AT Respecs, the next evolution for CoX?

With Going Rogue, we will be able to change sides.

With MA we can create custom critters with different power sets.

PVP, the Arenas, Power Proliferation, all this, one would assume that there is a lot of datamining going on.

Doesn't it seem that one peice of the natural evolution for CoX is the ability to respec to a different AT, or powerset within that AT?

Personally, I think yes, only because I have had to re-roll my main several times the Devs create a new powerset that brings the original concept for my main closer to fruition

Discuss!

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no.

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Welcome to the forum. You have posted one of the oft repeated suggestions, "Give us a full respec."

Disclaimer

Yes. This is a cut and paste reply that I keep handy, as well as a quick bit of instruction on how to search. Neither are meant to cause fights or to be insulting. The search instructions are in, not just because forum rules say flat out to search, but to help you and anyone else reading this use the search tool effectively.

The body of the cut and paste reply is the way it is because we've seen these arguments numerous times before. They're a summary of the salient points that come up each time. They are not here to insult you, make you feel stupid or otherwise "bring you down a peg." Instead, they are meant as instruction and information. Please read through the points and the explanation behind them to see the issues that are commonly brought up in response. They may not always match your suggestion 100% - in fact, you may have explained around one or two of them - but they're there for consideration and refinement of your idea.

Yes, I do look forward to the time, with some of these suggestions, that someone not only addresses all the points, but does so exceptionally well. It'll probably be added to the end of the cut/paste reply, with credit. For now, though, read and consider the points. They really are just there to help you, and move discussion along to help ideas evolve.

If you're going to see this and say an "evil forum vet is just shooting down your idea," or "You think you're the last word because of your post count," you're wrong. Heck, if you say the second, you've just worried more about my post count than I have in the last four plus years.

TL,DR reply

No. It breaks things too badly.

Searching tips

1. Click on "Search" up at the top of the forum.
2. On the left, under "Forum(s) to search," select "Suggestions and ideas."
3. On the right, Keyword Search Terms. This is probably where your problem was if you did search. Try the following, exactly as typed:

+respec -"re: "

This will search for anything with the string "Respec" in the title, including Full Respec, I don't get any respect, and Respec Trial. .The -re: portion of it removes replies, so you'll see the root of every thread that comes up, letting you see just how many threads there are on this. (The last helps for other subjects, as well.)

Be sure to put the space between the colon and last quote.

4. Click the "In subject" radio button. This is a search, not a cute blonde in a bikini. Here, you want to ignore the body.

5. Leave Username Search blank.

6. Date range, Newer Than, change the 1 to a 3, and the time to Months.

7. Result format doesn't matter. Click on "Submit."

Now, on to the topic at hand....

Why a full respec is not a good idea for COH.

So, you've played your Apathy/Dual Wet Noodle Tank to 50 and decided you don't like him. You've come to the forums and said "Why not let me completely respec the character!"

Well, people consider a "full respec" to be different things. I'm going to cover a complete and total character respec. If some of them don't apply, well, this comes up enough for this to be a copy and paste reply.

There are four things that define your character:
1. Archetype
2. Origin
3. Primary powerset
4. Secondary powerset

When people talk about a full respec, they're either talking about the powersets or the whole enchilada.

A Respec is short for respecification - altering what your character can do. This can be through reordering the levels you took powers, reassigning slots, and/or changing power pools. You'll note that none of this touches on changing the four listed items. The reason being that if any of those change, it's not the same character. A respec is not recreation or reimagining. It's tweaking your character a bit.

Now, let's go through some of these "full respecs."

Primary/Secondary

You're sure to hear this repeated a good bit - Just because you've played one set, doesn't mean you know how to play them all.

For instance, my namesake tank is a Fire/Superstrength tank. I know how he plays. The most similar powerset to him at the time of writing is Dark Armor. It's resistance based, it has no knockback protection, it has a damage aura, a self heal that does damage - it even has a self rez as its tier9.

They don't play anything alike. (I can say this, because I also have a version that's DA/SS.) Fire has no Psi protection. It has no stealth. Burn has a far different effect than Oppressive Gloom, and nothing similar to Cloak of Fear. It calls for a thoroughly different style of play. With Fire, I can leave my toggles on and go to town. With Dark Armor, I have to be selective, or the times I have to herd stragglers (for instance) won't work exceptionally well. Dark Armor also does not have anything like Consume to help out with Endurance - that's in Dark Melee.

