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Actually, he paid for the privledge, as did anyone that preordered.
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Technically, you didn't pay for the pre-order. If you put down, say, 15 bucks at EB games, then you got the Pre-Order box. However, you also had 15 bucks deducted from the cost of the game at the time of purchase. So, your still paying the exact same amount of money you would have if you DIDN'T get the pre-order box, you just give them some of the money as a guarantee that you will actually be coming back to buy the product later.
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When money changes hands its called "paying". He or she plunked down his money early to have the privledge of playing early.
Now I've never pre-ordered, so if he doesnt buy the game when it ships, does he get that pre-order fee back? My guess would be no, because he's actually paying to have a guaranteed copy waiting for him at the store. There's no guarantee he'll buy it.
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But teh context seemed like he was saying people payed EXTRA to play early - not payed early to play early.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Actually, he paid for the privledge, as did anyone that preordered.
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Technically, you didn't pay for the pre-order. If you put down, say, 15 bucks at EB games, then you got the Pre-Order box. However, you also had 15 bucks deducted from the cost of the game at the time of purchase. So, your still paying the exact same amount of money you would have if you DIDN'T get the pre-order box, you just give them some of the money as a guarantee that you will actually be coming back to buy the product later.
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When money changes hands its called "paying". He or she plunked down his money early to have the privledge of playing early.
Now I've never pre-ordered, so if he doesnt buy the game when it ships, does he get that pre-order fee back? My guess would be no, because he's actually paying to have a guaranteed copy waiting for him at the store. There's no guarantee he'll buy it.
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But teh context seemed like he was saying people payed EXTRA to play early - not payed early to play early.
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meh.. so sue me.. I was picking a nit to a nit-pick 
~Liberty~
The LEGION (CoH) - The Fallen LEGION (CoV)
Forget your fears and want no more
50's - Renkoro, Remorseless
~Virtue~
Angry Angels / Jaded Angels
Global - @Puretone
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I realize that my post from before sounded... offending to thoes who collect badges and that it is important to them.
Sorry if I offended. Didn't mean to.
To thoes who read peoples info... even the badges... thank you for taking to time to get to know my character. Hopefully we'll play some day and the Roll-play will be fun.
Last and not least...
Spawns still get stuck in walls.
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I'm sure you didn't mean to offend anyone, and didn't really. My original response to you was simply meant to point out the idea there are many ways to approach CoH/CoV. None of them right or wrong, good or bad. I'm sure there are as many people who'd think the way I play is silly as there are who'd think the way you do is. Pointing fingers never helps. Trying to label people by some facet of the way they play is equally unsound. For instance, I'd hazard to guess that most (not all mind you) hardcore badge collectors couldn't care less about roleplaying and vise-versa. Yes, I will read your info if I meet you in-game, but I do it as much to see if you have a build worth a damn for teaming as much as to see if you bothered to flesh out your toon with a bio. 
BTW, "Roll-play" is what you do when you don't roleplay, but that's just minor phonetic quibble on my part. And whether or not I roleplay, PvP, Hami-raid, PL, farm non-timed Drecks, and/or badge collect in CoH/CoV is immaterial to this discussion. You know what they say about assumption...
As to your implication that the Devs are squandering precious bug fighting/content developing resources wasting time with a badge system you clearly don't care about, I can't really agree with that very much. Not only have the Devs allowed critical game mechanics problems go unfixed since day one (pre-badges) such as spawns getting stuck in walls, but they also let the wrong Shard TF badge pics (an arguably minor five minute fix) slip by for easily six months or more. It would seem the Devs' priorities lean more towards implementing things like ED and I5 nerfs rather than fixing any lingering bugs, whether they are badge related or not. Frankly I'd love to see more content/bug fixing going on myself, but I can assure you they aren't wasting -any- undo effort on badges judging by how many of them are becoming buggy now too.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
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That logic does not apply here Moon.
We can take our level 50, exemp down and run new content with our friends. I've done every mission in The Hollows, Striga, Croatoa, and the new PVP Zones with my main.
We didn't outlevel and miss our chance. Every other kill # badge in the game is accessible! Isolator was put into a zone we no longer have access too.
And yes, we can roll a new character and get Isolator. And I've done so with every character I've made since Issue 2.
But my two 50s, the two characters I made the first week COH was released, and my two main badge collector characters, have no way to get it. We're just asking for a way to do that.
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For the record, I don't even like the fact that you can exempler down and gain badges that way and hope they remove the ability to do that. It hurts replayability, and it's brought about the nasty little buisness of people "selling" spots on badge missions. (Like to get the Spelunker badge)
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*Hi-fives LiquidX*
Right there with ya. I'd rather see the Flashback system for going back and getting stuff you missed. That would make it MUCH more interesting... that right there would hopefully settle this entire arguement.
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To be honest, I'm against the Flashback system to. It would hurt replayability.
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That logic does not apply here Moon.
We can take our level 50, exemp down and run new content with our friends. I've done every mission in The Hollows, Striga, Croatoa, and the new PVP Zones with my main.
We didn't outlevel and miss our chance. Every other kill # badge in the game is accessible! Isolator was put into a zone we no longer have access too.
And yes, we can roll a new character and get Isolator. And I've done so with every character I've made since Issue 2.
But my two 50s, the two characters I made the first week COH was released, and my two main badge collector characters, have no way to get it. We're just asking for a way to do that.
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For the record, I don't even like the fact that you can exempler down and gain badges that way and hope they remove the ability to do that. It hurts replayability, and it's brought about the nasty little buisness of people "selling" spots on badge missions. (Like to get the Spelunker badge)
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*Hi-fives LiquidX*
Right there with ya. I'd rather see the Flashback system for going back and getting stuff you missed. That would make it MUCH more interesting... that right there would hopefully settle this entire arguement.
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To be honest, I'm against the Flashback system to. It would hurt replayability.
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I'm against not having a sidekick/exemplar system. I've been to other MMO's without it. They are a social wasteland. CoX without the social aspect of playing with whomever you want because you can't do the same missions would result in level stratification .. a level elitism if you will, that is socially hard to break into until you become one of the elite.
No thanks, I'll pass.. just like I passed on those other games.
~Liberty~
The LEGION (CoH) - The Fallen LEGION (CoV)
Forget your fears and want no more
50's - Renkoro, Remorseless
~Virtue~
Angry Angels / Jaded Angels
Global - @Puretone
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That logic does not apply here Moon.
We can take our level 50, exemp down and run new content with our friends. I've done every mission in The Hollows, Striga, Croatoa, and the new PVP Zones with my main.
We didn't outlevel and miss our chance. Every other kill # badge in the game is accessible! Isolator was put into a zone we no longer have access too.
And yes, we can roll a new character and get Isolator. And I've done so with every character I've made since Issue 2.
But my two 50s, the two characters I made the first week COH was released, and my two main badge collector characters, have no way to get it. We're just asking for a way to do that.
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For the record, I don't even like the fact that you can exempler down and gain badges that way and hope they remove the ability to do that. It hurts replayability, and it's brought about the nasty little buisness of people "selling" spots on badge missions. (Like to get the Spelunker badge)
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*Hi-fives LiquidX*
Right there with ya. I'd rather see the Flashback system for going back and getting stuff you missed. That would make it MUCH more interesting... that right there would hopefully settle this entire arguement.
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To be honest, I'm against the Flashback system to. It would hurt replayability.
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I'm against not having a sidekick/exemplar system. I've been to other MMO's without it. They are a social wasteland. CoX without the social aspect of playing with whomever you want because you can't do the same missions would result in level stratification .. a level elitism if you will, that is socially hard to break into until you become one of the elite.
No thanks, I'll pass.. just like I passed on those other games.
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You misunderstand me. I'm *not* against Sidekicking and Exemplering. I think that in itself is a good system. I'm against being able to exempler down and get badges that you missed. *thats* what I am against.
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That logic does not apply here Moon.
We can take our level 50, exemp down and run new content with our friends. I've done every mission in The Hollows, Striga, Croatoa, and the new PVP Zones with my main.
We didn't outlevel and miss our chance. Every other kill # badge in the game is accessible! Isolator was put into a zone we no longer have access too.
And yes, we can roll a new character and get Isolator. And I've done so with every character I've made since Issue 2.
But my two 50s, the two characters I made the first week COH was released, and my two main badge collector characters, have no way to get it. We're just asking for a way to do that.
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For the record, I don't even like the fact that you can exempler down and gain badges that way and hope they remove the ability to do that. It hurts replayability, and it's brought about the nasty little buisness of people "selling" spots on badge missions. (Like to get the Spelunker badge)
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*Hi-fives LiquidX*
Right there with ya. I'd rather see the Flashback system for going back and getting stuff you missed. That would make it MUCH more interesting... that right there would hopefully settle this entire arguement.
