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scrappers!
BAH!
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Also, I'm on your side here: Hurricane doesn't need to be nerfed.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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scrappers!
BAH!
[/ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm on your side here: Hurricane doesn't need to be nerfed.
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I don't think Hurricane needs a direct nerf, however, Repel needs suppression. If I can't Perma-Hold/Perma-KB/Perma-Fear someone, then I shouldn't be able to perma Repel someone into a corner with zero chance for escape either.
If Knockback warrants suppression, so does Repel. It's only fair.
Confusion and Phase control powers don't have suppression either, but they should be tossed into the chamber as well IMO.
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scrappers!
BAH!
[/ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm on your side here: Hurricane doesn't need to be nerfed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think Hurricane needs a direct nerf, however, Repel needs suppression. If I can't Perma-Hold/Perma-KB/Perma-Fear someone, then I shouldn't be able to perma Repel someone into a corner with zero chance for escape either.
If Knockback warrants suppression, so does Repel. It's only fair.
Confusion and Phase control powers don't have suppression either, but they should be tossed into the chamber as well IMO.
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It's possible that repel doesn't currently suppress due to the non binary nature of this particular control. A knockback is a single effect. The power knocks you back, suppression begins. A hold hits you, suppression time again. Repel is a constant state of being slightly pushed away. If you suppressed repel, it would effectively do nothing. It would basically turn all repel powers into very very weak knockback powers that don't actually put you on your rear end. I do agree that there should be some kind of suppression, but it would have to be based on your extended exposure to a continuing repel effect, and I think that might prove to be a problem in implementation.
I think that anyone should be able to wade their way through my hurricane given enough time, but that the repel should be providing me a useful amount of continued melee protection.
[ QUOTE ]
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scrappers!
BAH!
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Also, I'm on your side here: Hurricane doesn't need to be nerfed.
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oh.
what are we arguing about then?
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Actually it was more like "Can't hit without a tray full of inspirations (Perma-MoG), can't do enough damage to overcome regeneration (IH), and can't stack holds fast enough to punch through Integration."
None of which is specific to Storm, but generic to Controllers. Which I might also add, this is not the appropriate forum for.
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I'm Hami-Oed out, have Stamina, QR, Int, and IH in use in Siren's Call. What are insperations I stack up on? Purples, Greens, and a few blues. All the the things I'm supposed to need the least since I'm a Regen scrapper supposedly. That's how uber I'm not even with those supposedly "unfair" powers.
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That above quote was the ACTUAL PvP complaint at the time. ALL Scrappers use inspirations like that now, they all have lower Status Protection, they all offer less mitigation, etc etc. I think your expectations are just unreasonable, as none of those powers are "unfair" anymore. IH will still make you nigh-unkillable while it's up (though if you're held it'll only delay the inevitable) against all but the highest DPS attackers (Blasters, other Scrappers perhaps).
While you might feel that Hurricane is "unfair" to you, it is very easy to bypass given several easily available tactics, the easiest of which is to get a teamate with ranged attacks to kite and blast/mez him, only slightly more difficult being learning how to charge through it and hit with a Stun like Cobra Strike or buy the Stun Grenade temp power.
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Since I'm the one dying well slotted with IH up that kinda defeats the nigh-unkillable part. Since you're telling me I need to take this that and the other to get past hurricane I guess it sorta proves my point why I should be "changed" from it's current form. MoG is one power to get passed hurricane with a long recharge. Can't use it in SC call though. So I'm supposed to get multiple powers a collection of insperations and multiple team members to beat it??? That's my whole point of why it needs to be changed.. It's too strong. Look, I know no one wants their powers nerfed. Regen scrappers more then anyone. But to sit here and say I'm the whiner after I'm the one who got my powers nerfed because of people who whined because it defeated their power shows how no one likes to be nerfed, whether they're the pot calling the kettle black and they admit it or not. Some powers are overpowered. Of course I think they should have done other things to IH and MoG instead of what they did. I said my powers were fine when they were protecting me just like what's going on here. But the big picture is much more then what we want as opposed to what the devs want. At this point, who knows cause they can't seem to make up their mind. The elusive Balance Vision is unbalanced. Somethings obviously are a problem and the devs even stated about hurricane being like bowling pins. If they said that, then they think that there may be a problems. Reading the interview about I7 isn't very comforting. They're implementing more PvP changes to make things more "balanced". Will the devs do things to Hurricane? Possibly. If so, everyone can yell at their reasoning like Regen Scrappers and many others did when they were nerfed. Storm people can be part of the club now if nothing else.