With "similar" sets being that different - try Fire vs Stone. Or Invulnerability. You now have a set at or near 50 (when most people seem to mention wanting this - "I have a 50 that...") that you don't know how to slot effectively (which means you'll be doing *at least* one more respec) and don't know how to play effectively.

That's just changing *one* side of the equation. Now add in, say, going from Stone Melee to Dark Melee. Different effects, with *very* different affects on your survivability. And you won't know how to slot that, either, or how well they synergize.

Similarly, a Stormie plays vastly differently from an Empath, or a Dark, or a Rad. Earth Control is nothing like Illusion. Combo-chasing with Dual Blades won't help you with Martial Arts.

How do I know that this ends up being a mess?

Beta testing. The devs have, on rare occasion, bumped up characters to specific levels. The most notable was when Recluse's Victory came out for testing. Everyone was made level 40 - and it was a *mess.* Sure, people made copies of their own characters, and those worked out. Then there were those (many, many of those) who said "Hey, I've never had a X/Y before, I'll make one of those!"

Like I said, it was a mess. You could very easily tell who had done that versus making copies of characters they knew.

Now, yes, over time you'll learn your powerset - but in the meantime, you're not going to be very effective, or very happy.

Archetype

Now, given what I just said about powersets, imagine a *whole different AT.* Your tank is now an Empath? Really? You know how to survive as a Blaster because you played a Scrapper? And don't even get me started on epics.

If *sets* are that different, Archetype is that times ten.

Impact on enhancements

IOs are a big part of the game right now. Think about IO'ing out your character. You get your KB protection, sets and the like, potentially spending millions (or more) on finishing up these sets, or working on merits or whatnot.

Now, you change your primary - again, we'll take a tank - from a resistance based one to a defense based one.

Guess what is now useless to you. You *may* have a power to stick that resist set in, somewhere, but now you're defense based - and those resist sets dont' work for you any more. That Knockback set isn't taken any more. It's even worse when you say you want to switch AT - what is a Blaster going to do with a resist set? What is a Scrapper going to do with Sting of the Manticore or Malaise's Illusions?

This isn't even touching on the fact that *you could only retain ten enhancements.* That's 1 2/3 six-slotted powers.

And you'd have nobody to blame for all that lost time and INF but yourself...

Origin

Origin holds a strange place in this list. I'm just going to touch on it briefly.

Origin used to matter *vastly,* back in pre-beta. It determined how many powers you could learn and how skilled you could get with them. The system was scrapped, and for a long time it was mostly an RP item, as well as determining which enhancements you could use.

It now has *some* impact in the game with some temp powers - the "helper" power you get at level 1 (throwing knives, taser, mutagen, etc.) as well as some of the vet powers. The main impact, though, would be if you'd equipped with DOs or SOs, with the lost INF. That said, you would be able to get some of it back. Origin's probably the least of the problems with a full respec. Though some would, of course, complain that they no longer get a damage bonus or what have you - and who knows what the devs may do with this in the future.

Gameplay

There are also two other things to consider.

1. The game is designed around alts.

Seriously. If this were Guild Wars, for instance, with severely limited slots, I could see wanting to do a complete respec. But by default, you can make over 100 characters before feeling a pinch - and can purchase up to 24 additional slots per server, if you so choose. Don't like one set, make some others and try them out.

2. It's just not that hard to level.

Seriously... it's not. With half debt inside missions, patrol XP, double XP weekends, XP smoothing, XP adjustments (typically up,) debt reduction everywhere... it just *isnt'* hard to level. And levelling "honestly" means you're learning your powersets, how they work with each other and others and hopefully how to use them best - which will only make you a stronger player.


In closing, let me just say "No. Roll an alt."


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No. For the love of god, no!


Edit: Damn! If only I opened this thread a second later I could have been spared being forced to write that, cause Bill would have already responded

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[ QUOTE ]

Discuss!

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no, and you can't make me.

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Kittens give Morbo gas.

I dunno Bill, lately a lot of the things that no one thought would come to the game are either here or on the way.

Flashbacks, side switching, body changing and power customization are a few that jump right out at me. Personally, I hope total respecs never see the light of day. But these guys have surprised me latley.

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We've been getting things that everyone and their mom (including the Devs) have said they wanted. Full Respecs are something the devs said they wouldn't do, not because of technology/time limitations, but due to not liking the idea.

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[ QUOTE ]

Doesn't it seem that one peice of the natural evolution for CoX is the ability to respec to a different AT, or powerset within that AT?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems apples and oranges (ie. comparing those features with the prospect of running a character up to a desired level with an "easy" powerset then changing to a different one in an instant.

