[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A person who chooses to make an Empathy Defender with all assist other powers should be able to heal me to death when going against me in a PvP zone, right? :-b
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh, that'd be a pretty cool effect, a sort of Antipathy.
An AoE that gave allies health but damaged enemies. Then you'd have to choose between heal and damage enhancements. Hmm...
[/ QUOTE ]
Heheh yeah. It would be kinda interesting. It would be a choice though which I'm always saying people should be held responsible for. If u want to be uber healer, so be it. But, you can't be uber dmg dealer if you chose Heal powers.
When PvP first came to CoH with Arena's I had the choice of throwing away my toon I've had since before the official Day 1, and making him into a PvP build which sorta spoiled what he was all about to begin with. So, instead of doing that, I said screw the Arena. The Arena was boring to me. I'd rather keep my scrapper the way he was, with the powers I liked using, instead of having to try to cookie cutter him into some build with this enhancement or that to make him into a PvP machine. Not that really was anything else to do at the time in game(and still isn't for 50s), but I didn't want to throw away the "personality" he had. The PvP zones are MUCH better than the Arenas. They're more interesting, bigger, and present a greater challenge. So I do go into Siren's Call or Warburg and have fun.
It's obvious though where there are extreme unbalances. In the quest for the devs "game balance" they made some ATs weaker to compensate for other ATs inherent weakness to certain kinds of attacks. Funny thing is, if I read about the strengths and weaknesses of each AT in the little book we get with CoH or CoV, online, or wherever, the devs are now blurring those lines where strengths and weaknesses are now supposed to be equals, but they nerf some powers which in turn over power some other powers. That's where the balancing problem lies. Hurricane as it right now is just a mess. Of course the Controller's are screaming "TROLL!" as I say this, but they were the ones screaming when MoG was perma and I could run right through their Hurricane. Devs need to do a couple of "small tweaks" I think. :-b
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, I haven't pvp'd much at all with my storm, but I don't want my pve defenses to be destroyed because someone couldn't think of a sensible solution to a problem I'm not even sure is much of an issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was my same argument when they nerfed my Regen scrapper. Everyone cried how they couldn't do this or that to me because they had no strategy to take us out. They just wanted to be able to. Turning Hurricane into a clicky with a 2 1/2 minute run time and a long recharge would equal what they'be done to the bread and butter powers of other ATs. Storm people cried about perma MoG. I cry about perma hurricane.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, I haven't pvp'd much at all with my storm, but I don't want my pve defenses to be destroyed because someone couldn't think of a sensible solution to a problem I'm not even sure is much of an issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was my same argument when they nerfed my Regen scrapper. Everyone cried how they couldn't do this or that to me because they had no strategy to take us out. They just wanted to be able to. Turning Hurricane into a clicky with a 2 1/2 minute run time and a long recharge would equal what they'be done to the bread and butter powers of other ATs. Storm people cried about perma MoG. I cry about perma hurricane.
[/ QUOTE ]
Given how easily I can solo Invinc level missions on my BS/Regen right now, I tend to think there were probably valid PvE reasons for reductions to Regen. I dont think its the primary doing all the work either.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, I haven't pvp'd much at all with my storm, but I don't want my pve defenses to be destroyed because someone couldn't think of a sensible solution to a problem I'm not even sure is much of an issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was my same argument when they nerfed my Regen scrapper. Everyone cried how they couldn't do this or that to me because they had no strategy to take us out. They just wanted to be able to. Turning Hurricane into a clicky with a 2 1/2 minute run time and a long recharge would equal what they'be done to the bread and butter powers of other ATs. Storm people cried about perma MoG. I cry about perma hurricane.
[/ QUOTE ]
Given how easily I can solo Invinc level missions on my BS/Regen right now, I tend to think there were probably valid PvE reasons for reductions to Regen. I dont think its the primary doing all the work either.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can pretty much do that with most of the builds if you're on Invinc by yourself if you play smart depending on what powers you have. For some it may take longer than others, but it's do-able. When you put it on Invinc and jack up to 8 people on the team, then it really gets funs. :-)
[ QUOTE ]
Fine with me, as soon as melee characters lose that cheap band-aid complete immunity to knockback despite a lightning bolt, a gale, a hurricane, and a tornado.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ghem... thats... part of the AT since ever, not band-aid.
