Devs: Any hope for the flight pool?
By
Aaron123,
Posted on: 2006-01-23 09:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Travel supression was patched in to prevent a tactic called kiting or jousting.
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Nope. From PMs:
Me:
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1.) Am I correct that the purpose of travel power suppression is to inhibit the practice of jousting?
3.) If so, then why is it still possible to joust with Speed Boost and other similiar powers?
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Statesman:
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1. No. They're meant to eliminate issues in PvE.
3. Because jousting wasn't the reason for the change.
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I've heard that before and I don't believe it (Statesman that is, not you). The reason I don't believe it is this:
1) I've not encountered any PvE exploit using travel powers. I am aware of the benefits from Jousting but not anything that could be classed as an exploit.
2) Other Devs (Geko, I think) made posts about fly, super speed etc being Travel powers not combat powers. That was the first we had heard of it and always thought of them as combat powers up till that point. The manual calls the Advanced Movement powers IIRC.
3) There was an awful lot of moaning about jousting in the arenas but no moaning about jousting in PvE.
Now just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean its not there BUT it does make it a rare problem if it exists. If they added suppression just for this rare problem? Well that doesn't seem very sensible. It was and is still very unpopular.
So I am afraid it is my belief that suppression was added to solve the PvP issues and the PvE issues have been used for "spin"
If Jousting is not the issue then the problem must reside in mob AI. Therefore the better solution would be to address mob AI rather than add an extremely unpopular and genre-busting mechanic to movement powers.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Suppression isn't going away - deal with it.
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I am. I am letting the Devs know that I think its an extremely bad game mechanic and they need to come up with something better.
And for the record "X isn't going away - deal with it" has been said about many things (sometimes even by the Devs) that have subsequently gone away or happened.
Things like:
Unyielding Stance
Melee Attacks working on running mobs
Stand alone character generator lol
There are others too, I am sure.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Saying that they are lieing about why they put in suppression isn't likely to get they to change their minds is it?
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Nowhere do I accuse Statesman of being a liar. I think he was vague, and I think the way he and the rest of his crew handled the Travel Power Suppression issue demonstrated amazingly -- and uncharacteristically -- poor communication skills. And I think suppression is very nearly a game-breakingly bad mechanic.
But I don't think that Statesman was being deliberately dishonest. And even if I did, it's not an accusation I would make without some evidence.
I just bring this up because the conventional wisdom on the forums is that suppression was implemented to deal with jousting... inasmuch as you imply it right here:
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Yes Devs didn't do away with Jousting on day 1 but they didn't do away with hearding on day 1 either. That doesn't mean they approved of that either.
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My point is simply that dealing with jousting was apparently not the developers' intent.
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Suppression isn't going away - deal with it.
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And my discontent with suppression isn't going away either. And all that anyone else has to do to "deal with" that is read occasional posts on the issue, which seems to be much less inconvenient then the actual mechanic itself.
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Statesman:
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1. No. They're meant to eliminate issues in PvE.
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Uhm, huh? Issues in PvE? What the hell issues were caused by being able to walk and chew gum at the same time in PvE?
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
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I think a lot of people would like it if it were faster than unslotted sprint with three flight speed SOs.
As for effective at travel, Combat Jumping + Hurdle can already do this to a point. Getting Hover to where it can work about as well shouldn't break anything. Not saying as fast, but it really should be better than sprint, especially with slots invested.
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Would it kill anybody to let swift enhance hover speed, too?
And can we please figure out a way to let teleport get better over levels? flight speeds up, super-jump speeds up, super-speed speeds up... Teleport animates at the same speed, goes the same range, and costs the same for a level 14 as it does for a level 50. Scaling animation time isn't going to happen, but can we please get natural range increases or an endurance discount?
Well, My idea to better equalize all the travel powers went thus:
1. Change Sprint to +spd instead of specifically +run and +jump.
2. Change Swift to +Spd.
3. Change Hurdle to Perfect Vision: +perception, +range
4. Increase Hover to base walking speed---seriously, this should not be a self infliced debuff.
Thus all travel powers have the same amount of advantages. Teleport is worthy of it's own fitness power because to do it you also have to increase every other ranged power with it.
As an aside, I'd also change health to be Health+Stamina with endurance drain resist. The final fitness power could be a self rez or Discipline: Mag 3ish resist vs sleep, hold, stun, confuse.
I'd really like to see the base movement speed for Hover get a boost, about 20-25%.
Also, it would be good if movement speed buff powers like Swift affected Fly speed; they already affect Hover speed. That, the boost to Hover base speed and a bump to the Fly speed cap and all would be good for the pool.
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Travel supression was patched in to prevent a tactic called kiting or jousting.
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Nope. From PMs:
Me:
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1.) Am I correct that the purpose of travel power suppression is to inhibit the practice of jousting?
3.) If so, then why is it still possible to joust with Speed Boost and other similiar powers?
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Statesman:
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1. No. They're meant to eliminate issues in PvE.
3. Because jousting wasn't the reason for the change.
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What reasons in PVE? What is travel power suppression intended to prevent?
