Hopefully to sum this entire thread up, whenever the question "Will there be nerfs?" is asked, the answer, invariably, is "Yes."
When the question is "When will those nerfs happen?", the answer, invariably, is "Soon."
I hope that helps.
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Oh yeah.
They should also add a Temp Power that lets a Defender do 80% of Blaster damage in a PVP Zone and gives them native Mez Protection.
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These temporary powers all ready exist. They're called inspirations.
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Oh yeah.
They should also add a Temp Power that lets a Defender do 80% of Blaster damage in a PVP Zone and gives them native Mez Protection.
[/ QUOTE ]
These temporary powers all ready exist. They're called inspirations.
[/ QUOTE ]
*nod* In that case, every toon in the game has 95% accuracy against all targets, capped damage, unbreakable mez protection, infinite endurance and health, 90% damage resistance, and 95% defense against all targets.
NERF EVERYONE!
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I can NOT believe that a melee type has the freakin' audacity to come into a squishy forum and whine about PvP. Defenders, with the lone exception of stormers, are the easiest targets in PvP. Everyone knows it, and you have the brass to come in here and kvetch about the ONE defender powerset that gives you grief. And on top of that you're too lazy to take the 10 seconds to figure out how to beat it yourself.
Well there's your freebie, now go back to the Scrapper forum and whine about how /Regen was nerfed some more.
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Well, it's good that you held the high ground and didn't try to discredit his position on the basis of what kind of characters he might play or something.
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I would tend to agree with you, but there is kindof a point here. KQ has a bit of a malcontent attitude about him, and he -does- complain about regen's nerfs -in his sig-. A lot of people have some difficulty being rational toward people with his approach on the game, because his approach on the game is not entirely rational. (And the opposite is true as well; somebody who's been hit with the nerf hammer too many times, they can have a hard time empathising with people who still respect the devs and the game.) I guess what I'm getting at is it's all too easy for both sides to get wrapped up in name calling in accusations. We're all raitonal agents here, we should try to appeal to that aspect of one another if we want to reach any sort of agreement.
Sure, it doesn't always -work-, but if we don't try to at least encourage that, where does that leave us?
Jason Heavensrun
Swift : Freedom Server
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/CheckmateStudios
Check out my first Architect Arc, "Bring Up the Sun", arc #339507, and let me know what you think!
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You can lose the smirk. The myriad changes to MoG and IH -started- before the revised "giant monster" system. After that, continued nerfs occured because Regen scrappers were effectively tanking on invincible, and were distincitvely more effective at PvP then other builds. Each nerf was a little more questionable then the ones prior to it, because each time Regen was a little less absurd, but back when it all started, a solid regen build was pretty much unkillable.
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Which of course justifies making hyperbolic complains about what they were capable of in, say, issue 5.
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Hey, hey, don't misunderstand me, Kali, I wasn't -complaining- about anything they used to be able to do, and I never said they were doing that -recently-. Maybe I should've been clearer, but I wasn't trying to misrepresent anything.
What I was trying to do was make the point that the long fall of regen scrappers -began- because of a MASSIVE PVE imbalance, and I saw no evidence to imply that any of those changes were to curb the set for PvP concerns. IH and MoG both went through extensive changes over -several- issues because the devs were struggling to find the right "spot" for the AT.
It wasn't a PvP nerf as KidQuik seems to believe, it was the tail end of a very long-running struggle with the identity of the set. KQ is playing a little game of "let's rewrite history" here (or at least a game of "Conspiracy Theories 101"), and that bothered me, so I was perhaps a little more taciturn then I meant to be, but in no way was I trying to exaggerate what regenners have been -recently- capable of. Just stating facts.
Around the time Regenners were drawing the attention of the mighty nerf bat, I watched a fellow regen solo an overlevel Jurassik that had creamed the rest of our party. It took awhile, but he did it, and he was never in any real danger of being KO'd.
