A properly buffed Hurricane-using Controller can incapacitate an entire team... especially in a base with lots of nooks and crannies. I've seen it done. Not even Tanks have that kind of power in PvP.
The whole "get a team" argument is nonsense when the Stormy has one too. Especially it it's a team that's buffing the crap out of him/her.
***Before I get rammed for wanting Hurricane nerfed, I'll add this disclaimer: I don't. However, some of you like to downplay the effectiveness of this power. It is an extremely effective and downright insane power when placed in the right hands and backed by the right buffs. If you're going to make comments like "Well get a team!!!," you have to recognize that the Stormies are in teams as well. Ironically enough, this is where the power becomes unbalanced, IMO.
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A properly buffed Hurricane-using Controller can incapacitate an entire team... especially in a base with lots of nooks and crannies. I've seen it done. Not even Tanks have that kind of power in PvP.
The whole "get a team" argument is nonsense when the Stormy has one too. Especially it it's a team that's buffing the crap out of him/her.
***Before I get rammed for wanting Hurricane nerfed, I'll add this disclaimer: I don't. However, some of you like to downplay the effectiveness of this power. It is an extremely effective and downright insane power when placed in the right hands and backed by the right buffs. If you're going to make comments like "Well get a team!!!," you have to recognize that the Stormies are in teams as well. Ironically enough, this is where the power becomes unbalanced, IMO.
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Consider that you also need "the right team" if you want "the right buffs". Consider also, that the primary offender with Storm Summoning in PvP is not a Defender, but a Controller. In a randomly thrown together pickup team in PvP, my Storm Defender is not any more effective than anyone else barring rock/paper/scissors scenarios.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
That's why I said Controller. I don't think anyone really complains about Defenders nearly as much.
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That's why I said Controller. I don't think anyone really complains about Defenders nearly as much.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yet as I pointed out before, if the complaint is about Controllers with Hurricane, then the complaining belongs in the Controller or the PvP forums, not here in the Defender forum.
The Ice/Storm guy is a prime example of missing the point with his "I usually run arctic air instead..." Well guess what?? Defenders don't have that. Defenders don't toss out tons of Hold powers, or out of the box perma -Fly/Immob/Slow powers. Defenders don't put that imob on you and start doing triple damage (which I might add is 50% more than Blaster damage base).
No, Defenders have a little better than half a Blasters damage along with short control durations for Defender Primary Powers and low magnitudes on the few Holds they do get.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
[ QUOTE ]
Yet as I pointed out before, if the complaint is about Controllers with Hurricane, then the complaining belongs in the Controller or the PvP forums, not here in the Defender forum.
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I agree, yet I'm not the one that started the thread here. Actually, I wouldn't start a thread like this at all, in any forum heh.
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Interesting. You have 10 players, none of which had ranged attacks, none of which bothered to pick up Stun Grenades. And, of course, this shows you had a balanced team. After all, some of them had Spines, some had pink pom-poms.
When did you use Phase Shift? Did you try teleport Foeing them into enemies - perferably ones with a mez or strong damage attack (Tsoo Swift Steels are FUNNNNN)?
No, you and ten stalkers decided to try running into a brick wall, and when it didn't work, you decided to call nerfs.
Very nice.
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Wow, must have been ten of the most incompentent PvP players around if they couldnt take out one Storm. If it really happened, which I doubt. He's probably just making crap up, since he doesnt have anything of real substance to back up his claims.
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[ QUOTE ]
Personally?
I doubt it. They leave Defender powers alone, unless we either prove (with much nashing of teeth) that they're not working right or when a power lets Defenders get close or near to the power of a Controller (see Dark Miasma, i5) or Blaster (see En Field). The only fixes to Hurricane I can see would be to fix that damned bug with -range debuffs.
I'd just expect players to end up getting easier access to tohit buffs and repel protection.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahem... :::koff::: they did not leave Dark Defenders alone and have made several changes to them over the issues... and not all were for the better 
... :::koff:::
I am Airman America... Super Hero... and I approve this message!