Toggle dropping on it's entirety IS band-aid though. The single worst thing this game ever seen too, followed unresistable damage, to further gut all resist based sets out there.
I can knockdown an AV with the above combination, although not all the time. I've seen scrappers get knocked back through Integration if they're hit by enough knockback powers at the same time.
The complete immunity in PvP is a damned band-aid, and that's ignoring 'suppression'.
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen scrappers get knocked back through Integration if they're hit by enough knockback powers at the same time.
[/ QUOTE ]
The key is there, at the same time. It would take quiet a few players with a darn good sych to be able to land as many simulaneous knockbacks on him at once. On pve this is rare but posible because the sheer numbers of enemies usualy attacking you.
There is no imunity in PvP, only the extreme unlikelyness of you having enough knockbacks land at the same time on some one there.
As for suppression, i ponder if it even exists... i been perma feared more times than i can count. Never have i seen any supression kick in.
Run up to someone with Repel or Whirlwind active, and you'll have proof suppression works for Knockback. Hold, sleep, and disorient suppression does reset when you use a BreakFree, though.
[ QUOTE ]
There is no imunity in PvP, only the extreme unlikelyness of you having enough knockbacks land at the same time on some one there.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen five Force Fielders Force Bolt someone within a second. Whatever it is, it's a kludgy, cheap, band-aid mechanic for a single power to negate something completely through any enhancement.
[ QUOTE ]
As someone once said in a thread about Hurricane in the PvP forum, Hurricane isnt overpowered, the brains of those who want it nerfed are underpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
Amen. Hurricane is perfectly beatable in PvP. Except if you're an idiot who's tactics consist of "BLARG CHAAAAAARGE" and blindly run repeatedly into it without any form of knockback protection or a teammate to assist. My stormer can and is defeated in PvP by melee ATs. How? Because they play smart. It isn't an 'I win' button. It's a tool for weeding out the stupid.
[ QUOTE ]
Fine with me, as soon as melee characters lose that cheap band-aid complete immunity to knockback despite a lightning bolt, a gale, a hurricane, and a tornado.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, sorry, just trading the range debuff for the toggle-dropping. Getting rid of actual mechanics built into the game (as opposed to mechanics implemented to bypass engine limitations) seems like it should be a bit more expensive.
Heck, getting rid of knockback protection would get me to leave permanently, right along with removing Stamina.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Oh, I don't mind knockback protection. It just should only protect you from, you know Hurricane OR Freezing Rain OR Gale OR Tornado OR Lightning Storm OR even a combination of a couple of the above. But all of them at the same time?
Losing toggledroppers just to get some mild protection from Spines scrappers (possibly for an entire 10 seconds after they immoblize me from 30 yards) isn't exactly my idea of a fair trade.
[ QUOTE ]
That was my same argument when they nerfed my Regen scrapper. Everyone cried how they couldn't do this or that to me because they had no strategy to take us out. They just wanted to be able to. Turning Hurricane into a clicky with a 2 1/2 minute run time and a long recharge would equal what they'be done to the bread and butter powers of other ATs. Storm people cried about perma MoG. I cry about perma hurricane.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you seriously comparing perma-MOG, where the user was nigh untouchable and unmezzable for as long as they pleased to hurricane, the one quintissential stormy front line team defense power? Hurricane keeps scrappers from walking right up to me and slapping me across the face without thinking twice. It does NOT turn me into a invulnerable juggernaut of unstoppable, end regenerating destruction. Please keep in mind that both instant healing and MOG were powers originally balanced with both recharge and heavy end usage to not be usable all the time (though we got around that with heavy slotting and power choice - something they fixed with later "tweaking"). Hurricane has always been an always on first option defense for stormies.
At the very least MOG and IH allow you to overcome very nasty situations and keep on pounding through. Hurricane as a clicky would allow me to go "Oh, here, I get to actually do my job as a defender for a couple minutes!"
How would you feel if you could only use your primary attacks for two minutes out of every six?
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I don't mind knockback protection. It just should only protect you from, you know Hurricane OR Freezing Rain OR Gale OR Tornado OR Lightning Storm OR even a combination of a couple of the above. But all of them at the same time?
Losing toggledroppers just to get some mild protection from Spines scrappers (possibly for an entire 10 seconds after they immoblize me from 30 yards) isn't exactly my idea of a fair trade.