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scrappers!
BAH!
[/ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm on your side here: Hurricane doesn't need to be nerfed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think Hurricane needs a direct nerf, however, Repel needs suppression. If I can't Perma-Hold/Perma-KB/Perma-Fear someone, then I shouldn't be able to perma Repel someone into a corner with zero chance for escape either.
If Knockback warrants suppression, so does Repel. It's only fair.
Confusion and Phase control powers don't have suppression either, but they should be tossed into the chamber as well IMO.
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It's possible that repel doesn't currently suppress due to the non binary nature of this particular control. A knockback is a single effect. The power knocks you back, suppression begins. A hold hits you, suppression time again. Repel is a constant state of being slightly pushed away. If you suppressed repel, it would effectively do nothing. It would basically turn all repel powers into very very weak knockback powers that don't actually put you on your rear end. I do agree that there should be some kind of suppression, but it would have to be based on your extended exposure to a continuing repel effect, and I think that might prove to be a problem in implementation.
I think that anyone should be able to wade their way through my hurricane given enough time, but that the repel should be providing me a useful amount of continued melee protection.
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See. I agree. Yet the faithful will argue their AT shouldn't be touched in any way shape or form. We all do it. Of course I'm the one being called the whiner and bad guy here. They're doing exactly what I did when Regen nerfs were on the way and then happened. When it's YOU, screw what everyone else says. Had the same thing going on in the scrapper forum where nonregen's were trying to justify a nerf to regen because it got past their powers in PvP. Let's see what the devs decide. I just really don't think pushing everyone around with hurricane and needing a team, insps, certain powers, "strategy" combined to overcome one power is balanced. IE: See MoG pre nerf.
Give a solution more eloquent than "remove repel from hurricane" or "turn hurricane into a click", and us Defenders might actually give a damn. However, until you either do so or explain how your Scrapper can't use the Phase Shift creep + Brawl, I think you can shove it.
Oh, and to clarify what I meant earlier about knockback, I don't want PvE knockback protection reduced or even touched. If you're willing to use a fifth of your base recovery just to run Acro, I don't care how close you can stand to a Cabal Storm Mistress.
But whether PvP knockback doesn't stack, or otherwise is completely unable to break even the weakest knockback protection, that I think needs some looking into.
I'm pretty sure I demonstrated that you only really need one ranged attacker to defeat a stormy this evening Kid 
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
scrappers!
BAH!
[/ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm on your side here: Hurricane doesn't need to be nerfed.
[/ QUOTE ]
oh.
what are we arguing about then?
[/ QUOTE ]
Nuttin'.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Cut knockback suppression to 5 seconds. 
Make PVP kb effects linger for a second or two so they're easier to stack.
Repel suppression isn't really necessary.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Hm... actually, I can deal with repel suppression in PvP. If the morons want to make themselves easy targets for ThunderClap, that's their perogative. It'd just have to be coded better than the other effects suppression, and I'm not sure if the developers even can do it well.
I wouldn't mind something like, say, after 30 seconds of a Repel effect, you're immune to it for the next 10. That'd prevent the classic Ill/Storm build from locking bad builds into place, but still leave hurricane as mostly useful. Numbers might have to be looked at a bit closer, though.
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Give a solution more eloquent than "remove repel from hurricane" or "turn hurricane into a click", and us Defenders might actually give a damn. However, until you either do so or explain how your Scrapper can't use the Phase Shift creep + Brawl, I think you can shove it.
Oh, and to clarify what I meant earlier about knockback, I don't want PvE knockback protection reduced or even touched. If you're willing to use a fifth of your base recovery just to run Acro, I don't care how close you can stand to a Cabal Storm Mistress.
But whether PvP knockback doesn't stack, or otherwise is completely unable to break even the weakest knockback protection, that I think needs some looking into.
