In PvP zones, this can easily be countered by an amazing trick called Logging Off and then back on. Ultimate slap in the face to a
Defender. In Arenas... aren't you supposed to have other players involved?
Pretty weak counter, don't you think? I mean, if you force someone to log, wouldn't you concider that the very definition of griefing? In fact, "you can just log off and back on" was the rallying cry of the hospital campers not so long ago if you'll recall.
The problem is, the stormie in that scenario couldn't win either. So, if hurricane gets cut, then the stormie can only lose to the regen? That doesn't sound good either.
As a defender I have had trouble dishing out enough damage to actually finish a fight. Contrast this with the results if a stalker gets the drop on me, and my defender is dead almost instantly. Both situations aren't so much fun, mostly because you can't fight back.
To a certain extent it is paper/rock/scissors. For every strong set, there is *something* that can take it out. And for most "weak" sets there is something out there that is vulnerable to what you do. The trouble, sometimes, is dishing out enough damage to finish the fight, once you find the ones you are strong against.
Shae Firewarder
So then, the response to that becomes the same as the reponse to the meleer who can't kill the stormie - get a team. Takes us right back to that team-on-team balance goal.
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I did. Reread the posts about the requirements I'm asked to do. Take this power, that power, fill up on insps, and get a team. All for one power because one melee can barely touch it by itself. A little too many "requirements" for overcome one power.
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I'd actually be able to empathize with this arguement if a Storm Defender could kill a Regener, even one locked into a corner.
I've had my claws/regen locked into a corner by a stormer who focused on her attacks, and still couldn't kill me within fifteen minutes, just because of integration and reconstruction. I'd hate to think what slotted IH could do.
If not having the right powers meant an instant loss, sure, then we'd have a problem. But as it is, Stormers aren't going to be 'always win' characters. They tend toward stalemates in solo.
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Therein lies the problem. They either need to nerf things of come up with things to counter these kinds of problems. Temp powers that can counter them and actually work would be a start. As I've said, stun grenade and web rarely seem to work for me, never mind the bugs in trying to buy them, showing up, and then having them use the EMP icon when they're supposed to be one of the grenades. That's a different story in itself though.
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As I've said, stun grenade and web rarely seem to work for me,
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I've already invited you to come to Test and throw grenades at me to prove this.
Whenever's good for you.
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I did. Reread the posts about the requirements I'm asked to do. Take this power, that power, fill up on insps, and get a team. All for one power because one melee can barely touch it by itself. A little too many "requirements" for overcome one power.
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I'd actually be able to empathize with this arguement if a Storm Defender could kill a Regener, even one locked into a corner.
I've had my claws/regen locked into a corner by a stormer who focused on her attacks, and still couldn't kill me within fifteen minutes, just because of integration and reconstruction. I'd hate to think what slotted IH could do.
If not having the right powers meant an instant loss, sure, then we'd have a problem. But as it is, Stormers aren't going to be 'always win' characters. They tend toward stalemates in solo.
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If it was that time with Tribal Boogie, Boogie wasn't even slotted for damage. I told him he was a big old stupidhead, and he refused to fight me over it. I remember telling him he was required to get freezing rain and stuff.
Although, you're probably not talking about him because you mentioned actually using Integration.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
No, Tribal doesn't count. I didn't really try to do much there except try to get some numbers on Hurricane's debuff, anyway, so it wouldn't have been a good example.
There was a decently long thread in the PVP forum, right before Christmas, describing a Brute who was really irritated that he got pinned for 15 minutes straight. Til someone asked what the Stormer was doing, and the response was 'no real damage'.
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Funny, I don't see Hurricane as 'broken' so much as it's 'difficult to overcome with a melee character.'
But it CAN be overcome.
ID (well, now, not so much), Practiced Brawler, other knockback/down protections, Focus, leaping attacks, Hover, Combat Jumping, Transference+Transfusion (properly slotted), Short Circuit/Power Sink, Tesla Cage, etc etc etc.
Hurricane by itself isn't an "I Win" power by ANY stretch of the imagination. You just have to use your imagination to come up with ways your character can overcome it.
The same goes for any of the other 'aura toggle' powers in the game. Hurricane just happens to be the one people are focusing on currently... next it could be Icicles.