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To be honest, I'm against the Flashback system to. It would hurt replayability.
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I'm against not having a sidekick/exemplar system. I've been to other MMO's without it. They are a social wasteland. CoX without the social aspect of playing with whomever you want because you can't do the same missions would result in level stratification .. a level elitism if you will, that is socially hard to break into until you become one of the elite.
No thanks, I'll pass.. just like I passed on those other games.
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You misunderstand me. I'm *not* against Sidekicking and Exemplering. I think that in itself is a good system. I'm against being able to exempler down and get badges that you missed. *thats* what I am against.
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Especially when you consider that once inside the mission, the exemplared person can simply un-exemplar, walk through the mission and get the badge doing no work at all.
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To be honest, I'm against the Flashback system to. It would hurt replayability.
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I'm against not having a sidekick/exemplar system. I've been to other MMO's without it. They are a social wasteland. CoX without the social aspect of playing with whomever you want because you can't do the same missions would result in level stratification .. a level elitism if you will, that is socially hard to break into until you become one of the elite.
No thanks, I'll pass.. just like I passed on those other games.
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You misunderstand me. I'm *not* against Sidekicking and Exemplering. I think that in itself is a good system. I'm against being able to exempler down and get badges that you missed. *thats* what I am against.
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To not allow exemplars to earn those badges would raise a whole new slew of greed-based teaming problems. CoX would become City of Soloists.
'Sorry I need to do my mishs so that I dont outlevel 'badge X' far an accolade.'
Actually offering the badge for the TF's and missions gives the L50 a reason to exemplar down and do them. The longer you can play on one toon, *that* stretches out replayability.
Now, it *is* possible to get every badge .. mission, TF and Zone (like the Hollows, Striga and Croatoa) that's offered in the game at the level it's offered (barring special events). The problem is, you have to only do your mishs, and then you'll need debt at several points if you team too often. I have a Tank on Virtue that did just that.
To accomplish that however, I had to be mission greedy and semi-antisocial. It was an experiment, so I know it's possible. Do I want to play that way all the time? No thanks.
~Liberty~
The LEGION (CoH) - The Fallen LEGION (CoV)
Forget your fears and want no more
50's - Renkoro, Remorseless
~Virtue~
Angry Angels / Jaded Angels
Global - @Puretone
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That logic does not apply here Moon.
We can take our level 50, exemp down and run new content with our friends. I've done every mission in The Hollows, Striga, Croatoa, and the new PVP Zones with my main.
We didn't outlevel and miss our chance. Every other kill # badge in the game is accessible! Isolator was put into a zone we no longer have access too.
And yes, we can roll a new character and get Isolator. And I've done so with every character I've made since Issue 2.
But my two 50s, the two characters I made the first week COH was released, and my two main badge collector characters, have no way to get it. We're just asking for a way to do that.
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For the record, I don't even like the fact that you can exempler down and gain badges that way and hope they remove the ability to do that. It hurts replayability, and it's brought about the nasty little buisness of people "selling" spots on badge missions. (Like to get the Spelunker badge)
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*Hi-fives LiquidX*
Right there with ya. I'd rather see the Flashback system for going back and getting stuff you missed. That would make it MUCH more interesting... that right there would hopefully settle this entire arguement.
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To be honest, I'm against the Flashback system to. It would hurt replayability.
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I'm against not having a sidekick/exemplar system. I've been to other MMO's without it. They are a social wasteland. CoX without the social aspect of playing with whomever you want because you can't do the same missions would result in level stratification .. a level elitism if you will, that is socially hard to break into until you become one of the elite.
No thanks, I'll pass.. just like I passed on those other games.
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You misunderstand me. I'm *not* against Sidekicking and Exemplering. I think that in itself is a good system. I'm against being able to exempler down and get badges that you missed. *thats* what I am against.
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Especially when you consider that once inside the mission, the exemplared person can simply un-exemplar, walk through the mission and get the badge doing no work at all.
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I do agree with the "no exemplaring" idea, but I have to say not liking the Flashback idea for the same reason sounds like a bit of a hard line to me.
If you had only the powers and slots you had at that level, how would it really hurt the replay value?
interesting... selling team space to 50's as examplers for badge opportunities...
Hmmmmnnnnnn....
Thanks for the advice to the noob. 
"SMACK" snap out of it!
Responding to a couple of you here.
I don't mind exemping down to get badges. I don't see anything wrong with that. Friends and SG mates help each other out like that.
I absolutely despise the "selling" of badge missions. Thankfully, we don't see it that often on Triumph and when we do, people usually tell them how despicable it is to do something like that.
As for Flashback. I'm actually for the Flashback system. Your reasons Liquid are the exact same as the devs: Replayability. But I disagree with that totally. I think adding Flashback would allow even more immersion into the COH world for players and their favorite character.
Emerald Fusion is my first character ever created in COH. He's my first 50. I just had my L50 one year anniversary last week and I still play him a lot and still call him my main. He's even still got his very first costume. I still have more fun playing him than I do playing the countless heroes and villains I've created across every server. Don't get me wrong, I have fun playing my controllers, scrappers, tanks and all the rest, but I'd like to be able to log on as my main and go back to every contact I ever outleveled and finish their assignments, get the contacts I never had with him and do their missions too. Even though I've done the content numerous times with other characters I still want to do it with my main.
And when I'm done with every single thing that is possible? I'll PVP, or badge hunt, or base raid, or just help my friends and SG Mate. Or I could roll another alt until more new content comes out that I can do with Emerald Fusion.
The same thing with Isolator. Even though I have Isolator on numerous characters I would like to have the same opportunity to earn it on Emerald Fusion.
Fusion Force
I'm actually surprised at all the resistance this idea has garnered. I personally think it's a nice idea, with about the same niceness level as the badge system itself. I keep wondering, why not let us go back and pick up badges that we missed?
Replayability? It's not often that I disagree with LiquidX, but here I have to. CoH is a roleplaying game, and that element plays strongly for me. I have a main character, and this is the character I want to accomplish things with. If I miss a badge mission or story arc somewhere in the 30s (and this has happened, to me and some friends, because the story arc system was bugged to hell), I'm supposed to reroll a brand new character and play all the way up to those missions again, just so I can get the badge? Badges damn well better do more than just look pretty if I have to go through that to collect them. "Oops, missed a badge at level 39. Better start over, I was sooooo close that time!"
That's not replayability for the simple fact that many people, myself included, won't participate in such a timesink. Not to mention that constantly watching for the next badge mission can really kill the immersion factor. Who's going to brag about the fact that they have "All the badges, spread over 6 characters!"
Sure replayability is important, but what does it matter what character I replay the game with? I've got almost more hours logged on my main character, a level 50, than my other 3 level 50s combined. THAT'S replayability. Not running through the same generic warehouse full of Skulls or Rikti or Family or Tsoo or CoT, or Malta, or Carnies, or Sky Raiders, or whatever, but actually finding things you like to do in the game (and hopefully doing them more than once), and finding the game continually interesting. If replayability is not established on the player's terms, then it's not replayability. It's just a timesink.
If you like badges, and you like to hunt badges, then you should be able to. No harm in that.
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Emerald_Fusion TYed:
Thank you Pamprin! Excellent!
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You're welcome. ^_^ The point stands too... putting aside some of the other anti-Isolator etc. arguements, nobody here is demanding the earth itself be moved just to make a badge available in an ongoing manner. We are really asking for a very small amount of effort... one that also seems appropriate as a means of reversing a so far quite disliked design decision. (i.e. introducing Isolator knowing full well it would not be available to the older characters generally ill-informed newer players.)
And secondly, even if you already have the Isolator badge, introducing a small Portal mission is giving everyone in Paragon another little slice of content with which to occupy themselves... it's not like this is something exclusive to the badge-hunting crowd we are proposing. In fact, I'm thinking that there's a good chance quite a lot of players are going to get a real kick out of facing off against the Contaminated once again, in much the way that it's fun to revisit the Clockwork King later on in the game. Plus, it retroactively strengthens the backstory of Outbreak. Not a bad return for throwing together a few pre-existing assets, eh?
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Pax_Arcana replied:
Ah, but MMOs differ from thigns like Super Mario in this way: new content is always being added. There's always another event to look forward to (or to be surprised with, like the Valentines Day event kinda did - no advanced fanfare, just "oh by the way - have fun, guys!").
I think that enhances replay value. Sure, your first Hero didn't get isolator, and DID get lots of the Halloween badges. That was then, this is now - your NEXT hero can get Isolator, and won't gtthe Haloween badges. Already, right there, wihtout looking at Origin, Power Sets, choices WRT TFs and the like ... your experience with the game will be different.
