Devs: Any hope for the flight pool?
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-23 09:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I personally find it ridiculous that Super Leap is faster than Fly. How can someone hop up and down faster from point A to point B than someone flying in a straight line? Sad.
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Physics my boy! The hopping person need only get a greater horizontal velocity than the flying guy. Granted this would require much more work but it is physically possible. Perhaps people who fly are just lazy?
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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My view on hover/fly, speaking as someone who has leveled to 50 with each of the main travel powers essentially exclusively at least once, but now is a die-hard flier, is this:
Fly as a travel power should have end cost no higher than natural end recovery. I wouldn't mind if you were required to turn every toggle off to break even on flight, but flight should not draw more than that, or else its end cost penalty is simply too high as a travel power - it *should* be usable to cross zones without having to stop to rest or accidentally fall out of the sky.
Hover should never replace fly, but you ought to be able to keep it on during combat and follow your team. That would imply that its unslotted speed should be comparable to normal running speed without sprint, and its 3-slotted speed should be comparable to 1-slot sprint or thereabouts.
Once upon a time, the devs decreed that flight had massive advantages over other travel power because of the vertical freedom of motion. One by one those advantages have been nullified as the devs have decreed that those very advantages were *too* advantageous. So hover/fly can't pull you off of patches because that's "unfair" and so most patches have -fly (but of course, no patch has -teleport). Hover/fly can keep you away from villains who don't have ranged attacks, so now virtually all do (but super jump can escape from them faster than flight). Basically, most of the advantages of flight have been decreed to be too advantageous, and reduced or eliminated. But flight's costs haven't been similarly reevaluated.
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
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I think a lot of people would like it if it were faster than unslotted sprint with three flight speed SOs.
As for effective at travel, Combat Jumping + Hurdle can already do this to a point. Getting Hover to where it can work about as well shouldn't break anything. Not saying as fast, but it really should be better than sprint, especially with slots invested.
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It should be as fast as spritn + swift tops, IMHO. Dont know how fast that is though, but it shoud also be at least as fast unsloted as just walking, maybe just a bit slower.
Opinions aside, Positron once told me on a PM that Hover reaching Flight speed once six sloted WAS by design, not by coincidence.
ED broke that design.
How about making it the same with 3 slots, or heck, make it so that 6 slots under ED will yield unsloted flight, as was the original design intention.
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Goodness people. You do realize this is a game right? I've been claiming for years that flight was too slow, especially when I discovered a buddy of mine with SR and no travel power went faster than I did with 6 SO fly. But cut them some slack please. You have made your points, they are looking into it, and if they feel something needs to be changed, it will be.
This is reminding me of all those anti-ED posts that people made. Goodness...
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Well, MAYBE, if this gets enough support, the recently generous devs will see that a number of people are begging for this, will feel pity for us, and want to help us in our time of need... I say let everyone encourage this one, so that the devs might take a look at how stinking slow hover, in peticular, is. I'd be happy if Hover were increased.. Fly is at a reasonable speed, but hover needs some serious attention.. ED gave it a -33% speed, and for all intents and purposes, It was a bit slow even with 6 SOs in it...
Please consider this one.. Fly/hover is, and has been one of the slowest powers of the game, and It could use a small gesture of buffage... Please?
*gets on hands and knees to beg statesman, and the others*
Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I thought this was a pretty darn good idea.
Make flight speed enhancers Schedule D, so that you get a 60% buff, and then I think most flyers' woes will go away.
I wholeheartedly agree that flight pales in comparision to it's other travel pools.
1. It is the only travel power that cannot meet it's cap with enhancements.
2. Even "capped" via buffs, etc, still isn't as fast as other travel powers.
3. It provides horizontal and vert movement, but so do SJ and TP, both sucking less end and SJ being as "fast" as flight and Teleport being (lag excluding) being considered the fastest from point A to point B.
4. SS d/n have vert movement, but it offers a stealth aspect, is faster than Fly, and uses less end, and is faster.
5. SS and SJ stack with other powers (sprint being available to EVERYONE as an inherent power and stackable with BOTH SS and SJ, and both stacking with powers from the fitness pool (SS with swift, SJ with hurdle) -- hover (and fly) stack with neither.
So it is in comparision to other powers that I argue that hover/fly should be looked at as they are inferior relative to their counterparts.
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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2 direct points here:
Hover: I want this to be as viable in PvP and PvE as sprint+swift, or cj + hurdle. I would be willing to invest an additional power slot in fitness to get this. I have a toon with the flight pool who will be dropping it at 25 when it begins pvp, because there is absolutly no advantage over the other modes of non travel power movement. I want to be competative with hover, nothing more.
Fly: Others have covered this, but fly provides the least survivablity for the highest end cost, AND requires micromanaging between it and hover. Superspeed provides stealth and the best horizontal movement. SJ provides vertical and horizontal escape at faster rates than fly can get in either direction, as well as being the least likely to be slowed in both PvP and PvE. Teleport provides the best speed, and a quick way to drop rad toggles, at the expense of high end (but not higher than fly). Fly provides the advantage that no verticle obstical is too high, a feature shared with teleport, at a very, very high end cost.
