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HAHA! These guys want to make it a click debuff? Oh, my god I have seen everything.
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I thought I had. This really puts it on a whole new level.
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
Here I was... sooo in love with _Castle_. I even went and looked up Cryptic's street address so I could send him German beer for Valentine's Day.
And now he has to go and ruin it by posting here and causing a flood of replies that just drug the Defender forum IQ down into the two digit range.
That said, I'm all for Hurricane being a click. You can mez me, but you still can't touch me. Pure genius.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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If they nerfed Huricane, it would a direct response to something from PvP, which they've said previously that they won't do.
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Actually, the original quote was something along the lines or "we'll try not to."
Melee and Range are differentiated in terms of damage, and attack type, but the statements above that there is no 'melee range' is accurate.
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Given the nerfing that was given to Regen with IH and MoG along with Phase Shift and Kheldian's Quantum Flight, these were certainly PvP nerfs. I fully expect you to nerf hurricane which is needed. Also fix the toggle droppers. Hurricane and things like that should be made Clickies like IH was with long recharge times(to be fair). I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate.
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Oh look, someone with nothing but melee ATs whining about Hurricane. Sorry, but you dont get an "I win" button against everyone in the game.
If you cant beat Hurricane, your tactics, team composition and abilty to adapt suck. There are many, many ways to beat Hurricane.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
If they nerfed Huricane, it would a direct response to something from PvP, which they've said previously that they won't do.
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Given the nerfing that was given to Regen with IH and MoG along with Phase Shift and Kheldian's Quantum Flight, these were certainly PvP nerfs. I fully expect you to nerf hurricane which is needed. Also fix the toggle droppers. Hurricane and things like that should be made Clickies like IH was with long recharge times(to be fair). I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate.
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Okay, you're wrong on something. None of those things were PVP nerfs. (Well, QF might have been, I don't know anything about that power)
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Sure they were. I NEVER used MoG before Arena showed up on the test server. And coincidentally enough I only used it because of Controller's Hurricane and people who had Whirlwind or bubbles. It was the the only way I could actually touch the person with Hurricane. Then they turned it into a long recharge because people could make it perma MoG with enough increase attack rates in there. With it's bonus defense powers and the ability to get past people with those people who were untouchable by those who had zero range attacks, it became the power to have. So, they nerfed it so it wasn't perma and had a long recharge time. IH they nerfed for the sorta same reason. Because a regen scrapper was close to unbeatable if he slotted correctly with IH and INT in combat. They nerfed IH and Int over and over again to make a Regen scrapper a not so regen scrapper. They finally turned Regen into a click all AT(except Int which was turned into a click at one point as well, then given heals(which was dumb).
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IH and MoG were nerfed because regen scrappers were SOLOING +3 MONSTERS.
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Not really. I always died against monsters by myself. Need a team. And sitting there forever at level 50 attacking monsters over and over by myself for an extended amount of time and getting nothing wasn't really worth the time wasted.
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Phase shift was nerfed because it was being used for herding.
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You couldn't really herd with Phase Shift. You couldn't activate Taunt or anything while it was on and Phase Shift the mobs noticed you and would go after you, but they would lose interest quickly, especially if someone else attacked them. I'd lose interest too if someone was jumping up and down going "Nyah nyah, you can't touch me!" and I couldn't harm them and they couldn't hurt me, and go after the one who was actually hurting me.
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Both were done for PvE reasons. The devs said it, and the vast majority of player comments -I- saw agreed with the reasoning behind it. (although there was still much debate on whether it was nessecary or not) As for nerfing Hurricane, I don't see any real PVE reason for it. Storm Defenders have their share of challenges as it is. PVP-wise, it's like someone said. There are ways to get around it, you just have to be creative about it.
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Devs said a lot of things that aren't necessarily true. Two words come to mind.. "Small tweak" Enough said there. I think the majority of the players agreed it was a PvP change. I mean... There were thousands of posts with people complaining about it that got ignored.
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Hurricane by itself isn't an "I Win" power by ANY stretch of the imagination. You just have to use your imagination to come up with ways your character can overcome it.
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Please dwell on this more. How would say a */Regen, */DA, or a */SR scrapper be able to overcome it?
I know Blasters can, if they try. What about Stalkers? All but Energy Armor will have a hard to to overcome this problem.
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Team with people who can buff you to overcome Hurricane's effect or take out the stormy for you. Or if you're Spines or Claws use your ranged attacks. You could even *gasp* slot range in them. Joust into the hurricane and mez them, used ranged temp power attacks.
Christ on popsicle stick people. Do I need to carve "PvP is not balanced for one on one encounters and never will be" into people's monitors before this starts to get through?
