So you really want me to use it for...farms?
By
Commander,
Posted on: 2009-07-19 12:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
In response to your edit:
I'm not up in arms over my being unable to do something 'special and unique' in the MA. I'm upset because NO ONE can. I'm not a professional modder or anything like that. I just like playing great stuff that other people have made.
When I asked what makes someone's arc stand out from mine...I'm not making a better or worse comparison. I'm saying that the tools aren't there for someone who WANTS to make something truly epic and amazing to do that.
I actually enjoy playing the simple straight-forward missions at times as well. MA doesn't really offer much more than that though...except for greatly bloated rewards for those who want to farm it.
When I play mods in other games...I'm enjoying the fact that the people did something that the devs could never or would never do or have the time for. I'm enjoying that there wasn't anything suppressing their ability to create as they choose.
MA stamps a limit on a lot of things. And while those things may be necessary because its an MMO...I'm not looking at it and saying 'aw...too bad it's an MMO'. I'm looking at it and saying here is a game that implemented a feature that wasn't really all it could be and maybe that time should have gone to something else.
I took the time to create something with MA and give it a chance...it's been broken multiple times and I honestly have no idea how many people may have been interested in playing my arc that tried and gave up after realizing it wasn't working.
Whatever agenda you think I have or assumptions you think I'm making about people, well I can't do much more to change your mind and I really am not inclined to anymore at this point. You have chosen to take offense at something that was never meant to be offensive. It was meant to illustrate a point.
A flawed point.
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I'm not up in arms over my being unable to do something 'special and unique' in the MA. I'm upset because NO ONE can.
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Backed up by hyperbole and sensationalist word choice and sentence structure, like the above.
I'm therefore finding it very hard to take you seriously about this matter, and would like to point out that I'm not really upset - I'm simply confused as to why you keep thinking that just because you can't do something, that no one else can. Why because you can't create what qualifies as 'unique' or 'interesting' to you, that nobody can.
That strikes me as very selfish and petty, and I don't understand it one bit. :/
If anything, I find the entire situation depressing. Which I suppose contradicts my point about not being upset, in a way.
1. I hope you are feeling better soon.
2. Thank you for providing some very astute observations about the OP.
I find myself agreeing with everything you posted here, and I must admit I'm a little envious of your ability to express yourself.
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1. I hope you are feeling better soon.
2. Thank you for providing some very astute observations about the OP.
I find myself agreeing with everything you posted here, and I must admit I'm a little envious of your ability to express yourself.
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I assure you, it's entirely the sleep deprivation. 
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Of course, complaining that the MA is lacking in innovation and features is sort of like being given the Model T back in 1908 and complaining that it didn't even go that fast or get good gas mileage.
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Right...except that the 2009 Lexus ES 350 didn't exist in 1908. While many better examples of community mod tools and content exist all over the place for any number of games. So what's your point again?
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In an MMO? Framed within the games themselves? With all of the user-made content hosted on the game severs? I'll also point out that while there are some good modding tools out there, there's also plenty that have a nasty learning curve. One of the selling points of the MA is its accessibility.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
I find it amusing that the OP is up in arms (though he says he's not) about "no one being able" to make unique content.
This game is not "City of Your Uniqueness" it's "City of Heroes." We're all just small characters in a universe based on the Freedom Phalanx, Arachnos, Rikti, etc. We're not the main stars of the game, we're just in their world. I don't have a problem with that, but I know of many that do.
Many want to be their own personal Superman... many want to be that to others... many want to be "THE" main characters, ignoring the actual story or the stories of others.
The MA is made for us to let our creativity flow within THEIR world. Which means, we work with what we are given. If you don't like that, then don't complain your creativity is being held down. You have what you are given but you want to believe you are entitled to more?
This isn't Neverwinter Nights. This isn't their community. You were not promised what they have for their "community content creator." Assuming that you will have everything they have only shows that your world is based around you, and only you.
To hold your inability over others because you could not find a way to make the MA work for you is insane. The Devs didn't do this to you. You did it to yourself.
The humourous thing is that this whole thread started because of your nerdrage over the Generator being removed. After being told why, you quickly spun it that there is no way to be creative in the MA because you want what other games have. Once again, the only thing promised to you was an ability to make storyarcs. That promise was delivered. You still have an ability... just that you have to work with what WE ALL have.
I just find this thread amusing and insulting at the same time. It reminds me of the child at the toy store that has the option to choose anything in the store... yet wants what the child outside is playing with. Tantrum ensues, anger, rage, etc. But the fact of the matter is... if you want what is outside, then walk through the door. Don't sit inside and make the rest of us miserable over what "you" can't have.