[/ QUOTE ]
Spines, Claws, all EPPs.
Also protection for ranged ATs from having attacks reduced to range zero, which would affect PVE against at least three villain groups (Cabal, Banished Pantheon, Tsoo). In exchange, you lose a broken mechanic intended for a particular type of play only a minority of the playerbase goes near...
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That was my same argument when they nerfed my Regen scrapper. Everyone cried how they couldn't do this or that to me because they had no strategy to take us out. They just wanted to be able to. Turning Hurricane into a clicky with a 2 1/2 minute run time and a long recharge would equal what they'be done to the bread and butter powers of other ATs. Storm people cried about perma MoG. I cry about perma hurricane.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you seriously comparing perma-MOG, where the user was nigh untouchable and unmezzable for as long as they pleased to hurricane, the one quintissential stormy front line team defense power? Hurricane keeps scrappers from walking right up to me and slapping me across the face without thinking twice. It does NOT turn me into a invulnerable juggernaut of unstoppable, end regenerating destruction. Please keep in mind that both instant healing and MOG were powers originally balanced with both recharge and heavy end usage to not be usable all the time (though we got around that with heavy slotting and power choice - something they fixed with later "tweaking"). Hurricane has always been an always on first option defense for stormies.
At the very least MOG and IH allow you to overcome very nasty situations and keep on pounding through. Hurricane as a clicky would allow me to go "Oh, here, I get to actually do my job as a defender for a couple minutes!"
How would you feel if you could only use your primary attacks for two minutes out of every six?
[/ QUOTE ]
My point exactly. It's all you can use against melee scrappers. So what are they supposed to use against you if they can't get close to you? Rocks? I used them all long ago! IH was Regen's defense. I get ganked constantly in PvP. Int gets dropped and I drop like a fly. From melee and from ranged attacked I can be killed. Things need to be equally fair for all in PvP. Everyone should be able to kill each other equally as much. At least that's what's balance is supposed to be like. This would include taking away the most effective bread and butter powers everyone has from being perma. Took away IH and MoG. They kept Regen's alive. Now what we have to do is spend more time micro managing our toggle and multiple clicks to stay alive. I really think Hurricane shoule be a click, bubbles, etc. Being constantly pushed away by Hurricanes I guess is as much fun as you having perma MoG get through your defenses. If I can't touch you, then it's not fair. Just like I guess it wasn't fair when I could touch you says the Stormies who complained about MoG. Clickies for all in PvP only!
[ QUOTE ]
My point exactly. It's all you can use against melee scrappers. So what are they supposed to use against you if they can't get close to you? Rocks? I used them all long ago! IH was Regen's defense. I get ganked constantly in PvP. Int gets dropped and I drop like a fly. From melee and from ranged attacked I can be killed. Things need to be equally fair for all in PvP. Everyone should be able to kill each other equally as much. At least that's what's balance is supposed to be like. This would include taking away the most effective bread and butter powers everyone has from being perma. Took away IH and MoG. They kept Regen's alive. Now what we have to do is spend more time micro managing our toggle and multiple clicks to stay alive. I really think Hurricane shoule be a click, bubbles, etc. Being constantly pushed away by Hurricanes I guess is as much fun as you having perma MoG get through your defenses. If I can't touch you, then it's not fair. Just like I guess it wasn't fair when I could touch you says the Stormies who complained about MoG. Clickies for all in PvP only!
[/ QUOTE ]
The key phrase here is "pvp only." There is no such thing as "pvp only" for such a drastic change as toggle to clicky. It would either be one way or the other. As bizarre as it would feel not to have constant access to my cane, I wouldn't be weeping at night if hurricane changed to a clicky only in pvp.
But there again, I haven't done a lot of pvp. I also don't like the idea of balancing everything for an "any AT/primary can defeat any other AT/primary" universe. Some powers and power combinations benefit the solo player more than others. Many times to a harsh degree, such as the case when you can't penetrate the hurricane. Guess what? I can't do squat against that solo controller over there! He just slapped a hold on my completely non mezz resistant defender face.
My beautiful non mezz resistant defender face.
Seriously I can understand the frustration of a foe seemingly crafted to defeat you. I haven't been on the scrapper side of that hurricane. Maybe it will seem like less of an inanity once they fix the 20 hit checks for the KB.