As someone once said in a thread about Hurricane in the PvP forum, Hurricane isnt overpowered, the brains of those who want it nerfed are underpowered.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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They wouldn't nerf defenders. We're the most balanced AT, after all.
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I can't hear you over the six slots I had to put into pet gaze. What was that again?
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Oh, well, we're balanced but we're not allowed to have anything resembling a good control powers.
Controlling is for controllers while...er...well, something or other is for defenders, but I'm not quite sure what it is.
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Anything that no other AT does well is okay for defenders.
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As someone once said in a thread about Hurricane in the PvP forum, Hurricane isnt overpowered, the brains of those who want it nerfed are underpowered.
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qft
-- War
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I dont think this can happen because of defenders. For Controllers, you take away hurricane and they still have all their tools from their primary to defend them. Take it away from defenders and...storm defenders get squished like all other defenders. Its literally their best and only defense.
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Unfortunately this is enough to make many melees hate us and want it nerfed. the whole "I looked at that defender and he didn't die, please nerf him" craze. Granted anyone with a mezz can beat a storm defender, anyone with range can overcome hurricane and if a melee has buffs from their teamates (or learns to jump with a toggle dropping attack) they can overcome hurricane. So how is it overpowerful again?
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I only ever made arguments resembling this to make a point about some of the arguments used in reference to melee ATs. I have no real interest in nerfing storm.
I mention this because I have made such arguments, and I feel they were as defensible as the "toggle-dropping is necessary to fight melee ever" arguments. That is to say, "not at all."
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Actually, there's one thing Defenders do really well. Profit from dead teammates. We do more damage with Fallout than Controllers, get better benefits from Vengeance and get a Vigilance discount.
They should rename the AT Gravediggers.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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Given the nerfing that was given to Regen with IH and MoG along with Phase Shift and Kheldian's Quantum Flight, these were certainly PvP nerfs. I fully expect you to nerf hurricane which is needed. Also fix the toggle droppers. Hurricane and things like that should be made Clickies like IH was with long recharge times(to be fair). I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate.
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Stalkers are very binary. They're either killing someone or they are dying.
However, they're one of the few (the only?) AT in the game that can essentially be "good" in PvP with only 2 powers. I'm not sure that's fair. A lot of people need to carefully consider their whole build to be strong at PvP, but stalkers get by pretty well with just 2 powers.
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Wrong.
They all have Hide. Since Hide is the basis of their offense and defense, it's one.
They all get Assassin Strike, because it benefits the most from Hide. This is two.
They all get Placate, because it gives the chance for a second critical or an escape.
They get other attacks so that when they don't one-shot someone, they can chain more attacks to finish them off.
They get defenses so that they a) can survive combat and b) aren't easily knocked out of Hide when they're spotted. Every secondary has multiple powers for this.
Some get Stealth for stacking to be more difficult to spot.
They need a travel power to get around.
Saying they only need two powers to function in PVP is not even wrong.
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When will people figure out all U have to do is turn on SS+Build Up abd just run right past the stormie witha power qued that will mez him...? Just throwing things out there 
. Plus, I like the challenge that stormies give me.
The Only Token Black Guy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Murdok
Your mom's real name is Castle.
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IH and MoG were nerfed because regen scrappers were SOLOING +3 MONSTERS.
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I would love to see someone with MoG solo a +3 Monster... if there are any..
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This must've happened in issue 2.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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If they nerfed Huricane, it would a direct response to something from PvP, which they've said previously that they won't do.
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Actually, the original quote was something along the lines or "we'll try not to."
Melee and Range are differentiated in terms of damage, and attack type, but the statements above that there is no 'melee range' is accurate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Given the nerfing that was given to Regen with IH and MoG along with Phase Shift and Kheldian's Quantum Flight, these were certainly PvP nerfs. I fully expect you to nerf hurricane which is needed. Also fix the toggle droppers. Hurricane and things like that should be made Clickies like IH was with long recharge times(to be fair). I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate.
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As a toggle, there are various powers that would stop it. As a clickie, none, really. And one biiiig difference between IH and Hurricane. There are plenty of buffs/armors/etc, that are either clicks, or toggles. There are NO PBAoEs with a duration. Hurricane does generate agro, and is not a drop. Changing it to a clickie would make it unique, and I don't think in a good way. And I don't have /storm/ and I am saying this.
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To be fair, all the perma untouchable powers should be made clickies. Many melee ATs don't have ranged powers and they can't get passed the shields. Of course I think this all should ONLY apply in PvP zones and not in PvE. You'll have those that complain that the powers are working differently in different zones and they shouldn't, but.. Considering I can drop from a level 50 to a level 40 by entering a PvP zone I think it's kinda a bad argument. There's something to be said when you're on a team in a PvE zone and you're helping keep the the same toon alive who's complaining about that same power that kicks their [censored] in PvP. There isn't balance unless everyone can beat each other in PvP. I mean... A person who chooses to make an Empathy Defender with all assist other powers should be able to heal me to death when going against me in a PvP zone, right? :-b
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IH and MoG were nerfed because regen scrappers were SOLOING +3 MONSTERS.
