Devs: Any hope for the flight pool?
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-23 09:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
From what a guildie tells me, if you SO 3 slot hurdle and superjump you're moving at the same speed as someone using superspeed. From my experience with each being single slotted, I can believe them.
Also, for fly, if I remember right it did use to stack with Swift. I remember taking Swift on a scrapper who had fly, and suddenly seeming to fly faster than someone who had only Fly by itself. Same seemed to be true, once again if I remember right, with Superspeed+Swift+Sprint stacking.
Final comment, a prediction, what will probably come from the discussion with Geko is this: Instead of fixing fly, they'll nerf hurdle and swift so that they do not stack with superspeed and superjump/combat jump.
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Final comment, a prediction, what will probably come from the discussion with Geko is this: Instead of fixing fly, they'll nerf hurdle and swift so that they do not stack with superspeed and superjump/combat jump.
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Even though neither of these is particularly harmful, and picking hurdle instead of an attack or defense is a real (if not huge) cost. It doesn't really matter so much in the later game when you have superleap.
For the record, someone earlier said that flight was the only travel power that improves as you level - I'm sure that super jump does as well. My 50th level leaper can manage much longer jumps than she could at 27th (when she had SOs slotted in hurdle and superjump).
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Yeah, flight is painfully slow without SO's. I have a level 48 scrapper with it 3-slotted, a level 24 defender with it 4-slotted, and a level 14 brute with just an endurance reducer in it. (Because, face it, I don't just want to fly, I want at least SOME ranged or smashing/lethal defense running at the same time. Stupid flying enemies/snipers.) The scrapper is fine, and the defender is fine now that she has SO's, but the brute might as well run because she's faster that way. And when I switch from the scrapper to the brute...yowch. It feels like I'm traveling with Hover.
1-slotted Swift + 3-slotted Sprint, with DO's, is faster than one-slotted flight in the teens, and keeps pace with 2-slotted flight. This is including time it takes to navigate obstacles like staircases and walls. (I'm in a duo and we use those respective powers.) Once we got to SO's, yes, I was slower, but not by much.
Endurance useage...it's just silly for a travel power to cost more than base endurance regen. My brute still runs most places and only uses Fly to clear walls because otherwise she'd reach missions with only half of her endurance--less, if I was running any defensive toggles.
My defender couldn't run fly and PFF (or Dispersion Bubble) together for very long until she picked up stamina. It's annoying for travel, and for missions when Hover just isn't fast enough to get Dispersion Bubble repositioned when a fight shifts.
To go to an extreme example, my scrapper (BS/SR) can fight almost indefinitely with all three SR toggles up as long as she doesn't use Whirling Sword too often. But it takes 4-slotted Stamina and an endurance reducer in both Fly and Evasion to just break even running all four while I'm NOT fighting. Toggle managing is one thing at level 14. Needing to do it at 46 was ridiculous.
Oh, and I do use Fly in combat with her, in short spurts or when I've got Elude or Conserve Power running. She doesn't have ranged attacks or Hover, so when enemies fly off (Freaks are notorious for it, as is Diabolique), I need to be able to catch them. Hover wouldn't be fast enough anyway; those enemies move at full flight speed for no endurance cost.
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For the record, someone earlier said that flight was the only travel power that improves as you level - I'm sure that super jump does as well. My 50th level leaper can manage much longer jumps than she could at 27th (when she had SOs slotted in hurdle and superjump).
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Swift increases as you level, as well.
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For the record, someone earlier said that flight was the only travel power that improves as you level - I'm sure that super jump does as well. My 50th level leaper can manage much longer jumps than she could at 27th (when she had SOs slotted in hurdle and superjump).
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Swift increases as you level, as well.
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Well, yes. I meant superjump the travel power rather than hurdle and swift the travel buffs. 
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It's a SHAME it took 4 issues to FINALLY deal with that TERRIBLE, risk vs reward exploit in PvE with the Travel Power Suppression compromise.
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Great post, but is this one sarcasm?
I never understood the claims that jousting gave an advantage in PvE. I did it a few times early on and noticed that they got a melee attack on me just as I got one on them, and they got to hit me at least once per pass with a ranged attack too.