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My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.

i think if this idea ever saw the light of day, it would be the same time that servers would be merged and we would all find out that the game was being run and developed by 3 yr olds.

so to this idea, i say abso-freakin-lutely not.

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/agree with Bills Cut and paste.

To the OP, no you didn't HAVE to reroll ever, assuming by that you mean delete and start over.

Several players I know have made newer version of old characters (so say SS/WP over SS/Inv) nad either made a variant name, or moved to a different server or renamed thier old character, and had the exact name on the new one.

On the plus side after levelling you do have two 50s, rather than just 1.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

Thanks Memphis BIll for your cut and paste reply.
And yes I understand you point wasnt to flame or insult anyone and I greatly apprecaite it.

However. I am aware of the search fuction, I am also aware of Necroposting for the sake of bringing up an old topic and starting flame wars.

Here I try to open the conversation back up after who knows how long it has beenfor the sake of discussion. Like Color Customization for example. Now its happening.

And this isnt a suggection or an idea. so it doesnt belong in that forum. Its belongs in General discussion because thats exactly what this is for. I am asking for a dialogue between players and the nature of COX Evolution... specifically AT Respecs, but it could grow into other things which is why i brought up some examples.

Anyway, to everyone else, who responded without throwing names or insults, thanks, this is what I was looking for. Yes or No as to why this is or isnt the next step in COX Evolution.

And to you sir (not MB), ive been here since beta. My post count doesnt mean im a noob, it means im a long time reader and seldom poster. k thanks!

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To the OP, no you didn't HAVE to reroll ever

[/ QUOTE ] I don't think he was being literal when he said he had to reroll. But this is the internet, so nothing really surprises me anymore.

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/agree with Bills Cut and paste.

To the OP, no you didn't HAVE to reroll ever, assuming by that you mean delete and start over.

Several players I know have made newer version of old characters (so say SS/WP over SS/Inv) nad either made a variant name, or moved to a different server or renamed thier old character, and had the exact name on the new one.

On the plus side after levelling you do have two 50s, rather than just 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah! Delete a toon! No way, thats a waste of time. I would just rename them and create a new characer with my original name. Name variants are horrible. I would be caught dead before i created a toon like N1hm instead of Nyhm. Its original or it doesnt get created. but to each his own.

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Name variants are horrible. I would be caught dead before i created a toon like N1hm instead of Nyhm. Its original or it doesnt get created.

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This part I can agree with.

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Thanks Memphis BIll for your cut and paste reply.
And yes I understand you point wasnt to flame or insult anyone and I greatly apprecaite it.

However. I am aware of the search fuction, I am also aware of Necroposting for the sake of bringing up an old topic and starting flame wars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that's just part of the general reply.
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Here I try to open the conversation back up after who knows how long it has beenfor the sake of discussion. Like Color Customization for example. Now its happening.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, there's a difference.

Color customization was a "Probably won't happen" for a very specific reason - not "It couldn't be done," but "We have a staff of 15 people. The colors as they sit are 'baked into' the powers - redoing them would be so time intensive you'd have a long stretch with absolutely nothing new."

They've hired more people. It was never said it would not be done, or that the devs were against it, just that it was impractical with the people they had at the time.

They've hired more. And with the larger staff, it's now practical - and thus being introduced with I16.

AT/Powerset respecs, however, they have said they would not consider - that those are so integral to a character they would not allow a respec.

It's the difference, in a way, between "I don't have money to replace the car right now, so I'll drive it a while longer" and "No, I am NOT going to gut the family sedan and turn it into a drag racer." One's based on a situation that could change ("Hey, I got a great bonus from work and can afford that car now!") The other's a stated position that's frankly not up for discusison by the person who said it.

As for my personal belief - no, I don't think they'd be a good idea. The AT/pri/sec are a core of the character. Colors are not. Jumping versus running (power pools) are not. I just don't think it'd be a wise idea.

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Name variants are horrible. I would be caught dead before i created a toon like N1hm instead of Nyhm.

[/ QUOTE ]That's most definitely not the type of name variant he meant.

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<QR> While I wont comment on how likely I think it would be I will add that I hope it never occurs. I think it would be bad for the game.

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I couldn't disagree more with Bill's cut and paste post.

I still think a full respec is a bad idea, but not for those reasons.

I don't buy the whole, "You have to learn your char on the way to 50 or you won't know how to play" argument. I have never bought it and I never will.