I also heard talk of other absurd things, but that's the shining example I personally experienced, and things like that are why Regen attracted the nerf bat. Perma MoG was unbalancing in PvE, and furthermore, was a disruption of the -concept- of regen. Perma IH was similarly unbalancing. Regenners could always run on invincible. Hell, -I- still can, I just have to be careful about it now. That is PvE imbalance, and that's why Regen got nerfed, not because of any PvP issues. That's -all- I was trying to get across.
Jason Heavensrun
Swift : Freedom Server
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/CheckmateStudios
Check out my first Architect Arc, "Bring Up the Sun", arc #339507, and let me know what you think!
Within a second is not the same time.
Unfortunately, it may be almost imposible for players to do this, once you get hit by knockback attacks, only very few of them actually do a "knockback debuf".
NPCs however are all managed by the same clock in cycles (or at least that is the way most programs handle AI) so it is very very likely for a full spawn to do the same attack at the exact same time and therefore you get to see a knockback happen.
As for repulsion, if there is a supression it is so short lived that i hever been able to get to a hurricane or other repulsion field user to hit them with my scrappers. So i dont mean that there is actually no supression, but if it is there it is so short i sometimes doubt it even exsists.
All in all, I personaly have NEVER been knocked back on my regen scrapper or my invuln tanker during PvE. I do have been knocked back rarely with my fire tanker's Acrobatic. There are no special status protection bonuses at all in PvP, no band aid, just you hoping you can knockback some one because maybe once you saw a huge herd, or way higher level enemies, knock a regen back.
As for the "any enhancement" part, there are no knockback magnitude enhancements, only knockback distance enhancements. There have never been ways to enhance status effects. Only way to overcome status protection has always been multiple applications of status effects, and since knockback does not really leave any "debuf" there is no real way to overcome it reliably.
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As for repulsion, if there is a supression it is so short lived that i hever been able to get to a hurricane or other repulsion field user to hit them with my scrappers. So i dont mean that there is actually no supression, but if it is there it is so short i sometimes doubt it even exsists.
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Repulsion doesn't suppress. Knockback suppresses for 10 seconds. Hold/Sleep/Disorient suppress for 15 seconds. Okay?
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There have never been ways to enhance status effects.
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_Castle_ has stated that knockback magnitude is the same as knockback distance. Geko has stated that Intangibility Enhancements enhance magnitude - and that they do so because Intangibility powers can never stack...
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Oh yeah.
They should also add a Temp Power that lets a Defender do 80% of Blaster damage in a PVP Zone and gives them native Mez Protection.
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These temporary powers all ready exist. They're called inspirations.
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*nod* In that case, every toon in the game has 95% accuracy against all targets, capped damage, unbreakable mez protection, infinite endurance and health, 90% damage resistance, and 95% defense against all targets.
NERF EVERYONE!
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The number of inspirations it takes to get 80% Blaster damage compared to the number it takes to get infinite health makes your comparrison a bit silly.
You could pretty easily walk around with 80% Blaster damage for 10 or 15 minutes or so in PvP using Inspirations, and using the long duration "old style" break frees you can get from bounty turn ins you could have some mez protection in a non-toggle format for about as long.
Which is the only reason I mentioned them: because you could actually feasibly use purchased inspirations to obtain what he was asking for over reasonable durations. Why respond to me sarcastically?
Well, I think YOUR comparison is silly! SO THERE! 
To meet average blaster damage (post SOs, assuming Aim + BU, which gives average blaster damage as 238% compared to Defender base at 65%), a Defender much chomp down 7 Reds every minute. That's between 70 and 105 reds for your 'analysis'.
Where'd you get those extra inspiration trays.
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i seriously think that if the devs set the attack range floor to 5 feet (or whatever) everything would be fine.
hurricane would be good, but not overpowered.
ranged aoes could still be used.
melee classes could still use melee attacks.
and the devs could finally get around to allowing hurricane to properly debuff the ranged attacks for melee classes instead of this cheap bandaid-fix we have now.
yes, i'm sick of getting ganked by spines scrappers, what can i say?
