Questions with Fallen from grace
By
CodeGuy,
Posted on: 2006-01-30 24:20 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'm hoping we can keep any badges we've already earned, since they're part of the history of the character. I'd even go further and say I hope we keep the original badge we earned. Just because a character falls or is redeemed, it doesn't change the heroic or villainous acts they did in the past. I don't think switching from hero to villain or vice versa should be a frequent occurance, though.
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The thing is several badges are titles bestowed on you by other people - Synapse's Cohort, Freedom Phlanax Reserve, etc. These ones have an alternated title (like Snyapse's Betrayer, etc.).
You really don't loose any badges - they just get new names if they change at all.
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I'm hoping we can keep any badges we've already earned, since they're part of the history of the character. I'd even go further and say I hope we keep the original badge we earned. Just because a character falls or is redeemed, it doesn't change the heroic or villainous acts they did in the past. I don't think switching from hero to villain or vice versa should be a frequent occurance, though.
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The thing is several badges are titles bestowed on you by other people - Synapse's Cohort, Freedom Phlanax Reserve, etc. These ones have an alternated title (like Snyapse's Betrayer, etc.).
You really don't loose any badges - they just get new names if they change at all.
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It's more of an RP thing, really. You still had those titles bestowed upon you by those people when you did the deed that earned you the badge. You don't become Synapse's Betrayer until later on, when you become a villain. Does that mean Synapse came along later and replaced your badge when you weren't looking?
I guess it really depends on whether you think badges earned are actual, physical badges your character is getting or if it's more like a title or reputation. In the latter case, then yeah it would make sense that your badges change over. It still seems a bit revisionist to me though, as though the character's history is changing retroactively.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
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Like I said... if you think its abusable... it's not going to happen.
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Taking bets on how long after this hits tests before someone finds a way to abuse it...
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We are still working on the system (there are a lot of corner cases), but in general:
* If you think that "doing X" while going rogue will be abusable in ANY way, you can bank on X not happening.
* If you think that "Y happening" would seriously break something, you can bank on Y not happening.
* Badges are already coded with two titles, Hero and Villain. The side you are on determines the title you get with said badge. Just because your hero was "Statesman's Pal" does not mean your villain will be. He'd more likely be "Statesman's Betrayer". Some badges have the same title across both hero and villain, some do not.
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I can forsee a lot of people switching to villians JUST so they can get the Statesman's Betrayer badge :P
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
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Well, at least no one will be jealous of Tankers 
I just really want to play an evil Warshade/Nictus.
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But i think that tanks are gonig to be jealous of brutes, they will see people with the same powersets doing more damage in a world that does not really need someone to take the excessive amount of damage the tanks role calls them to do.
I also look forward to this option because i want some of my CoH toons in the CoV world (they would have been made there if CoV existed from the start)
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Where two Accolades have the "same" power, Hero or Villain...
You can have both Accolades.
You can NOT have both Accolade powers, you lose the older one when you get the newer one.
Like I said... if you think its abusable... it's not going to happen.
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How would powers with a 25 minute recharge be abusable at all? 
Heck they're barely Usable I'm always afraid to use mine because I'm thinking "I might need it in 10 minutes or something"
Might as well say a level 50 having the accolades in a PvP lvl 50 zone is abusable because a level 45 might not have em yet...obviously I don't agree with this policy. Also couldn't anyone switch sides and get those additional accolades? So it's not like they're that abusable when anyone could get em...
Now the big question is will we be able to switch BACK to heroes after falling from grace...I'd imagine we'd lose all influence/infamy each time we switch sides. On that note would we also lose progress on badges such as Infamy gained badges? Or would the Infamy we've gained be converted to count toward the influence badge...lemme give an example for clarity:
Powerhelm has 77 million Influence. So I'm 77% of the way to the 100 Million influence badge. Now he falls from grace losing his Influence. Is he still 77% of the way to the 100 million influence/infamy gained badge? If I gain 23 Million infamy in my time as a villain do I get the 100 million infamy/influence gained badge?
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It's more of an RP thing, really. You still had those titles bestowed upon you by those people when you did the deed that earned you the badge.
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By your logic though if I fall from grace I'd still have Stateman's Pal badge...so as I'm beating Statesman like a government mule I can have my Statesman's Pal badge title on? Now THAT doesn't make RP sense. Freedom Phalanx would be pretty desperate for reserve members if a villain is a reserve member...
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But i think that tanks are gonig to be jealous of brutes, they will see people with the same powersets doing more damage in a world that does not really need someone to take the excessive amount of damage the tanks role calls them to do.