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
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This tool that's being touted as the greatest MMO innovation since...well I can't really think of any truly great MMO innovations off the top of my head. In any case...its a VERY limited tool. And that means that what people create with it is also VERY limited. User created content isn't supposed to stifle creativity and limit options. That's why I mentioned before that I was very unenthusiastic about MA in the first place. I saw this coming.
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Of course it5's limited. You'd have been a fool not to have seen that coming. Don't you think even the developers think the engine is limited? Everyone is working with limitations and no one is out to get you or screw up your arc in particular. I'm sorry that the things you wanted to use broke your story arc and caused you to make changes you didn't want to make. I'm sure that's frustrating. It doesn't justify acting like a diva, though. Lots of arcs were affected, even more weren't. There's still a lot to work with and the removal of a few maps doesn't make the MA less innovative.
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Anyone can write a story. Some people are better than others...but what really distinguishes yours from mine in MA? Have you used a map that no one has seen yet? Do you have an NPC with powers that no one else can access? Do you have some tough and clever puzzles in yours that I didn't think of in mine? We can't even branch story arcs...so failing a mission means jack squat!
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This is ridiculous. Do you really think that if there's a map that's seldom used that you're going to be the only one to use it? There are far fewer maps out there than there are players. If you expect the MAP to make your story stand out, then you are always going to be disappointed. Anyone has access to any map and that map is not going to make you look different. An NPC with powers no one else can access? That's another crutch and imagine all the people who would cry because they can't have it. If you need to rely on things no one else can have instead of original ideas and clever writing, that's your own flaw and not a flaw of the system.
I've been playing quite a few of the MA arcs recently and every one of them had access to the same system, the same maps, and the same characters and powers. Yet some stood out far and above the rest. None of them relied on a super secret special map or powers no one else had access to. If you think that's what makes a good story, you have it all wrong.
Most novels, with a few notable exceptions, are printed in plain black text on plain paper. Some are amazing and stand out over others and some are complete trash. The authors of books who don't do well don't get to blame their failure on limited fonts and mechanics. Low budget films can be better than movies with millions of dollars in the budgets. If your work is solid, it should be able to stand without the bells and whistles supporting it.
Are bells and whistles cool? Sure. Do they make people "ooh" and "ahh"? Certainly. They can enhance a good story and make it better. But they aren't a crutch you should count on to support something that can't stand on its own. Finding a way to stand out and be exceptional is up to you, not the technology.
~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!
With all the farming/pl'ing exploiters still utilizing the AE for an unintended purpose, the DEVs have no other choice but to keep nerfing the AE until they get to the point that they have surgically removed the ability to farm and pl in the AE.
As those of the community should have known long ago, the DEVs clearly stated that the AE was not to be used as farming or power-leveling tools and that players caught doing so would be punished. That is clear.
So all these nerfs are really do the players that insist that they have a right to exploit the game. If they would simply stop abusing the game then we could get on with using the AE for what it was intended to be - a playable story-creation tool for players to share their story ideas.
It isn't that hard to understand. I really do think that the farmers/pl'r are pretty much complete jerks for not understanding that by now.
I don't understand why they are pulling maps the maps that they are pulling out of the MA. I haven't tried to figure it out, but I do think that I have seen and have reported maps that I thought should be pulled that haven't been pulled. The maps that I reported tended to have dynamic spawns built into the mission that have nothing to do with mission setting and often complete mission goals by themselves.
As far as exploding items go, they are being abused by farmers/pl'ers to intentionally cause damage to spawns.
Though I think that this was one of the original reasons that these were added to "normal" missions, I do know that they are being abused.
I don't understand why they couldn't stay in the MA and still have the explosive effect - just remove or greatly decrease the damage component (ie. keep the knockback, but reduce to 1 hit point or something).
I think that the MA/AE is a great idea.
I really have a great distaste for the players that insist that they have a right to abuse the system.
They are cheaters. Cheaters ruin the game play experience of everyone that they come in contact with. Cheaters think that they aren't hurting anyone else by cheating. We all know that in reality that isn't the case; a cheater is always cheating someone or something or they aren't cheating.
I see the effects of the cheating in the game every time I play. I know it affects my gaming experience.
It is affecting my game experience right now.
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The limits of not being able to import any resources and having to confine yourself to everything that's in the game already pretty much killed a lot of my enthusiasm.
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Your lack of creativity isn't MA's fault.
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Then patch after patch kept breaking my arc.
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Just keep chanting the mantra gameplay may change during online play.
And also, cut back on your caffeine intake.
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It's bad enough that we can't import external resources to flesh out our arcs...why are they continually killing the stuff that we had access to?
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Because wily players figured out how to extract maximum rewards from them. Kinda like the rest of the game.
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What's next?
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They're going to keep changing things?
Just a wild guess.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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It isn't that hard to understand. I really do think that the farmers/pl'r are pretty much complete jerks for not understanding that by now.
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Please define "farming".