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(I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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Sorry to double post, but this made me think of an important question. After 30+ days of the jingle jet, did you feel overpowered with a low cost flight?
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If nothing else, please please lower the endurance cost.
There is really no reason for fliers to have to stop and rest halfway across a zone.
While your at it, take a look at teleport's cost also? Both have been out of proportion with super speed and super jump since release, and it just doesn't make much sense...
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It makes sense THEMATICALLY.
It doesn't make sense FUN-WISE.
The fact that Fly's end cost is slightly more than base end recovery is rediculous. One toggle, and a travel at that, should not sap you of endurance simply if you forget to turn it off for a minute while you're waiting for the team to show up at the door of the mission.
Combine that with the fact that it's teh slowest travel power, well, that's just a kick to the shins. Change one. Either one would make me happy.
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Goodness people. You do realize this is a game right? I've been claiming for years that flight was too slow, especially when I discovered a buddy of mine with SR and no travel power went faster than I did with 6 SO fly. But cut them some slack please. You have made your points, they are looking into it, and if they feel something needs to be changed, it will be.
This is reminding me of all those anti-ED posts that people made. Goodness...
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ED brought many things. Silence. Placation. Lies. Hypocracy. Now, more Spin. Not Goodness. One of the casualties in the ED experiment was Hover and Statesman all but admitted this 3 months ago when he claimed he was going to discuss the issue with geko.
Just what were the results of his discussion? Could this development team even fathom making Travel Powers exempt from ED? Do they have any idea how much morale would be improved if a 6-slotted Hover could retain I5 utility? Do they even care? Does Castle really think Hover was 6 slotted to be a Travel Power?
No, I don't feel Goodness. I feel SHAME.
It's a SHAME that "combinable HO's" was touted as compensation for ED - when anyone who wasn't asleep remembers HOs should have been made combinable when they were nerfed last summer - or NLT I5.
It's a SHAME how much disinformation is being spread about why this game underwent 3 huge nerfs in a row.
It's a SHAME that it's been about 12 weeks since Statesman said he'd discuss the 6-slot Hover issue with geko and there is STILL no announcement of the result of that discussion, nor a base increase to this power to compensate what ED needlessly did to it.
It's a SHAME there hasn't been ANY adjustment specifically addressing powers that use only one type of enhancement.
It's a SHAME there's still no newspaper missions in CoH, the ability to cancel missions, and few words on what's being planned for I7 or beyond.
It's a SHAME it takes an act of revolt on the boards to get any acknowledgement for major bugs (like the sound looping issue) or reversal of unsound changes in this game. (eg. CoV first Respec SF, stealth nerf to Stealth).
It's a SHAME the war on PLing and herding continues unabated while long overdue features and bugs take a number behind anything sidelining the Vision(tm).
It's a SHAME how this game's KNOWN ISSUE lists and Patch Notes mechanisms are still unexcusably broken.
It's a SHAME it took 4 issues to FINALLY deal with that TERRIBLE, risk vs reward exploit in PvE with the Travel Power Suppression compromise.
It's a SHAME that many powers haven't been readjusted to a non-perma Hasten/Stamina assumption; since ED essentially removed Hasten and Stamina's previous effectiveness to the powers that were adjusted with a 6-slotted assumption.
It's a SHAME that after 2 years, many players have not only hit the wall ... they've been writing on it for months. What did it get them? Nerfed HOs. Nerfed defenses. ED. PvP balance? CityOfHero? Issues and content slowed to 3 times a year?
No ... Goodness wouldn't have been the first word that comes to mind.
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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Uh, woah there. Arent we forgetting Group Flight? Why does this power still have an accuracy penalty instead of supression? It completly neuters my mastermind if I want to chase after a flying hero with my bots in tow.
Yeesh. He meant goodness as in the same use of "Gosh" or "Golly Gee, Batman! The Joker is one bad son of a [expletive]!" Let's keep the thread on topic, here. ¬_¬
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I certainly hope they do something with flight speeds. Thanks to ED, players no longer have the option of maxing out their flight speeds - it's impossible to hit the cap now. Really takes a big bite out of Hover as well. Considering the insane movement ability one can get out of Combat Jumping/Super Leap and Hurdle, taking the alternate approach of slotting the heck out of Hover shouldn't be penalized.
Statesman did say they were looking at doing something for Hover/Fly way back when ED first hit. It's anyone's guess when they'll get fixed, though. From what I've gathered, these changes take months to implement internally with all the multitasking going on.
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Earlier it was stated that travel powers were overlooked regarding ED and that they would be looked at. I since have pm'd Statesman regarding this and got two responses neither of which were particularly encouraging. He never said it wouldnt be looked at just that it hadnt been looked at.
I enjoyed six slotted hover immensely. It made battles fun. The base speed of flight and hover should seriously be boosted.