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You are quite right there; MMOs are indeed a very different beast. And furthermore, I am only too aware that my own expectations of how a game should work do not gel perfectly with the MMO genre in particular. And you are quite right; it is entirely possible to interpret the creation of two heroes - one 'then', one 'now' - as representing two divergent playing experiences, just by looking at the divide in badges. That is, technically, a different experience second time around; and therefore should incite replay value. ^_^
Now, I'm going to digress a little, but I hope it makes sense. ^_^
Psychologists have spent a fair bit of time looking into the condition of human reasoning, and one of the interesting conclusions some have come to is the idea that most human beings are slave to their unconcious - at least so far as decision making is concerned.
Effectively, a human being will make a decision - driven unconciously, almost on impulse - and then they will begin the process of adding a framework of logic and reason to support their decision, often entirely ignoring rational fact where it cannot be integrated into ideas. Quite simply, people think that they arrive at a conclusion by a process of considered and logical thought; whereas the thruth is, they create their conclusion and then work backwards.
Think of a heated argument you once had with someone; I'm sure the more time you had to think about it, the more reasons you could come up with as to why you were in the right... right?
I said I was going to digress. ^_^
Now, I don't mention this to invalidate your ideas or thoughts on this particular matter. I will say quite clearly - I am human, and I too am subject to this process of conclusion-then-reasoning. What initially started out - in my mind at least - as well-rationed thought became the target of greater introspection. Now, I realise that whilst some of my arguments have merit, they are primarily motivated by two concerns:
1. I am a perfectionist, and in turn a completist. I want to collect all possible badges, for the sake of having all possible badges.
2. I am greatly opposed to the idea of any content, within a game, being made permanently unavailable. (Except, obviously, once the game is 'complete', i.e. everything there is to do, is done - as games are humanly finite. Furthermore, 'finite' is perhaps not the best term to throw around so far as an MMORPG is concerned, but certainly, as I'm sure the clamouring end-game content-crowd will happily tell you - sometimes it is possible to do almost all of everything. ^_^)
I would not blame you if, at this point, you wonder where I'm going with all of this. ^_^
We all have our own unconcious motivations. Mine are above. ^_^ And we have certainly we have talked about the idea that one-shot badges being made readily available once more would create a 'cheapening' effect for those that already own them. (I think your comparison to a coin mint / market situation was quite succint on this point. ^_^) Simply put, to have something in limited supply is a good thing. ^_^ I'm no pop psychologist, but there we have a motivation - that to you, there is a special quality inherent in a limited supply model.
I point this out because I am afraid that if we do not look at our underlying motivations, we are in danger of simply going around in circles. We can be very polite about it, but nothing comes of a discussion (at least I generally find) we are able to understand, *really* understand the opposite side. What I am not afraid of, is to say that I do not understand your side of the discussion. But I do not say that as a critique of your arguments; rather, that my own inability to understand is derived from the mental block that I hold. I am however *willing* to understand; and I would much rather see a proposed solution crafted that addresses the concerns of all (to the best of our ability).
Which is funny, considering how much of this is moot anyway. ^_^
Essentially, what I hope for is more of a directly-logical discussion on the pros and cons of the solutions being thrown about, in terms of some established goals - such as, would such a solution make more players more satisfied with the game, or less? Would such solutions increase the game revenues, or decrease subscription durations? Is it going to ultimately lead to better numbers for Cryptic and a happier population of people can go back and get their character a badge... or if they reroll an alt and get it with them instead?
This, I think, is what really needs to be talked about. ^___^
As I recall, from reading about the badge:log the character in during that month, and get the badge. It's a point of "yeah, I've been playing this character for a loooong time"; a '50 with Celebrant impresses me slightly more than a '50 wihtout that badge. The "With" is obviously an old hand, who's been playing COH for quite a while now.
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Ah, but you see ... I don't have that badge. Never will, either. I wasn't part of COH back then ... I didn't even have a computer that could THINK of running COH at the time, and as for ISP ... lol ... I was still on 56.6 dialup (at best), right up until this past september.
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Hahaha, no, I totally understand! ^_^ I was on 56k too for the longest time, and it was through NetZero too. (I don't know about everyone else, but I found them to be just a terrible, terrible company. Personally I'm (weirdly) for outsourcing in the sense that the world is globalizing anyway - but for pete's sakes, if you are going to move your entire customer service operation to a country that does speak, as a primary language, that of your customers - then make sure your new employees are bloody well fluent before giving them what is primarily a communication-based role!) And after that, I had to switch my machines around... so now I'm running CoH with an Intel onboard video solution. O.o
As so far as the Celebrant badge goes... I was there, and collected it on my three characters. (Did I mention that already? I felt like I did... weird deja vu moment, sorry.) I think it struck me particularly because compared to many of the other event badges, it just didn't seem that 'special', in terms of the requirements needed to acquire it. But I also think this particular line of thinking came about because I saw 'special' as to mean 'requiring a great feat to acquire', whereas I can see now that you use the term more to describe a limited supply situation. ^_^
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But those beads aren't specific to the year in which you went to Mardi gras. And Mardi Gras is every year, not "once and once only".
So a better analogy, IMO, would be ...oh, heck, how about (since I'm Boston born and bred) your tickets to the World Series, proving you were there when the Sox finally won the darned thing again.
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See, I knew if I brought in an analogy, it would be 'amended'. ^_^ Hehe, nah... I realise now that when someone modifies another person's analogy, what they are really saying is "Hey, you see the situation like this... but this is how *I* see it." And I see what you are getting at, too; that Mardi Gras is indeed an annual event, as opposed to - say - the Winter Lord event, which has so far taken place all of once.
I think where we diverge here is that I don't see a "Winter Lord Event", so much as an "Xmas Event". Does that make any sense? That essentially, in my eyes, the Winter Lord is as intrinsic and annual (in Paragon) as Christmas trees and candy canes. Similarly, I was rather surprised that they did not bring back the Winter Lord this year (which adds some credence to your view of you things, so far as they are in line with the Dev team, mayhaps) - but this may have also been driven by the "Winter Lord XP Farming Frenzy Bonanza" incident.
So, to try and turn the discussion a little more along the lines I discussed earlier... To me, at least so far as the Winter Lord is concerned; to never reuse that particular piece of content just seems somewhat inefficient and wasteful. I think we are all quite aware by now that Cryptic has (understandably) limited resources, and the time of the Developers is at a premium; therefore, we do not want to waste their time. This is why some would argue against paying any particular attention to the Isolator badge, purely on time and effort grounds.
At the same time, there is a marvelous giant monster that is currently gathering dust. And certainly, repurposing and reusing content is a great deal more efficient than building it entirely from scratch. Sure, we could chalk this one up to some wayward design (mistakes do happen but still; is the situation worth salvaging? And if so, surely players will want to see a badge attached to such a creature?
At this point, it seems to me that the question is more on of "Should we have Celebrant (1) / Celebrant (2) / Celebrant (3) set of badges?" versus "Should we have a (generic) Celebrant badge?"
As for the baseball analogy... I'm sorry, I really don't know that much about baseball or the World Series! ^_^
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Or, a truly more direct parallel - in the military, being part of a military operation in a specific theater, during a specific span of time, gets you a service ribbon for that place/time/etc. The only folks sporting service ribbons for Desert Storm are the guys who were THERE - even if they were "only" supply clerks sitting a hundred miles or mroe behind the lines. Doesn't matter if you were a 20+ year career soldier, or a wet-behind-the-ears kid fresh from basic training ... if you were playing in that particular sandbox, you get the ribbon for it. They were there, "on the day" if you will, and that's all it takes.
Guys that retired three months before then, or who weren't deployed to Kuwait? No service ribbon. Doesn't matter if they're bloody Generals with more political connections than you could shake a stick at ... no service ribbon. They just weren't there at the time.
That is what event-limited badges are like, IMO.
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Definately getting you now. ^_^ Like you said, once you've missed the bus, you've missed the bloody bus. By way of comparison... I agree, but I feel that if you wait for a while, another bus comes along. ^_^
So I think we see where we are each coming from on this. You espouse a degree of supply-related quality; whereas I believe that (within the practicalities of actually doing the legwork) that it is more important not to limit supply. Now the question becomes, which way is better for the players, the game, and the Developers?
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"Elite" is perhaps a bit strong of a word, but ... I'd say I see a certain value in the very fact that some badges ARE in limited supply.
Perhaps it will help you to understand this, if I point out that in my youth, I was an avid (if horribly naieve and amateur) numismatist. Er, that means "coin collector". I still have a few of my early prizes,too ... hung onto because of their relative scarcity, and/or the interesting historical relevance some have.