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Ahh. There u go again. Storm's complaing about wanting to have their hurricane effect all no matter what somehow. U sound like a Regen Scrapper wanting MoG all the time now against Hurricane. Exactly why Hurricane needs to be "fixed" since we don't have MoG all the time. No Hurricane all the time. It can be you're "Oh ****" power for 2.5 mins full strength, then for 8-9 mins you have to use skill and your other powers to survive instead of just running around with Hurricane on as your only power really used.
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I'm pretty sure I demonstrated that you only really need one ranged attacker to defeat a stormy this evening Kid
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Bah. Ranged attackers are wimps! :-b
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Cut knockback suppression to 5 seconds. Make PVP kb effects linger for a second or two so they're easier to stack.
Repel suppression isn't really necessary.
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What would be cool is if someone turned on Hurricane, they'd have no control over what direction they're going. The possibly just float to the other side of the map away from battle.
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I think I can sum up his point like this
"Waaaa, Regen got nerfed in the past, I'm too lazy to tailor my build, team and tactics to counter something that presents me a challenge in PvP, and therefore I want that challenge nerfed"
I think Kid might be more comfortable playing an FPS with godmode on. That seems like about the level of thought and effort he wants to expend on facing challenges in PvP here.
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It's more like this..
Storm Controller: "Wahhh, Regen's are too strong! Nerf them so they can't get past Hurricane so easily with perma Mog!"
Regen Scrapper: "Learn how to play instead of whining, then you can beat me!"
(nerfs occur for the xth time to regen)
Storm Controller: "Yay, now I can beat you!"
Scrapper: ""Hey Devs, Hurricane is too strong now that you're nerfed melee powers to get passed it! Waahh, nerf Hurricane so it's not Perma!!"
Storm Controller: "Learn how to play instead of whining, then you can beat me!"
Hmm. Deja Vu?
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Pathetic.
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Pretty much. Oh well. Not much use trying to talk to someone like Kid on an issue like this. He's too personally tied to one powerset to have a reasonable perspective. The idea of equating an easily negated ability like Hurricane to something like the old versions of MoG or IH is so absurd I have no idea what kind of things you'd have to do to your head to think that way.
Hurricane just isnt that big a deal. When I PvP on my villains, a decent team knows who to focus fire on and eliminate quickly. Against people who know what their doing, Hurricane is about as threatening as your average kitten.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Cut knockback suppression to 5 seconds. Make PVP kb effects linger for a second or two so they're easier to stack.
Repel suppression isn't really necessary.
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What would be cool is if someone turned on Hurricane, they'd have no control over what direction they're going. The possibly just float to the other side of the map away from battle.
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What would be even cooler would be if all Regens developed cancer due to the unchecked cell growth and died.
You do notice that you haven't replied to any of the dozen of posts here that actually suggested means to overcome Hurricane, right? It would be nice if you, after serially befouling the Defender forums, would actually care to demonstrate that you're trying to do anything but try and get people riled up.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Ya know, not commenting on the validity of any such argument or anything, but it occurs to me that anytime since the release of PvP that anything was commonly decided to be overpowered (phantasms immediately come to mind), those that play with the allegedly overpowered sets or individual powers come up with a laundry list of ways to overcome them. Still, inevitably, they get nerfed anyway.
See also: Stalkers, Hurricane using Storm Controllers/Defenders, PFF using */FF Masterminds.
Mind you, Quason, I'll grant that Hurricane in and of itself is a good power. My main argument is that the state of Defenders as a whole is such that a single good power... means jack in the overall scheme of 'balance'.
As I mentioned elsewhere, they'd have had to do all the changes they did to Regen, and give Regen Scrappers Tanker damage and give them Controller HP and remove their Mez Protection to put them on a numerically balanced level with Defenders as a whole. I somehow doubt Hurricane alone outweighs all of these factors.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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Mind you, Quason, I'll grant that Hurricane in and of itself is a good power. My main argument is that the state of Defenders as a whole is such that a single good power... means jack in the overall scheme of 'balance'.
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*nod* And I can't even begin to count how many people have said this exact same thing regarding Hide and/or Assassin Strike with regard to Stalkers.
Again, not commenting on the validity of the statement... you may or may not be right, I dunno. I never PvPed with my Defender. I just know that the defensive arguments in this thread VERY strongly (almost eerily) mirror those being made by Stalker apologists.