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone should be able to kill each other equally as much. At least that's what's balance is supposed to be like.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, its not, nor is PvP ever going to work that way. Everyone should be a threat to someone, but everyone just cant be a threat to a everyone else. PvP and PvE balance is increasingly being based on needing a team to get a well rounded amount of damage+damage mitigation.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
I fully expect you to nerf hurricane which is needed. Also fix the toggle droppers. Hurricane and things like that should be made Clickies like IH was with long recharge times(to be fair).
[/ QUOTE ]
Any change to Hurricane that affects PvE - and this one would certainly do that - would need to be compensated by a general boost to the rest of the Storm Summonning set. It already needs help in PvE.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hurricane by itself isn't an "I Win" power by ANY stretch of the imagination. You just have to use your imagination to come up with ways your character can overcome it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please dwell on this more. How would say a */Regen, */DA, or a */SR scrapper be able to overcome it?
[/ QUOTE ]
You're kidding me, right? Aside from the fact that some melee powersets get repel resistant powers, the rest of you can just queue up an attack as you jump in. The attack hits before the debuff or repel hits you, and the stormer is down half their health. Since stormer's don't have a self heal it's all but over at that point.
I can NOT believe that a melee type has the freakin' audacity to come into a squishy forum and whine about PvP. Defenders, with the lone exception of stormers, are the easiest targets in PvP. Everyone knows it, and you have the brass to come in here and kvetch about the ONE defender powerset that gives you grief. And on top of that you're too lazy to take the 10 seconds to figure out how to beat it yourself.
Well there's your freebie, now go back to the Scrapper forum and whine about how /Regen was nerfed some more.
Want to see more tilesets?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hurricane by itself isn't an "I Win" power by ANY stretch of the imagination. You just have to use your imagination to come up with ways your character can overcome it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please dwell on this more. How would say a */Regen, */DA, or a */SR scrapper be able to overcome it?
[/ QUOTE ]
You're kidding me, right? Aside from the fact that some melee powersets get repel resistant powers, the rest of you can just queue up an attack as you jump in. The attack hits before the debuff or repel hits you, and the stormer is down half their health. Since stormer's don't have a self heal it's all but over at that point.
I can NOT believe that a melee type has the freakin' audacity to come into a squishy forum and whine about PvP. Defenders, with the lone exception of stormers, are the easiest targets in PvP. Everyone knows it, and you have the brass to come in here and kvetch about the ONE defender powerset that gives you grief. And on top of that you're too lazy to take the 10 seconds to figure out how to beat it yourself.
Well there's your freebie, now go back to the Scrapper forum and whine about how /Regen was nerfed some more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it's good that you held the high ground and didn't try to discredit his position on the basis of what kind of characters he might play or something.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point exactly. It's all you can use against melee scrappers. So what are they supposed to use against you if they can't get close to you? Rocks? I used them all long ago! IH was Regen's defense. I get ganked constantly in PvP. Int gets dropped and I drop like a fly. From melee and from ranged attacked I can be killed. Things need to be equally fair for all in PvP. Everyone should be able to kill each other equally as much. At least that's what's balance is supposed to be like. This would include taking away the most effective bread and butter powers everyone has from being perma. Took away IH and MoG. They kept Regen's alive. Now what we have to do is spend more time micro managing our toggle and multiple clicks to stay alive. I really think Hurricane shoule be a click, bubbles, etc. Being constantly pushed away by Hurricanes I guess is as much fun as you having perma MoG get through your defenses. If I can't touch you, then it's not fair. Just like I guess it wasn't fair when I could touch you says the Stormies who complained about MoG. Clickies for all in PvP only!
[/ QUOTE ]
The key phrase here is "pvp only." There is no such thing as "pvp only" for such a drastic change as toggle to clicky. It would either be one way or the other. As bizarre as it would feel not to have constant access to my cane, I wouldn't be weeping at night if hurricane changed to a clicky only in pvp.
But there again, I haven't done a lot of pvp. I also don't like the idea of balancing everything for an "any AT/primary can defeat any other AT/primary" universe. Some powers and power combinations benefit the solo player more than others. Many times to a harsh degree, such as the case when you can't penetrate the hurricane. Guess what? I can't do squat against that solo controller over there! He just slapped a hold on my completely non mezz resistant defender face.
