The changed destructible objects to versions that do no damage, and apparently there's no version of the generators that don't do damage. Hopefully they'll be back once they have the time to make a non-damaging version.
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It's a POWER GENERATOR. If you blow it up...why would it NOT do any damage???
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It's a POWER GENERATOR. If you blow it up...why would it NOT do any damage???
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Exactly! Which is why it was pulled. Because the generators do damage to the surrounding enemy groups AS WELL as players.
Players were using that fact to exploit the MA by using the generators to kill spawns, thusly earning them XP without much effort.
So, why leave something in game that is essentially useless, once they change it so that it does no damage?
EVERYTHING removed from the MA is either exploitable or causes major problems. It's not the dev's job to explain to you why or how. Their job is to fix these problems and, if they have time or see a need for it, then replace it... eventually.
Be aware, they will NOT have a replacement for it right away. If they do replace it, it can take months, mainly because they are working on other things (new issues, new powers, etc.) as well as have to MAKE a new version that's coded to NOT be exploitable.
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
Explosives damage everyone around them when they blow up too. Most destructible objects do. And yet most of them were replaced with non-damaging versions with minimal fuss.
I would like to know what is so special about the generator, that it could not be made non-damaging.
What really irritated me was that the generator and the maps were removed with no patch note. The mitos got a patch note.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Exactly! None of those things got patch notes! That's my point, I had to wait to hear that my arc didn't work from people who wanted to try it.
Destructible objects were in the game for a long time and they all caused damage when destroyed. I have never heard of anyone using them to kill spawns. I assume it can be done...but the amount of bother it would take to herd things close enough would hardly make it worthwhile. Plus...isn't there a limit to the number of destructible objects you can place in any map?
I'm done messing around with an arc that has only gotten more genericed and gutted with each patch with no warning or notes.
I tried MA and made an arc...my opinion on it is now bleh...more than ever. Looking forward to some dev content that doesn't need editing by me after every patch. MA is a waste.
What's strange here is how different my experience with MA has been. I spent days fine tuning things in my arc (the enemies, the maps, the dialog, etc.). And, to my knowledge it has been fine ever since (granted I haven't checked it since AE has been dominated by farmers and exploiters).
Overall, I had a lot of fun making that arc, and even if it stopped functioning... I still had the fun while making it, which is the important part. For me, creation is far more enjoyable than being finished.
So what you're saying is, you're concerned that the developers are making the Mission Architect suitable only for farming, by removing those things that were being used for farming?
(And those things that simply made missions unworkable?)
There didn't really seem to be a question in your post apart from why those things were removed. Since that's been answered by Commander and SpaceNut I'd just like to ask; What story/mission ideas did you have that required importing your own resources? I'm actually quite curious.
Eastern Standard Time (Australia)
is 15 hours ahead of
Eastern Standard Time (North America)
which is 5 hours behind
Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)
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Exactly! None of those things got patch notes! That's my point, I had to wait to hear that my arc didn't work from people who wanted to try it.
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The dev's DO NOT put exploits, or causes of the exploits, in patch notes, unless it affects the overall game. An exploding generator being removed does not warrant an explanation because it doesn't matter overall.
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Destructible objects were in the game for a long time and they all caused damage when destroyed. I have never heard of anyone using them to kill spawns. I assume it can be done...but the amount of bother it would take to herd things close enough would hardly make it worthwhile. Plus...isn't there a limit to the number of destructible objects you can place in any map?
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You aren't seeing the point... people created a Destructable Object objective that is SURROUNDED by Elite Bosses, Bosses, etc. that give extraordinary XP. Destroying the object would auto-kill the surrounding enemies, giving you massive XP with little to no risk. The larger the team, the larger the spawns. The bigger the map, the more objects can be placed.. the more bosses there are for easy XP kills.
It has nothing to do with hearding since all objective objects have built in surrounding enemies.
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I'm done messing around with an arc that has only gotten more genericed and gutted with each patch with no warning or notes.
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Once again, the devs owe you nothing in a way of explaining themselves. You've been playing since 2004, correct? (According to your forum reg. date, unless eBay played a hand with your account.) Well, if you have been playing since 2004, you would know how the Developers work. They are here to give us the game and fix any problems that MAY arise, in any fashion.