It actually just occured to me why these two situations (stalkers and storm defenders) are so similar... in both cases, what you're talking about is the proverbial "one trick pony". It's a very common game design mechanic - you give a particular class one incredibly powerful ability, and build the entire class around that.
I never got into the whole D&D thing when I was younger, but oddly enough I've been playing quite a bit of it lately (I had to get older to fully embrace my inner nerd). The Rogue in D&D is the best example I've seen of one trick pony game design. In straight-up combat, a Rogue isn't even remotely a match for a Fighter, but if he's able to flank or sneak up on his targets, he can absolutely raise hell. However, there are situations where that doesn't work. Certain things are immune to sneak attacks, so the rogue is at a great disadvantage in those circumstances. However, when he's in his element, he's unmatched.
Similarly, Storm Defenders and Stalkers are incredibly powerful against their intended targets. A Storm Defender can completely render neuter a meleer if that meleer doesn't have anyone with him that's able to shut down the stormie. Likewise, a Stalker can wreck a team if they don't have anyone that's able to see him. However, put either of the two in a situation that's not ideal for them and they're all but worthless as they have little or nothing to fall back on.
Now, the question is whether or not the one trick pony design is a good one. Most of this whole RPG business is either homage or outright theft from D&D... it's the original. In D&D, there's no such thing as PvP. You don't have to worry about whether or not the monsters are having fun. CoX DOES have PvP, and you DO have to worry about whether or not both participating parties are having fun. Is it fun for a meleer whose being blasted at range by a Storm Defender that he's not able to retaliate against? Is it fun for someone whose busy fighting someone else to suddenly find themselves dead in one hit by a Stalker they never saw?
*shrug* That's the dilema, isn't it?
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Cut knockback suppression to 5 seconds. Make PVP kb effects linger for a second or two so they're easier to stack.
Repel suppression isn't really necessary.
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What would be cool is if someone turned on Hurricane, they'd have no control over what direction they're going. The possibly just float to the other side of the map away from battle.
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What would be even cooler would be if all Regens developed cancer due to the unchecked cell growth and died.
You do notice that you haven't replied to any of the dozen of posts here that actually suggested means to overcome Hurricane, right? It would be nice if you, after serially befouling the Defender forums, would actually care to demonstrate that you're trying to do anything but try and get people riled up.
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I did. Reread the posts about the requirements I'm asked to do. Take this power, that power, fill up on insps, and get a team. All for one power because one melee can barely touch it by itself. A little too many "requirements" for overcome one power.
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It actually just occured to me why these two situations (stalkers and storm defenders) are so similar... in both cases, what you're talking about is the proverbial "one trick pony". It's a very common game design mechanic - you give a particular class one incredibly powerful ability, and build the entire class around that.
I never got into the whole D&D thing when I was younger, but oddly enough I've been playing quite a bit of it lately (I had to get older to fully embrace my inner nerd). The Rogue in D&D is the best example I've seen of one trick pony game design. In straight-up combat, a Rogue isn't even remotely a match for a Fighter, but if he's able to flank or sneak up on his targets, he can absolutely raise hell. However, there are situations where that doesn't work. Certain things are immune to sneak attacks, so the rogue is at a great disadvantage in those circumstances. However, when he's in his element, he's unmatched.
Similarly, Storm Defenders and Stalkers are incredibly powerful against their intended targets. A Storm Defender can completely render neuter a meleer if that meleer doesn't have anyone with him that's able to shut down the stormie. Likewise, a Stalker can wreck a team if they don't have anyone that's able to see him. However, put either of the two in a situation that's not ideal for them and they're all but worthless as they have little or nothing to fall back on.
Now, the question is whether or not the one trick pony design is a good one. Most of this whole RPG business is either homage or outright theft from D&D... it's the original. In D&D, there's no such thing as PvP. You don't have to worry about whether or not the monsters are having fun. CoX DOES have PvP, and you DO have to worry about whether or not both participating parties are having fun. Is it fun for a meleer whose being blasted at range by a Storm Defender that he's not able to retaliate against? Is it fun for someone whose busy fighting someone else to suddenly find themselves dead in one hit by a Stalker they never saw?