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Yeah, 'elite' is definately a bit too strong... but all the way through this post I've struggled to come up with a better term. So far, "supply-related quality" is the best mouthful I've managed to create... all suggestions gratefully welcomed. ^_^
Also, the example of numismatism did help me understand; thank you for raising it.
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For example - I have an extremely poor-condition coin, a copper disk about an inch-and-a-quarter across; it's an 18th century British copper penny. It's been physically abused (not by me, mind), and looks like it was hit in the middle with something - hit quite hard, because there's a sizeable dent (the fanciful side of me wants to say "maybe it was shot by something", heh). All told - it's just a dented disk of dark brown-black copper. The bit that makes it so special?
The date is "1_96", with either a 7 or 9 in the "_" spot; it's so worn down there, it's very difficult to see. I can tell you, though, that it is definitely a "7" there - because the name on the coin ...? George III. Yeah, the very guy the U.S. rebelled against. Kinda neat to have found that coin, here in America, nearly two hundred years later (at the time I found it tucked away in an old box from a flea market, anyway).
Of course, it's "just" a silly bit of copper, worn almost to unrecognisability, badly dented, and bearing the discolering patina of centuries of neglect and abuse.
I also have some paper currency, oneof which I particularly like;it's Austrian, from sometime around 1930 or 1940 - yep, it's worth precisely diddly as money, 'cause it's in Reichsmarks.
All 500,000 of them.
I like it 'cause it's a paper note with a face value of "one half million", PLUS, it has mild historical significance. In reality, of course, it's justone of many tens of thousands of identical piees of equally-devalued paper. (Inflation being what it was, I'd be surprised if that note would have bought more than a half a loaf of bread, at the time. If that much.)
...
But those two things, still consider to be special. There aren't that many objects of their nature in the world, and I - little insignificant unimportant me - happen to have them. That's incredibly cool.
I view "event limited" badges much the same way. It's like collectible coins ... if you mint more, they stop being worth as much. The value comes from their being in limited supply.
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This was extremely helpful. ^_^ There's not much for me to say here, as I will be retreading some of my earlier comments. Suffice to say, I have a much better understanding of your position, and I am thankful that you gave the time and effort to help me understand where you are coming from. ^_^ Also, as a side note, I hear those Reichsmarks used to make the most wonderful kites.
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You misunderstand how I respect someone with, for continued example, "Celebrant". I don't assume they're any good at the game ... but I become cognisant of the fact that they've seen thegame grow and develop for far longer than I have. (Or if you prefer, they have weathered more Nerf-Storms than I have. ^_^)
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Hahaha, yeah! I'm beginning to think they should have a badge for Regenners, "I Live For The Bat". But I understand; that to hold the Celebrant badge is essentially to carry a visible mark of (relative) veteran status. I think the problem in particular for me lies with the fact that one had to actually log in to lay claim to the badge; as has been mentioned, there are those players dating back as far as the beta that do not, for one reason or another, have the badge. In my mind, I would rather have seen the badge awarded to characters automatically via a data-mining operation; or even have it set so that any character from an account with a suitably-veteran creation date receives the badge the moment they log on. Unfortuntately, without thinking about the matter too much, I also suspect both posibilities are on the side of "More effort than it's worth."
Thinking about it, I suspect I have issues with Celebrant in particular more because of the way it was designed, handled and distributed, rather than anything else. And also, thinking about it... the badge actually has a very distinct number '1' as part of it's design. So I think your idea for a Celebrant (1) / Celebrant (2) etc. is very much the manner in which the badge will be awarded in future.
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I'd say this shows something:
You have the badges, and so, they're nothing special to you. Thus, you don't see any risk of a loss of value inherent in everyone having them.
I don't have the badges, and thus see them as something special - thus, I immediately become concerned that allowing "cheap knockoffs" to flood the market would cheapen the badges themselves.
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Hmm... it's definately an interesting idea. ^_^ Truely, I find that once I've picked up a particular badge, my thoughts turn not to how I am going to enjoy said badge, but rather, which badge is next on the list... Having said that, before or after getting the badges, I was unconcerned with any sort of 'cheapening' scenario. If anything, I've always tried to encourage as many people as possible to get the badges; be it by dropping out of a team and giving my spot to someone else for collecting Devilfish; or offering the infamous fortune teller mission to as many people as possible with no concern of monetary reward.
I just enjoy collecting the badges; and in turn I hope to amass the the most complete collection possible, simply for the sakes of having a complete collection. My thoughts as such turn mainly towards helping others do the same, irregardless of whether or not they had the same (time-based) opportunities that I did.
Another interesting point to make, just as I'm thinking about it... When I first started playing CoH, I had a good deal of spare time on my hands. I collected the badges, I had fun with the special events. ^_^ (Although the Halloween and Xmas / Winter Lord events were very difficult, as my two alts were still quite low level as a result of being Isolator-rerolled.) Now, over the last nine months, my time has evaporated to a premium. There have been times when several weeks alone can pass before I log in; I simply don't have the time to do anything else but work myself into an early grave. Sad, but true.
(Thank bloody heavens for things calming down this week, too.)
When Xmas 2005 rolled around, I went and found what information I could about the badges; and then I went at it. One badge for picking up a jetpack; another badge for completing the Heros versus Villains mission. Two badges! Excellent work. Log off.
Except, of course, there were three badges - I'd missed out on Toy Collector, because the information on it was a tad scarce. I only found out about it towards the end of the event, and promptly went to work opening the necessary two hundred presents (which, personally, I thought was something of a silly amount.) It took me just under two hours. And I simply didn't have time to do it with my alts too... so for the first time ever, I missed out on a badge with them.
Now fast-forward to Valentine's Day. I picked up the three badges for my main; and it was fun too, as I was able to do much of the missions alongside a really great villain. ^_^ Even Snaptooth wasn't too bad, as - after being horrified and beaten down by his super-hard third incarnation - I discovered I could keep him knocked down most of the time by throwing Air Superiority into the mix.
My alts?
Didn't even log in with them.
I mean, what was the point? I'm sure there are plenty of forumgoers at this point that think I'm being melodramatic and childish; they may even tell me so. And quite frankly, they may well be right; the idea of having "everything or nothing" is something that popped up in my childhood. (Not, coincidentally, in a Varuca Salt-esque setting.)
But the remaining fact is, as I stated earlier - I am a completist. I am a perfectionist. And to me, missing one badge - just one - is tantamount to failure. It is disheartening, and demoralizing. I want to know that if I play well, and take it slowly, then I can make it through to the end of the game with what amounts to a 100% record - but on two characters now, that is not - and never can be - possible.
So I could have been playing on for a couple of extra hours with my alts, just getting them the Valentine's badges. But I didn't. It no longer appealed to me. So instead, for the first time in a long time, I got back to levelling my main, and getting a little bit closer to the end of the game. I could have been busy entertaining myself with a well-crafted timesink... but not anymore.
Like I said, it's just a tad melodramatic, and bit childish. But I think the question here is not so much "Wow, what on earth is wrong with this person?" so much as "Just what percentage of population does this person actively represent?"
Therein lies to me the answer as to whether or not badges should be retroactively available.
Would it help, or hinder?
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Kungas displayed great understanding:
As for the latter, as a sometimes substitute teacher, you have my sympathy. But compared to the obviously HUGE amount of feeling the obsessive collectors are holding on this issue . . . it just doesn't justify denying them.
I don't understand why Isolator is so important - or why any badge without a power attached is so important. But the people who care most about badges, and there are a lot of them, want this.
Just let them have it.
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I don't think there is anything I can add other than, bravo. Not for agreeing with the aims of the pro-Isolator crowd... but for coming into a charged environment, keeping a clear head, and showing sympathy and pragmatic support to a group that otherwise do not conform to your worldview. em/ applaud. ^_^
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The_PMD answered:
It's honestly the attitude I hear from most of the people in this thread. "I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT!"
There's no other real reason why the devs should put this in. Some people think they are entitled to ALL the content in the game, and think they're being ripped off if they don't have access to it all. I disagree with you that this is a reasonable position. I think it's very unreasonable and unrealistic. This is an MMO...the devs are attempting to give us an ever-changing ever-expanding world to play in. As such, there is NO WAY that all the content would or should be available to every single toon. Toon and player are different. Isolator is available to every PLAYER: go roll an alt and get it. But to expect any one toon to get all the content is unreasonable. The devs are all but telling us this, and it's central to their concept of the game. Look at the evidence: They have limited edition badges. There are a wide variety of Archetypes. The character creation is the best part of the game. There is virtually no post-50 content. What does it add up to? THE DEVS WANT YOU TO ROLL ALTS! They don't want you to be able to do every bit of content with one character. The game is set up so that you experience all the content across MANY characters.