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I tried MA and made an arc...my opinion on it is now bleh...more than ever. Looking forward to some dev content that doesn't need editing by me after every patch. MA is a waste.
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MA is a waste to you because you want your way. Your way was changed, much like 99% of us. You either deal with it or walk away. Or complain that you are being singled out by the Devs and expect sympathy since, obviously, no one else was affected.
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
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Since that's been answered by Commander and SpaceNut I'd just like to ask; What story/mission ideas did you have that required importing your own resources? I'm actually quite curious.
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Me thinks someone wanted to upload a Superman emblem and make an "homage" of Superman III, starring Richard Pryor and Christopher Reeves.
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
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Since that's been answered by Commander and SpaceNut I'd just like to ask; What story/mission ideas did you have that required importing your own resources? I'm actually quite curious.
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Me thinks someone wanted to upload a Superman emblem and make an "homage" of Superman III, starring Richard Pryor and Christopher Reeves.
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Come on Commander, let's not be any meaner than necessary. I'm genuinely interested in what he was planning.
But now that you mention it, I hadn't even considered the possibility that he was planning to make a rip-off of a pre-existing story.
Say it ain't so Slashman!
Eastern Standard Time (Australia)
is 15 hours ahead of
Eastern Standard Time (North America)
which is 5 hours behind
Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)
I didn't mean to be, well, mean about it. One of the things that a lot of people expected with the MA was 100% control over arcs they made. Meaning they wanted to create anything and get away with it.
People wanted an ability to import images into arcs, but that was given a "no" stamp due to possible copyright infringement. People wanted to re-create movie, television, and comic book plots. The dev's them stamped a "no" on it, then making the rule that not even homages or parodies of copyrighted works would be allowed.
People even wanted the ability to have "private" arcs, made for only them, their friends, or their supergroup. That was swiftly met with another "no" stamp since making something private could give people the ability to publish an arc with copyrighted content. Which means that it would have an inability to be reported for exploits or violating content rules..
The thing I was trying to point out to Slashman is that he's not being singled out. Everyone that uses the MA has the same restrictions placed on them. That was something that he was overlooking. That he wasn't the only person that had their arc runined due to content being changed/removed.
Then he tried to argue, not that the reasoning behind it was unacceptable, but that the whole MA is useless because "he" had to edit arcs over and over. Well, I don't know of a single person that used the MA that didn't have an arc affected one way or another.
I understand he is venting, but putting up his wall of anger and hate only blocked him from seeing and accepting the truth.
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
Changes with potential to break player-created content should be included in patch notes. There's no reason not to note them once the changes have already been made.
There's also no reason to accuse the OP of breaking the Eula.
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Changes with potential to break player-created content should be included in patch notes. There's no reason not to note them once the changes have already been made.
There's also no reason to accuse the OP of breaking the Eula.
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QFT
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Changes with potential to break player-created content should be included in patch notes. There's no reason not to note them once the changes have already been made.
There's also no reason to accuse the OP of breaking the Eula.
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Exactly. The Dev's can do so without saying something was an exploit. It would be as simple as a line like this:
"Generators are no longer available as destructible objects."
A single sentence like that does not tell anyone how to exploit. But it DOES give a heads up to players that used them that their arc may now no longer function. Do the Dev's "owe" us this? Nope. But it would be courteous of them to do so.
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Come on Commander, let's not be any meaner than necessary. I'm genuinely interested in what he was planning.
But now that you mention it, I hadn't even considered the possibility that he was planning to make a rip-off of a pre-existing story.
Say it ain't so Slashman!
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To set the record straight, I don't have even ONE toon that's a rip-off of something else. I never even made a claws scrapper until they made claws customizable simply because I think it's lame to do silly homages with twisted around names for toons and the wolverine theme has been beaten to death.
All of my toons are original concepts that I create and have their own unique backstory. I happen to think that people have imaginations for a reason and should use them liberally.