My beautiful non mezz resistant defender face.
Seriously I can understand the frustration of a foe seemingly crafted to defeat you. I haven't been on the scrapper side of that hurricane. Maybe it will seem like less of an inanity once they fix the 20 hit checks for the KB.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll wait to see what the fix to hurricane does before holding my final judgement on toggle to click. Right now it's just way too overpowerered.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fully expect you to nerf hurricane which is needed. Also fix the toggle droppers. Hurricane and things like that should be made Clickies like IH was with long recharge times(to be fair).
[/ QUOTE ]
Any change to Hurricane that affects PvE - and this one would certainly do that - would need to be compensated by a general boost to the rest of the Storm Summonning set. It already needs help in PvE.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. They should also add a temp power that will let you get past Hurricane. I mean there's one to help see stalkers, body shield against some dmg, an EMP gllove that sometimes work, and the web and stun grenades then rarely seem to work. The temps powers they have seem to give people the option to spend a little cash to try to put you on a more equal playing field with the mix of ATs you're fighting in the field.
Kid,
Look I'm sorry that Regen was nerfed. But I assure you it wasn't a storm defender that did it. I realize you are having a hard time with it, but lashing out at anything that you aren't guaranteed to beat every time you face it in PvP isn't the way to fix your issues.
Many people in this thread have brought up multiple ways to deal with hurricane. Is it good defense? Yes! But is it unbeatable? No. Otherwise I'd have a many fewer debt badges and a much better PvP rating. If you want to discuss making it a click versus toggle I'm happy to read your (and other people's) points. But every post seems to be "my regen was nerfed, so we must nerf others." Look I never spoke up in either direction during the regen nerfs, basically because I've never played a regen beyond the midteens. So I have hard time seeing why you've chosen stormers as the focus of your revenge for the nerfs. I guess all of the other defenders are too squishy and easy to beat, so you'll take on the one that stands any chance.
Sorry back to the discussion, I just had to throw this in here because the unnecessary attacks in your posts were really getting to me.
Zapping, 50 storm/elec
Rain King, 50 ice/storm
Ard, 50 NB/SR
The rest of my lineup
Justice, Freedom and Virtue Servers
www.repeat-offenders.net
Avatar by Altoholic_Monkey!
Have you tried Stun Grenading the Stormer, or using the EMP glove? I hate to actually interject logic to your nerffest, but last I checked, no solo stormer can get mez protection, and the only self-heal they can get is Life Drain or Aid Self.
[ QUOTE ]
My point exactly. It's all you can use against melee scrappers. So what are they supposed to use against you if they can't get close to you? Rocks? I used them all long ago! IH was Regen's defense. I get ganked constantly in PvP. Int gets dropped and I drop like a fly. From melee and from ranged attacked I can be killed. Things need to be equally fair for all in PvP. Everyone should be able to kill each other equally as much. At least that's what's balance is supposed to be like. This would include taking away the most effective bread and butter powers everyone has from being perma. Took away IH and MoG. They kept Regen's alive. Now what we have to do is spend more time micro managing our toggle and multiple clicks to stay alive. I really think Hurricane shoule be a click, bubbles, etc. Being constantly pushed away by Hurricanes I guess is as much fun as you having perma MoG get through your defenses. If I can't touch you, then it's not fair. Just like I guess it wasn't fair when I could touch you says the Stormies who complained about MoG. Clickies for all in PvP only!
[/ QUOTE ]
Some momentum from a travel power and a few melee attacks with Build Up is all that's required to defeat someone using Hurricane. Also, in Sirens Call you can buy Stun Grenades and lob those from out of Hurricane's range. If you still have the Confiscated Beanbag temp power, that's similarly useful. Defender and Controller HP are easy to overcome.
The only problem with Hurricane's Repel is that, as I said, it doesn't suppress when you're subjected to it continuously like KB or Holds. You can avoid being debuffed by Hurricane far more easily than any other toggle debuff because the anchor has to come to you, instead of you becoming the anchor. It's plenty easy to kite a Storm Summoner and use ranged damage and Slows to overcome them.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
Fine with me, as soon as melee characters lose that cheap band-aid complete immunity to knockback despite a lightning bolt, a gale, a hurricane, and a tornado.