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While I did say that a range floor would be a good change, I will only agree to it if lightning storm loses its cheap bandaid toggle droppers...
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i thought this was about hurricane.
start your own thread, dood!
Point in case is that the person I was referencing wanted a Temp Power for the sole purpose of allowing him to overcome a design issue of his chosen AT(s)/Powerset Combination(s). I just asked for the same.
I haven't taken my Stormie into PVP territory lately, but before I5 at least, I could not kill an Invul Tank without using a ton of Inspirations with the Stormie, even if the Tank did nothing but stand there. I doubt I could kill one now. And Storm is a set with two damaging Pseudo-Pets and a -Res power. Now, I understand I'm dealing with a Tank. Tanks are supposed to be hard to kill and Defenders probably have the worst total damage output in the game right now if we include Pet damage for Controllers. I'm not happy with it, but it's a design issue.
Obviously, your argument, while factually correct is not compatible with the comparison in the sense it was intended to be read.
Fact is that right now, Defenders are a second class AT already, which is numerical fact (see Current Defender issues, assorted threads on these boards). Pound for pound, Scrappers are probably the most powerful AT out there on their own merits and throughout their careers. The latter trying to get the former nerfed is plain insulting.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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Please dwell on this more. How would say a */Regen, */DA, or a */SR scrapper be able to overcome it?
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I play a stormie and get Hurricane shut down all the time. Just queue brawl and jump over the 'cane. The brawl will almost always drop a toggle, and stormies only have so many toggles to drop. Depending on your build, you might need to turn on Sprint to get the necessary jump distance, and if you have a better toggle-dropper than brawl use it instead.
PvP isn't balanced for 1 on 1. How are those same scrappers going to deal with an Energy blaster with Hover? Should Hover be made a click power too? In a similar case, how are fire blasters going to deal with fire tanks? I guess we should make the fire shields click powers so the fire blaster has a chance.
If you have a well rounded team, things like a Stormie shouldn't be an issue, it provides no defense from people outside the storm and Stormies are vulnerable to mez. If you are fighting 1 on 1, just accept that you will win some and lose some. My AR/Dev has no chance in PvP vs. an Invuln tank, I've learned to accept it. Unlike PvE, there is no expectation that every fight is winable.
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Oh, I don't mind knockback protection. It just should only protect you from, you know Hurricane OR Freezing Rain OR Gale OR Tornado OR Lightning Storm OR even a combination of a couple of the above. But all of them at the same time?
Losing toggledroppers just to get some mild protection from Spines scrappers (possibly for an entire 10 seconds after they immoblize me from 30 yards) isn't exactly my idea of a fair trade.
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yes but isnt the purpose of Storm is all knockback? just like sonic is -res. or ice is -rech.
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As for repulsion, if there is a supression it is so short lived that i hever been able to get to a hurricane or other repulsion field user to hit them with my scrappers. So i dont mean that there is actually no supression, but if it is there it is so short i sometimes doubt it even exsists.
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Repulsion doesn't suppress. Knockback suppresses for 10 seconds. Hold/Sleep/Disorient suppress for 15 seconds. Okay?
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Most likely the reason it does not matter at all is because every one with status effects have more than one they can and will chain to keep you permadisabled.
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_Castle_ has stated that knockback magnitude is the same as knockback distance. Geko has stated that Intangibility Enhancements enhance magnitude - and that they do so because Intangibility powers can never stack...
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Yet sloting knockback only seems to push things further, not manage to knock back anythign that is strong against knockback in PvE.
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Oh yeah.
They should also add a Temp Power that lets a Defender do 80% of Blaster damage in a PVP Zone and gives them native Mez Protection.
[/ QUOTE ]
These temporary powers all ready exist. They're called inspirations.