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Now THAT is a huge problem in my mind as well. There simply wouldn't be any tankers unless those players were so attached to their concepts since things like Mace aren't in CoV Brute power selection...I'd say slightly improve scrapper defense and give a good boost to tank defense. They can only keep 5 mobs taunted anyway so boosting their defense over that of Brutes, atleast in PvE would encourage Archetype Diversification...and we all know you guys love Diversification. 
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So, we obviously keep our badges when we turn good or go rogue. Here's the big question, what about accolades? It would be kind of abusable to have both hero and villain accolades (assuming villain accolades are roughly equivalent to the hero versions) so it's safe to assume they'll be taken away somehow. Do you just flag accolades X, Y, and Z as for one side only, and remove them as part of the trial?
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Where two Accolades have the "same" power, Hero or Villain...
You can have both Accolades.
You can NOT have both Accolade powers, you lose the older one when you get the newer one.
Like I said... if you think its abusable... it's not going to happen.
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So, umm, Villains are going to have access to all the same Accolade Powers as Heroes and vice verse?
Just the means to achieve them, will be different.
Or will sides have specific Accolade Powers that are unique to each side?
Let's Dance!
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It's more of an RP thing, really. You still had those titles bestowed upon you by those people when you did the deed that earned you the badge.
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By your logic though if I fall from grace I'd still have Stateman's Pal badge...so as I'm beating Statesman like a government mule I can have my Statesman's Pal badge title on? Now THAT doesn't make RP sense. Freedom Phalanx would be pretty desperate for reserve members if a villain is a reserve member...
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That just goes back to whether you think the badge is a physical object or a title. If when I rescued Statesman he gave me a medal that said 'Statesman's Pal', it makes perfect sense that I can add insult to injury while I'm kicking him around Galaxy City by wearing that medal he once gave me. He won't consider me his pal anymore obviously, but when he gave me the award I'm rubbing his nose in he did.
Same thing with the Freedom Phalanx Reservist badge. Sure, I'm not actually on their roster anymore, but I still have that badge they gave me. Being the rebellious villain, I decided not to mail it back to them when they revoked my membership. 
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
Question:
Would AT titles change?
It would seem odd to let a 'Corrupter' into Paragon. Maybe they should change the name on the UI and in other places to be 'Purifier' or something. Brutes could become Brawlers when going legit. Dominators could Seers or Enforcers, with Stalkers becoming Scouts or the like. Masterminds might be called Leaders.
I'm sure the other way there could be renaming going on. An evil tanker could be a Monster, while an evil Scrapper could be a Slayer, for example.
What do you think?
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Question:
Would AT titles change?
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No. It's been answered before. No.
The suggestion, however, is a little neat. Though, I'd still prefer to be a Stalker, even on the hero side.
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The problem is that I think side-changing will be abusable and seriously break things....
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in what way? I have a hard time thinking up ways to break the game this way....
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The problem is that I think side-changing will be abusable and seriously break things....
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in what way? I have a hard time thinking up ways to break the game this way....
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I like the idea of Stalkers being able to AS and then retreat to the safety of Hurricane.
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So does this basically mean that yes, heroes and villains will be able to change sides?
My Dominator isn't looking forward to being even less wanted on teams due to the sudden availability of Controllers at whatever level range. I love Controllers, but please, the Dominator's role so far would be completely replaced by a controller, and then some.
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How do you think the Corruptors will feel when an honest-to-goodness healzorz goes bad?
I think if switching sides ends up causing too many problems they may ditch the idea, but it's firmly on the drawing board, and a lot of players want it.
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Actually I am looking foward to seeing how it will sort out
On one hand as a healer the defender is better than the corrupter on the other you may get powples that want corrupters instead of blasters because they are more resilient and adaptable.
Would you select a scrapper against a brute? or a stalker?
Yes doms are not as good at locking mobs as controllers but wont the pet oriented controller feel diminished by masterminds?
Whatever happpens I am certain I will see post complaining that this or that AT is now worthless. This is already the situation from poeples that rely on pick up team ( wich is fine . I just dont) to play. Right now my contoller and defender are getting many invites all the time , even when they are already teamed. I seldom get them for my scrapper. On the evil side my corruptor is asked sometime but my stalker never.
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The problem is that I think side-changing will be abusable and seriously break things....
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in what way? I have a hard time thinking up ways to break the game this way....
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As was mentioned earlier, it's an issue with ATs. Why *ever* make a Dominator or Corruptor when you can just have an evil Controller or Defender? Why *ever* make a Tank when you can have a goody-goody Brute?
The ATs were balanced by "side"... when you can cross the line at will, some ATs will just get less love and play, in general.