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I would love to see someone with MoG solo a +3 Monster... if there are any..
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You can lose the smirk. The myriad changes to MoG and IH -started- before the revised "giant monster" system. After that, continued nerfs occured because Regen scrappers were effectively tanking on invincible, and were distincitvely more effective at PvP then other builds. Each nerf was a little more questionable then the ones prior to it, because each time Regen was a little less absurd, but back when it all started, a solid regen build was pretty much unkillable.
The point of the whole affair being, they were changed because they were unbalanced in PvE, and most of us saw it coming way in advance, and nobody ever made any serious, rational claim that it was due to PvP concerns. To claim otherwise is a serious proferrence of misinformation.
Jason Heavensrun
Swift : Freedom Server
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/CheckmateStudios
Check out my first Architect Arc, "Bring Up the Sun", arc #339507, and let me know what you think!
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[Given the nerfing that was given to Regen with IH and MoG along with Phase Shift and Kheldian's Quantum Flight, these were certainly PvP nerfs. I fully expect you to nerf hurricane which is needed. Also fix the toggle droppers. Hurricane and things like that should be made Clickies like IH was with long recharge times(to be fair). I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate.
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Ummm ...
Hurricane's not an "Oh crap!" power like most of the ones you listed. It's a debuff -- a standard part of the defense a stormie gives her team.
If you go through the big toggle dropping powers defenders have, most of 'em are KB and repel powers, which as many people have pointed out, are largely resisted by the folks they're supposed to be used on. The toggle drop aspect was added to these powers because they're supposed to be bad news to melee-based mobs and toons. If the KB and repel aspects are entirely nullified, then these powers won't be functioning as intended.
But thank you for nerf-herding ... while trying to prop up your own hobbyhorse 
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Noooo, what are you doing? Let them make it a click. A click that can't be detoggled by mez or de-toggle attacks. Let the idiots suggest that and watch in horror at how truly powerfull a storm defender can be. It would be rediculous but hey, they asked for it. Think if the Ill/Storm controllers. You wouldn't be able to drop Hurrican and their Illusionary pets could continue to pound on you even while they are slept, held, disoriented, de-toggled or whatever and they are invisible.
HAHA! These guys want to make it a click debuff? Oh, my god I have seen everything.
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A click debuff with a recharge time of like 8-9 minutes after being on for 2 minutes just like IH. Sounds good to me. Bring it on! I live with IH like that where I'm uber for 2 minutes then not uber for 8-9 minutes. But in my time being uber, I can still be killed. So the hurricane person can push me away for 2 minutes then run away from me for 8-9 minutes. Sorta like I don't waste my time with them when they have it on since I can't touch them. It's all good. Really. I like the idea of chase me and I now I can chase you.
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If they nerfed Huricane, it would a direct response to something from PvP, which they've said previously that they won't do.
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Actually, the original quote was something along the lines or "we'll try not to."
Melee and Range are differentiated in terms of damage, and attack type, but the statements above that there is no 'melee range' is accurate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Given the nerfing that was given to Regen with IH and MoG along with Phase Shift and Kheldian's Quantum Flight, these were certainly PvP nerfs. I fully expect you to nerf hurricane which is needed. Also fix the toggle droppers. Hurricane and things like that should be made Clickies like IH was with long recharge times(to be fair). I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh look, someone with nothing but melee ATs whining about Hurricane. Sorry, but you dont get an "I win" button against everyone in the game.
If you cant beat Hurricane, your tactics, team composition and abilty to adapt suck. There are many, many ways to beat Hurricane.
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I have a Blaster and a Kheldian too. Not all melee. There are ways to beat Melee if they have Perma Mog too, so let's put that on the table and you can keep your perma Hurricane all you want.
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Hurricane by itself isn't an "I Win" power by ANY stretch of the imagination. You just have to use your imagination to come up with ways your character can overcome it.
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Please dwell on this more. How would say a */Regen, */DA, or a */SR scrapper be able to overcome it?
I know Blasters can, if they try. What about Stalkers? All but Energy Armor will have a hard to to overcome this problem.
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/Regen, Stalker and Scrapper alike: Get acrobatics. Team with someone who has the right use-on-ally powers. Use MoG.
/DA Scrapper: Get acrobatics. Team with someone who has the right use-on-ally powers. Turn on Oppressive Gloom and try to (super)jump so that you land right next to the Hurricane-user, and hope for the best.