And as for what I might want to import that's not there? Lots of stuff! Maybe you aren't too familiar with the mod scene on other games which have user-made content...but the community usually spends thousands of hours making stuff that the developers never add.
If you're familiar with Neverwinter Nights...that's a great example right there. The Community Enhancement Pack added thousands of new armor pieces, weapons, placeable objects, character portraits etc. And that was apart from the people who made their own stuff when the module they were making required it. I still remember when Adam Miller made a mod that had a working dragon riding sequence in it when the developers swore that mounts were impossible for them to do in the game.
And as for what I'd like here. Well for starters, I'd like a tazer baton for NPCs, mission maps that have hackable security gates, lab maps that don't have SO much of everything, some puzzle elements(the community made some very cool puzzles for modules in NWN) and the list goes on.
That's what makes community made content so great in other games...the community can make and use it's own stuff. MA is still extremely limited in every way apart from powerset customization for NPCs. Having MORE stuff taken away as time goes on does not make me a happy camper. And it certainly does not entice me to make more MA arcs.
Sounds like some nice stuff there Slashman.
Thanks for answering, I'll admit I'd drawn a bit of a blank as far as the possibilities for importable content.
For myself though, my main disappointment with MA was with the degree of power customisation. But I'm hopeful that they'll expand the capabilities over time.
Good luck Slashman.
I'll give the story arc you've got in your signature a go when I get online tomorrow morning.
Eastern Standard Time (Australia)
is 15 hours ahead of
Eastern Standard Time (North America)
which is 5 hours behind
Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)
I'm starting to wonder if you're aware of the distinction between 'server side data' and 'client side data' in that post, Slashman. If so, I'm fairly certain that the obvious flaws in what you're suggesting would become readily apparent. Especially when you consider a number of variables (a 100kb limit on MA files in general, the limitations of space on a server-side machine, the way the client/server model most MMOs use interacts) that I don't think you're fully accounting for.
It's possible for games that offer no hard multi-player functionality (ie: individual players tend to host their own content in a more immediately modifiable framework, for a game that's predominately focused in a single-player environment; To wit, both NWN and it's sequel, any Elder Scrolls game [or anything put out by Bethseda using the TES format, like Fallout 3], and so on) because at those points... A grand majority of all the files are hosted on the client end.
That's not what happens in MMOs, and thank god for that. You're still completely and utterly missing the points on a number of things, and I had to try very hard to take you seriously with your 'I am a unique and special snowflake!' vibe running rampant in my brain.
I apologize for any possible misunderstandings as a result of this post. I'm tired as heck right now, and on some significant allergy medications to facilitate breathing. I'm probably not being very tactful or clear at all. 
MA was a great idea with poor implementation. A small handful still use it to try creating decent arcs, but from what I've seen the vast majority of the population just ignores anything but the farms, which they either love or hate.
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I'm starting to wonder if you're aware of the distinction between 'server side data' and 'client side data' in that post, Slashman. If so, I'm fairly certain that the obvious flaws in what you're suggesting would become readily apparent. Especially when you consider a number of variables (a 100kb limit on MA files in general, the limitations of space on a server-side machine, the way the client/server model most MMOs use interacts) that I don't think you're fully accounting for.
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I am very aware of how the MA works. And what client/server model most MMOs use. That has nothing to do with my original complaint.
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It's possible for games that offer no hard multi-player functionality (ie: individual players tend to host their own content in a more immediately modifiable framework, for a game that's predominately focused in a single-player environment; To wit, both NWN and it's sequel, any Elder Scrolls game [or anything put out by Bethseda using the TES format, like Fallout 3], and so on) because at those points... A grand majority of all the files are hosted on the client end.
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And herein lies the problem. This tool that's being touted as the greatest MMO innovation since...well I can't really think of any truly great MMO innovations off the top of my head. In any case...its a VERY limited tool. And that means that what people create with it is also VERY limited. User created content isn't supposed to stifle creativity and limit options. That's why I mentioned before that I was very unenthusiastic about MA in the first place. I saw this coming.
Anyone can write a story. Some people are better than others...but what really distinguishes yours from mine in MA? Have you used a map that no one has seen yet? Do you have an NPC with powers that no one else can access? Do you have some tough and clever puzzles in yours that I didn't think of in mine? We can't even branch story arcs...so failing a mission means jack squat!