[/ QUOTE ]
*nod* In that case, every toon in the game has 95% accuracy against all targets, capped damage, unbreakable mez protection, infinite endurance and health, 90% damage resistance, and 95% defense against all targets.
NERF EVERYONE!
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The number of inspirations it takes to get 80% Blaster damage compared to the number it takes to get infinite health makes your comparrison a bit silly.
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Now you're just being obstinant. Four healths brings you to full health. Even w/ Aim, it'd take you 6 damage inspirations just to reach the Defender cap. Then you'd need to have a debuff or something to go [b]over[/]b the Defender cap to reach 80% Blaster damage. You'd have a much better shot at getting Regen health levels than getting Blaster damage w/ inspirations.
Not that any Defender can ever use Damage or Health inspirations, since you're bar is full of Break Frees. . .
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Most likely the reason it does not matter at all is because every one with status effects have more than one they can and will chain to keep you permadisabled.
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Disorient, Hold, and Sleep are all on the same suppression timer. If suppression gives you immunity to one, you get immunity to all three.
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Yet sloting knockback only seems to push things further, not manage to knock back anythign that is strong against knockback in PvE.
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Torrent with three knockback SOs lets my scrapper knockdown Malta Zeus Titans a good percentage of the time. Without those enhancements, Torrent does nothing against them.
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Most likely the reason it does not matter at all is because every one with status effects have more than one they can and will chain to keep you permadisabled.
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Disorient, Hold, and Sleep are all on the same suppression timer. If suppression gives you immunity to one, you get immunity to all three.
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Yet sloting knockback only seems to push things further, not manage to knock back anythign that is strong against knockback in PvE.
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Torrent with three knockback SOs lets my scrapper knockdown Malta Zeus Titans a good percentage of the time. Without those enhancements, Torrent does nothing against them.
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Aha! Maybe thats why my Mastermind can't knockdown anything with Whirlwind.
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I can NOT believe that a melee type has the freakin' audacity to come into a squishy forum and whine about PvP. Defenders, with the lone exception of stormers, are the easiest targets in PvP.
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Having played from both sides, I think it's safe to say that it's not just defenders. It's 90% defenders, controllers, corruptors, dominators, and masterminds. Excepting Hurricane versus melee and PFF users. Blasters have actually proven to not be that badly off, because they have enough damage to overcome the lack of CC resist if they're well played.
I'd actually place most dominators and corruptors below defenders, except for one little thing. Stalkers. With stalkers running around on the villain side, defenders and controllers end up feeling a lot more 'squishy' than their villainous counterparts. But in the end, there isn't much difference between being dropped in one-shot by AS or two shots by an EM stalker and being dropped in two or three shots by a scrapper or blapper. Only difference is you don't see the stalker coming, while the scrapper or blaster might take the time to stun or hold you before they attack.
Presuming it isn't melee versus 'cane, you aren't using PFF, or one or two other potential escapes.
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Kid,
Look I'm sorry that Regen was nerfed. But I assure you it wasn't a storm defender that did it. I realize you are having a hard time with it, but lashing out at anything that you aren't guaranteed to beat every time you face it in PvP isn't the way to fix your issues.
Many people in this thread have brought up multiple ways to deal with hurricane. Is it good defense? Yes! But is it unbeatable? No. Otherwise I'd have a many fewer debt badges and a much better PvP rating. If you want to discuss making it a click versus toggle I'm happy to read your (and other people's) points. But every post seems to be "my regen was nerfed, so we must nerf others." Look I never spoke up in either direction during the regen nerfs, basically because I've never played a regen beyond the midteens. So I have hard time seeing why you've chosen stormers as the focus of your revenge for the nerfs. I guess all of the other defenders are too squishy and easy to beat, so you'll take on the one that stands any chance.
Sorry back to the discussion, I just had to throw this in here because the unnecessary attacks in your posts were really getting to me.