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Yeesh. He meant goodness as in the same use of "Gosh" or "Golly Gee, Batman! The Joker is one bad son of a [expletive]!" Let's keep the thread on topic, here. ¬_¬
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That, and I did jump the gun. I appologise to people for unnecessarily bringing hostility to this thread.
For fly - the speed at 50 is fine (with 3 SO's)
At 14 its not so good.
Maybe keep the cap as is, and just reduec the scaling downwards with level would overcome some of the issues.
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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WOW! Just knowing and issue is an issue is pretty sweet. I had Hover 6 slotted for speed and Flight was also maxed out for speed. Hover never made a great outdoor travel power but is was good for tactical movement in missions. I really would like to look forward to getting a small boost to Hover. Getting a boost to Flight would definately be awesome.
One thing however, since we are on the issue of the Flight Pool, what about the issues involving Group Fly. Its very clumbsy to use for Masterminds right now and using it on teams aggrovates teammates who do not want to fly, and they have very valid reasons for not wanting to! The worst thing you can do to a teammate is give them a travel buff they don't want and that's no small deal.
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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Have you actually used regular flight with big melee attacks? The suppression usually is just a second or so after the attack hits and then you are zooming off.
Hover is totally useless right now.
Still here, even after all this time!
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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Hmm. If it could pulse for 30-60 second duration flight in an AOE around you, you could zip in and out of direclty around the caster.
That would make it useful.
It can be fun to whip it out sometimes as peopls go "they have group flight?"
Dang, forgot to head to atlas to help people get the Top Dog badge.
WOW! Just knowing and issue is an issue is pretty sweet. I had Hover 6 slotted for speed and Flight was also maxed out for speed. Hover never made a great outdoor travel power but is was good for tactical movement in missions. I really would like to look forward to getting a small boost to Hover. Getting a boost to Flight would definately be awesome.
One thing however, since we are on the issue of the Flight Pool, what about the issues involving Group Fly. Its very clumbsy to use for Masterminds right now and using it on teams aggrovates teammates who do not want to fly, and they have very valid reasons for not wanting to! The worst thing you can do to a teammate is give them a travel buff they don't want and that's no small deal.
Still here, even after all this time!
Devs = Anti-Flightites
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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What about flight posture?
Any comments on that people that wants to fly while standing up like the Cabal witches? or in different stances like meditating, etc.?
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Goodness people. You do realize this is a game right? I've been claiming for years that flight was too slow, especially when I discovered a buddy of mine with SR and no travel power went faster than I did with 6 SO fly. But cut them some slack please. You have made your points, they are looking into it, and if they feel something needs to be changed, it will be.
This is reminding me of all those anti-ED posts that people made. Goodness...
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Also keep in mind States' argument from day one against buffing fly was its vertical ability/control. While superjump has vertical it isn't quite as refined as fly. :\
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Amen... sista? brotha? Who knows these days... If hurdle + combat jumping can get me moving as fast as superspeed, then hover should be good for something. Or reduce the god awful endurance drain on Fly. I can handle the supression during battle, but man the endurance drain is ginormous.
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Sista, and I don't think Hurdle + CJ can match superspeed. 
It is pretty fast, though. Hover should be slower because it has full z-axis movement, but it shouldn't be as slow as it is.
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Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I thought this was a pretty darn good idea.
Make flight speed enhancers Schedule D, so that you get a 60% buff, and then I think most flyers' woes will go away.
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I suggested that when CoV was still in beta. Good luck, though. It's probably a workable idea.
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Goodness people. You do realize this is a game right? I've been claiming for years that flight was too slow, especially when I discovered a buddy of mine with SR and no travel power went faster than I did with 6 SO fly. But cut them some slack please. You have made your points, they are looking into it, and if they feel something needs to be changed, it will be.
This is reminding me of all those anti-ED posts that people made. Goodness...
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Ugh, excuse me. It's my turn on the soapbox. 
But the Flight Pool in general is in a pretty sad state. AS is a great attack, but Hover is too slow for any real effective level of use, and there are so many -Fly attacks in PVP that more than half the time you're going without a travel power at all. I don't really mess with Group Flight, but I'm sure it has its own pitfalls.
Castle, for all that is holy, please give a timeframe one when Flight will become viable as a travel power, or at least as viable as the other options out there.
Perhaps it's not a problem with fly itself so much as fitness pool interaction?
After all CJ + hurdle = all the supression free jump you need in pvp situations with minimal slotting. It's the travel power of choice for many of my friends too for this very reason.
Swift mixes with other ground pounding speed powers for more effect.
Yet from what I've gathered swift doesn't effect fly right? So if we can't (despite the fact they both really need one) buff hover or fly itself. Why not just let sprint and swift stack for more speed?
Total left field idea here, but what if swift (god knows how much coding this might take though) could be slotted with fly speed enhancers? Or just give a flat out bonus to it the same as running speed?
More choice is always better then less after all. ^_-