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I'd be happy if hover was as fast as normal walking speed. That is comparable to the unenhanced speed on CJ.
Hover is just painfully slow to use in combat, especially for a melee character. The Ranged ATs can somewhat make due with the slowness depending on their specific mix on short and long range powers, but it just kills a melee-centric toon.
You spend the entire fight just trying to get into range. Isn't using it in combat the entire point of hover?
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What reasons in PVE? What is travel power suppression intended to prevent?
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I wish I knew. I'd PM States to ask him, but I'm worried that all it would do at this stage is get me on his ignore list.
I was playing my level 19 empathy defender (with fly, 3 slotted all end redux) the other day, and was OUTRUN by a level 13 toon with nothing but sprint. I don't even think he had swift at that point, though I may be wrong about that.
Either way, having level 19 with a travel power, being outrun by a level 13 without, is completely rediculous. I haven't tested it, but it seems to me that this would mean that 3 slot swift +3 slot sprint would likely be faster than fly as a viable travel power (except for the lack of verical movement) AND save you 2 power choice options.
I really hope the devs do something about flight speeds, as it is apparent from the numerous posts that it is more than a couple of people that think there is an issue involved.
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Travel supression was patched in to prevent a tactic called kiting or jousting.
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Nope. From PMs:
Me:
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1.) Am I correct that the purpose of travel power suppression is to inhibit the practice of jousting?
3.) If so, then why is it still possible to joust with Speed Boost and other similiar powers?
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Statesman:
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1. No. They're meant to eliminate issues in PvE.
3. Because jousting wasn't the reason for the change.
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Statesman is lying to you in private messages then.
According to a post called "patch not explanations" posted 4-28-05 statesman had this to say about the initial planned change to add the -acc to speed and jumping:
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o Added 50% ToHit debuff to Super Speed and Super Leap. PvP/PvE
There was an inherent unfairness with the Travel powers; only Flight had a -50% ToHit debuff. Yet Super Speed and Super Leap could create situations similar to hover snipe (i.e. flying above a mob and firing away) where they could fight at little to no risk.
Example: click on Super Speed, run up to mob, attack, run away. Rinse and repeat.
Super Leap already has a toggle that was always intended for battle situations (Combat Leaping) and Super Speed has Hasten (which gives not only a defensive buff, but also an incredibly powerful –recharge).
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I guess its not outrightly lying since the explanation does infact deal with PVE issues. Issues they didnt care less about UNTIL the arenas hit the test server. I have no idea when you started playing the game. but i think many that played during that time frame will remember that at that time, the Devs took alot of heat for changes that resulted in PVP nerfs or buffs, that bled over to PVE also. Almost every explanation at the time was a "never intended" kinda of explanation, and im sorry as quickly as they through on the -acc and supression when people hated the -acc, this is something that could have been fixed at ANY time in the previous year of release. I dont find it to be chance that it was not until PVPs introduction it became an issue.
I also dont know your gaming experience, but many FPS games end up dealing with issues or Kiting, bunny hopping etc after release due to exploitation by the players. The first call of duty had to implement a supression to jumping. You would go on a ton of servers and just see 30 dudes running through a feild hopping around like idiots cause of how hard it became to hit them.
Supression was introduced after the -acc becaue the devs saw the ability to que attacks from range and then run or jump through the attack range to trigger the attack, by the time the animation was started you were a substanial distance again from the enemy. This was multiplied to be even worse in PVP, when it could be done with many of the scrapper and melee powers best attacks.
Yes it can in fact still be done, sorta. You can pull it off really 1 time effectively, but the supression slows you down from just being a all out gank fest with travel powers. I dont like supression i liked the -acc better, but many people complained about it.
Over all it was introduced i guess to stop what i said it was, the devs will maintain that was in PVE, i personally say then why not a fix for over a year, even through the COH beta where this was being done. UNTIL it became a PVP issue as well.
But over all the very issue he describes in the patch notes, is basicly jousting, kiting, whatever you want to call it, but its triggering attacks in greater safety by using the travel powers to combat advantage when combined with the game mechanics.
Mark me down as a voice requesting a flight increase to Hover at least. I used to 4 slot it. That was about all the speed I wanted....so I'm not too greedy. It crawls now...and kinda sucks a little.
I took it on my Scrapper too and discovered it is almost useless in combat since you don't close to melee distance when you use "follow" with Hover on. I'm not sure why this is. Seems kinda underpowered. It's slower than sprint AND won't close to melee? Wow...
Seems a waste that we have more slots to play with now...and we can't use them to play with in travel powers like we used to wish we could. (I wanted to put multiple slots in fly and Hover...but couldn't really spare them.)
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
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It would be nice if you could use it in fights to keep up with your team mates and pursue mobs, also when you are a meleeist.
Why should aerial combat be the exclusive domain of those with ranged attacks? Those with melee attacks wants to be able to use some kind of "combat flight" too... 
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Which is why I wonder why you can't close to melee using "follow" with Hover on. It makes the power useless for Scrappers.
well i guess that answered my question fast. Thank for the hover info. My dang defender is resting peaceful in the hive since HOs not so good no more. bah. Moment of silence to all our retired heroes.........