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If you read all of my posts you'd see it's not only about Regen and it's not only about turning Hurricane's into clicks, but other powers that add a perma invincibility in one sense or another. I keep getting "there are many ways to take out Storm Controllers with Hurricane!". Sure there are. As there were for pre-nerf Regen Scrappers with IH and MoG. And considering I never used MoG(it was the power to get just because it was the last power for me, but one I never used) before PvP and I only used it on the test server and slotted it with SOs and Hami's on test. Controller's would whine "NO FAIR! He got past Hurricane with perma MoG". Now with the nerf I'm a bowling pin all the time with hurricane. I don't have ranged attacks unless I go and buy web and stun grenades which never seem to work. I get held constantly, my Int toggles drops, my IH can be used every like 8 or 9 minutes along with MoG. So for melee people with no range attacks, hurricane presents a problem.
This isn't about MY toon and only my toon, it's about this supposed attempt at balance the devs have that will require not just nerfing scrappers or people with phase shift or things like that, it's about nerfing ATs so they are equally defeatable to each other. Do I think that's an easy thing to do, do I think it's possible without totally making many people unhappy, no. Each our AT's had strengths and weaknesses before PvP. Now by nerfing one type of power that once was able to beat another, now reversed the situation and now has the other power overpowered. I'm one of the people who complains about nerfing powers for everyone for ATs I don't have! Why do you think I say "make these nerf for PvP only and let people keep their toons identity in PvE!" But unfortunately "balance vision" in PvP is going to piss off a lot of people because their powers will be nerfed. My Regen scrapper has been nerfed to death. Did I like it, no. Do I play him that much these days? No. There's not much for a fully badged 50 Regen Scrapper to do BUT PvP at this stage. I was the one being complained about on test in PvP with perma-Mog by those who had the power squash them. Was it overpowered, yes? Now I'm the one complaining about an overpowered. Now I know how it feels from both sides, and I think Storm Controller's will soon experience the same thing. It's not fun getting your toon nerfed. I know, oh do I know. But it'll happen because we're all supposed to be homogenized now or something.
i dunno.
it's still very easy for people to bring down a storm defender.
it sucks to get trapped in the corner by one, but there are plenty of ways around it.
maybe not for all builds, but for many.
i should know. as a storm controller i still have a really tough time keeping a well-built toon in a corner.
and my controller is built to do just that.
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Have you tried Stun Grenading the Stormer, or using the EMP glove? I hate to actually interject logic to your nerffest, but last I checked, no solo stormer can get mez protection, and the only self-heal they can get is Life Drain or Aid Self.
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Yes. They don't seem to work for me. I can't range attack, control, or heal others either. I'm not a blaster, controller or defender.
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Right now it's just way too overpowerered.
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It cracks me up that someone who has a regen scrapper and a stalker (save your breath I have both) is complaining about hurricane being too powerful.
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Agreed. They should also add a temp power that will let you get past Hurricane. I mean there's one to help see stalkers, body shield against some dmg, an EMP gllove that sometimes work, and the web and stun grenades then rarely seem to work. The temps powers they have seem to give people the option to spend a little cash to try to put you on a more equal playing field with the mix of ATs you're fighting in the field.
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Oh yeah.
They should also add a Temp Power that lets a Defender do 80% of Blaster damage in a PVP Zone and gives them native Mez Protection.
It's nice to see people who argue so passionately about some point or another. Really. But the thing is, unless you've played a Defender for some stretch of time, you shouldn't be arguing for or against Defender powers.
As it stands now, Defenders for the most part have a Secondary -their supposed Primary, which just so happens to be used just as efficiently or better by Controllers in ca. 25-30% of cases- and a Tertiary powerset -their supposed Secondary, which does pitiful damage due to Blaster whining. Every Controller can get some amount of native Mez Protection from the APPs if they so choose. Every Blaster can get several toggle-droppers into their build if they so choose.