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
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Players were using that fact to exploit the MA by using the generators to kill spawns, thusly earning them XP without much effort.
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And apparently it was easier to just remove them than to make it so that the damage done by the generator reduces the XP you'd get, like how it works with Allies and Escorts who deal damage.
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Exactly! None of those things got patch notes! That's my point, I had to wait to hear that my arc didn't work from people who wanted to try it.
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Some of mine were invalidated but didn't even get flagged as such when I checked the list. Had to run them to find out myself.
They really need to do a better job of that and a tell informing the author would be very, very nice.
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It isn't that hard to understand. I really do think that the farmers/pl'r are pretty much complete jerks for not understanding that by now.
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Please define "farming".
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Don't make fun of the 'special' kid!
=P
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Exactly! None of those things got patch notes! That's my point, I had to wait to hear that my arc didn't work from people who wanted to try it.
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Some of mine were invalidated but didn't even get flagged as such when I checked the list. Had to run them to find out myself.
They really need to do a better job of that and a tell informing the author would be very, very nice.
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Or heck, even a pop-up on login, when there is a new patch, warning people to check their arcs, since X has been changed and if your arc contains X it may now be invalid.
Instead, we don't even get a patch note on the generators. The patch note on destructible objects simply says "Removed powers from Destructible Object mission objectives that harmed or affected players in some way." This implies that the old object will still be there, just work differently, which is not true.
And yes, I realize that MA authors are a "small" portion of the playerbase, the removal of one MA item isn't a big deal for the game overall. Well neither is the tweaking of how one power works in PvP, and that gets a patch note.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Something to keep in mind about them not telling us about the generators--they told us about the mitos being removed and those were known to be an exploit.
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Something to keep in mind about them not telling us about the generators--they told us about the mitos being removed and those were known to be an exploit.
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The patch notes also told us that destructible objects no longer affect players and NPCs, and that was known to be exploitable too. However the patch note 1: did not warn authors that the change could invalidate their arcs, and 2: did not mention that any objects had been removed entirely.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Unlimited customization can also lead to unchecked game imbalance. Note; can.
Granted, there's already 'imbalance' in regards to powers and stuff I'm sure - since that's why things are always tweaked (or nerfed), and those who find exploits and things are the ones best to find those imbalances - if they report it, or when they're caught.
(And yes, there's already imbalance since people are PL'ing to 50 in a day; but it's what the devs are trying to fix already.)
And unless the person who made the temp power of a nuclear bomb only available after the end of a 5-part mission for lvl 50's only... Sure, your arc may get really popular with the lowbies who like the idea of going into a difficulty-5 boss mission and blowing the crap out of everything in their wake solo.. but that would be imbalanced. Not to mention pvp.
Do I feel limited when trying to make an arc? Sure. Frustrated at times when I can't find what I want? Sure. Bummed that I don't have more save space? Duh. But it pushes me to find a way around the limitations and come up with a new way of doing things.
Currently, I see this AE stuff as a beginning.. when the bugs and exploits are worked out, perhaps there will be a few programmers who will be dedicated to add to the stuff we can customize. Or perhaps add more options for the current stuff.
Stuff!
Also - in my opinion as an artist, I see limitations put on us all the time. It just means we have to stretch out of the box a bit more and work around them. Will it change our final project piece? Sure. But perhaps it will be better for it.
Once again, it's not the Devs job to babysit your arc. You are fully responsible for all content you create.
Which means their patch notes, that describe anything that you might use, are more than enough information for you to gather and think, "Hey, maybe that means my arc?"
Did you ever think maybe they 'forgot' to mention it was removed, or 'forgot' that they didn't replace it with one that wasn't exploitable?
"To err is human..." and the last time I checked, all of the Devs are human.
Things that become exploitable are because of errors that slip by. We've seen plenty. This could be the same.
So try and calm down.
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
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You know I really never had much faith in MA. User created content in an MMO was never something that I thought would work.
The limits of not being able to import any resources and having to confine yourself to everything that's in the game already pretty much killed a lot of my enthusiasm.
Still...misgivings aside, I decided that before I condemn it, I'd give it a solid try. So I made an arc. A pretty decent arc(IMO) that's story driven and solo friendly(pretty much).
Got it working and found the perfect end map to use. I was moderately proud of it. Then patch after patch kept breaking my arc.
The first and harshest blow was the removal of the Paragon Protector Clone lab map. So then after getting a tell that my arc wasn't working I had to chose a stupid generic map that didn't have the room at the end with the clone lab which I had thought was pretty cool.
After the last patch I again get a tell that my arc is invalid. I'm pretty confused because I can't for the life of me think why it would be invalid. Turns out they have now pulled the power generators that you get in some Council maps and in the Marshall Brass/Aeon arc(the ones powering the WSPDR building. They can no longer be used as destructible objects.