Giving Isolator to pre-i2 toons isn't going to happen unless the Devs fundamentally change their ideas about how this game is to be played and enjoyed.
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Hmm... I still think that 'Varuca Salt' is a bit harsh. She was the greediest of the greedy; a child spoiled rotten to the core. And I'm certainly not looking to stir the pot, but it seems to me that the louder, more brash responses had, so far, come from the anti-Isolator side of things. (Although to be fair, I am biased; also, it seems that in this respect, things have evened recently or even gone completely the other way with some more... 'impassioned' persons throwing their hat into the ring.)
Now, you raise some interesting points, and I don't think I am going to be able to answer all of them in this post. But I do look forward to talking about it a little bit more in future. Suffice to say, I think you are right that the Developers want to push forward altoholicism; after all, that was the very reasoning behind the creation of the Kheldians and whatever other epic archtypes may be coming down the pipeline.
Let's just say, I agree in principle to the idea that not every character is going to be able to enjoy every piece of content. That makes sense to me... I think the problem I have is that I do not agree with where the lines are being drawn that divide one player's experience from another. To expand on this...
To begin with, every player cannot experience all of the content. When you first roll a character, you must pick an origin; and that origin determines the first (five?) levels of content that you experience. There is no way, at present nor I doubt in future, to change your origin and enjoy a different... 'path' of origin-based content. And this is just the start; the Devs have been talking for some time about introducing far more origin-based material outside of that first introductory experience.
Heck, now players even get origin-based temporary powers to set out with! I never got that when I started. ^_^
However, and here is an important difference, I feel: we do not mind this so much; because there are no long-lasting implications of that early content. Irrespective of being a Technology Blaster or Magic Controller or a Natural Scrapper; one will still be able to enjoy the same task forces, collect the same badges...
To put it another way - despite this 'seperation of content', everyone is still in the same boat. This is something (as seen in my choice of formatting!) that I think needs to be strongly emphasized. I don't mind that you got to do missions only a Science hero gets to do; you know what? I've got some Mutant missions, and *you* don't get to do those.
There are no Haves and Have-Nots; just a Swastika-esque situation where all paths, though different, ultimately lead to the same destination.
I would *love* to see more path-dependant content. I would love to see more origin-specific missions, more AT-specific objectives... to me, that seems like a really great reason to go back, roll a new character and enjoy everything the game has to offer from a totally new perspective! Some elements of this approach are already to be seen in the Kheldian AT.
But this not the case with, to my mind, the current badge situation. What we have here is a problem whereby an activity - that I am almost *sure* is designed to take advantage of a certain anal-retentive (here's hoping the censor didn't just eat that) mindset - actively works against the very people it is aimed at. And it seems like a very small degree of effort need be expended to resolve this problem.
What I see - again, coloured by own experiences - is a problem where, at present, there is a group of first-class heroes, and a group of second-class heroes. And for an utterly arbitrary reason - the creation date - one group of heroes may NEVER attain something the other group has. You want to set it up so that the game provides replay value by presenting multiple content paths? Go for it! You want to give the game replay value by haphazardly and actively introducting uneccesary divides into the player population? Hmm... I can't say that seems like the best way of promoting a reroll-replay approach to me.
I think it would be great if one of the people you talk to in Outbreak TOLD you about the badge system and mentioned Isolator then new players could get it. ( this goes for CoV to and it's hiden badge)
As for older toons sorry I have to say I'm against it being given out to them ( and plz note my main doesn't have it) becuase then people would be whanting the other badges they missed after all if you get Isolator I should get another chance at the holiday badges I missed out on do to my net company chrashing over the holidays, or give me a chance to earn the badge for the 1st anvierssy. Note this is not a whine to get those badges this is a exp. of what people would start demanding
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I think it would be great if one of the people you talk to in Outbreak TOLD you about the badge system and mentioned Isolator then new players could get it. ( this goes for CoV to and it's hiden badge)
As for older toons sorry I have to say I'm against it being given out to them ( and plz note my main doesn't have it) becuase then people would be whanting the other badges they missed after all if you get Isolator I should get another chance at the holiday badges I missed out on do to my net company chrashing over the holidays, or give me a chance to earn the badge for the 1st anvierssy. Note this is not a whine to get those badges this is a exp. of what people would start demanding
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Werent the Isolator Badge and Easter Egg of sorts? And if so, isn't telling us about the badge during Isolator kind of take the point away....
However having a Badge lesson, and perhaps an accolade and a gladiator lesson would be nice.
Just a thought... if you don't feel reading the long version. ^_^
What are the real-world implications of making Isolator (and potentially event badges) available in a non-limited fashion? Is this something that is going to dry the revenue streams of the Developers? Will it require a work effort that far supercedes the reward offered? Will it cause unhappiness in the general player population, or will it cause widespread joy? Will it increase or decrease the number of rerolls and alts and if so, is this a good or bad thing?
These strike me as the questions we should be asking and debating if the matter is to have any sort of resolution whatsoever within this small corner of the community and yes, I'm quite aware that it's all bloody-well moot anyway. ^_^
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What are the real-world implications of making Isolator (and potentially event badges) available in a non-limited fashion?
<snip>
Will it require a work effort that far supercedes the reward offered?
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It is this one of your questions that I think is the kicker. Other then making it a flashback or exemplar-type mission, all the other options require a fair amount of work.
Remember, if you do Isolator in Outbreak, there is really no danger in failing it, all it takes is time and effort. When you fast-forward your hero to L50 and do the same mission, you have some serious balance problems. If you balance for an uber-wimpy defender, the scrappers and blasters will walk through it with no real effort. If you balance it for the scrapper/tanker, the defender will have to get help to finish it.
Also, at what level do you make the mission available? 50 is out, why punish the people who haven't gotten their toon to 50 yet? You think the outcry over Khelds being limitted to players with a 50 is bad, wait 'till you do something like this. As you lower the level of the mission, you end up with serious balance problems.
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I'm quite aware that it's all bloody-well moot anyway. ^_^
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Not as long as Cuppa keeps asking for us every once in a while
And the long version was nicely put
~Liberty~
The LEGION (CoH) - The Fallen LEGION (CoV)
Forget your fears and want no more
50's - Renkoro, Remorseless
~Virtue~
Angry Angels / Jaded Angels
Global - @Puretone
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....Other then making it a flashback or exemplar-type mission, all the other options require a fair amount of work.
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Which is what I suggested in the OP. Auto-exemp the player to level 1. It would be the easiest to code this way.
And Pamprin, your post was great!
Fusion Force
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However having a Badge lesson, and perhaps an accolade and a gladiator lesson would be nice.
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yes yes I still have no idea HOW to use gladitors or how to even fight in the arena
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Mna_Grok delighted:
It is this one of your questions that I think is the kicker. Other then making it a flashback or exemplar-type mission, all the other options require a fair amount of work.
Remember, if you do Isolator in Outbreak, there is really no danger in failing it, all it takes is time and effort. When you fast-forward your hero to L50 and do the same mission, you have some serious balance problems. If you balance for an uber-wimpy defender, the scrappers and blasters will walk through it with no real effort. If you balance it for the scrapper/tanker, the defender will have to get help to finish it.
Also, at what level do you make the mission available? 50 is out, why punish the people who haven't gotten their toon to 50 yet? You think the outcry over Khelds being limitted to players with a 50 is bad, wait 'till you do something like this. As you lower the level of the mission, you end up with serious balance problems.
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Trust me, I understand. One of the problems with any forum like this, is that you get a lot of backseat game developers. Now, nothing wrong with that, I count myself amongst their number ^_^. The problem, per se, is that with any group of people that profess an interest in something, some are more skilled than others. Conversely, some have less skill. Some have a *lot* less skill.
It's to that end that we see a great many solutions - not just the Isolator badge, but with ED, and whatever else might grasp people's imagination - that are simply overwrought, unworkable, impractical or all three. That is not to say that a potential solution has to embrace these particular undoings, but a good many of the proposals happily do so anyway.
Personally, so far as the Isolator badge is concerned, I say, throw together a quick Portal mission, drop in some contaminated, let the heroes go at it. Objective: arrest one hundred Contaminated. (Sure, you can make it something else, but I'm just going for the basics here. ^_^) Background doesn't have to be any more involved than "Here's a place / alternate dimension / Paragon neighbourhood where the Contaminated got out of hand." Bang! Done. Honestly, I'm not talking out of my backside on this, throwing together a mission of this nature should not be a difficult or time-consuming task.