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Heh. I dont see what the fuss is about. I've been playing since Beta and fought countless sorcerers with various toons. I just thought Hurrican debuffed accuracy. I didnt know it knocked you down until someone told me it did. I think I've been knocked down once by it possibly more but I might not have known it was hurricane that did it. If anything I'd raise the precentage chance to get knocked down.
Kid, there is an ultimately simple solution to all of your stormie problems. If im not mistaken you are complaining that whenever you try to attack them, you cant reach them. And if your complaint is that they attack you, and you cant fight back this solution also works. You said you have TP so being locked into a corner is no problem for you either. The solution? AVOID THEM. If you know you cant get close enough to attack them, despite all of the helpfull suggestions this thread has for dealing with hurricane, then simply dont try. So you cant beat up stormies, no biggie, Is that a blaster over there? *PUNCH* *POW* *TWACK* Good times. How about that MM foolishly hiding behind his petshields when they dont taunt? *HURT* *PAIN* *GENERIC-FIGHTING-NOISE* Yep, still lots of things to fight. Just leave the stormies to people who are designed to fight them. And dont tell me that I just dont want Stormies nerfed because I have one, and that fair is fair. I also have a level 34 Ma/Regen who I played before and after the MoG and IH nerfs. It hasnt slowed me down, and hasnt kept me from laying some kicks on the heads of people.
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The solution? AVOID THEM.
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That'd be great if it weren't for the fact that Storm/* defs and */Storm trollers have become the PvP FotM toon of choice lately. You can't swing a dead cat in SC or Warburg, at least on Champion server, without hitting about a dozen of them.
Is this the part where I make a mild sarcastic comment about Stalkers?
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
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Is this the part where I make a mild sarcastic comment about Stalkers?
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Nah, its much harder to swing a dead stalker and hit them, the stalkers are bigger 
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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Is this the part where I make a mild sarcastic comment about Stalkers?
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I fail to see the relevance to the discussion, but sure, why the hell not? Go for it.
Relevance to comment about there being so many stormers: Hurricane tends to be a primary counter for Stalkers, one of two opposing side melee-types in SC, and probably the single thing that everyone+dog is trying to counter?
Or perhaps I should have said it differently, along the lines of "I can't put Crisis Zone in the PS2 without slicing the heads off a couple Stalkers".
(*is trying hard to make sense at this time of morning*)
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
Actually you're talking about something of an arms race then, concidering the fact that */EA Stalkers are quite good against Storm users, and that secondary has become FAR more popular since the repulsion protection was added to Entropy Shield. The proponderance of TP Foe (which it also protects against) and Hurricane in PvP makes */EA much more useful than it might otherwise be.
In other words, rolling a Stormie isn't an effective counter against Stalkers anymore, so if that's indeed why they've become FotM, it's a bad reason.
So many arms races going on at once.
*ponders Lord of War*
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
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IH and MoG were nerfed because regen scrappers were SOLOING +3 MONSTERS.
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Clarify that please. Spines and Dark regens were doing that because of the debuffs from their primaries. (Slow and -acc respectively). Those debuffs caused them to take fewer hits. At the height of my Kat/Regens power (read: able to tank Hami) giant monsters were not soloable for me. Nerfs to Regen after issue 4's release were in direct response to PvP issues. not PvE
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Phase shift was nerfed because it was being used for herding.
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Phase shift just didnt hold aggro long enough for herding. In PvP, phased Illusion controllers were using phase along with Phantom Army to win matches at no risk to themselves.
Logic dictates the motivators behind those nerfs.
As far as hurricane goes, I personally dont use it very often in PvE. Artic Air is a much more effective power. When I do use hurricane its to 'corner' minions while I deal with boss mobs. If I ever PvP with that toon, hurricane would be the more useful power.
~Liberty~
The LEGION (CoH) - The Fallen LEGION (CoV)
Forget your fears and want no more
50's - Renkoro, Remorseless
~Virtue~
Angry Angels / Jaded Angels
Global - @Puretone
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At the height of my Kat/Regens power (read: able to tank Hami) giant monsters were not soloable for me. Nerfs to Regen after issue 4's release were in direct response to PvP issues. not PvE.
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Did you forget Divine Avalache or something? That single power provides as much relative -acc as five DM/ attacks.
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Phase shift just didnt hold aggro long enough for herding. In PvP, phased Illusion controllers were using phase along with Phantom Army to win matches at no risk to themselves.