Defenders can do any of that only situationally, and are equipped with sub-par powersets. Hurricane is one of the few gems in Defender sets, and even that is a power that is used almost as efficiently by Controllers (Defenders get a better ToHit DeBuff).
Make you a deal: You see to it that Defenders get properly balanced against Blasters and Controllers, and then you can come back and whine about a single Defender power that's causing you troubles.
Someone made an argument about 'several Hurricane users with Mez Protection from another source' (paraphrased) and how they can only be overcome by a bunch of Spines Scrappers. Counter-question? What can't be overcome by a bunch of Spines Scrappers? That's right. Shouldn't this give you more incentive to call for a nerf to Spines Scrappers instead of beating on the already battered Defenders?
Give us 80% of Blaster damage in our Secondaries instead of 65% with some occasional but generally useless increased Secondary effect.
Give us 125% Controller efficiency in our Primaries across the board. (Equates to Controllers being 80% of Defenders.)
Or otherwise, stay the hell away.
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I'm a MA scrapper. I have no ranged attacks. Fine, give Defenders blaster like temp powers in PvP. You're not seeing what I've been trying to say in multiple messages. PvP is a mess. The devs more or less have to neuter every AT to make things fair, balanced, or whatever BS you want to call it. We all USED to have a purpose in the game that was specific to our AT. Now to make things "balanced" in PvP, we begin to lose that identity to try to make ATs equally be able to defeat each other. That ball chopping should apply to all ATs though. No one should be impervious to the other. Do I agree with this logic in the sense that all ATs should be the same, NO, NOT AT ALL. I'd prefer we all be nerf free and go have fun doing what each AT used to be able to do best in PvP like we did in PvE. That's obviously not acceptable though because there will be people who whine about one power being too strong, some being to weak. I know Controller's did it about Regen's MoG, and I know multiple ATs do it about Hurricane. So.. Shrugs. Fair is fair, right? Or is fair only fair when it's in someone's favor, not the others? Let the ball chopping commence!
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Agreed. They should also add a temp power that will let you get past Hurricane. I mean there's one to help see stalkers, body shield against some dmg, an EMP gllove that sometimes work, and the web and stun grenades then rarely seem to work. The temps powers they have seem to give people the option to spend a little cash to try to put you on a more equal playing field with the mix of ATs you're fighting in the field.
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Oh yeah.
They should also add a Temp Power that lets a Defender do 80% of Blaster damage in a PVP Zone and gives them native Mez Protection.
It's nice to see people who argue so passionately about some point or another. Really. But the thing is, unless you've played a Defender for some stretch of time, you shouldn't be arguing for or against Defender powers.
As it stands now, Defenders for the most part have a Secondary -their supposed Primary, which just so happens to be used just as efficiently or better by Controllers in ca. 25-30% of cases- and a Tertiary powerset -their supposed Secondary, which does pitiful damage due to Blaster whining. Every Controller can get some amount of native Mez Protection from the APPs if they so choose. Every Blaster can get several toggle-droppers into their build if they so choose.
Defenders can do any of that only situationally, and are equipped with sub-par powersets. Hurricane is one of the few gems in Defender sets, and even that is a power that is used almost as efficiently by Controllers (Defenders get a better ToHit DeBuff).
Make you a deal: You see to it that Defenders get properly balanced against Blasters and Controllers, and then you can come back and whine about a single Defender power that's causing you troubles.
Someone made an argument about 'several Hurricane users with Mez Protection from another source' (paraphrased) and how they can only be overcome by a bunch of Spines Scrappers. Counter-question? What can't be overcome by a bunch of Spines Scrappers? That's right. Shouldn't this give you more incentive to call for a nerf to Spines Scrappers instead of beating on the already battered Defenders?
Give us 80% of Blaster damage in our Secondaries instead of 65% with some occasional but generally useless increased Secondary effect.
Give us 125% Controller efficiency in our Primaries across the board. (Equates to Controllers being 80% of Defenders.)
Or otherwise, stay the hell away.
Winston Churchill