It's bad enough that we can't import external resources to flesh out our arcs...why are they continually killing the stuff that we had access to? What's next? It's frustrating as hell that I've spent a good amount of time trying to make at least one decent story in MA and it get's more and more gutted with each passing patch. I give up!
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one map, one enemy group. that's all MA should be. that way no one will ever be able to exploit/break it. then everyone can have an equal and balanced gaming experience.
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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Once again, it's not the Devs job to babysit your arc. You are fully responsible for all content you create.
Which means their patch notes, that describe anything that you might use, are more than enough information for you to gather and think, "Hey, maybe that means my arc?"
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Well it's not the devs' job to babysit PvP either. Or to babysit people's favorite farm missions, so nobody gets all excited about getting the Dreck mission and finds out it's had a timer added.
The point of patch notes is to inform the player base about changes to the game. You would think users of the shiny, new, much-hyped feature would get the same consideration other portions of the playerbase get when some minor aspect of a part of the game they enjoy is changed.
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Did you ever think maybe they 'forgot' to mention it was removed, or 'forgot' that they didn't replace it with one that wasn't exploitable?
"To err is human..." and the last time I checked, all of the Devs are human.
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Well then maybe we need to rant more, so a dev will see it and realize they screwed up and give me back my generator Or maybe we just need to know which redname to send MA-related PMs to.
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So try and calm down.
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No, you calm down!
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
NO, YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!
Oh, wait... wrong thread.
Actually, I believe Hero 1's dept. is the MA, but not sure it it's just the background work or the overall running of it. Might need to contact a QA Dev, like Blue Steel or Ghost Falcon.
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
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The point of patch notes is to inform the player base about changes to the game. You would think users of the shiny, new, much-hyped feature would get the same consideration other portions of the playerbase get when some minor aspect of a part of the game they enjoy is changed.
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As long as there have been patch notes, they've been missing stuff that annoys people.
You aren't being persecuted, sorry.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
lol nethergoat. love the siggy
The validity of your statment does not increase in direct proportion with the frequency and volume at which you speak it.
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The point of patch notes is to inform the player base about changes to the game. You would think users of the shiny, new, much-hyped feature would get the same consideration other portions of the playerbase get when some minor aspect of a part of the game they enjoy is changed.
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As long as there have been patch notes, they've been missing stuff that annoys people.
You aren't being persecuted, sorry.
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Yeah and whenever they miss stuff, everyone affected is all "Stealth-nerf!" and "DOOOOOMMMM!" and "Devs hate regen!" Eventually some dev sees it and goes "not a bug, we forgot the patch note, sorry." or "oops, that's a bug, we're working on a fix."
Most of the AE-related DOOOOMMM-crying has been farm-related, we need more stealth-nerf DOOOOOMMM.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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This part right here is most telling. Whereas you're somehow stifled by the inability to script things (and evidently bothered that you can't be a unique and special snowflake), the rest of us are doing pretty good with "just" customized pre-existing NPCs, custom critters (with customized powersets) from scratch, custom villain groups, custom contacts, custom clues, custom glowies, and custom mission text.
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By the 'rest of us' are you referring to a greater portion of the community who loves playing story arcs versus those that want to farm the MA? I'd personally love to see those numbers myself...I'm sure it would be interesting.
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Of course, complaining that the MA is lacking in innovation and features is sort of like being given the Model T back in 1908 and complaining that it didn't even go that fast or get good gas mileage.
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Right...except that the 2009 Lexus ES 350 didn't exist in 1908. While many better examples of community mod tools and content exist all over the place for any number of games. So what's your point again?
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Yanno, I'm not sure where I got it either. How terribly odd.
Though I'm vaguely certain it has something to do with word choice and specific sentence structure, and may well be a subconscious trait manifesting itself.
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Ok...let me rephrase that, since its causing such a commotion.
I don't make toons based on other toons in comics or tv/movies. I try(wherever possible) to make something that people can't look at and go...oh that's a Hulk, Thor, Green Lantern etc. ripoff. For me...there's no real point to it. If other people want to do that then by all means go on. I just thought it was frowned upon and likely to get the character genericed anyway(something that's happened to many of my friends in the game). Why would I give myself the same headache if can avoid it?
So no...I don't want to use the MA to bring in copyrighted material or do some homage to a superhero that already has his/her own book/movie/tv series. What would be the point?
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I think you're expecting far too much of both the feature in question, and of other people's ability to not exaggerate or assuming that they have experiences that equate yours.
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I may well be expecting too much. Still, I wonder just how many people are truly using and experiencing MA as the Devs believed it would be used based on the response they got from the forums when they first announced it. And could all that development time have been spent making general improvements to the core game and QoL...or even revamping some of the unused zones and old content?