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Before the fixes to AI between i5 and i6, ANY enemy that could see you, inside a mission, would follow you until you zoned, died, or went from floor to floor. My Storm/Elec used Phase Shift a couple times to get through missions, and when he got to the end, it was quite common to have a few million enemies surrounding him.
Could a tanker use this to tank a herded group? Of course not, it drops his aggro metric to nearly 0, so as soon as the enemies saw anyone that wasn't phased, they'd go annihilate them. That said, you could use Phase Shift to herd multiple groups in pure safety - say, if you didn't want to use Granite Armor or Unyielding Stance, or needed 20 enemies around you at all times for Invincibility - toggle on those powers, and then turn off phase shift.
That wasn't the primary reason - there were an infinite number of level 40-50 missions that could be Phased through, which kinda made leveling those last ten even more of a joke than it was with all the powerleveling going on - but it was one of them.
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Phase shift was nerfed because it was being used for herding.
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Phase shift just didnt hold aggro long enough for herding. In PvP, phased Illusion controllers were using phase along with Phantom Army to win matches at no risk to themselves.
Logic dictates the motivators behind those nerfs.
As far as hurricane goes, I personally dont use it very often in PvE. Artic Air is a much more effective power. When I do use hurricane its to 'corner' minions while I deal with boss mobs. If I ever PvP with that toon, hurricane would be the more useful power.
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Actually, ANYONE with pets could level in complete safety in this fashion, especially Masterminds.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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I did. Reread the posts about the requirements I'm asked to do. Take this power, that power, fill up on insps, and get a team. All for one power because one melee can barely touch it by itself. A little too many "requirements" for overcome one power.
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Except you don't have to do -all- of them to overcome the power. There were multiple solutions given, any of which could help even the odds.
You have a perfectly good temp power that works against it approximately 50% of the time.
But the simple fact of the matter is, you don't want to have a -chance- against them. You want to be able to "PWN" them, plain and simple. You don't like the nerfs to your own powersets, Because you can't dominate the game like you used to, and you want that feeling of constant superiority back. You want that feeling of control back.
That's really what this is all about. Every one of your replies supports this. You have expressed absolutely -no- desire to compromise or edit your playing style to overcome an obstacle. If YOU can't beat something with your CURRENT build, it must be unbalanced. Well, that's not the way PvP works, in this or any other MMO. Go play Unreal Tournament, or Quake, or Halo, or any other competetive online game where your skillz are all that matters. CoH is an RPG, and RPGs are about strategy. They're about -manipulating your resources- to achieve results. And if you're not willing to manipulate, to change what you have and why; if you just want the devs to give you an "I win" button, you're going to -continue- to be sorely dissapointed with the performance of the devs of this game. You're going to continually find things that you don't like, you're going to complain, and we're going to have to deal with you.
So please, do yourself, the developers of this game, and all the players on this forum a favor. Either change your attitude, or stop posting on the forum. You're not constructive. You have nothing valuable to contribute. You are, in a word, worthless here.
Jason Heavensrun
Swift : Freedom Server
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/CheckmateStudios
Check out my first Architect Arc, "Bring Up the Sun", arc #339507, and let me know what you think!
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IH and MoG were nerfed because regen scrappers were SOLOING +3 MONSTERS.
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Clarify that please. Spines and Dark regens were doing that because of the debuffs from their primaries. (Slow and -acc respectively). Those debuffs caused them to take fewer hits. At the height of my Kat/Regens power (read: able to tank Hami) giant monsters were not soloable for me. Nerfs to Regen after issue 4's release were in direct response to PvP issues. not PvE.
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I disagree. First off, the particular statement I made was a little impulsive, so I didn't qualify it much, but it's true that Regen builds were soloing overlevel monsters. They were tanking AVs. I was running missions on invincible without breaking a sweat, and I was a -concept- build. Spines and Dark might've been surviving because of their debuffs, but the fact is, the debuffs should have at -best- allowed them to survive a bit longer against the giant thing stomping on them.
We were overpowered in PvE. We were a flavor of the month -forever- because even after several nerfs, we were -still- the kickass solo build. That in and of itself should say something.
PvP may well have been part of the concern, but Regen scrappers dominated in PvE, and nobody can deny that. Now, I would say we're fairly well balanced. Before, we were an exploit waiting to happen.