As for the matter of appropriate level and balance... I think that level 40 is a good level to set the mission, though some may disagree. I think 50 is a bit extreme; but 40 is a good place, because around 40 even the most novice players get at least a bit clued into the deeper mechanics of the game. Someone might disagree with me here... I say, go for it! I'm sure there are some really great thoughts on what constitues an appropriate level setting, and to me, that seems like something much more worthwhile to discuss than, say, who's being the biggest jerk. ^_^
As for setting the mission appropriately in terms of different ATs... well, that strikes me as something of a non-issue. I say that simply because, if there is a problem in the later levels making the Isolator mission two easy for one AT and too difficult for another, then that very same problem is going to express itself in more or less every other high-level mission.I will say thought that whilst it may well be making the entire endevour too easy, there's a certain charm inherent in the idea of making all of the Contaminated enemies remain at level 1. ^_^
Also, you are right about the Kheld situation... but I think that it is possible to add in an Isolator mission without causing the same degree of outcry. Furthermore, perhaps it could be a non-level specific contact that gives the mission? That would certainly help matters; although we begin to move towards a greater degree of effort involved as a result.
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Puretone added:
And the long version was nicely put.
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Aww, thanks. Stops me from thinking I turned into a ramble monster. ^_^
...
Okay peeps, I've got places to be, so if this thread continues to live, I will rejoin it tomorrow. Good evening to all! ^___^
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Emerald_Fusion TYed:
Thank you Pamprin! Excellent!
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You're welcome. ^_^ The point stands too... putting aside some of the other anti-Isolator etc. arguements, nobody here is demanding the earth itself be moved just to make a badge available in an ongoing manner. We are really asking for a very small amount of effort... one that also seems appropriate as a means of reversing a so far quite disliked design decision. (i.e. introducing Isolator knowing full well it would not be available to the older characters generally ill-informed newer players.)
And secondly, even if you already have the Isolator badge, introducing a small Portal mission is giving everyone in Paragon another little slice of content with which to occupy themselves... it's not like this is something exclusive to the badge-hunting crowd we are proposing. In fact, I'm thinking that there's a good chance quite a lot of players are going to get a real kick out of facing off against the Contaminated once again, in much the way that it's fun to revisit the Clockwork King later on in the game. Plus, it retroactively strengthens the backstory of Outbreak. Not a bad return for throwing together a few pre-existing assets, eh?
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Pax_Arcana replied:
Ah, but MMOs differ from thigns like Super Mario in this way: new content is always being added. There's always another event to look forward to (or to be surprised with, like the Valentines Day event kinda did - no advanced fanfare, just "oh by the way - have fun, guys!").
I think that enhances replay value. Sure, your first Hero didn't get isolator, and DID get lots of the Halloween badges. That was then, this is now - your NEXT hero can get Isolator, and won't gtthe Haloween badges. Already, right there, wihtout looking at Origin, Power Sets, choices WRT TFs and the like ... your experience with the game will be different.
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You are quite right there; MMOs are indeed a very different beast. And furthermore, I am only too aware that my own expectations of how a game should work do not gel perfectly with the MMO genre in particular. And you are quite right; it is entirely possible to interpret the creation of two heroes - one 'then', one 'now' - as representing two divergent playing experiences, just by looking at the divide in badges. That is, technically, a different experience second time around; and therefore should incite replay value. ^_^
Now, I'm going to digress a little, but I hope it makes sense. ^_^
Psychologists have spent a fair bit of time looking into the condition of human reasoning, and one of the interesting conclusions some have come to is the idea that most human beings are slave to their unconcious - at least so far as decision making is concerned.
Effectively, a human being will make a decision - driven unconciously, almost on impulse - and then they will begin the process of adding a framework of logic and reason to support their decision, often entirely ignoring rational fact where it cannot be integrated into ideas. Quite simply, people think that they arrive at a conclusion by a process of considered and logical thought; whereas the thruth is, they create their conclusion and then work backwards.
Think of a heated argument you once had with someone; I'm sure the more time you had to think about it, the more reasons you could come up with as to why you were in the right... right?
I said I was going to digress. ^_^
Now, I don't mention this to invalidate your ideas or thoughts on this particular matter. I will say quite clearly - I am human, and I too am subject to this process of conclusion-then-reasoning. What initially started out - in my mind at least - as well-rationed thought became the target of greater introspection. Now, I realise that whilst some of my arguments have merit, they are primarily motivated by two concerns:
1. I am a perfectionist, and in turn a completist. I want to collect all possible badges, for the sake of having all possible badges.
2. I am greatly opposed to the idea of any content, within a game, being made permanently unavailable. (Except, obviously, once the game is 'complete', i.e. everything there is to do, is done - as games are humanly finite. Furthermore, 'finite' is perhaps not the best term to throw around so far as an MMORPG is concerned, but certainly, as I'm sure the clamouring end-game content-crowd will happily tell you - sometimes it is possible to do almost all of everything. ^_^)
I would not blame you if, at this point, you wonder where I'm going with all of this. ^_^
We all have our own unconcious motivations. Mine are above. ^_^ And we have certainly we have talked about the idea that one-shot badges being made readily available once more would create a 'cheapening' effect for those that already own them. (I think your comparison to a coin mint / market situation was quite succint on this point. ^_^) Simply put, to have something in limited supply is a good thing. ^_^ I'm no pop psychologist, but there we have a motivation - that to you, there is a special quality inherent in a limited supply model.
I point this out because I am afraid that if we do not look at our underlying motivations, we are in danger of simply going around in circles. We can be very polite about it, but nothing comes of a discussion (at least I generally find) we are able to understand, *really* understand the opposite side. What I am not afraid of, is to say that I do not understand your side of the discussion. But I do not say that as a critique of your arguments; rather, that my own inability to understand is derived from the mental block that I hold. I am however *willing* to understand; and I would much rather see a proposed solution crafted that addresses the concerns of all (to the best of our ability).
Which is funny, considering how much of this is moot anyway. ^_^
Essentially, what I hope for is more of a directly-logical discussion on the pros and cons of the solutions being thrown about, in terms of some established goals - such as, would such a solution make more players more satisfied with the game, or less? Would such solutions increase the game revenues, or decrease subscription durations? Is it going to ultimately lead to better numbers for Cryptic and a happier population of people can go back and get their character a badge... or if they reroll an alt and get it with them instead?
This, I think, is what really needs to be talked about. ^___^
As I recall, from reading about the badge:log the character in during that month, and get the badge. It's a point of "yeah, I've been playing this character for a loooong time"; a '50 with Celebrant impresses me slightly more than a '50 wihtout that badge. The "With" is obviously an old hand, who's been playing COH for quite a while now.
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Ah, but you see ... I don't have that badge. Never will, either. I wasn't part of COH back then ... I didn't even have a computer that could THINK of running COH at the time, and as for ISP ... lol ... I was still on 56.6 dialup (at best), right up until this past september.
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Hahaha, no, I totally understand! ^_^ I was on 56k too for the longest time, and it was through NetZero too. (I don't know about everyone else, but I found them to be just a terrible, terrible company. Personally I'm (weirdly) for outsourcing in the sense that the world is globalizing anyway - but for pete's sakes, if you are going to move your entire customer service operation to a country that does speak, as a primary language, that of your customers - then make sure your new employees are bloody well fluent before giving them what is primarily a communication-based role!) And after that, I had to switch my machines around... so now I'm running CoH with an Intel onboard video solution. O.o
As so far as the Celebrant badge goes... I was there, and collected it on my three characters. (Did I mention that already? I felt like I did... weird deja vu moment, sorry.) I think it struck me particularly because compared to many of the other event badges, it just didn't seem that 'special', in terms of the requirements needed to acquire it. But I also think this particular line of thinking came about because I saw 'special' as to mean 'requiring a great feat to acquire', whereas I can see now that you use the term more to describe a limited supply situation. ^_^
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But those beads aren't specific to the year in which you went to Mardi gras. And Mardi Gras is every year, not "once and once only".
So a better analogy, IMO, would be ...oh, heck, how about (since I'm Boston born and bred) your tickets to the World Series, proving you were there when the Sox finally won the darned thing again.
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See, I knew if I brought in an analogy, it would be 'amended'. ^_^ Hehe, nah... I realise now that when someone modifies another person's analogy, what they are really saying is "Hey, you see the situation like this... but this is how *I* see it." And I see what you are getting at, too; that Mardi Gras is indeed an annual event, as opposed to - say - the Winter Lord event, which has so far taken place all of once.
I think where we diverge here is that I don't see a "Winter Lord Event", so much as an "Xmas Event". Does that make any sense? That essentially, in my eyes, the Winter Lord is as intrinsic and annual (in Paragon) as Christmas trees and candy canes. Similarly, I was rather surprised that they did not bring back the Winter Lord this year (which adds some credence to your view of you things, so far as they are in line with the Dev team, mayhaps) - but this may have also been driven by the "Winter Lord XP Farming Frenzy Bonanza" incident.