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Wrong.. Cause obviously you read things I posted and construe your own version of them which is nothing that I said. You don't want to be nerfed because you like having a power that is over powered and are happy playing it. As I've said before, MoG was overpowered, BUT had the ability to be beaten with a team, insperations, "the right powers", etc etc. Same things people have "suggested" to me about overcoming hurricane. Yesterday there were about 10 of us in SC in a circle around a Hurricane person trying to take them out. Eventually they fell, like what would happen with MoG if they "had the right team". 10 people shouldn't be needed to take out any one AT and especially ONE power. That's the problem. Call me what you want, I understand you like you're toon unnerfed, who doesn't. But Hurricane needs to be "fixed". Much love... Me.
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Wow. That had nothing to do with the post you quoted.
You know, I think you're right. Thinking about it, people with hover have an unfair advantage, too. When they're using hover, my meleers can't get anywher near them. I mean, sure I could respec and take hover, or superjump, but hover sucks because I don't like it for some arbitrary reason! I shouldn't have to change my build to counter someone else's power!
Do you realize how absurd your arguments are? How weak your rationale is? Are you concious of this fact? Are you, in fact, lying and exaggerating to justify your continued argument? I begin to suspect you are. Because there is no acknowledgement of reality in your words.
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We'll see how weak my rationale is if the devs nerf hurricane. Then I guess it will be my fault that it happened.. Sure. Ok. Given the fact one of your own started this thread and was like "Nerf On the Horizon?" about Hurricane I think that clearly shows there are more then me aware or complaining about it being overpowered and it may be next to be nerfed whether you like it or not. If it's nerfed, go scream at devs and use your rationale to them and see if they listen or not. Make sure they lie first before you accuse them of lying like you're doing with me. Given their track record, I'm sure they'll fumble up something they say in regards to a nerf like they've done in the past. I'll save my responses from now on to the whiners who don't like change, but at LEAST can respond maturely. Peash.
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Given the nerfing that was given to Regen with IH and MoG along with Phase Shift and Kheldian's Quantum Flight, these were certainly PvP nerfs. I fully expect you to nerf hurricane which is needed. Also fix the toggle droppers. Hurricane and things like that should be made Clickies like IH was with long recharge times(to be fair). I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate.
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Stalkers are very binary. They're either killing someone or they are dying.
However, they're one of the few (the only?) AT in the game that can essentially be "good" in PvP with only 2 powers. I'm not sure that's fair. A lot of people need to carefully consider their whole build to be strong at PvP, but stalkers get by pretty well with just 2 powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've never read a post that was 100% wrong.
Until now.
If you think Stalkers get by in PvP with only two powers then you have a lot to learn.
You wouldn't know that reading some of the Stalker posts around here.
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Given the nerfing that was given to Regen with IH and MoG along with Phase Shift and Kheldian's Quantum Flight, these were certainly PvP nerfs. I fully expect you to nerf hurricane which is needed. Also fix the toggle droppers. Hurricane and things like that should be made Clickies like IH was with long recharge times(to be fair). I'd leave Stalker's Hide alone though. They are pretty weak without Hide and since you can buy IR goggles in a zone if your side is doing well along with all the leadership powers tossed on, this should be adequate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Stalkers are very binary. They're either killing someone or they are dying.
However, they're one of the few (the only?) AT in the game that can essentially be "good" in PvP with only 2 powers. I'm not sure that's fair. A lot of people need to carefully consider their whole build to be strong at PvP, but stalkers get by pretty well with just 2 powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've never read a post that was 100% wrong.
Until now.
If you think Stalkers get by in PvP with only two powers then you have a lot to learn.
[/ QUOTE ]
*nod* You're right. It's 4 powers actually: Hide, Stealth, Build Up, and Assassin Strike.
Those 4 powers have gotten me several thousand kills in PvP on my Stalker.
[ QUOTE ]
We'll see how weak my rationale is if the devs nerf hurricane. Then I guess it will be my fault that it happened.. Sure. Ok. Given the fact one of your own started this thread and was like "Nerf On the Horizon?" about Hurricane I think that clearly shows there are more then me aware or complaining about it being overpowered and it may be next to be nerfed whether you like it or not. If it's nerfed, go scream at devs and use your rationale to them and see if they listen or not. Make sure they lie first before you accuse them of lying like you're doing with me. Given their track record, I'm sure they'll fumble up something they say in regards to a nerf like they've done in the past. I'll save my responses from now on to the whiners who don't like change, but at LEAST can respond maturely. Peash.