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Phase shift was nerfed because it was being used for herding.
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Phase shift just didnt hold aggro long enough for herding. In PvP, phased Illusion controllers were using phase along with Phantom Army to win matches at no risk to themselves.
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As has been mentioned, any AT with pets could also clear missions in PvE this -exact- -same- -way-. As has also been mentioned, the enemy AI used to work differently then it does now.
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Logic dictates the motivators behind those nerfs.
As far as hurricane goes, I personally dont use it very often in PvE. Artic Air is a much more effective power. When I do use hurricane its to 'corner' minions while I deal with boss mobs. If I ever PvP with that toon, hurricane would be the more useful power.
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The stormie in my SG uses it pretty regularly, as do a lot of others. So while it might not affect you much if it were changed, there are a lot of people that would be put out by it, so I think an honest discussion of whether it is overpowered is a fair one.
Jason Heavensrun
Swift : Freedom Server
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/CheckmateStudios
Check out my first Architect Arc, "Bring Up the Sun", arc #339507, and let me know what you think!
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At the height of my Kat/Regens power (read: able to tank Hami) giant monsters were not soloable for me. Nerfs to Regen after issue 4's release were in direct response to PvP issues. not PvE.
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Did you forget Divine Avalache or something? That single power provides as much relative -acc as five DM/ attacks.
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Phase shift just didnt hold aggro long enough for herding. In PvP, phased Illusion controllers were using phase along with Phantom Army to win matches at no risk to themselves.
[/ QUOTE ]
Before the fixes to AI between i5 and i6, ANY enemy that could see you, inside a mission, would follow you until you zoned, died, or went from floor to floor. My Storm/Elec used Phase Shift a couple times to get through missions, and when he got to the end, it was quite common to have a few million enemies surrounding him.
Could a tanker use this to tank a herded group? Of course not, it drops his aggro metric to nearly 0, so as soon as the enemies saw anyone that wasn't phased, they'd go annihilate them. That said, you could use Phase Shift to herd multiple groups in pure safety - say, if you didn't want to use Granite Armor or Unyielding Stance, or needed 20 enemies around you at all times for Invincibility - toggle on those powers, and then turn off phase shift.
That wasn't the primary reason - there were an infinite number of level 40-50 missions that could be Phased through, which kinda made leveling those last ten even more of a joke than it was with all the powerleveling going on - but it was one of them.
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Wrong.. Cause obviously you read things I posted and construe your own version of them which is nothing that I said. You don't want to be nerfed because you like having a power that is over powered and are happy playing it. As I've said before, MoG was overpowered, BUT had the ability to be beaten with a team, insperations, "the right powers", etc etc. Same things people have "suggested" to me about overcoming hurricane. Yesterday there were about 10 of us in SC in a circle around a Hurricane person trying to take them out. Eventually they fell, like what would happen with MoG if they "had the right team". 10 people shouldn't be needed to take out any one AT and especially ONE power. That's the problem. Call me what you want, I understand you like you're toon unnerfed, who doesn't. But Hurricane needs to be "fixed". Much love... Me.
Interesting. You have 10 players, none of which had ranged attacks, none of which bothered to pick up Stun Grenades. And, of course, this shows you had a balanced team. After all, some of them had Spines, some had pink pom-poms.
When did you use Phase Shift? Did you try teleport Foeing them into enemies - perferably ones with a mez or strong damage attack (Tsoo Swift Steels are FUNNNNN)?
No, you and ten stalkers decided to try running into a brick wall, and when it didn't work, you decided to call nerfs.
Very nice.
Isn't that worse, though? You have the capability to lock a regenner into a corner so that he can take no action against you whatsoever (assuming he doesn't have friends or Teleport) and hold him there indefinately. Not only is that unbalanced in the stormie's favor, it's HUGE potential for griefing. That in and of itself is a very disturbing problem.
*edit* Note: that doesn't mean I think anything needs to be nerfed. Forcefield can do the same thing with FB, but I certainly wouldn't say FF needs to be nerfed. I do think there's some sort of problem with repulsion powers and their potential for griefing that needs to be addressed, however. I remember a particular arena match once on test where a forcefielder trapped me in a corner on my BS/Reg scrapper and just held me there for the entire 10 minutes, just so I couldn't help my team.