/SR, Stalker and Scrapper alike: Get acrobatics. Team with someone who has the right use-on-ally powers. Use Practised Bralwer.
/Nin Stalkers: as /SR, except it's Kuji-in-Rin instead of Practised Brawler.
... you were saying?
And no, none ofthe above is perfect - nor SHOULD it be. But they certainly make Hurricane a non-assured-and-guaranteed "easy button".
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You can lose the smirk. The myriad changes to MoG and IH -started- before the revised "giant monster" system. After that, continued nerfs occured because Regen scrappers were effectively tanking on invincible, and were distincitvely more effective at PvP then other builds. Each nerf was a little more questionable then the ones prior to it, because each time Regen was a little less absurd, but back when it all started, a solid regen build was pretty much unkillable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which of course justifies making hyperbolic complains about what they were capable of in, say, issue 5.
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Hurricane by itself isn't an "I Win" power by ANY stretch of the imagination. You just have to use your imagination to come up with ways your character can overcome it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please dwell on this more. How would say a */Regen, */DA, or a */SR scrapper be able to overcome it?
I know Blasters can, if they try. What about Stalkers? All but Energy Armor will have a hard to to overcome this problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
/Regen, Stalker and Scrapper alike: Get acrobatics. Team with someone who has the right use-on-ally powers. Use MoG.
/DA Scrapper: Get acrobatics. Team with someone who has the right use-on-ally powers. Turn on Oppressive Gloom and try to (super)jump so that you land right next to the Hurricane-user, and hope for the best.
/SR, Stalker and Scrapper alike: Get acrobatics. Team with someone who has the right use-on-ally powers. Use Practised Bralwer.
/Nin Stalkers: as /SR, except it's Kuji-in-Rin instead of Practised Brawler.
... you were saying?
And no, none ofthe above is perfect - nor SHOULD it be. But they certainly make Hurricane a non-assured-and-guaranteed "easy button".
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Acrobatics does not provide repel resistance.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
True, but Acrobatics does provide Knockback resistance, and as long as you're on your feet, you can activate OTHER powers. ^_^ Like MoG, or other -Repel defense powers.
(edit for spelling)
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Ture, but Acrobatics does provide Knockback resistance, and as long as you're on your feet, you can activate OTHER powers. ^_^ Like MoG, or other -Repel defense powers.
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MoG, Unyielding, Entropy Shield.
Any others?
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Acrobatics only helps agains knockback, NOT repel (the effect, not the power from kin).
Repel is found in ... hmmm ... force bubble, hurricane, and telekinesis.
Edit -- beat to the punch!
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Christ on popsicle stick people. Do I need to carve "PvP is not balanced for one on one encounters and never will be" into people's monitors before this starts to get through?
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Hurricane's problem in PvP is precisely that. On a team with multiple people running hurricane + Kinetics + stacked clear minds, it is extremely difficult to stop without having multiple spine scrappers take them out.
Nobody else can really put the damage output needed to stop them when teams are involved.
So no, the lone stormy sitting there with his finger up his nose isn't a problem for much of anyone.
If heroes are able to crossover and villains get blasters, then stormies will not be as big of a deal. But right now there is a select handful of villain builds that can work together to stop them. The mass amounts of other villain builds have no chance against teams stacked with trollers/fenders/blappers.
I believe either Rooted or Granite Armor allows you to ignore repel. Not really sure which.
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[Given the nerfing that was given to Regen with IH and MoG along with Phase Shift and Kheldian's Quantum Flight, these were certainly PvP nerfs. I fully expect you to nerf hurricane which is needed. Also fix the toggle droppers. Hurricane and things like that should be made Clickies like IH was with long recharge times(to be fair). I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ummm ...
Hurricane's not an "Oh crap!" power like most of the ones you listed. It's a debuff -- a standard part of the defense a stormie gives her team.
If you go through the big toggle dropping powers defenders have, most of 'em are KB and repel powers, which as many people have pointed out, are largely resisted by the folks they're supposed to be used on. The toggle drop aspect was added to these powers because they're supposed to be bad news to melee-based mobs and toons. If the KB and repel aspects are entirely nullified, then these powers won't be functioning as intended.
But thank you for nerf-herding ... while trying to prop up your own hobbyhorse
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Noooo, what are you doing? Let them make it a click. A click that can't be detoggled by mez or de-toggle attacks. Let the idiots suggest that and watch in horror at how truly powerfull a storm defender can be. It would be rediculous but hey, they asked for it. Think if the Ill/Storm controllers. You wouldn't be able to drop Hurrican and their Illusionary pets could continue to pound on you even while they are slept, held, disoriented, de-toggled or whatever and they are invisible.
HAHA! These guys want to make it a click debuff? Oh, my god I have seen everything.