[/ QUOTE ]
If Hurricane gets nerfed - and it could happen - you can rest assured that it's not because you can't fight a stormer in PVP.
Also, I'd really like to see how it works in Recluse's Victory before demanding such a necessity.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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We'll see how weak my rationale is if the devs nerf hurricane. Then I guess it will be my fault that it happened.. Sure. Ok. Given the fact one of your own started this thread and was like "Nerf On the Horizon?" about Hurricane I think that clearly shows there are more then me aware or complaining about it being overpowered and it may be next to be nerfed whether you like it or not. If it's nerfed, go scream at devs and use your rationale to them and see if they listen or not. Make sure they lie first before you accuse them of lying like you're doing with me. Given their track record, I'm sure they'll fumble up something they say in regards to a nerf like they've done in the past. I'll save my responses from now on to the whiners who don't like change, but at LEAST can respond maturely. Peash.
[/ QUOTE ]
If Hurricane gets nerfed - and it could happen - you can rest assured that it's not because you can't fight a stormer in PVP.
Also, I'd really like to see how it works in Recluse's Victory before demanding such a necessity.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then what would the reason be to nerf it?
I can't wait for Recluse's Victory. Siren's Call is better than Warburg layout wise, but Warburg allows the higher level power. I haven't been in Bloody Bay since like the first few days of CoV's release. Siren's Call right now because there's not much else to do at 40. Getting to 50 will be nice. Then I can use the Stalker version of MoG till it gets nerfed. :-b
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Then what would the reason be to nerf it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Real actual demonstrated balance problems. Hurricane may be the best argument to keep toggle-dropping to some degree. If you can kite and brawl or a bubbler can force bolt, that has a chance of getting Hurricane even through Clear Mind or the like.
Even so, as pointed out here, it is possible for melee characters to attack, and ranged characters have less of a problem. So, do stormers have vulnerabilities? Yes. They're not invulnerable. A well-played stormer can be hard to deal with in PVP, but there are counters.
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I can't wait for Recluse's Victory. Siren's Call is better than Warburg layout wise, but Warburg allows the higher level power. I haven't been in Bloody Bay since like the first few days of CoV's release. Siren's Call right now because there's not much else to do at 40. Getting to 50 will be nice. Then I can use the Stalker version of MoG till it gets nerfed. :-b
[/ QUOTE ]
Is stalker MoG qualitatively different from scrapper MoG?
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
Real actual demonstrated balance problems. Hurricane may be the best argument to keep toggle-dropping to some degree. If you can kite and brawl or a bubbler can force bolt, that has a chance of getting Hurricane even through Clear Mind or the like.
Even so, as pointed out here, it is possible for melee characters to attack, and ranged characters have less of a problem. So, do stormers have vulnerabilities? Yes. They're not invulnerable. A well-played stormer can be hard to deal with in PVP, but there are counters.
[/ QUOTE ]
If they were to allow for the purchase of higher accuracy rocks to throw and hit the Stormer in the head to knock off toggles this may help solve the problem for Melee's having to go through a bunch of steps to detoggle one power. Even with fear, confuse, etc they have a duration that ends. Constantly running into a hurricane you can't get past because you have no way of doing so doesn't increase the chances of getting through it. Brawl was supposed to give the chance to knock a toggle off, but if you can't get in to actually use it, you don't have the ability to do so.
[ QUOTE ]
I can't wait for Recluse's Victory. Siren's Call is better than Warburg layout wise, but Warburg allows the higher level power. I haven't been in Bloody Bay since like the first few days of CoV's release. Siren's Call right now because there's not much else to do at 40. Getting to 50 will be nice. Then I can use the Stalker version of MoG till it gets nerfed. :-b
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is stalker MoG qualitatively different from scrapper MoG?