Imagine the PvP implications! A team of 5 Brutes and 3 Empaths? A team of Controllers and Stalkers? There are a lot of things that will come out of this change, and I'm pretty sure no one has considered all of the ramifications.
I'm not even against this change, per se, but it raises a lot of issues that need to be carefully thought out by the devs.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
I think it would be even more neat if we were able to switch our hero characters to somewhat match the villain ones. Say I switch my Kat/Regen to Villain side, like he would then be a lvl 50 Ninjitsu/Regen stalker. Same for brutes. It be a little difficult for MM's, Corruptor's, and Dom's though. Would still be cool though.
in what way? I have a hard time thinking up ways to break the game this way....
Neither PvP nor PvE were balanced for cross-AT play. Villain ATs will make a sick joke out of a lot of CoH missions and such, and the same will be true of the other side.
And I don't even want to think about the consequences for PvP. Just adding Empaths to the villain ATs will make the whole thing go nonlinear.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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The problem is that I think side-changing will be abusable and seriously break things....
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in what way? I have a hard time thinking up ways to break the game this way....
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As was mentioned earlier, it's an issue with ATs. Why *ever* make a Dominator or Corruptor when you can just have an evil Controller or Defender? Why *ever* make a Tank when you can have a goody-goody Brute?
The ATs were balanced by "side"... when you can cross the line at will, some ATs will just get less love and play, in general.
Imagine the PvP implications! A team of 5 Brutes and 3 Empaths? A team of Controllers and Stalkers? There are a lot of things that will come out of this change, and I'm pretty sure no one has considered all of the ramifications.
I'm not even against this change, per se, but it raises a lot of issues that need to be carefully thought out by the devs.
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Why would I play a Corruptor or Dominator instead of a Controller or Defender?
Because the Dominators and Corruptors are the ATs I would rather play? Now, I don't see me playing Stalkers much, hero or villain, and definitely brutes more than tankers. But I would prefer playing a Corruptor to a Defender OR a Blaster. I would LOVE to have an Electricity/Storm Corruptor.
Yes, theoretically it is possible to have balance issues with this, but the idea of Assasinate/Hurricane or Tank/Corruptor or Dominator/Scrapper combos are way too neat to not have them.
Hero ATs are specialized, and do not adapt well. Villains are built upon adaptability and self reliance.
Tankers are better at tanking that brutes. Brutes are better tanks than scrappers. If you need a meat shield, you're going to pick the tanker.
Defenders on villain teams are the reason you'd NEED a defender on the villain team. Laughable defender damage means your fights are lasting long enough to necessitate a marginally better suport set than what your corrupter would have been doing. With the corruptor, you wouldn't have needed that extra 10% because the enemy would be dead already.
Scrappers are much better sustained damage dealers than stalkers, but require more support to do it efficiently. Stalkers are frontloaded, Brutes are backloaded, Scrappers are just loaded.
Controllers could replace dominators and corruptors only if you didn't actually need to HURT anything.
Blaster damage insterted into an environment without dedicated support for it could end badly. Corrupters live longer than two hits, but deal less damage.
All in all the "This will break the game" argument is shortsighted and not well thought out IMHO. IIRC the Arena now supports hero&villain teams. This might be a good reason to actually use the arena, to test some of these theories.
It'd be neat to see some undercover missions, where heroes pretend to be villains in a story arc or two.
FireWild - lv 50 Fire/Fire Blaster (Justice)
FyreWyld - lv 40 Energy/Energy Brute (Justice)
... and way too many others
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Controllers could replace dominators and corruptors only if you didn't actually need to HURT anything.
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I was pretty much with you up until here. My Gravity and Illusion Controllers can contribute just as much damage as my Mind Dominator, once you factor in buffs/debuffs and Containment. As an added bonus, the Controller buffs/debuffs can help the whole group. That doesn't mean Controllers are out of balance, though. It means that Dominators need a buff. I see no reason why they have such a low base damage when they can't buff/debuff and their base controls are less than Controllers.
ps: Why do I include Containment and not Domination? Because Containment is very easy to apply consistantly. Domination is only up a comparitively small amount of time. Dominators with Domination up are very good. The rest of the time they're underpowered, in my opinion.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
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Positron can you at least tell us what the level requirement for the change over will be. That way we can at least get some toons up to that level to test this as soon as it goes to test server. ...<snip>
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Yeah, this is a particular insterst of mine. I have a hero whose back-story I really like, but I realized as I role-palyed her that she would work better as a villain (she's addicted to superadine). I'd liek to have her "go rogue", but she's still fairly low level...
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Scrappers are just loaded.
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Give 'em the breathalyzer!!!!
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Controllers could replace dominators and corruptors only if you didn't actually need to HURT anything.