When supression hit, someone said something about people soloing Countess Crey using jousting. What I didn't get was, jousting caused a MASSIVE hit in DPS, to the point that I don't believe anybody that claims they could beat the Countess' health regeneration while doing it. Meanwhile, I soloed her during this period while standing right in front of her, barely beating her health regen with a near constant attack chain.
Can someone explain to me how jousting could be used to give any significant advantage in PvE?
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Not to toot my own horn or anything, but I thought this was a pretty darn good idea.
Make flight speed enhancers Schedule D, so that you get a 60% buff, and then I think most flyers' woes will go away.
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I suggested that when CoV was still in beta. Good luck, though. It's probably a workable idea.
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I seem to remember someone doing some testing a ways back, and determining that flight speed enhancements in Hover were insanely high. Like, an SO was +200% or something.
Think about how slow base hover is. When 6 slotted hover matched flight, there is NO way that was only 3 times base hover.
Edit: Sevael's Hover Speed Guide, though it isn't working for me at the moment, so...
Here is the google cache, and the important excerpt:
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Hover's base speed is only 1.3 yards per second (2.66 miles per hour). However, each Training Origin enhancement added increases the base speed by 41.67%. Dual Origins increase the speed by 83.33%, and Single Origins increase the speed by a whopping 166.67%. These are for even-level (white) enhancements. Each level higher or lower than your fighting level in a Flight Speed enhancement increases or decreases that enhancement's effectiveness by 9%. For example, a +3 Flight Speed SO will increase Hover speed by 211.67%; a -3 SO will increase Hover speed by 121.67%.
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
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It would be nice if you could use it in fights to keep up with your team mates and pursue mobs, also when you are a meleeist.
Why should aerial combat be the exclusive domain of those with ranged attacks? Those with melee attacks wants to be able to use some kind of "combat flight" too... 
ACcording to TopDoc's Movement Guide, the enhancements in Hover enhance the base flight speed (different fromt he base Fly speed!) which is 21 feet per second. Hover is very slow because there is a penalty applied to its movement after flight speed is enhanced.
So one possibility to make Hover more usefull would be to simply remove this penalty.
2 inf:
I have zero experience with SJ or SS, so I won't waste time with assumptions. We all know what happens when you spout off with no frame of reference.
I think that the best overall suggestion I've seen that's likely to both fit the vision, and address issues players have with fly is to bump travel speed enhancers down to schedule 4. Another that I really like/makes sense is that flight's base end cost should=the base end recharge. As far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong) No other single toggle is capable of sapping your bar all by itself. Why is fly an exception? Now, I know that as per Statesman powers aren't adjusted around PvP. That said, PvP is where you're going to see the best of what fly has to offer. My blaster's got flight, and I couldn't imagine PvPing without it. For ranged attackers, fly allows any vector of attack to be chosen, typical ranged attackers are able to take advantage of fly/hover to attack from outside the range of most -fly powers, and in the case of a snipe, get moving pretty darn quickly. I think the reason there ARE so many powers with a -fly component is because of the utility of fly, however as it currently stands the end/speed issues could probably use a look.
There's also been a little bit of talk about looking at the end cost of teleport. My Stalker has teleport, which I took mainly for thematic reasons, but have come to love for escape ability in both PVE and PVP. I haven't invested a single slot in my teleport, just stuck an END reducer in it and called it a day. Teleport's ability to get around immobilize and slow effects validate its end cost. The only way I could see a balanced end reduction to teleport would be to remove that ability, and hence remove the only "niche" teleport has, as otherwise, compared to other travel powers it's pretty horrible. You can't chase anything with it, as it roots you (in midair) both before and after the teleport. Additionally, teleport is hands down the most difficult travel power to use, as you're limited to either a ~100 yard hop, or rooting for a few seconds on a solid surface (wall, ground, etc.) Again, I have no experience with SJ or SS, so I'm relying on reports from those that do have that experience, and I've yet to find a single person state differently. Still, for the immobilize escape and the instantaneous travel, it's well worth its pitfalls. Especially at lower levels when you don't have many options for mez resistance, or a bunch of tray room for breakfrees.
Hopefully we'll see some sort of change in the near future, and hopefully Cryptic will continue the recent tactic of buffing as a fix rather than nerfing.