[/ QUOTE ]
I currently only have it 2 slotted and also can't use it in SC, but in Warburg it works nice. It's like MoG with a click, lasts x amount of time then drops and takes quite a bit of time to recharge. Nice power, but like MoG, can't use it in SC.
...they're the same power.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
Definately the same power, but the Stalker actually gets a bit more use out of it. The best use of MoG for a Stalker in PvP is against players or teams that can see him. Since you'll be reducing your opponents' chance to hit you down to the 5% minimum in many cases, it becomes extremely different for your opponents to interrupt your assassin strike. Essentially, MoG gives a Stalker free PvP kills in full view of the public and there's often not a damned thing anyone can do about it.
Is this not the same for Elude and Overload?
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Not had much experience with Elude on Stalkers (SR isn't a popular secondary), but Overload seems a bit easier to punch through than MoG for some reason. Not sure why that would be, maybe it's my imagination.
[ QUOTE ]
Definately the same power, but the Stalker actually gets a bit more use out of it. The best use of MoG for a Stalker in PvP is against players or teams that can see him. Since you'll be reducing your opponents' chance to hit you down to the 5% minimum in many cases, it becomes extremely different for your opponents to interrupt your assassin strike. Essentially, MoG gives a Stalker free PvP kills in full view of the public and there's often not a damned thing anyone can do about it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Until the defender uses Will Domination on him 
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
[ QUOTE ]
...they're the same power.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually it's not the same now that I remember what MoG is like. MoG drops your hitpoints all the way down and you have a small amount to keep you alive while it's on. You're tougher and all, but with less HPs. The Ninjitsu Stalker version keeps your HPs full to start and your defenses are high and stamina renews quickly. When it's time is up, your stamina drops to rock bottom and doesn't recover for a few seconds. Is it more like unstoppable or something?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...they're the same power.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually it's not the same now that I remember what MoG is like. MoG drops your hitpoints all the way down and you have a small amount to keep you alive while it's on. You're tougher and all, but with less HPs. The Ninjitsu Stalker version keeps your HPs full to start and your defenses are high and stamina renews quickly. When it's time is up, your stamina drops to rock bottom and doesn't recover for a few seconds. Is it more like unstoppable or something?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not MoG though, that's Kuji Kin Retsu (I think, stupid Ninjitsu names). The Ninjitsu version is actually much closer to Elude than MoG. The confusion is because Stalkers get Regen, and by extension, they also get MoG.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How would you feel if you could only use your primary attacks for two minutes out of every six?
[/ QUOTE ]
My point exactly. It's all you can use against melee scrappers. So what are they supposed to use against you if they can't get close to you?
[/ QUOTE ]
But you CAN get close with a little jousting. Hurricane is easy to overcome if you use your head. And you still didn't answer the question. You got your secondary cut back a bit (my /Regen is thriving at level 30, but can't charge a crowd of purple bosses any more. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me) so you're coming here to advocate the softest targets, with one exception, have that one excpetion brought into line with the rest of the easy meat? Pardon me if I have less than zero sympathy for you. Numerous ways to beat Hurricane have been listed already, try some of them.
[ QUOTE ]
Things need to be equally fair for all in PvP. Everyone should be able to kill each other equally as much. At least that's what's balance is supposed to be like.
[/ QUOTE ]
They are, just not one on one. Well, they are except for Defenders who are the softest targets out there. Except for Stormers.
[ QUOTE ]
This would include taking away the most effective bread and butter powers everyone has from being perma.
[/ QUOTE ]
Only if they are unbeatable, which has been shown numerous times in this thread alone that Hurricane does NOT qualify.
Endurance draining powers have been pre-nerfed beyond all use in PvP for this reason alone. They need some un-nerfing, but that's for a different thread. My point in bringing it up at all is that Transference + Short Circuit as used in PvE would have been totally broken in PvP. Now they're all but useless. Some balance is needed there. Hurricane HAS that ballance, it can be gotten around.
[ QUOTE ]
Took away IH and MoG. They kept Regen's alive.