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I was pretty much with you up until here. My Gravity and Illusion Controllers can contribute just as much damage as my Mind Dominator, once you factor in buffs/debuffs and Containment. As an added bonus, the Controller buffs/debuffs can help the whole group. That doesn't mean Controllers are out of balance, though. It means that Dominators need a buff. I see no reason why they have such a low base damage when they can't buff/debuff and their base controls are less than Controllers.
ps: Why do I include Containment and not Domination? Because Containment is very easy to apply consistantly. Domination is only up a comparitively small amount of time. Dominators with Domination up are very good. The rest of the time they're underpowered, in my opinion.
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Actually, that's a really good point I hadn't considered. The containment damage buff is quite good! I think the general design here seems that the intent of dominators is backloaded super-controllering, coupled with respectable damage output. Might need to adjust it. IIRC domination doesn't affect the secondary as current. If Cryptic does perceive it as an unfair imbalance with the AT as a whole, and not specific powerset combos, I'd say applying domination damage buffs to the dominator's secondary might be a start at explaining why they're different/still useful to someone with your opinion/experience. Of course, that may actually overpower them, and is why it wasn't designed that way in the first place.
This also brings up one of the only real "reliance" factors with villains: Assassination
Stalkers don't rely on holds and sleeps, as evidenced by the extremely limited ability to inflict them. I've got a single hold power (Blinding powder) that *might* hold, but is ultimately more useful as a placate/confuse effect, as that hold goes away once the target is struck. That's ninjitsu, I don't seem to remember any other hold/sleep attacks in the other sets, but I'd have to go over them again.
However, the benefit to stalkers from holds is twofold. Numbers kill stalkers. It's not the two bosses, it's the eight minions. Those eight minions are more likely to be mezzed than the bosses with the AoE mez, and the bosses are going to be the logical targets for the single mez. Either way, the stalker saves on placates, and increases damage output via criticals.
That said, I think you might be on to something about the nonutility of dominators vs. corruptors when you factor in containment, as when you add a stalker or two to the mix you've greatly increased the team damage advantage the controller brings vs. the dominator.
However, I'd like you to keep in mind the number of attack powers avaliable to the dominator. A dominator can do just as much damage to a field of free foes as a few held foes, and when you bump up the difficulty a few notches that versatility becomes apperant, as the practiced dominator has the ability to hold down half of the foes, and obliterate the other half, while the controller's containment damage is limited to those foes on which the holds actually stick.
Is it totally balanced? I think so, but that's really Cryptic's job to decide. It's a tricky thing that can't be calculated in pure DPS or any other hard numbers as it concerns flexible team dynamics. I think that's why threads like these exist, to help sort out if there's an overarching feel that something is definately broken.
Maybe I could get some more vets with lots of controller/dom experience to chime in on this?
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So, we obviously keep our badges when we turn good or go rogue. Here's the big question, what about accolades? It would be kind of abusable to have both hero and villain accolades (assuming villain accolades are roughly equivalent to the hero versions) so it's safe to assume they'll be taken away somehow. Do you just flag accolades X, Y, and Z as for one side only, and remove them as part of the trial?
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Where two Accolades have the "same" power, Hero or Villain...
You can have both Accolades.
You can NOT have both Accolade powers, you lose the older one when you get the newer one.
Like I said... if you think its abusable... it's not going to happen.
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Well personally i find the whole concept abusable really.
First off, if you want a hero, make one, want a villian make one. I dont see what is gained by doing this. Infact this is really the biggest Powerleveling gimick of all time in my view. I have 4 level 50 heroes. With this i can over night have 2 level 50 villians. Atleast with wolfs, ninjas, kora fruit etc, you needed to find a team, hell even winter lords were slower then that.
But that aside, im kinda curious about power sets. Cause frankly when controlers, blasters, and defenders, start moving into villian status, to me corruptors and dominators are dead in the water. Why would you want to be some gimped blasters or defender if you could be the real thing, controlers have better durations and better debuffing and buffing then dominators. Basicly to me corruptors and dominators are really not quite as strong at there individual sets as the COH equivlent is. So suddenly every VG will want a real defender for their teams, or real ice/energy blsters, or controlers with containment and fireball etc.
Over all i would have to say at this time, i hope this actually never, ever sees the light of day on the live servers. The villains and heroes were contructed differently, this bleeds that together and is just going to lead to over all more "adjustments" to powers and game mechanics we will all end up complaining about later.
* If you think that "doing X" while going rogue will be abusable in ANY way, you can bank on X not happening.
* If you think that "Y happening" would seriously break something, you can bank on Y not happening.
The problem is that I think side-changing will be abusable and seriously break things....
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"