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ACcording to TopDoc's Movement Guide, the enhancements in Hover enhance the base flight speed (different fromt he base Fly speed!) which is 21 feet per second. Hover is very slow because there is a penalty applied to its movement after flight speed is enhanced.
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Ooh, thanks. This makes a lot more sense than the crazy values put forth by the other guy.
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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We just need a bit more speed, that's all. As far as Flight goes, not a dramatic buff to speed, but enough to make it just as attractive as a travel power when compared to Super Speed or Super Jump.
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
[/ QUOTE ]Heck, I'd be happy with it just being an effective movement power.
I think the idea on the boosts we're seeking are not nearly as dramatic as some may think (while there are a few exceptions of course). I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for Hover to be at least as fast as a single-slotted Swift+Sprint with 3 flight speed SO's in it...
Here's a thought...
How about hover, 3 SO slotted for flight speed, be able to reach the same speed as a single SO slotted sprint... Furthermore, allow Swift to be slotted with flight speed enhancements as well as the run speed enhancements it currently can be slotted with, with benefits being the same for each.
This would mean:
Single SO slotted Sprint= X speed
3 SO slotted Hover= X speed
wherein X is the same value for both numbers
Swift with 1 run enhancement= +Y speed
Swift with 1 flight enhancment= +Y speed
wherein Y is the same value for both numbers
It costs more overall to achieve the same effect, however that's fair considering Hover has vertical movement. all the same, it's not really that much faster than it is now... just faster enough, which is, of course, the point.
This will allow Hoverers the ability to keep up in combat for pursuit purposes, or in general movement on maps with teamates (I have a few concept toons that are always in Hover mode- one never touches the floor).
As far as flight itself goes, while it's slower than most other "travel" powers out of the box, the consistent vertical movement still keeps it in the "worthwhile" category.
I imagine the relatively small boost it would recieve if Swift were slottable with flight speeds would be enough to give it that extra "oomph" that fliers are looking for. After all, Super Jump, and Super Speed both benefit from Swift.. why not Fly?
Doing that would also get another power off that list that can only be slotted by one enhancement 
Thoughts?
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I couldn't agree more.
What if they simply didn't make flight speed scale? What if 3 fly speed SOs gave you the same fly speed as a level 50 character's flight? What if the suppressed version of flight equaled hover with the same number of fly speed enhancers? Furthermore, when suppressed, fly should have it's end cost reduced to that of hover.
Now, how to make hover attractive... Well, other than being available earlier and having no prerequisite, add a resistance to -fly powers to it. Make suppressed fly still have the drift to it as well (to make hover still attractive).
Flight is my favourite travel power, and I am actually fine with the speed. The utility in scouting and moving around is good enough. The problem is Hover.
Om my stalker, I have Air Superiority, Fly for strategic movement and the occasional aerieal attack, but my general combat movements is Hurdle + Combat Jumping. My stalker would be very dead if she had to rely on Hover to get away after a boss strike.
I have a tank, a brute and a scrapper with Hover. For a Fire/Fire tank (burnless) it works great. Being a little slower insures Blazing Aura gets the aggro. For a Energy/Dark brute, it works decently. Death Shroud is less able to hold aggro, so that utility is less. The reason I am not complaining is that I tend to team with a kinetic. But my MA/Regen scrapper is hurting, and hardly gets any play time after ED (she is lvl 46). Without Speed Boost, it is simply a pain to try to be a scrapper with Hover.
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Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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Hehe - I guessed this would happen!
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It's a SHAME it took 4 issues to FINALLY deal with that TERRIBLE, risk vs reward exploit in PvE with the Travel Power Suppression compromise.
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Great post, but is this one sarcasm?
I never understood the claims that jousting gave an advantage in PvE. I did it a few times early on and noticed that they got a melee attack on me just as I got one on them, and they got to hit me at least once per pass with a ranged attack too.
When supression hit, someone said something about people soloing Countess Crey using jousting. What I didn't get was, jousting caused a MASSIVE hit in DPS, to the point that I don't believe anybody that claims they could beat the Countess' health regeneration while doing it. Meanwhile, I soloed her during this period while standing right in front of her, barely beating her health regen with a near constant attack chain.