*shrug* That's the dilema, isn't it?
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You've summed up the point I've repeatedly try to make it here and just have been name called and my point overlooked. The Devs did some good by putting Temp powers like IR and Cryonite Armor in to deal with some of the obvious weaknesses of ATs. One, those who can't see Hide unless your powerset has some ability, and two, squooshies that need need a little more shielding. For me, the stun and Web Grenades almost always miss or when they do, do nothing. The EMP Glove I've have limited success with because on occasion it seems to drain end and when it doesn't do that and make a hit, causes a little damage. I'm wondering if EMP is working as intended. As a melee I can't touch someone with Hurricane unless I follow a laundry list of thing like take this power, guzzle insps, travel power tactics, and get a team. Getting a team will still not allow ME to hit the Hurricaner, switching to yet another melee power won't do anything because well.. It's another melee power and I have to get close enough to hit but that's the whole problem I've have to begin with! Stalkers can kill me in 2 shots with Int running; one for AS and another attack right after. You can't use MoG in Siren's Call so how am I supposed to use it there? Hurricane you can use at a lower level and it dominates in SC. It needs to be made so that it is has a chance to be overcome by melee in all PvP zones other then "do a dozen things" to beat it. People complained about MoG for the same reason. I ONLY used MoG in PvP on Test in the Arenas. I hated using it before that and still don't use it to this day. It was an "Oh ****!" power that wiped you to very low HPs and many times you'd die anyway. Yet, it's BEST use was to get past bubbles and hurricanes. Only reason I used it on Test. Hurricane needs to be able to be defeated without having a full team and gobblin inps. For a Stormie to go around in Hurricane all the time and do nothing else is similiar to someone using MoG all the time. MoG was overpowered with it's ability to be made perma. Right now, Hurricane is perma. It either needs to be made a clickie so it can't be on all the time or have it's ability to always work lowered. Otherwise it's like having a Regen Scrapper with IH on all the time.
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For me, the stun and Web Grenades almost always miss or when they do, do nothing.
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Stun Grenade is actually a fantastic anti-Hurricane power, it's just that you can't enhance it, so it's always going to have the base 50% to-hit chance in PvP.
But yeah, I do get what you're saying. I think what you actually have a problem with, when you get right down to it, is the somewhat paper/rock/scissors nature of PvP. There are just some ATs/Powersets that you're probably never going to be able to beat no matter what you do. They're the rock to your scissors.
Unfortunately, the only answer anyone is able to give you is to point out the fact that it's been stated by the devs that the goal of PvP balance isn't to make every one-on-one encounter fair for both participants. That's just completely unrealistic given the huge variation in ATs, powers, and individual builds. Rather, the goal of balance is to make it so two comparable teams are going to be balanced against each other. That's far more realistic, and that's why people have been telling you that the solution to your Hurricane woes is to find a team. That's just how the game is balanced, and that's how it's going to remain balanced.
That's not to say Hurricane won't get nerfed. If we're all honest with ourselves, I think we know it will sooner or later, simply because people complain about it so damned much. As we've seen in the past, eventually the vocal minority gets its way almost invariably. The shame of it all is that, when it happens, team leaders are going to have to think long and hard about whether or not they want to invite that storm defender to their PvP team and whether or not he has anything meaningful to contribute.
But then, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
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I did. Reread the posts about the requirements I'm asked to do. Take this power, that power, fill up on insps, and get a team. All for one power because one melee can barely touch it by itself. A little too many "requirements" for overcome one power.
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I'd actually be able to empathize with this arguement if a Storm Defender could kill a Regener, even one locked into a corner.
I've had my claws/regen locked into a corner by a stormer who focused on her attacks, and still couldn't kill me within fifteen minutes, just because of integration and reconstruction. I'd hate to think what slotted IH could do.
If not having the right powers meant an instant loss, sure, then we'd have a problem. But as it is, Stormers aren't going to be 'always win' characters. They tend toward stalemates in solo.
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I'm Hami-Oed out, have Stamina, QR, Int, and IH in use in Siren's Call.
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Just curiously, why are you (playing a SCRAPPER) worried about Storm defenders in Siren's Call? Isn't that a little like my Mastermind whining that AS can one-shot me in Siren's Call?