[/ QUOTE ]
You keep harping on that. They didn't take them away, they made them situational. So what? They did the same with Controller's AoE holds. What good is a controller who can't control a crowd? Controllers have adapted to the new CoH, as have most Scrappers. It's time to drop the bitterness and move on, either adjusting to the new CoX or moving along to a different game.
My /Regen can live (litterally) with a click IH and w/o permaMoG.
[ QUOTE ]
Now what we have to do is spend more time micro managing our toggle and multiple clicks to stay alive.
[/ QUOTE ]
I really do sympathize with this one, I built a /Regen because it was toggles, so I could just focus on my attacks. Now I have to respec (I haven't even done my post-ED respec with mine yet, and he's not the only char in that state either) and relearn to play him. Again.
[ QUOTE ]
I really think Hurricane shoule be a click, bubbles, etc. Being constantly pushed away by Hurricanes I guess is as much fun as you having perma MoG get through your defenses. If I can't touch you, then it's not fair.
[/ QUOTE ]
You keep comparing Hurricane to MoG, there IS no real comparison. You can get by Hurricane with several powers, some of which are available in pools. You can get by Hurricane with sound tactics, or by teaming. I can get by MoG with a full tray of Yellow Insps (not guaranteed) or MAYBE with a full team close by running Tactics.
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Just like I guess it wasn't fair when I could touch you.
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You guess.... Playing a scrapper is playing CoH on Easy mode, even on Invincible. Might as well type IDKFA (speaking of DOOOOOOOM 
) and be done with it. Perma-MoG was broken in PvE, even moreso in PvP. Your "I Win" button was taken away. No one else has one that I know of (and Hurricane definately does NOT qualify). Get over it.
[ QUOTE ]
....says the Stormies who complained about MoG. Clickies for all in PvP only!
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I don't really care to ask you for this mythical list of Stormers you keep waving around. Let's just say that /Regen was overpowered in PvE. Mine could tank against +6 Bosses, are you going to honestly tell me that's not broken? And are you going to say it with a straight face and expect me to believe you?
And don't put my name on the list of Stormers who advocated nerfs to anything, I didn't.
Edit: Finished my sentance. That's what I get for posting from work 
Want to see more tilesets?
Anyone zealously advocating nerfs to powers, powersets, and ATs they themselves don't play is not discussing in good faith. They may not intentionally be posting flamebait, but they are posting for reasons other than wanting the game to be a more enjoyable experience for everyone.
They are best ignored.
Something I have noticed in general - the people who cry nerf over powers (or entire ATs) because of PvP, tend to be PvE players (or just newbies to the game as a whole) who are now trying to PvP or make a transition to being PvP players. Hardcore PvPers "play in the now" and adapt to the game as it is rather than try to get the developers (or other players) to adapt the game to them.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
[ QUOTE ]
Wrong.. Cause obviously you read things I posted and construe your own version of them which is nothing that I said. You don't want to be nerfed because you like having a power that is over powered and are happy playing it. As I've said before, MoG was overpowered, BUT had the ability to be beaten with a team, insperations, "the right powers", etc etc. Same things people have "suggested" to me about overcoming hurricane. Yesterday there were about 10 of us in SC in a circle around a Hurricane person trying to take them out. Eventually they fell, like what would happen with MoG if they "had the right team". 10 people shouldn't be needed to take out any one AT and especially ONE power. That's the problem. Call me what you want, I understand you like you're toon unnerfed, who doesn't. But Hurricane needs to be "fixed". Much love... Me.
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Wow. That had nothing to do with the post you quoted.
You know, I think you're right. Thinking about it, people with hover have an unfair advantage, too. When they're using hover, my meleers can't get anywher near them. I mean, sure I could respec and take hover, or superjump, but hover sucks because I don't like it for some arbitrary reason! I shouldn't have to change my build to counter someone else's power!
Do you realize how absurd your arguments are? How weak your rationale is? Are you concious of this fact? Are you, in fact, lying and exaggerating to justify your continued argument? I begin to suspect you are. Because there is no acknowledgement of reality in your words.
Jason Heavensrun
Swift : Freedom Server
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/CheckmateStudios
Check out my first Architect Arc, "Bring Up the Sun", arc #339507, and let me know what you think!