Can someone explain to me how jousting could be used to give any significant advantage in PvE?
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You could use superspeed to reduce the number of attacks you took, by breaking line of sight and otherwise kiting. You would still take attacks, but you could survive a bit longer if you were able to control the encounter.
Apparently, the ability to control the encounter was too uber.
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You could use superspeed to reduce the number of attacks you took, by breaking line of sight and otherwise kiting. You would still take attacks, but you could survive a bit longer if you were able to control the encounter.
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Strangely enough these are all things that would naturally occur to you if you actual could run at super speeds!
*smacks forehead*
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Apparently, the ability to control the encounter was too uber.
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From the forums I got the impression that with certain mobs you could trick the AI to swap between melee or range attacks or that with some mobs once they went to melee attacks they never went back to ranged.
I never once heard of a problem with travel powers, always with mob AI. So where did they apply the "fix" ?
I still believe travel suppression is the single biggest genre-breaking thing in the game.
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Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
Before ED I used to run Hover with 6 slots.
My flying Defenders and Controllers still use 3 slotted hover for combat but for everyone else I consider it pointless.
I dropped hover from my mains build.
Suggestion:
If they could just work out some code so that purchasing and slotting Hover increased the speed of Suppressed Fly then it might be worth considering again. Currently its a dead power for many of my characters.
Suggestion:
Still waiting for that FLYING MOVE-THROUGH
You know, something like this > Cov Launch Movie
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Flight is my favourite travel power, and I am actually fine with the speed. The utility in scouting and moving around is good enough. The problem is Hover.
Om my stalker, I have Air Superiority, Fly for strategic movement and the occasional aerieal attack, but my general combat movements is Hurdle + Combat Jumping. My stalker would be very dead if she had to rely on Hover to get away after a boss strike.
I have a tank, a brute and a scrapper with Hover. For a Fire/Fire tank (burnless) it works great. Being a little slower insures Blazing Aura gets the aggro. For a Energy/Dark brute, it works decently. Death Shroud is less able to hold aggro, so that utility is less. The reason I am not complaining is that I tend to team with a kinetic. But my MA/Regen scrapper is hurting, and hardly gets any play time after ED (she is lvl 46). Without Speed Boost, it is simply a pain to try to be a scrapper with Hover.
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Both Blazing Aura and Death Shroud are continous PBAoEs that extends quite a bit, right? Does not help much much when all you got are zero-duration melee range attacks, like say for example MA/SR.
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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Any chance you can do the same for Swift? The Stone Armor folks would love that, a chance to get closer to our pre-ED speeds.
If ED affected everything than the other movement speeds should be slower as well, not just hover. Is that the case?
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
Flight: I'll talk to geko about it. No promises. (I got spoiled by the Holiday Jet Pack, too!)
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How about instead of Hover, rename it to Combat Flight and make it as effective as Combat Jumping?
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ED broke that design.
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Gads, how many times have I read that.
They certainly didn't sit down at any point and wonder out loud about how ED would effect each power in the game.
Pips idea of changing the enhancement schedule sounds good.
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Since there does not seem to be any hope that ED will ever go away, I was wondering if there will be any changes to flight enhancements or a buff to flight speed? I think that it is kind of crazy that it is the only travel power that can not reach its top speed without buffs. Also I really miss my 6-slotted hover. If any forum users read this post have you had any pm response concerning any possible change to the flight pool?
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Quite honestly now that the accuarcy is not a issue, and the end drain is the same, and supression slows you down anyway, i personally say flight doesnt just need a combat improvement, its needs improvment as a travel power. It has long been, other then teleport the most costly power in slots with the smallest return. A base progressive speed boost that nets by level 50 about 10 MPH faster would be great. Also maybe knock about a quarter off its cost in end. I dont seem to have the end issues with jumping or speed runnign that i have with flight. Supression was supose to take the combat out of travel powers making them all travel powers again, yet it seems that other then removing the accuracy penelty (which i preffered to supression) it seems all the things that prevented flight from being used exploitively (is that a word even) has remained in the power. its the slowest, and requires more to max it then any other common travel power.
Teleport to me also should be looked at, especially for end cost if not for range.