So, to try and turn the discussion a little more along the lines I discussed earlier... To me, at least so far as the Winter Lord is concerned; to never reuse that particular piece of content just seems somewhat inefficient and wasteful. I think we are all quite aware by now that Cryptic has (understandably) limited resources, and the time of the Developers is at a premium; therefore, we do not want to waste their time. This is why some would argue against paying any particular attention to the Isolator badge, purely on time and effort grounds.
At the same time, there is a marvelous giant monster that is currently gathering dust. And certainly, repurposing and reusing content is a great deal more efficient than building it entirely from scratch. Sure, we could chalk this one up to some wayward design (mistakes do happen but still; is the situation worth salvaging? And if so, surely players will want to see a badge attached to such a creature?
At this point, it seems to me that the question is more on of "Should we have Celebrant (1) / Celebrant (2) / Celebrant (3) set of badges?" versus "Should we have a (generic) Celebrant badge?"
As for the baseball analogy... I'm sorry, I really don't know that much about baseball or the World Series! ^_^
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Or, a truly more direct parallel - in the military, being part of a military operation in a specific theater, during a specific span of time, gets you a service ribbon for that place/time/etc. The only folks sporting service ribbons for Desert Storm are the guys who were THERE - even if they were "only" supply clerks sitting a hundred miles or mroe behind the lines. Doesn't matter if you were a 20+ year career soldier, or a wet-behind-the-ears kid fresh from basic training ... if you were playing in that particular sandbox, you get the ribbon for it. They were there, "on the day" if you will, and that's all it takes.
Guys that retired three months before then, or who weren't deployed to Kuwait? No service ribbon. Doesn't matter if they're bloody Generals with more political connections than you could shake a stick at ... no service ribbon. They just weren't there at the time.
That is what event-limited badges are like, IMO.
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Definately getting you now. ^_^ Like you said, once you've missed the bus, you've missed the bloody bus. By way of comparison... I agree, but I feel that if you wait for a while, another bus comes along. ^_^
So I think we see where we are each coming from on this. You espouse a degree of supply-related quality; whereas I believe that (within the practicalities of actually doing the legwork) that it is more important not to limit supply. Now the question becomes, which way is better for the players, the game, and the Developers?
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"Elite" is perhaps a bit strong of a word, but ... I'd say I see a certain value in the very fact that some badges ARE in limited supply.
Perhaps it will help you to understand this, if I point out that in my youth, I was an avid (if horribly naieve and amateur) numismatist. Er, that means "coin collector". I still have a few of my early prizes,too ... hung onto because of their relative scarcity, and/or the interesting historical relevance some have.
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Yeah, 'elite' is definately a bit too strong... but all the way through this post I've struggled to come up with a better term. So far, "supply-related quality" is the best mouthful I've managed to create... all suggestions gratefully welcomed. ^_^
Also, the example of numismatism did help me understand; thank you for raising it.
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For example - I have an extremely poor-condition coin, a copper disk about an inch-and-a-quarter across; it's an 18th century British copper penny. It's been physically abused (not by me, mind), and looks like it was hit in the middle with something - hit quite hard, because there's a sizeable dent (the fanciful side of me wants to say "maybe it was shot by something", heh). All told - it's just a dented disk of dark brown-black copper. The bit that makes it so special?
The date is "1_96", with either a 7 or 9 in the "_" spot; it's so worn down there, it's very difficult to see. I can tell you, though, that it is definitely a "7" there - because the name on the coin ...? George III. Yeah, the very guy the U.S. rebelled against. Kinda neat to have found that coin, here in America, nearly two hundred years later (at the time I found it tucked away in an old box from a flea market, anyway).
Of course, it's "just" a silly bit of copper, worn almost to unrecognisability, badly dented, and bearing the discolering patina of centuries of neglect and abuse.
I also have some paper currency, oneof which I particularly like;it's Austrian, from sometime around 1930 or 1940 - yep, it's worth precisely diddly as money, 'cause it's in Reichsmarks.
All 500,000 of them.
I like it 'cause it's a paper note with a face value of "one half million", PLUS, it has mild historical significance. In reality, of course, it's justone of many tens of thousands of identical piees of equally-devalued paper. (Inflation being what it was, I'd be surprised if that note would have bought more than a half a loaf of bread, at the time. If that much.)
...
But those two things, still consider to be special. There aren't that many objects of their nature in the world, and I - little insignificant unimportant me - happen to have them. That's incredibly cool.
I view "event limited" badges much the same way. It's like collectible coins ... if you mint more, they stop being worth as much. The value comes from their being in limited supply.
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This was extremely helpful. ^_^ There's not much for me to say here, as I will be retreading some of my earlier comments. Suffice to say, I have a much better understanding of your position, and I am thankful that you gave the time and effort to help me understand where you are coming from. ^_^ Also, as a side note, I hear those Reichsmarks used to make the most wonderful kites.
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You misunderstand how I respect someone with, for continued example, "Celebrant". I don't assume they're any good at the game ... but I become cognisant of the fact that they've seen thegame grow and develop for far longer than I have. (Or if you prefer, they have weathered more Nerf-Storms than I have. ^_^)
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Hahaha, yeah! I'm beginning to think they should have a badge for Regenners, "I Live For The Bat". But I understand; that to hold the Celebrant badge is essentially to carry a visible mark of (relative) veteran status. I think the problem in particular for me lies with the fact that one had to actually log in to lay claim to the badge; as has been mentioned, there are those players dating back as far as the beta that do not, for one reason or another, have the badge. In my mind, I would rather have seen the badge awarded to characters automatically via a data-mining operation; or even have it set so that any character from an account with a suitably-veteran creation date receives the badge the moment they log on. Unfortuntately, without thinking about the matter too much, I also suspect both posibilities are on the side of "More effort than it's worth."
Thinking about it, I suspect I have issues with Celebrant in particular more because of the way it was designed, handled and distributed, rather than anything else. And also, thinking about it... the badge actually has a very distinct number '1' as part of it's design. So I think your idea for a Celebrant (1) / Celebrant (2) etc. is very much the manner in which the badge will be awarded in future.
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I'd say this shows something:
You have the badges, and so, they're nothing special to you. Thus, you don't see any risk of a loss of value inherent in everyone having them.
I don't have the badges, and thus see them as something special - thus, I immediately become concerned that allowing "cheap knockoffs" to flood the market would cheapen the badges themselves.
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Hmm... it's definately an interesting idea. ^_^ Truely, I find that once I've picked up a particular badge, my thoughts turn not to how I am going to enjoy said badge, but rather, which badge is next on the list... Having said that, before or after getting the badges, I was unconcerned with any sort of 'cheapening' scenario. If anything, I've always tried to encourage as many people as possible to get the badges; be it by dropping out of a team and giving my spot to someone else for collecting Devilfish; or offering the infamous fortune teller mission to as many people as possible with no concern of monetary reward.
I just enjoy collecting the badges; and in turn I hope to amass the the most complete collection possible, simply for the sakes of having a complete collection. My thoughts as such turn mainly towards helping others do the same, irregardless of whether or not they had the same (time-based) opportunities that I did.
Another interesting point to make, just as I'm thinking about it... When I first started playing CoH, I had a good deal of spare time on my hands. I collected the badges, I had fun with the special events. ^_^ (Although the Halloween and Xmas / Winter Lord events were very difficult, as my two alts were still quite low level as a result of being Isolator-rerolled.) Now, over the last nine months, my time has evaporated to a premium. There have been times when several weeks alone can pass before I log in; I simply don't have the time to do anything else but work myself into an early grave. Sad, but true.
(Thank bloody heavens for things calming down this week, too.)
When Xmas 2005 rolled around, I went and found what information I could about the badges; and then I went at it. One badge for picking up a jetpack; another badge for completing the Heros versus Villains mission. Two badges! Excellent work. Log off.
Except, of course, there were three badges - I'd missed out on Toy Collector, because the information on it was a tad scarce. I only found out about it towards the end of the event, and promptly went to work opening the necessary two hundred presents (which, personally, I thought was something of a silly amount.) It took me just under two hours. And I simply didn't have time to do it with my alts too... so for the first time ever, I missed out on a badge with them.
Now fast-forward to Valentine's Day. I picked up the three badges for my main; and it was fun too, as I was able to do much of the missions alongside a really great villain. ^_^ Even Snaptooth wasn't too bad, as - after being horrified and beaten down by his super-hard third incarnation - I discovered I could keep him knocked down most of the time by throwing Air Superiority into the mix.