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That's not what happens in MMOs, and thank god for that.
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You're right, that doesn't happen in MMOs...which makes them pretty unsuitable for user made content in the first place! That's why MA is so pointless to many as anything other than a farm tool. No matter how many Dev Choice or hall of Fame arcs you run...they will NEVER differentiate themselves from any other arc apart from text and odd power combinations for NPCs. You can't even give temp powers in them!
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You're still completely and utterly missing the points on a number of things, and I had to try very hard to take you seriously with your 'I am a unique and special snowflake!' vibe running rampant in my brain.
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I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm trying to portray myself as 'special' in any way. I'm no different than anyone else...I was simply replying to the whole accusation that I wanted to make a rip off of copyrighted content. That's totally against the whole reason why I play this game. I want to make my own unique toons with a distinctive background. You can interpret that however you like.
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I apologize for any possible misunderstandings as a result of this post. I'm tired as heck right now, and on some significant allergy medications to facilitate breathing. I'm probably not being very tactful or clear at all.
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Get some rest!
Hey. Umm. I play mission arcs in the MA fairly regularly. All story-driven and interesting. I have a great time. My fiance loves to make missions in the Architect for myself and my friends to play.
Just because you cannot do certain things doesn't make the MA "Useless aside from farming". It means that you just have to do other things.
Try running through the "Generation S" story arc by @Dynama. It's detailed, deep, interesting, and ends with either a whimper or an all out brawl after you make a tough choice.
And it was made before issue 16 or GR was even mentioned.
-Rachel-
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No matter how many Dev Choice or hall of Fame arcs you run...they will NEVER differentiate themselves from any other arc apart from text and odd power combinations for NPCs. You can't even give temp powers in them!
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This is how I feel about MA as well.
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That's why MA is so pointless to many as anything other than a farm tool.
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Right. It's totally the lack of scripted gimmicks that keeps people farming in the MA.
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Anyone can write a story. Some people are better than others...but what really distinguishes yours from mine in MA? Have you used a map that no one has seen yet? Do you have an NPC with powers that no one else can access? Do you have some tough and clever puzzles in yours that I didn't think of in mine?
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This part right here is most telling. Whereas you're somehow stifled by the inability to script things (and evidently bothered that you can't be a unique and special snowflake), the rest of us are doing pretty good with "just" customized pre-existing NPCs, custom critters (with customized powersets) from scratch, custom villain groups, custom contacts, custom clues, custom glowies, and custom mission text.
Of course, complaining that the MA is lacking in innovation and features is sort of like being given the Model T back in 1908 and complaining that it didn't even go that fast or get good gas mileage.
Never surrender! Never give up!
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Allowing users to upload their own models or textures would probably be the worst idea ever, if the devs decided to do it. Ignoring the copyright problems, we'd still be flooded with poor quality materials of the eye-bleedingly bad variety. And then of course there's be the nude mods, graphic pictures put up as pictures/wall textures, and other such lewd things. We're much, MUCH better off without such things.
That aside...
While I think there's still some things that could be added to MA to improve what you can make (custom placed mobs, scripting (even if it's just simple), in-mission NPCs with dialog trees, etc..), what we CAN make in MA already is still better than most of the missions in the game. Sure, some of the more recent missions and taskforces outshine what we can do, but for run of the mill missions (most notably the original ones that shipped with the game), we can almost duplicate them entirely... and improve on them.
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I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm trying to portray myself as 'special' in any way. I'm no different than anyone else...I was simply replying to the whole accusation that I wanted to make a rip off of copyrighted content. That's totally against the whole reason why I play this game. I want to make my own unique toons with a distinctive background. You can interpret that however you like.
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All of my toons are original concepts that I create and have their own unique backstory. I happen to think that people have imaginations for a reason and should use them liberally. (Editor's note - bolded this one section because it comes off as rather insulting)
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Yanno, I'm not sure where I got it either. How terribly odd.