1.) This game isn't that hard to learn.
2.) Plenty of people play this game for years and still make plenty of bad build\design\strategy\overall play choices.
2.5) Plenty of people pick up the nuances of this game very quickly.
3.) If some one on your team is really that bad, you can always ask him to leave or kick him.
4.) You learn to play a char by playing a character. You learn the powers by using the powers. Wether you get them at level 50 or 1 at a time from level 1, you get better with time. If you play the game long enough the learning curve for all of them gets much less steep.

I never here, "Ohh that guy just turned 32 and got nova, well we can't invite him to the team until he is level 33 or 34 and knows how to use it right."



That rant done with, full respecs are a bad idea.

I have sever Altitis. It's mainly because I want to try as many power sets and archetypes as I can to see how everthing works. A lot of other people are the same way. If I can get 1 char to 50 then simply do full respecs to change my AT, Primary, Secondary at will, then I could go through each Archetype and powerset in the game. Have tried all of the powers, (since I am level 50 I'd respec into a fully built character.) all of the ATs and see all the different play choices this game has to offer. I could do this all within a couple days or weeks or a month after getting to 50. (Depending on how long I toy witch each set.)

So then I have tried all the powers and ATs in the game, I got 1 50 to be able to do it. So what's to keep me playing here? Sure the missions are cool and some of the content is a neat experience, but that is going to lose it's flavor quick after having tried all the powers in the game and I'm going to stop spending money on the game and go to the next new thing.

I wouldn't be the only one, and the Developers would have just handed a giant short cut to anyone of the player base who has a level 50 character. (Probably the majority of the playerbase at this point, but I don't have numbers to back that up.) Now players get to experienece a ton of the game content in the form of various ATs and power sets in not a lot of time. That works against the game since, it's a subscription based game and the developers want people to hang around and pay them a monthly fee, which they won't do for very long if they can get through the bulk of the game's content in a month or two. (Yes it is very possible to get to level 50 in a month, then spend the next month trying out every power and AT etc if you can fully respec that character.)

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"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker

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I couldn't disagree more with Bill's cut and paste post.

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Except for this part...

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Gameplay
There are also two other things to consider.
1. The game is designed around alts.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I guess you do find something you agree with in that post since thats the whole thrust of yours.

The Cut and Paste is a COLLECTION of objections. You don't have to agree with all of them and if you have a totally new one I'm sure it will be added.

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Let's just hope that we never have to deal with the kinds of people who would use not only the AE to jet themselves to 50, but then *reroll themselves a new level 50 without ever having played that AT!*

GOD no. Just... NO.

And likely: about 3-5 weeks. This subject comes up so much it's ridiculous to have it again so soon before a major release which gives us something else that's pretty stunningly different than what we've had already. We do NOT need to have people who don't know their toon's powers, playing level 50s. They're already a pain in the [censored], let's keep them to a minimum.

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Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed

Properly implemented, this would be a bad idea that would ruin the game.

But there's no way we can be sure it will be properly implemented -- it might turn out much, much worse.

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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno Bill, lately a lot of the things that no one thought would come to the game are either here or on the way.

Flashbacks, side switching, body changing and power customization are a few that jump right out at me. Personally, I hope total respecs never see the light of day. But these guys have surprised me latley.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bill's copy pasta pretty much covers the reasons not to allow this functionality. As far as I am concerned, we'll never allow this...but, of course, I've been wrong before.

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[ QUOTE ]
I dunno Bill, lately a lot of the things that no one thought would come to the game are either here or on the way.

Flashbacks, side switching, body changing and power customization are a few that jump right out at me. Personally, I hope total respecs never see the light of day. But these guys have surprised me latley.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bill's copy pasta pretty much covers the reasons not to allow this functionality. As far as I am concerned, we'll never allow this...but, of course, I've been wrong before.

[/ QUOTE ]No, you haven't been. Except when you don't agree with me. Then you're wrong.

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[ QUOTE ]
I dunno Bill, lately a lot of the things that no one thought would come to the game are either here or on the way.

Flashbacks, side switching, body changing and power customization are a few that jump right out at me. Personally, I hope total respecs never see the light of day. But these guys have surprised me latley.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bill's copy pasta pretty much covers the reasons not to allow this functionality. As far as I am concerned, we'll never allow this...but, of course, I've been wrong before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmmmm Copy Pasta. *drools*

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*snerk* copypasta. Does that come with awesome sauce?

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Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed

Copy Pasta™

Even better the second time!

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