My alts?
Didn't even log in with them.
I mean, what was the point? I'm sure there are plenty of forumgoers at this point that think I'm being melodramatic and childish; they may even tell me so. And quite frankly, they may well be right; the idea of having "everything or nothing" is something that popped up in my childhood. (Not, coincidentally, in a Varuca Salt-esque setting.)
But the remaining fact is, as I stated earlier - I am a completist. I am a perfectionist. And to me, missing one badge - just one - is tantamount to failure. It is disheartening, and demoralizing. I want to know that if I play well, and take it slowly, then I can make it through to the end of the game with what amounts to a 100% record - but on two characters now, that is not - and never can be - possible.
So I could have been playing on for a couple of extra hours with my alts, just getting them the Valentine's badges. But I didn't. It no longer appealed to me. So instead, for the first time in a long time, I got back to levelling my main, and getting a little bit closer to the end of the game. I could have been busy entertaining myself with a well-crafted timesink... but not anymore.
Like I said, it's just a tad melodramatic, and bit childish. But I think the question here is not so much "Wow, what on earth is wrong with this person?" so much as "Just what percentage of population does this person actively represent?"
Therein lies to me the answer as to whether or not badges should be retroactively available.
Would it help, or hinder?
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Kungas displayed great understanding:
As for the latter, as a sometimes substitute teacher, you have my sympathy. But compared to the obviously HUGE amount of feeling the obsessive collectors are holding on this issue . . . it just doesn't justify denying them.
I don't understand why Isolator is so important - or why any badge without a power attached is so important. But the people who care most about badges, and there are a lot of them, want this.
Just let them have it.
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I don't think there is anything I can add other than, bravo. Not for agreeing with the aims of the pro-Isolator crowd... but for coming into a charged environment, keeping a clear head, and showing sympathy and pragmatic support to a group that otherwise do not conform to your worldview. em/ applaud. ^_^
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The_PMD answered:
It's honestly the attitude I hear from most of the people in this thread. "I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT!"
There's no other real reason why the devs should put this in. Some people think they are entitled to ALL the content in the game, and think they're being ripped off if they don't have access to it all. I disagree with you that this is a reasonable position. I think it's very unreasonable and unrealistic. This is an MMO...the devs are attempting to give us an ever-changing ever-expanding world to play in. As such, there is NO WAY that all the content would or should be available to every single toon. Toon and player are different. Isolator is available to every PLAYER: go roll an alt and get it. But to expect any one toon to get all the content is unreasonable. The devs are all but telling us this, and it's central to their concept of the game. Look at the evidence: They have limited edition badges. There are a wide variety of Archetypes. The character creation is the best part of the game. There is virtually no post-50 content. What does it add up to? THE DEVS WANT YOU TO ROLL ALTS! They don't want you to be able to do every bit of content with one character. The game is set up so that you experience all the content across MANY characters.
Giving Isolator to pre-i2 toons isn't going to happen unless the Devs fundamentally change their ideas about how this game is to be played and enjoyed.
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Hmm... I still think that 'Varuca Salt' is a bit harsh. She was the greediest of the greedy; a child spoiled rotten to the core. And I'm certainly not looking to stir the pot, but it seems to me that the louder, more brash responses had, so far, come from the anti-Isolator side of things. (Although to be fair, I am biased; also, it seems that in this respect, things have evened recently or even gone completely the other way with some more... 'impassioned' persons throwing their hat into the ring.)
Now, you raise some interesting points, and I don't think I am going to be able to answer all of them in this post. But I do look forward to talking about it a little bit more in future. Suffice to say, I think you are right that the Developers want to push forward altoholicism; after all, that was the very reasoning behind the creation of the Kheldians and whatever other epic archtypes may be coming down the pipeline.
Let's just say, I agree in principle to the idea that not every character is going to be able to enjoy every piece of content. That makes sense to me... I think the problem I have is that I do not agree with where the lines are being drawn that divide one player's experience from another. To expand on this...
To begin with, every player cannot experience all of the content. When you first roll a character, you must pick an origin; and that origin determines the first (five?) levels of content that you experience. There is no way, at present nor I doubt in future, to change your origin and enjoy a different... 'path' of origin-based content. And this is just the start; the Devs have been talking for some time about introducing far more origin-based material outside of that first introductory experience.
Heck, now players even get origin-based temporary powers to set out with! I never got that when I started. ^_^
However, and here is an important difference, I feel: we do not mind this so much; because there are no long-lasting implications of that early content. Irrespective of being a Technology Blaster or Magic Controller or a Natural Scrapper; one will still be able to enjoy the same task forces, collect the same badges...
To put it another way - despite this 'seperation of content', everyone is still in the same boat. This is something (as seen in my choice of formatting!) that I think needs to be strongly emphasized. I don't mind that you got to do missions only a Science hero gets to do; you know what? I've got some Mutant missions, and *you* don't get to do those.
There are no Haves and Have-Nots; just a Swastika-esque situation where all paths, though different, ultimately lead to the same destination.
I would *love* to see more path-dependant content. I would love to see more origin-specific missions, more AT-specific objectives... to me, that seems like a really great reason to go back, roll a new character and enjoy everything the game has to offer from a totally new perspective! Some elements of this approach are already to be seen in the Kheldian AT.
But this not the case with, to my mind, the current badge situation. What we have here is a problem whereby an activity - that I am almost *sure* is designed to take advantage of a certain anal-retentive (here's hoping the censor didn't just eat that) mindset - actively works against the very people it is aimed at. And it seems like a very small degree of effort need be expended to resolve this problem.
What I see - again, coloured by own experiences - is a problem where, at present, there is a group of first-class heroes, and a group of second-class heroes. And for an utterly arbitrary reason - the creation date - one group of heroes may NEVER attain something the other group has. You want to set it up so that the game provides replay value by presenting multiple content paths? Go for it! You want to give the game replay value by haphazardly and actively introducting uneccesary divides into the player population? Hmm... I can't say that seems like the best way of promoting a reroll-replay approach to me.
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Excellent Post if I may say so myself. I couldn't have said it any better thank you!
But I can say this, I have talked with many in game and read quite a few posts in this thread saying that no one is to experience all of the content and to ask for that is unreasonable.
Well I have to say this, if this was the intent of the developers of this game then why did they introduce "exemplaring"
Easy, to allow players to go back and lower themselves to play with other friends and heroes to experience the content they couldn't before exemplaring was introduced.
With exemplaring this allowed you to go back and complete certain TFs you missed, Trials..ect..ect.. all in which offered a badge for you to award yourself with once you have completed it.
So with all due respect the devs never said you can not experience all of the content in this game with one specific hero. And to tell your player base this as a company would basically in so many words be telling your player base we want more of your money for making new alts.
If I recall the devs did say there is a lot of content in this game and it is possible to miss certain things and that is to be expected, but they never said you can not experience it all. Thus exemplaring was made available
I too am a completist and I feel the same as many avid badge collectors, I have completed "everything" in this game except for the isolator and I would like the chance to get this badge to complete my hero.
I have every contact completed, I have every souvenir, I have had all the temp powers, the only thing I am missing is this one badge. Why? because I did not know this badge was even going to exist when I was in the tutorial. When badges were implemented, no dev or red name ever made a post saying that this one badge in all of CoH gaming history would only be given in the tutorial, and never in the actual game itself other then Outbreak.
If this would have been mentioned I would be right there saying no leave the badge where it is, but it wasn't and many heroes have done the exact same thing as I have. When the badges were introduced we were excited and kept collecting badges, completing badges..ect..ect..
Anyway, it would be nice to get this badge to complete my hero. If not then thats something myself and many other badge collectors will have to deal with. But I see no harm in bringing this badge to the many who missed it.
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
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So with all due respect the devs never said you can not experience all of the content in this game with one specific hero. And to tell your player base this as a company would basically in so many words be telling your player base we want more of your money for making new alts.
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With all due respect, I remember reading the post by one of the Devs where they said that.
One character is not supposed to experience all fo the content.
Perhaps someone with better Search-fu than me can find the quote, but I haven't.
To follow up - When heroes and villains cross-over to the other side, it has been stated that if when they cross, they will not start over from level 1. If you cross at a certain level, you will start with access to the contacts at that level. You will not have the opportunity to experience the content of a lower level in the same way that a person who is level 1 will be able to experience it.
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Right there with ya. I'd rather see the Flashback system for going back and getting stuff you missed. That would make it MUCH more interesting... that right there would hopefully settle this entire arguement.
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As an aside: I PM'd Statesman at one point to try and settle a dispute over the Flashback system. Per his response, it is "semi-right" that the Flashback system has been scrapped by the developers. So take that to mean what it means.