Though I'm vaguely certain it has something to do with word choice and specific sentence structure, and may well be a subconscious trait manifesting itself.
Ah well. I'm sure it's nothing.
(Sidebar: I focused on that one particular point, because the rest of the argument is something I'd rather leave to someone far more technically inclined then myself. Suffice to say you're making a lot of assumptions that I feel are causing a negative response that doesn't really need to be there, and while I cannot [and will not] say for certain they are the root of your problem, they may well be a contributing factor to your current attitude about this feature. To clarify a bit [as it's inevitable to be asked for], I think you're expecting far too much of both the feature in question, and of other people's ability to not exaggerate or assuming that they have experiences that equate yours. Both are most likely doomed arguments on your end.)
EDIT: I'm going to take the time to add a personal viewpoint to this, rather then trying to be purely objective (which given the subject matter is rather hard - perception and opinion are two very subjective fields, and anyone stating achieving something 'purely' objective when dealing with either is a damned fool). I don't really give a rat's [censored] about whether someone thinks my arcs or stories (which for the moment are likely bugged, or not to my satisfaction - I have not as yet found time to edit them since i15) are 'unique', 'special', or 'interesting'. Much like I don't really care what people think about me on an internet forum. For all intents and purposes, the grand majority of you are faceless people in a crowded room full of faceless people. With few exceptions (few being a subjective ratio of the total mass), none of you really matter here.
What do I use the MA for then, you ask? I use it as a creative outlet to tell a story that I like. If it's not to my satisfaction, I fix it. If other people like it, or even if they don't like it, I take their considerations to heart (and more heavily weight negative criticism) and will change things if I feel it's necessary. If I'm happy with it? The rest of you can burn, for all I care. I'm sharing it on the off chance that I can give someone else an enjoyable story, and a break from the 'accepted' game canon for a bit.
That's my approach to everything I do that's creative - the characters I roleplay or create, the stories I write, the things I hum to myself or drum on my desk (or heaven help the poor afflicted listeners, attempt to 'sing' [if you can truly call it that]) are to make myself happy. To express myself. To create something and marvel at it for a second.
And if other people enjoy it, too? Wicked-A, but that's not the point. I don't expect everyone to be like myself, though (that'd be a sad, twisted little world), but what I can't understand is people's obsession with being unique and special. Of being different. Which you've stated multiple times that you're rather upset about not being able to achieve.
You have this great chance to express yourself, and instead you choose to focus on something that petty?
It confounds me, sir.
(Tangent: I'd like to state for the record that I'm also a very tolerant person - if that's how you want to roll, fine. But be honest and admit it at least. Dishonesty and denial about something that every thing you've posted in this thread so far is a quite deplorable act, and while you do have the right as a human being to make that decision... That doesn't mean I don't have the right to point it out in the tactless fashion of my choosing. However, I would like to apologize at this juncture if I come off as offensive - I have no way to put this nicely, even if I were in a better state of mind.)
You know I really never had much faith in MA. User created content in an MMO was never something that I thought would work.
The limits of not being able to import any resources and having to confine yourself to everything that's in the game already pretty much killed a lot of my enthusiasm.
Still...misgivings aside, I decided that before I condemn it, I'd give it a solid try. So I made an arc. A pretty decent arc(IMO) that's story driven and solo friendly(pretty much).
Got it working and found the perfect end map to use. I was moderately proud of it. Then patch after patch kept breaking my arc.
The first and harshest blow was the removal of the Paragon Protector Clone lab map. So then after getting a tell that my arc wasn't working I had to chose a stupid generic map that didn't have the room at the end with the clone lab which I had thought was pretty cool.
After the last patch I again get a tell that my arc is invalid. I'm pretty confused because I can't for the life of me think why it would be invalid. Turns out they have now pulled the power generators that you get in some Council maps and in the Marshall Brass/Aeon arc(the ones powering the WSPDR building. They can no longer be used as destructible objects.
It's bad enough that we can't import external resources to flesh out our arcs...why are they continually killing the stuff that we had access to? What's next? It's frustrating as hell that I've spent a good amount of time trying to make at least one decent story in MA and it get's more and more gutted with each passing patch. I give up!