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Hover: We might buff it some, at some point. However, it should never be an effective travel power.
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3 flight speed SOs should make it faster than unslotted sprint + swift.
Or perhaps let swift affect hover speed so 3 flight speed SOs + swift is faster than sprint + swift.
One more vote for extra flight speed.
I don't mind leaving Hover as it is. You're hovering, not flying. Pre-ED, some people were six-slotting Hover to fly around, bypassing the need to take Fly as a travel power. That wasn't right.
That being said, an extra speed boost on fly would be appropriate. That and the possibility to use Super Speed with Fly for those speed freaks out there.
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One more vote for extra flight speed.
I don't mind leaving Hover as it is. You're hovering, not flying. Pre-ED, some people were six-slotting Hover to fly around, bypassing the need to take Fly as a travel power. That wasn't right.
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It didn't really bypass the need to take fly as a travel power. Hover's base speed is way too slow.
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I think the point brought up is, (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that modifying flight's suppressed speed or it's overall end use would render hover obsolete. Other than getting it earlier, why would you take it?
I think hover's speed should be upped and fly's end cost lowered a decent amount. Fly's speed shouldn't be too great, otherwise why take any of the other travel powers? Maybe up fly and hover's base speeds so they meet their old max speeds when you had 6-slotted them.
Like I said before, I don't think an increased speed to Hover would break the power either. Maybe back when you could 6-slot it with flight speed, and it made it almost as fast as an unslotted fly, that was a reason to keep the base speed of Hover as slow as it is.
However, now in this ED world, things like that were what it was designed to "correct," I think a number of the base numbers of powers (including movement speeds- keeping it on topic) should be revisited based on the new paradigm.
With ED in effect, Hover can be faster without being a threat to Fly, or as a desireable alternative to an actual "travel" power. I would just like it to be effective as a "movement" power.
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I couldn't agree more.
Hover has a number of advantages that Flight just doesnt have. No Movement Supression, Low Endurance usage, quick short stop which allows for quick use of interuptable powers, high manuverablity and control, and the lower speed can be more useful than high speed all the time as there is not throttle control, Hover makes an extremely good tight quarters combat movement power and with 6 slots Pre-ED good for tactical movement on mission maps and keeping up with teams and being able to retreat without changing movement modes. However, Hover's speed has always been extremely slow, which is why Pre-ED it was 6 slotted alot, and even people who 6-slotted it still took Flight for more speed. Boosting Hover's base speed would not be bad if done reasonably because it still would not be in competition with other movement powers. Boosting Flight's speed could be done as it is much slower than even Super Jump which is actually the 2nd slowest major travel power in the game. ED impacted Flight a bit too as it took a 4 slots to truely max the speed out, though 3 slots gave you the majority of the speed with a small remainder left. Given that Flight's speed cap is at 54 mph and Super Jump is at 74 mph with Super Speed at 84 mph, I would say that adding an extra 10 mph to the cap would not be outrageous to Flight as well as changing it so that you can max out Flight with only 3 SO's as there are no other speed boosters for Flight like Swift, Hurdle, and Sprint for Super Jump and Super Speed.
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It's a SHAME it took 4 issues to FINALLY deal with that TERRIBLE, risk vs reward exploit in PvE with the Travel Power Suppression compromise.
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Great post, but is this one sarcasm?
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Yes, it was. 
I don't buy the arguments that suppression wasn't for PvP either. Many PvE changes were made that dealt with snipes, like giving MOBs huge range boosts on their ranged attacks, increasing aggro duration, etc. Those are the sorts of fixes that make jousting/sniping difficult enough to cease being worthwhile. Suppression in PvE is simply overkill.
I can see why Suppression is needed in PvP. Melee classes wouldn't stand a chance in PvP without some form of reduction in travel power effectiveness. But PvE? I can't see it.
Just to add my voice to the chorus...
I think a minor speed boost in hover would make the power tremendously more FUN without breaking it or harming flight in any way. having to drop down and sprint to catch a pve runner because hover is so slow and suppressed flight is slower is frustrating.
also, flight's speed compared to the other travel powers is a little embarassing...
Suppression isn't going away - deal with it.
Yes Devs didn't do away with Jousting on day 1 but they didn't do away with hearding on day 1 either. That doesn't mean they approved of that either. Sometimes they step on things very quickly sometimes very deliberately. How they decide which is only known to them.
Saying that they are lieing about why they put in suppression isn't likely to get they to change their minds is it?
Personally I don't see the big problem with supression. It ends so fast I barely notice it even when I am badge hunting greys.
I do see the problem with END usage on Fly and Teleport now that Stamina has been reduced via ED. Attacks were reduced in END usage but these powers also needed to have the same reduction to keep them in line. (or if they were reduced it certainly wasn't enough)
As far as changing the enhancement schedules for Fly and Hover that sounds like a plan to me. I think there are a number of Powers that could use that sort of love though. Some of the PP defensive powers could use the same thing.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.